[Mil] How do we separate strong-defense for Y2K vs. impending-offense for M.Law?

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I was reading the miles-long thread about military training exercises in Texas, written reports about Y2K drills, other drills, but it was SO long I figured I'd better start a new thread (since this is a slightly different take on it anyway than that direction).

I have a question. I'm serious here, so before somebody reaches down my throat to rip out my lungs for being too Polly about it, consider that this is a real issue with a bigger scope than our mutual paranoia about the US Gov't.

Where do you separate the need -- the NEED mind you -- for a strong military, for a military who takes Y2K seriously and does training exercises, for a military who has to do those exercises SOMEWHERE after all, from a men-in-black urban-assault bad-guy government-minion takeover party?

That's one question. Diane's thread actually had a second issue that got all mixed up with the first one:

A troop does a SMALL practice, at night once most people are in bed, over a town. Nobody is hurt. There is no proof private property was damaged. It was done with the knowledge and/or assistance of the local authorities. And someone actually made some comment about how the individuals involved probably couldn't be prosecuted. What are we talking about here? Who should be prosecuted for what? You can't prosecute any soldier for doing what they're told. And why SHOULDN'T they be able to do a training exercise? Local SWAT teams do training exercises too, is that equally bad?

Would it better if the training exercises took place in some foreign country that took a tiny troop's exercise far more personally than we would? Would it be better if our soldiers who desperately need real-world training learned from books and movies and then got tossed into real-world situations?

The internet has an unbelievable amount of BS that gets accepted as such. I have repeatedly heard this phrase, in regards to these kinds of exercises (though the same few stories get repeatedly sent around as if there have been thousands of them), and here it is attached to the latest round:

"Martial law has been declared through presidential powers and war powers act, and some citizens have refused to give up their weapons. They have taken over two of the buildings in [Kingsville]. The police cannot handle it. So you call these guys in. They show up and they zap everybody, take all the weapons, and let the local P.D. clean it up," described Sanchez of the scenario the Knight Stalkers were likely given."

Nowhere in that above paragraph was a fact provided. NONE! Propaganda. That was entirely supposition, but so creatively presented as to sound almost legitimate if you weren't reading closely.

Now. I may not be fond of Big Unk but I sure don't want to speak Chinese. I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that no matter what goes on at home, and no matter what got usurped from the inside via paper here at home, the rest of the world is rightfully really pissed off at the USA for what amounts to Truly Evil Empire behavior planet-wide for many decades now. I don't disagree with the reasoning but I would still fight for my country if it were necessary.

I don't think anybody sane should underestimate the importance of having a well armed, well alert, well trained, and well tested military for the Y2K-event and afterward. We will be, in short, more vulnerable than we have been in a good century, thanks to our DOD dismal compliance status, thanks to potential problems in both our own and worldwide weapons, and more. This is serious.

And I look at Y2K, at China's recent technology developments (thanks Bill!), at China's current events with prepping their media against the USA, supporting Serbia, Iraq is still a problem and still being bombed mind you (and they're working with Serbia too, what is that about friends being those with mutual enemies?), and don't forget Libya (these guys have grudges the length of superstrings), and there's more.

I don't trust the military command, but the military in-face are our sons, fathers and brothers. Well, I guess our sisters, mothers and daughters now too. I am not going to treat them like bad guys just because they're in uniform. These guys will put their lives on the line to save our asses if it comes to that, and just because in today's world they get sent out to bomb people and fight private-hidden wars doesn't mean that they don't deserve the respect that in my opinion, all soldiers should be given by people of their own country.

I agree completely that the federal government was literally usurped by a hostile power, gradually and from the inside, and that the recent executive orders spell something very close to D-O-O-M for life as we know it, and that the military would be used to secure martial law, totalitarianism, etc. etc. (those executive orders make whoever is sitting in the white house a dictator, essentially -- read them).

So it's not that I'm naive about the impending future inside our country. It's just that I am equally concerned about the impending future related to parties and interests outside our country.

I see Y2K-related tests written about the military and I think, "THANK GOD!" I mean, wouldn't it be pretty scary if our military was SO DENSE that they endangered our entire nation by not preparing at all?!

PJ in TX

Oh yeah. There was yet a third issue all wrapped up in that long previous thread: the Search & Rescue thing -- USING CIVILIANS. Two things that bugged me about that: Read carefully. (1) It indicates that people could be conscripted, trained, tested, sent somewhere, and would not receive any form of compensation until the "officially official activity" began. That really IS conscription, hoo-boy! (2) It then refers to the US&R troops as being... something like, owned by the feds. Does that mean *I* become gov't property (like I'm not already!) if I got conscripted?!

The day I had the bright idea of getting a ham license, I had nightmares 3 nights running about guys in dark uniforms who came and took me away to make me work for them doing morse comm. Pretty funny huh. I must be more paranoid than I realize. that US&R stuff makes getting a General Ham License sound like a risky idea -- er -- maybe I'll use a very distant address for that application. :-)

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 15, 1999

Answers

PJ what a sensible post. I too prefer a well trained, military to the untrained, unprepared military. True the military and police don't always do exactly the right thing, but your words, "I don't want to speak Chinese" hit a nerve with me. Years ago I read a book by John Hersey, fiction of course, about the Chinese invading the U.S. and marching people to Arizona, then sending some to live in China, andI've never forgotten my fear. I think it was "The White Lotus."

Anyway, as I said in an old post, some people are so paranoid they accuse the government of spending all their time conjuring up ways to herd us into camps. I'm mortified to say I worried about this for all of 24 hours and even posted a thread about it. Some of the sane jumped in and assured me this was not the case; then my good sense returned and I felt like a fool. And any fool knows that government is motivated by the rule of self-interest: Get Re-elected.

The U. S. has many problems; in my opinion, too many people all wanting their personal agendas to be the top priority. But this is still the best country in the world for freedom, even if we are taxed for it, from the toilet paper we use every day, to the foreign nonwars we have to pay for, and seem so eager to jump into.

But, Americans are the most individual, contankerous, balky, in your face, freedom loving creatures in the world and they will never bow their heads meekly and march to a camp. Besides the logistics of that foolish idea is quite beyond the scope of reality. This is not a country the size of Connecticut.

One thing about the Net, you can post any garbage you want, and someone will buy into it, whether or not there's a word of truth in it. Maybe they were left too long in dark rooms, by themselves, when they were children, and have a built in fear.

I personally applaud your great good sense. I go by Lincoln's words, "United we stand, divided we fall."

Hunter S. Thompson said, " When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." This seems to be the case about Y2K.

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), April 15, 1999.


Agree with both of you. Hardliner, where are you? Greybear? It's not that perfidy internally by our government is impossible (PJ, you've already dealt with that), but successfully policing 240M Americans ESPECIALLY in Y2K meltdown, with 200M (?) weapons out there and ammo plus American spirit (per Gilda) is implausible even if "they" wanted to. Better yet, why bother?

Ya know, here is a case where the infamous INVAR and the persnickety Gilda (and me) would be fighting on the same side AGAINST tyranny. If DeeCee (Democrat and Republicrat) doesn't get that, they're fully insane. (Separate thread: it's why there is actually a lot more unity on this forum under the covers than the mutual ranting implies).

I'm a fearer of NWO with the best of them, but there are better ways to accomplish that, alas, than internal martial law.

Not least (again as per PJ), the military are boys, girls from our home towns. Yes, "obey no matter what" plays a role, but only a role. I would be much more concerned if Clinton AND the military were buddy- buddy, but the opposite is true, thankfully.

The place for fear and paranoia, boys and girls, is over the international situation over the next two-three years. Whatever one thinks of Kosovo (my opinion already expressed elsewhere), let's hope the DOD is ready enough and/or clever enough to disinform.

We do have some REAL enemies out there.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), April 15, 1999.


I guess I always knew ...but oh so predictable. Still, thanks for putting the bait out PJ. Let's see what else the thread flushes out.

-- Tickle (Tickle_yer_fancy@hotmail.com), April 15, 1999.

My answer is all of the above!! However, if it gets bad in the cities, or if the "hoards" come out into the country, we will be SCREAMING for Martial Law. Its a two sided sword.

-- Taz (Tassie@aol.com), April 15, 1999.

PJ,

Thanks for the post. From what I have read lately, I don't think we are going to have to worry about it much. The events in Kosovo are keeping the DoD from finishing their Y2K projects. Our military is so busy right now they are not going to be prepared for Y2K in any fashion unless the Kosovo affair ends quickly. I read a quote from a Senator yesterday (can't remember his name but it starts with an "I") that stated "if the American people knew how thin our defenses are, there would be hysteria in the streets".

-- Sharon (sking@drought-ridden.com), April 15, 1999.



"Infamous" yet huh? I sure wish the rest of America would wake up to what's happening to them.

Sharon, the Senator was James Inhoffe (R). You should have heard his questions in the Senate Armed Services Committee hearing this morning with Joint Chief Sheldon and SD Cohen. CNN carried it live up until the point Senator Inhoff started naming White House officials that were contradicting EVERYTHING Clinton has been telling us about WHY we're in Kosovo, and about the use of ground troops. Then CNN got word from the WH to kill the feed and go back to a tape of the convoy disaster covered ad nauseum all morning long.

A startling revelation from Cmmdr. Sheldon was about Russian troops engaging NATO forces near Bosnia in small skirmishes. No other details were provided and NO follow-up questions asked by any senator.

We are witnessing the beginning of a conflict that will soon put our whole existance as a nation in jeopardy.

And Clinton will have brought us to complete ruin.

But Americans don't care. Things are good. Look at the Dow.

They don't care.

But they will...they soon will.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), April 15, 1999.


How thin our defenses are eh. Maybe it's just that in some cases there is no real defense.

I have a close friend who spent 14 years working for the NSA and a lifetime working for one agency or another (after a couple tours in Vietnam). Although he's honest with me when he can be, he always tries to be very optimistic, because he knows I'm neurotically a worrier at heart. So what he says, he puts a bit mildly, and always tries to be upbeat and reassure me everything's fine. Until recently. I happened to amention I'd read some on nuclear issues and China and then wished I hadn't. His response: The real story about nuclear plants and nuclear weapons is not publically known and thank god for that. If people knew they'd have committed suicide a long long time ago. Take whatever you think is the worst scenario and then multiply by three. That would be close. But nothing you will do will effect the problem one way or the other. So, put it out of your mind and live life in the now. This from the guy who's always trying to make me feel better. I also mentioned I'd read about water supplies (re: chemicals/toxic) and the medical probabilities for post-Y2K. He said, "See the above two points" in response.

Another time I asked him what he thought about the world and Y2K. He said that there are so many variables, and so much will actually depend on management and sheer good luck, that there is really no way to predict much of anything -- we can predict types of problems but not where or how (or in many cases even when) or to what degree. Though he did volunteer, that "as a whole" (meaning, it may suck for individual communities, but for the country as a unit) "We will survive however, hopefully without any major crises. We don't need to talk about overseas. They're sucking wind." Sigh! And he used to make me feel better. Lately I feel worse. :-)

We'll see, I guess.

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 15, 1999.


I forgot to mention one thing. Though he's normally more objective and unbiased than anyone I know, he apparently has opinions about a related issue. I wrote him in an email recently:
> (I won't even START on the warfare, nuke, etc. issues. I only have
> so much room for stress and I can't affect that, so why worry.)
To which he responded:
No need to address that. With what Clinton has sold out to the Chinese on over the past six years, it's all a foregone problem anyway. You don't want to know. Gadzooks. I really don't! PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 15, 1999.

PJ in Tx

I don't believe that any intelligent person would argue that our troops should not be trained to handle conflicts, whether domestic or international.

HOWEVER...That is why they have training facilities for every imaginable scenario...they have complete setups of towns in which to do these, (in your own words) "SMALL" practices. The drills that are being practiced in our towns are for the purpose of conditioning American citizens. See how complacent you have become in accepting these unexpected and outrageous drills? The citizens were not warned! One of the drills took place very close to a home for elderly people who were FRIGHTENED to death. Many actually hid under their beds. And you think this is acceptable? They thought our country was being invaded by foreign troops. What if some one had tried to retaliate? I suppose a few civillian deaths wouldn't matter...after all, you've got to break a few eggs, right?

The same condition and response tactic is being used on our children with the increasing "visits" to the schools by black helicopters and soldiers.

It isn't paranoia, PJ...it is the same tactics that have been used in history by the Germans and Russians (as well as others).

What are you referring to as being propaganda in the remarks made by Mr. Sanchez about the Kingsville invasion? I have heard live interviews by him. He is ex-military that now works for FEMA. He had much more to report than the small quote you included. I realize that what we usually get in the mainstream news is not the full picture. Usually it has just enough of "some" of the truth, that what is left out or altered is not questioned or verified. You can probably find a full recount at www.infowars.com

As for our "boys" defending our *sses, I have heard many live reports from military guys from Ft. Hood...and they are very concerned about what they may be asked to do and what is expected from them "in the name of" martial law. They have said that they know a considerable percentage of the soldiers who will carry out orders, that they themselves consider unconstitutional, unAmerican, and downright frightening.

REMEMBER WACO! Those soldiers were "just following orders".

Don't let the diversions of what is happening over-seas discount what is blatantly happening in front of our own faces. We probably have more foreign troops on our soil than our own! Won't that make it convenient for the U.N. to take control.

No Flames...just a difference in perspective.

Texas Terri

BTW...my father was killed in the Korean "Conflict" at the age of 19 (yes, my mother was very young). I have the utmost respect for any patriot who DEFENDS OUR CONSTITUTION...and for those who gave their lives. Hopefully, with the right kind of leadership, it won't all be in vain...but, anyone that is a proponent of the NWO may as well be spitting on our dead soldiers' graves!

-- Texas Terri (DeepInTheHeart@Texas.com), April 15, 1999.


As someone who has spent much time in said training facilities, I can assure you that the layout gets memorized very quickly. When it's no longer new and unpredictable, the training value drops dramatically. The uncertainty of varied training environments is worth it's weight in gold -at either pre OR post Y2K prices.

Stop flipping out. If the mutants come a squad of marines will be most welcome, even if they are wearing black and arrived via black helicopter. If the mutants don't come the troops will have plenty of other things to keep them occupied.

-- Lurking (aware@unafraid.com), April 15, 1999.



Has anyone heard any further info concerning what INVAR posted above, re: Russians engaging NATO forces near Bosnia?

BR

-- brother rat (rldabney@usa.net), April 15, 1999.


INVAR wrote: James Inhoffe (R). You should have heard his questions in the Senate Armed Services Committee hearing this morning with Joint Chief Sheldon and SD Cohen. CNN carried it live up until the point Senator Inhoff started naming White House officials that were contradicting EVERYTHING Clinton has been telling us about WHY we're in Kosovo, and about the use of ground troops. ...[snip]... A startling revelation from Cmmdr. Sheldon was about Russian troops engaging NATO forces near Bosnia in small skirmishes. No other details were provided and NO follow-up questions asked by any senator.

That's interesting. I am far more inclined to believe something I see happening in the House on CNN than something I hear about 'in general' on the internet. Not good news. I knew we'd be here though. It's only going to escalate. It's easy to fortell these things. As I say, the news tells you less about what has happened or is happening than it does what's going to happen. The question is never "is this real?" but "why would they want me to think this?" It's China I'm pretty darn worried about right now... anyway.

I don't understand why the others in NATO would back this if it was just some wild idea of Clinton's to distract everybody from the fact that he sold the means/ability to kill America to an enemy. And what seems like the active INTENT to get us into WWIII is pretty baffling to me. I would like to keep up with some degree of the this topic, and also the Clinton treason subject, but I turn on the TV (in my extra 2.7 minutes per day) and get the same spoon-fed stories over and over and it seems like, never any REAL data.

One of my comments about the earlier thread is that multiple topics got mixed up as if there were no difference between any of them. A Y2K prep test, a secret 'training' test, the truth about Kosovo, etc. The war issue could stand on its own. It confuses me (frankly) to try and mix other issues, such as Y2K preparation for defense, and the potential martial law/seizure plans of the gov't, all in the same paragraphs. Perhaps they really are related. But to me they are separate topics. That was part of my point (see thread title): how do we separate things that are legitimate, reasonaable, and for the safety of our country, from the things that are not legitimate or reasonable, and risk the safety of our own people?

Texas Terri wrote: The drills that are being practiced in our towns are for the purpose of conditioning American citizens. See how complacent you have become in accepting these unexpected and outrageous drills? The citizens were not warned! One of the drills took place very close to a home for elderly people who were FRIGHTENED to death. Many actually hid under their beds. And you think this is acceptable? They thought our country was being invaded by foreign troops. What if some one had tried to retaliate? I suppose a few civillian deaths wouldn't matter...after all, you've got to break a few eggs, right? ... The same condition and response tactic is being used on our children with the increasing "visits" to the schools by black helicopters and soldiers.

Now, this is a different perspective on it I hadn't thought of. Conditioning certainly does play a role in the development of anything new. (I was just about to say, "They [the drills] are almost never heard of, wouldn't be known but for the internet, and probably happen only in smaller towns, so that wouldn't work as conditioning on a large scale." Then I remembered hearing press releases about how 51 major cities were hosting training to combat 'urban terrorism' or something like that. So much for that argument.)

But in rereading your paragraph I'm thinking, so the crime isn't the drills, the crime is that they didn't tell the people about it ahead of time. I would have to agree that if civ's are NOT told, they should have the open right to go shoot the assumed invaders, and if they got shot in response there should be hell to pay from that end. Not like that will ever fly of course, but in a perfect world it's a nice idea.

Only one problem: that it is 'conditioning' is an opinion, a conclusion. There may be legitimate reasons for the in-country training that does not include such nefarious schemes. (Or there may not, I realize.) I agree it COULD be. I agree that even if it's not it could be used as such, or used as test-grounds for studying population response as well as the actual soldier training.

I confess, I read stuff like Clinton's executive orders, and everything I see around me looks like the beginning of the very end. Pull away for awhile and it all seems hard to believe. Maybe, like Y2K, the future is so different it requires a suspension of disbelief to be able to process it at all.

It isn't paranoia, PJ...it is the same tactics that have been used in history by the Germans and Russians (as well as others).

I guess I'm not familiar with the literature on that particular method being employed.

What are you referring to as being propaganda in the remarks made by Mr. Sanchez about the Kingsville invasion? I have heard live interviews by him. He is ex- military that now works for FEMA.

Not by him, just 'with' him. I was inferring that the journalist quoting what Sanchez THOUGHT was "probably" the "assigned motive" for the tests, and presenting it kind of as if that really WAS the case when there is *no proof* of that, is a 'spin' without substance. So, he was in the military and works for FEMA. That doesn't mean I believe at face value anybody who was ever in the military (even of rank) or who works for FEMA. I'm not saying that Sanchez is lying or confused, I'm just saying that "just because someone says so" is not necessarily enough reason to just believe it.

As for our "boys" defending our *sses, I have heard many live reports from military guys from Ft. Hood...and they are very concerned about what they may be asked to do and what is expected from them "in the name of" martial law. They have said that they know a considerable percentage of the soldiers who will carry out orders, that they themselves consider unconstitutional, unAmerican, and downright frightening.

If they don't, someone else will. Better our people in uniform around us than someone else's people. Not that ANYBODY policing us is good, of course! I agree it's inevitable.

It hasn't happened yet. I would not normally be Polly enough to point this out, but you see, my grandmother is a conservative american-fundie (as I call it) and she exposed me to a lot of this amazing kind of info many years ago. And it seemed real, probably was, and I believed her. But the martial law that we actually expected many years ago.... never happened. Yet. I also read a lot about the Larsen Ice Shelf in like, '91-'92 and thought they'd be history by now (and much of coastline too), but that hasn't happened.

In other words, it's all perfectly believable to me. It fits right in with my own belief system. But that's why I've come to distrust it. Because I have believed this stuff before, and been sure that ANY DAY NOW this would all come to be, and it never has. Now I am getting al ittle cynical.

REMEMBER WACO! Those soldiers were "just following orders".

I agree. That's what soldiers do.

Don't let the diversions of what is happening over-seas discount what is blatantly happening in front of our own faces..

You're right, that -- and Y2K -- may only be adding to confusion or distraction.

We probably have more foreign troops on our soil than our own!

Not unless there are a good million+ of them.

Won't that make it convenient for the U.N. to take control.

UN? I haven't thought about them being the danger. According to the executive orders, on one command every single object, property, person, business, utility, etc. etc. in the country becomes the property of FEMA, and FEMA is directly under the control of the President.

I always wondered if the mass, involuntary inoculation of soldiers (the vaccine that appears to have caused or contributed to the horrifying 'gulf war syndrome') if they were being vaccinated against something that would happen eventually here... not anywhere else. Funny that we should just happen to have the vaccine to a supposedly secret, enemy's drug, on hand. But that's my paranoia and I don't think about that anymore.

No Flames...just a difference in perspective.

I am never offended at people being honest. Thanks for your thoughts.

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 16, 1999.


darn it. italics off. PJ

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 16, 1999.

another try.

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 16, 1999.

someone else will have to do it I guess. the typical triangle-bracket /i triangle- bracket doesn't seem to be doing it. Sorry.

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 16, 1999.


PJ,

"I have a close friend who spent 14 years working for the NSA and a lifetime working for one agency or another (after a couple tours in Vietnam). Although he's honest with me when he can be..."

This is a few times you've let us know about your friend and his thoughts. I find them quite chilling. Fits in with a few things I've heard from other sources too.

please keep your tid bits coming.

Later,

Andy

PS

You DO realise all, that this is OFF TOPIC tm No Spam (all rights reserved) - (patent pending etc.)...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 16, 1999.


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