Security in buying gold?greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
This query comes from one unschooled in greater economics, though this site with its informed and often opposing opinions is educational. Here it is: Could non-collector category gold coins such as Krugerrands/Mapleleaves be confiscated in a Y2K crunch? I have read that this is possible if kept in a bank's safety deposit box and the owner wished to withdraw them. If coins were kept privately, could a person be nabbed for hoarding in the event of having to dip into the "stash" for purchases? I'd like to have a little nest egg but am nervous. Some contributers to this page have stated that they were asked for SS# and other very personal information upon purchasing gold from dealers. That does not sound very confidential. On the other hand, when you return to sell the gold, if you and the dealer have no proof of purhase or record with correct name etc., could your acquisition and possesion be suspect and you'd have problems? Research on various internet gold sites give biased information in their rcommendations to buy so I hope to hear answers from private individuals unconnected in any way to the business. Thanks.
-- Joyce Christian (email@example.com), April 06, 1999
Joyce, This isn't quite what you are looking for but....I'd be really leary about storing anything in a bank safety deposit box if there is any chance thinks bet bad with Y2K. You may not be allowed access to your box, or things in you box could be confiscated. Just a thought.
-- Apple (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 06, 1999.
Joyce--- If this gets as bad as some people believe, it's not a good idea to be out and about buying anything.-period-. Not with gold, not with dollars, not with quarters. If you have "gold" and try to make any purchase, what is to stop somebody from following you home and asking for all your "gold" or dollars, or quarters. If things get bad who's to know the value of a gold coin? The last thing you'd want anyone to know is that you have a stash of food,money or gold.
-- thinkIcan (thinkIcan@make.it), April 06, 1999.
If you are looking for accurate assurances or predictions of the future, you are on the wrong planet and probably the wrong universe.
With all the various PDDs and EOs Clinton can confiscate ANYthing, including your food, fuel, car, house, and relocate you to wherever and force you to work with no pay at whatever task. The phrase sex worker might have a whole new meaning, nothing new there, the Japanese did it to Phillipinos. That said, implementing that type of Draconian garbage is another thing altogether. If Y2K hits hard and "our" government makes things worse by trying to "help" us, they'll only be able to a certain amount of damage because of limited time, manpower, and resources. Therefore, they'll do those items that will be easiest first, and that certianly would be to rifle through safety deposit boxes looking for drugs, illegal currency, and other forbidden naughties. Anybody who reads Yourdon's 2nd edition and thinks that banks will survive is very polly.
On purchasing, do NOT deal with any dealer that wants any excess information. IF you are purchasing face to face, pay in cash and walk out with the coins, just get a reciept with the description of the coins and the cost. If the IRS survives [insert laughter here] you can then prove your basis (CGS, cost of goods sold). If you are buying remotely, a location to mail the goods is all that is needed. I like 1-800-982-7070, ask for Burt Blumert if you have any questions. I'm am not associated with et cetra......
I think that purchasing needed items now makes more sense than purchasing them during the crises with gold or silver, they are cheaper now. Best use of gold and silver is as a storehouse of value for rebuilding on the other side of the crises. Of course saving your life during a crises is even better than having your heirs rebuild on the other side, after all you can't plan ahead/predict all of your needs.
If you are planing for rebuilding funds ONLY, one ounce Krugerands and Austria-Hungary 100 Coronas traditionally have the lowest premium (mark-up over spot). Please note that spot prices (depending on whose definition) are wholesale prices for 100 ounce bars of gold (or future contracts of current month) or the strike price which buy or sell orders are marked down or up against.
If you are thinking that you might need to make some purchases mid-crises buy a $1,000 face value bag of junk silver first. See http://home.earthlink.net/~kenseger for a primer on silver. Next, the lowest premium fractional gold coins (which have a much higher premium than the one ounce or near one ounce coins) are British Sovereigns (just under 1/4 oz.) and Swiss or French Francs or Columbian pesos. The 1/10, 1/4 and 1/2 oz. American Eagles or Canadian Mapleleafs have mixed availability currently.
-- Ken Seger (email@example.com), April 06, 1999.
You pose several questions that I believe have yet to be tested in a court involving Confiscation of Private Goods in a Time of Declared Emergency.
Today it is quite legal to own gold - there is an active bid and ask market. However, Presidents Kennedy, Reagan and Clinton have signed and updated Executive Orders allowing govt to "confiscate private goods for the common good."
In my opinion, the primary intention of these EOs is to allow govt to takeover private enterprises like a utility or grocery store. A Y2K example: If several cities suffer a power outage and there is one Y2K compliant utility that chooses to disengage from the grid, the EOs permit the govt to force the compliant utiltiy to try to share power with the noncompliant one, even at the risk of damaging the hardware of the compliant one - govt's call. Also, govt troops could be stationed at grocery stores, rail stations etc to guard and to assist in orderly distribution of supplies.
In my opinion the govt will not be concerned with an individual gold stash, so by all means I believe gold to be an excellent means to preserve some value during the rollover period. Only in the Worst Case scenario with people evacuated to shelters, followed by the shelters running out of supplies, followed by a disintegration of discipline, might govt troops initiate a house to house search for food or valuables. In which case, I expect they would be criminals in uniform and you would have every right to defend your property. Legal confiscation will require a functional government that follows Due Process Procedure.
Ive bough gold and no one has asked for my SS#. The dealer suggested I have my purchase mailed to a drop box like Mail Boxes Etc. It came in a discrete brown box. SO I see gold not as a means of exchange during rollover but as a store of value to be used after rollover say 2001 or later.
-- knotty (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 06, 1999.
This question, or one similar to it came up about a week ago. Problem is, no one spoke to just what kind of groceries would cost $150-$500, depending on the weight of the coin , which might also then be worth $5000 dollars. A much smarter idea is to buy "Rounds" from Sunshine Mining Co. (Still on NYSE) from their Texas office. Cost was spot price of silver plus about $.45-55 per coin for minting of the 99.9% silver coin (same size as old silver dollar). THEN, you can take a small number of these for trade, and I would bet they will appreciate to $100 within six months of the trouble, BECAUSE, silver was ALWAYS traded at 10 to 1 against gold for 5000 years. Then US , Britian, etc. stepped in in late 1800's to artifically apply a new ratio. Since then, silver has been squeezed to about 70 to 1 with gold. When gold hits $1000 per ounce, the common man will turn to silver, and the old ratio will again assert itself,IMHO. Followed the market for 35 years; read all the books, and THAT is what history tells me. Eagle
-- Harold Walker (email@example.com), April 06, 1999.
Artificial? The price of silver dropped due to the discovery of the Comstock lode. Just as the price of gold had dropped due to the Spanish invasion of Central America a few centuries earlier. Increase the supply and the price drops.
-- Paul Davis (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 06, 1999.
In the early Middle Ages, gold was traded, ounce for ounce, with black pepper. Salt was once used a medium of exchange. In the early America's sugar was so valuable, affluent families would give blocks as gifts... and then family members would use it sparingly during the year.
Mr. Davis is right. Price depends on the interaction of supply and demand. Gold and silver have little "use" value, but have a history of "transaction" value. What good is gold to a hungry man? You can't eat or drink it (as many fables have aptly pointed out.)
In my opinion, the best investments have both use and transaction value... although in hard times I favor use value. For example, I own 40 acres in rural West Virginia. The use value is quite high, but some could be rented (transaction value). Historically, guns, tools, equipment, seeds, etc. have high use and exchange values.
-- Mr. Decker (email@example.com), April 06, 1999.
Ahem. Currently my local supermarket's retail price for beano exceeds the price of silver, ounce for ounce. Now while some extol the health benefits of colloidal silver, ...
-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), April 06, 1999.
Joyce, it was I about a month or so ago, who posted my experience buying gold and the requiremnt of giving my ss#. I have since gone to two other dealers who did not ask for it. They were both smaller dealers. I've bought amarican gold eagles, whole ounces some halves and a few quarter oz pieces. I've bougth them mostly for the security, to "preserve wealth". However, i do not rule out the possiability of using them for trade in the future if things do go bad. I bought $500 face value of junk silver quarters for just that purpous. I would recomend that you go to a smaller local dealer, pay cash, maybe buy just one piece and see if they ask for identy. If they don't you could go back and buy there without worry. Please forgive the spelling mistakes, it never was my strong suit.
-- Too scared to give real address (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 07, 1999.