Here is a glimpse of life today:

http://www.americanpatrol.com/CRIME/NEWMEXICO/gangrapecoolparty041199.html

Imagine how it will be if Y2K is bad, or when the SW USA becomes the "American Kosovo"...

-- oracle (oracle@usa.future), April 14, 1999

Answers

Very disturbing. But in a country where a man who dedicates his life to easing the pain of the terminally ill is imprisoned for murder, while another who slit the throats of an innocent young man and woman not only gets off scott free, but is now making TV commercials for lawyers....it's not surprising.

-- a (a@a.a), April 14, 1999.

Exactly a@a! I was so mad at that fool judge when she said to Dr. K. "consider yourself stomped," I could have spit. Hateful, sanctimonioius bitch. If a person doesn't have the right to control their own body, then they have no rights at all.

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), April 14, 1999.

Yeah...I bet Leska's pissed...

-- a (a@a.a), April 14, 1999.

very disturbing...hate to tell my wife and daughter..but I certainly will. I watched in disbelief during the Rodney King trial in LA years ago. Are things simmering? Better believe it. the percentage of cool heads are few. The masses will go nuts....Infomagic and the like are not wierd, they are only examining openly REAL possibilities. And remember...the Bible talks of a Great Tribulation. Will what is happening now trigger it? Are we that close? What do you all think? I'm really leaning to this being a wierd and bad year....

-- rick shade (Rickoshade@aol.com), April 14, 1999.

a, why do you think I'd be upset? ??? I don't understand your assumption. Oh well.

Just read Kevorkian is already on a hunger strike. He's already thin. He may be able to commit his own suicide now; the prison just announced it will not force feed him.

If he does starve himself to death, he will go down walking his talk.

We have watched death by hunger & thirst many times.

Life seems so absurd now that we aren't angry at too much. It is like watching the end of an era, American life, come hurtling at slow motion. So much suspended ... surreal ... ironic ... detached.

Ashton & Leska in Cascadia

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-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), April 15, 1999.

"Very disturbing. But in a country where a man who dedicates his life to easing the pain of the terminally ill is imprisoned for murder"...

FYI some of the people Dr Death "helped" included a woman with chronic pelvic pain, not exactly a terminal disease, a guy with "cancer" who at autopsy had none, and another with "MS" found to have no evidence of same at autopsy. Not to mention all the cases of clinical depression that might have felt better with a little Prozac.

Maybe some provision for assisted suicide is a topic whose time has come, with proper safeguards and some kind of standards. BUT most people with terminal illness fear the pain more then anything else and the vast majority CAN be comfortable with aggresive medication. But Jack was a sloppy psychopath, an embarisment to the medical profession and I'm glad he finally pushed a jury too far.

An ER Doc

-- kozak (kozak@formerusaf.guv), April 15, 1999.

ER Doc: In this country, we execute people by electrocuting them sitting in a chair, shooting them through the heart with rifles, injecting them with poisons, and hanging them until their necks break. Some of the condemned are not even guilty of the crimes with which they have been charged. But yet it is a crime for me to end my own life? What right does the State have to legislate these things? Are they God?

You may have seen some folks slip away in your ER, but I watched my father die of lung cancer. Big difference. Jack Kevorkian did what no other MD would do, stand up for the rights of the terminally ill. How he did it may not have been perfect, but it wins hands down over your precious AMA's feeble approach.

-- a (a@a.a), April 15, 1999.

I attribute my good health to staying as far away as possible from doctors and hospitals. Doctors are more concerned with covering their asses than easing pain, or providing a painless release from a life that has lost all quality. I do not fear death. I only fear doctors.

Mr. ER Doc, just because a person doesn't have cancer, or any other terminal illness, doesn't mean that you are a God who has the right to keep them alive against their wishes. Yes I've read all about the benefit of Prozac for depression. Prozac, cholesterol lowering drugs, Premarin, etc., etc., etc., are the biggest money makers on the market for doctors, and the first two are among the "10 worst medicines." I lowered my own cholesterol with alternative medicine at a smaller cost and without dangerous drugs. Prozac has made my best friend into a "Be happy, Don't worry," clone of some kind.

I admire Dr. Kevorkian more than any doctor I know. My husband's former wife died an excruciating death, because callous doctors kept her alive in their brillianat, collective wisdom that they knew best. It still bothers him. We have both made our own plans to not get under doctor or hospital control at the end. In fact, I'm writing Dr. K today to offer my support for his appeal.

I swear I've considered having "NO CODE" tattooed on my chest to keep some medical idiot from keeping me alive while they wring the last dime out of my insurance company, or in the case of my husband, insurance and Medi-Care.

I have a very good friend, now a bone specialist, who was in medical school when I was young and in college. When I asked him why doctors were so unfeeling, he said, "The first thing you learn in med school is to check your feelings and your brain at the door."

Dr. Oliver Wendell Holmes said in a Lecture at Harvard Medical School, "I firmly believe that if the whole materia medica could be sunk to the bottom of the sea, it would be all the better for mankind and all the worse for the fishes."

If a person has no control over their own body, then they have control over nothing.

-- Jean Scott (dezane@hotmail.com), April 15, 1999.

Folks, I don't know what happened here, but the above post is by me: GILDA JESSIE. I once used the above address on a site that is not longer on the web.

I want to make sure that anyone that reads this knows it's me not a new person. Help??

-- Jean Scott (dezane@hotmail.com), April 15, 1999.

Hi all, Has anyone considered the fact Dr K may be a serial killer using the medical profession to get his high????? Seems to me he enjoys what he is doing alittle to much.

-- prepared (caught off guard@y2k.com), April 15, 1999.

I hope this corrects everything. If not, how do I get my forum name back. Help. Computer handicapped here.

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), April 15, 1999.

gilda jessie, that was 'stopped' not 'stomped'

-- Ned (entaylor@cloudnet.com), April 15, 1999.

gilda jesse, you just have to post a reply in some thread here, and after it is inserted there should be a link on the insertion page to set a new cookie in your browser that will maintain your signature. Somehow you "lost your cookie", which may be just about as weird as "losing your mind", which is how I feel here on planet earth lately. Cognitive dissonance is high,...Dr. Jack convicted, US military saying "oops, killing those folks in that convoy was just an awful mistake, but oh, well,...mistakes happen." I feel more and more daily as if I've slipped down the rabbit hole, or through the looking glass, and haven't hit bottom yet.

To me there seems a need to point out that any "government" functions day-to-day as if it owns "the governed". It is why it is illegal to self-euthanize, or get assistance,...why a person on death row awaiting execution is put on suicide watch..."no, no, no,...you cannot kill yourself,...only we can kill you. You don't own yourself." It is why "governments" can conscript (slavery) young men in times of 'war' (surely we have not seen the end of military drafts), it is why "governments" can use terror campaigns to extort the money and possessions of the governed, etc., etc., ad infinitum. You don't own you,...the "government" does. I hope lots of people begin to 'get' this soon, and stop buying sweet lies. Individual secession is the only way to be free.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), April 15, 1999.

Okay...I was wrong...to set a new cookie...click the link at the bottom of the post new message page, gilda. I think....dang dissonance, makes it so a person can't think straight sometimes...

This is what the link says...try it: "Note: if the default name/email above aren't correct, you can ask this server to expire your cookies."

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), April 15, 1999.

If a person wants to maintain control over their body at the end of life, they can fill out an Advanced Directive. Give a copy to all close family members and your Doctor. Tape a copy to the side of your refrigerator where it is visible. Paramedics look at the frig for DNRs and Advanced Directives. Also, if you are living alone, tape a copy on the inside of your front door, visibly.

If you have a terminal illness and at some point opt to discontinue "curative" treatment, think about hospice. You can get a DNR from your Doctor easily when choosing hospice. Then, when the Hospice RN or MSW comes to arrange services, GIVE HIM/HER YOUR ADVANCE DIRECTIVES! and verbally emphatically state your end-of-life wishes. These will be noted and followed in a good hospice program.

In the natural death process, a person becomes very tired and loses appetite. They stop eating, then stop drinking. A couple days after not drinking (in this process), a person loses the ability to swallow. Soon thereafter the death rattle begins. 8 hrs to 3 days afterward, that person will stop breathing. (Of course, as with all conditions, there will be variations).

A healthy person can also choose to mimic this natural process, but the timeframes will be quite a bit longer.

Example of variation: (I was in a different wing and had no say in her care). I knew one patient, a nun in a convent nursing home, with ovarian cancer, who went 7 months without eating, and about four months just with ice chips. She had some body fat, but still, nobody could understand how she could still be alive! Every day, she would say, "I'm ready, I've let go, why can't I leave?" Fortunately she did not experience pain until the last two weeks, and then had access to medication. She was dearly loved and had many visitors, who came to offer support and went away uplifted by her strength and radiance.

Y2K may end up precipitating premature death for many, and when a person does not want/is not ready to die, the timeframes and conditions are not peaceful and natural.

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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 15, 1999.

Has anyone thought that Dr. K. might just want to push this issue to the Supreme Court? I think that is what he is doing. I think he is trying to stand up for the rights of the terminally ill. Just my .02.

-- (cannot-say@this.time), April 15, 1999.

I am against suicide, and very againt doctor assisted suicide. I feel that suicide is a sin, and you should face death as it comes and not take your own life, and I feel that the doctors should be able to give you strong medicines to ease your pain without killing you(morphine).

-- Crono (Crono@timesend.com), April 15, 1999.

Did I say anything about taking away a persons right to decide how to end their life? I only pointed out that "Saint Jack" was sloppy in his "patient" selection, and I don't believe he's motivated by whats best for patients, but by some sick psychopathic death obsession.

Most doctors I know don't want to unnecessarily prolong the life or suffering of any terminally ill patient, I know I don't. WE have families too, I held MY fathers hand as he died of Pancreatic cancer comfortably medicated to prevent his pain. And I fully expect to die someday too...

I agree that antidepressants are over used. YOU wouldn't believe the number of kids I see on them. BUT I also see people with real clinical depression who would NEEDLESSLY die if not treated, who later lead full happy productive lives. EVERY DAY I see people brought in suicidal. And that is frequently a part of terminal illness not discussed with patients or their families. If your doctor doesn't do enough to control pain, or discuss these issues with you GET ANOTHER ONE.

But I tell you folks, be careful what you wish for in this area of assisted suicide. In the Netherlands, patients have been assisted AGAINST their express wishes. Decisions by others that the patients "quality of life" was poor led to euthnasia. Do you want your insurance company to offer your relatives a "lump" sum settlement if you decide to "voluntarily" suicide in order to save money in the long term? Maybe the Medicare program will establish guidelines of when they won't pay anymore based on some nice bureaucrats formula?

For those of you who never see a doctor thats great. More power too you. May you live long and healthy. But I'll be in the ER if you get shot, or crash your car, or your kid gets meningitis, or you have a heart attack. But feel free not to come. It's a free country (for now)....

-- Kozak (kozak@formerusaf.guv), April 15, 1999.

Ms Scott: Regarding no code. Just make out a living will. Have a copy in your wallet with a medic alert bracelet on, with your doctors office ( if you have one), at your local hospital, TELL YOUR FAMILY. Make sure you tell your family NOT to call 911 because EMS has no choice but to start your resucitation. You will have your wish.... I hope it wasn't something easy to fix with say 1 Defibrillation ( "shock"). Like I said it's a free country.

-- Kozak (kozak@formerusaf.guv), April 15, 1999.

For a pretty comprehensive look at modern 'civilization' and its views on suicide I can recommend the book, The Enigma of Suicide, by George Howe Colt. Also, if you can find an english translation, the essay by Albert Camus, The Myth of Sisyphus. The play, later a movie with Richard Dreyfuss, Who's Life Is It Anyway? I don't know the author, but its available at libraries. I did some pretty hefty research on suicide and human societies for a manuscript I began 3 years ago, and didn't finish, on the subject, working title The Rutted Path,..my experience has shown that there are few hotter buttons than suicide; mix it up (as it is), with religion and 'law', and it has real staying power for arousing deeply emotional conviction.

For what it's worth,...Who's life is it anyway?

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), April 15, 1999.

Donna, after all your research, what are your views now?

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 15, 1999.

I hold an unpopular position, it seems. I think I own me. Governments do not own me, doctors and insurance companies don't own me,...my family loves me but does not own me. I do. When I deem it time for me to die, I will find a way. Let me add that a number of years ago, in the throes of major life disruptions, I was kept on constant watch for suicide for about 2 years. In the end, at that time, I decided to live. Professionals and family alike knew eventually that had I not there was nothing short of imprisoning me that would have come close to preventing my ending my life. That was fortunately not necessary. It was terrible for them,...it was equally frightening for me. What's come of that is there is little or nothing that scares me. When one has been that close to death at one's own hand, what is left to fear?

I'm not sure this is as descriptive as it should be, Leska, but my perception of life and death is very different than what it used to be. 'Nuff for now, I guess.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), April 15, 1999.

Thank you, Donna, that helps me know a little more where you are coming from. Totally agree with you that "there are few hotter buttons than suicide" and our society will be increasingly debating the topic. Have seen/heard so many angles; I'm watching and trying to understand more deeply. "Ownership" -- also think we own ourselves. I want to know directly from God what He/She thinks. Many questions.

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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 15, 1999.

Donna I don't know which sounds worse, to have "lost my cookie." or to ask the server to euthanize---I mean "expire my cookie." It seems I have the problem fixed. I'm always rather kind gnarly and peevish during tax time, and now this horror in Kosovo, so I probably caused the problem myself. Thanks for your help.

I know exactly what you mean about falling down the rabbit hole. I was doing research for my bi-weekly article--this time on taxes--and I just became overwhelmed thinking about the millions of ways in which we're taxed. I was already upset at Dr. K going to jail after he's helped so many people. I have the book "Final Exit," and no damned doctor is going to have the final decision over my exit.

I feel like I'm living in the Twilight Zone. Does it seem ludicrous to anyone else that we are bombing the shit out another country's people, buildings, homes, etc. and we call ourselves civilized. We throw a man in jail, who helped people do what they wanted to do, and let sex offenders and murderers free.

The monsters are coming to Maple Street.

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), April 15, 1999.

The problem with determining one's end-of-life care is this:

By the time one is at the door of death, one can no longer communicate his wishes.
There are so many people who through illness or accident lose the ability to clearly indicate their wishes, or retain power to see their wishes respected and followed.

If you feel you know what you will want, write it down now, get the proper forms, often called Advanced Directives, and follow all directions and fill in all the blanks.

There are lines to write exactly how you feel and what you want.

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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 15, 1999.

Here's the latest:

Judge who sentenced Kevorkian received death threats

Some of the news in this article is opposite what I read yesterday. Oh well, time will tell.

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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 15, 1999.

Ahhh.... so it was YOU, Gilda, who posted as Jean on Pastor Chris' forum. Interesting. :-)

-- Gayla Dunbar (privacy@please.com), April 15, 1999.

Just finishing some Red Cross training, and I can tell you that they hammer away at the DNR/permission issue. It's stated over and over throughput the training that the responder has to obtain permission to treat, and that a DNR or other pre-existing instruction is to be obeyed to the letter. We even went through a scenario where the accident victim refuses treatment and then lapses into unconsciousness. Correct response: the refusal stands, even if the victim is now unconscious.

Don't know what other organizations are teaching, but the Red Cross clearly strongly supports "patient's right to refuse".

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), April 15, 1999.

Thanks, Mac :-)
Yep, write it out beforehand and make it visible. Also, keep a copy in the top of car glove compartment!

Use bright pink or bright red paper or envelope.

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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 15, 1999.

Here's the latest on Kevorkian:

He is NOT doing a hunger strike.
Starving oneself is not easy psychologically. I was wondering if he'd have the will and courage to walk his talk. No.
Not that I advocate starvation, just that I get curious if fanatics are able to do to themselves what they so zealously do to others.

Lawyer: Kevorkian not on hunger strike

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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 15, 1999.

Gayla I belong to a writer's group of eighteen women. All of us have computers, but only ten of us are on the net, and only three of us post on forums, and we all use each other's anonymous names to post in different places. The other forum I posted on as Jean was the MOJO Live Wire which went down, and the last time I checked, had never returned. There was already a gillie and another gilda on there.

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), April 15, 1999.

BTW, the issue of end-of-life care is, IMHO, imperatively apropos to Y2K. Without access to current "normal" medical care, with prolonged infrastructure disruptions, with opportunistic wars, unrest, mayhem, epidemics and infection, there will be large numbers of people who either are dealing with illness and death or wondering how best to escape insufferable conditions.

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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 15, 1999.

Gayla I think I posted on Pastor Chris' forum once, but it was under my own name of gilda--can't remember what I said though.

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), April 15, 1999.

If you want to kill yourself...go ahead... and take the responsiblility of being accountable for your own actions...

But if it is ever legalized you are asking for a whole new set of problems... The government may help decide who needs to be put "out of their misery"... especially the ones they consider useless feeders... or perhaps those that are ready to apply for Social Security ( oh, it's your what birthday? it was nice knowing you)... it will be like the life time employee who is terminated before he gets his gold watch and retirement fund

BTW Gilda... how old did you say you were? 'Bout that time...

Texas Terri

-- Texas Terri (DeepInTheHeart@Texas.com), April 15, 1999.

Well, there you see, you do get it, Texas Terri,...in the US it is illegal to own one's own life. I couldn't have said it better.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), April 15, 1999.

Donna,

Apparently you don't get it...but perhaps when it is your time you will...how old are you? ...getting up there

-- Texas Terri (DeepInTheHeart@Texas.com), April 15, 1999.

Hi Gilda! I remember the post because I thought it was an interesting one for a Christian forum:

While I find vulgar, repetitive language a silly waste of time, I do not find it shocking. I think sometimes people are just as put off by holier-than-thou Christians, as they are by vulgar nitwits. No offense intended, but both displays of overt filth, or virtuous Christianity can be annoying to people who display neither.

-- Jean Dezane (dezane@hotmail.com), December 31, 1998.

-- Gayla Dunbar (privacy@please.com), April 15, 1999.

Yes...I think it is about Gilda's time... she needs to be put out of her misery... her chip will be terminated and then re-issued to a more useful feeder...

-- Texas Terri (DeepInTheHeart@Texas.com), April 15, 1999.

Terri, it would seem to me that I own the right to my own life. The medical profession, the courts nor the state should have control over when or how I die. If that's not your choice that's fine, but I want to have the say over my own life and death.

-- Jean Scott (dezane@hotmail.com), April 16, 1999.

Once again, my post has shown Jean Scott. It should have been gilda jessie. I've had lots of computer problems lately. First it began saying I'd committed an illegal operation and I couldn't even open this site or my book chat site. Then I couldn't open my email account. Finally I got an email from my ISP which said we had been idiling for over two hours and were shut off. The whole thing had been shut down before we left the house. Y2K, Gremlins?

-- murf (murf@earthling.net), April 16, 1999.

It gets curiouser and curiouser. The address and name on that last post, I've never used, none of my writer's groups has used it and it is totally unknown to me. My husband said that today, while I was gone, he was playing a card game, not on the internet, and all of a sudden a screen full of recipes popped up in front of him. Tomorrow we call the Computer Doc.

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), April 16, 1999.

gilda, when you post a reply,...check above to see what name the server has put up for you...for the time being you can alter it,...if the problem persists...contact greenspan at the link provided regarding your problem.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), April 16, 1999.

gilda,...try emailing Phil Greenspan....the address: philg@mit.edu

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), April 16, 1999.

It occurs to me, Terri, that you have somewhat of a fixation on people's ages,....you've mentioned mine and gilda's, even though we might be no-nothing 20-somethings. Suicide knows no such limitations. When I worked in domestic violence intervention and preparation we had more than one child in our facility, under the age of 9, that was suicidal. I would suggest you have not done enough homework on the subject of human beings and suicide. You can call names and make all the inferences you like, but it does not negate that the issues is one of importance to many people, and important as well to the folks who don't fall in with your perspective.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), April 16, 1999.

Donna...

Based on your value system...and your "right to kill yourself" mentality...I suppose you let the 9 year old girl carry through her wishes to kill herself?...if not, why would you deny her "her rights"?...BTW...your arrogant, know-it-all, condesending, superiority attitude gets reeeeal old ...who made you the forum monitor?

Gilda...It is hypocritical of people who claim the "right" to live or die as one pleases... yet denies life to unborn children through the indescriminate use of abortion...which I find most people in your position support...usually, these groups have more compassion for endangered three eyed frogs...

Texas Terri

-- Texas Terri (DeepInTheHeart@Texas.com), April 16, 1999.

Ed Yourdon has written an essay called "Y2K And Kosovo":

Y2K And Kosovo

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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 18, 1999.