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Under the heading "19 AMERICAN SOLDIERS DEAD" at http://www.mrssurvival.com/dcforum/5/339.html

-- thinkIcan (thinkIcan@make.it), April 05, 1999


If it is true how will the American Public react?

-- thinkIcan (thinkIcan@make.it), April 05, 1999.


I read that article earlier this morning. I'm not sure if it is true, but it would not surprise me if it were. Let us just hope that it is false. Yes, I can see the USA trying to keep it secret, until the release would cause more public backing for their actions. I would think that the families of these 19 people would have to be informed. Once they are told, it will only be a matter of time before the story is known.

-- (cannot-say@this.time), April 05, 1999.

Maybe the families of these "19 DEAD" will not be notified untill we have many more casualties, re sending in ground troops.

-- thinkIcan (thinkIcan@make.it), April 05, 1999.

Who knows ??? Certainly Possible.

Link to Story

-- WebRNot (webrnot@ncap13k.com), April 05, 1999.

This is propaganda nonsense. None of this stacks up to reality. American bodies would not be sent to a harbor and they would not come by ship. How stupid and dumb. Dont fall for stuff like this.

-- Absolutely (ridiculous@absurd.com), April 05, 1999.


You're absolutely correct. Soldiers killed in Macedonia would be airlifted to Italy or Germany.

This is typical of the blather the uninformed conspiracy mongering idiots of this forum are brewing up. They think they are experts in foreign affairs, military matters and humanitarian issues. If they know so much, and are so disgruntled, why the hell don't they run for office?

-- y2k con (a@b.c), April 05, 1999.

Wonder if these will be listed as "traffic accident victims"? It seems to be a classic Arkansas trick.

Look for news stories like: "A bad week for US forces on peacekeeping duty in Bosnia, as nineteen American servicemembers died in (put your guess here) traffic accidents. Pentagon sources strees these troops were not involved in any way with events ongoing in Kosovo and Serbia..."

It would be all too easy for an administration hack to feed such stories to the news media. And the network lapdogs would regurgitate exactly what the news spinners fed them, no questions asked.

And if these reports *are* true, I'll bet that there won't be any autopsies on the bodies. They sure wouldn't want any talk about crash injuries that look like bullet wounds, ala Ron Brown.

Gee, now I wonder if these folks might not be listed as dying in a soon-to-occur plane crash with Secretary _ or General _?


-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), April 05, 1999.


For those of you who don't know, Thessaloniki and Athenai are the US Air Force Base and the town it's located in just outside Athens, Greece (Athen International Airport, to be exact). From what I know, this would be the point for getting personnel and bodies out of Macedonia, not Italy.

This is kinda suspicious, since the three US troops captured were based in Macedonia. Now this really makes me wonder what went on when and since those three soldiers were captured.

Has this mess gotten a lot hotter than we're being led (or misled) to believe?


-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), April 05, 1999.

Yes that's it Wild Weasel! They've actually had nuclear war over there! But the HAARP device is warping time so we don't know about it yet. Didn't you see the cobwebs all over Belgrade on CNN?

Oh and the 19 bodies - aliens.

-- y2k con (a@b.c), April 05, 1999.

This was also on that idiotic Yellowstone site of fundies. That may be where it came from.

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), April 05, 1999.

this is where the story came from. http://www.serbia-info.com/news/index.html

-- yooper (dewee@hotmail.com), April 05, 1999.

Excuse me, but I was under the impression that this is a Y2k forum !

-- Yan (no@no.no), April 05, 1999.


Y2K is not happening in a vacuum. ANYTHING that can change the level of preparations which is appropriate, or which is AVAILABLE bears on our actions. Thus, this is NOT exactly OT. This is ALSO an additional data point ref .gov openness with its citizens, which bears ENTIRELY on Y2K.



-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), April 05, 1999.

Y2K Con, I like your posts a lot. You are reasonable and thoughtful. I'm glad you're posting. It's a refreshing alternative to all the insane conspiracy freaks who seem to be taking over this forum. Please keep posting, and don't let the lunatics get you down.

-- Maintaining (perpetual@thought.won), April 06, 1999.


it's impossible to say what sort of cross border games are going on right now. I'd expect that there are US and NATO SPECOPS folks over the line, as well as other scouts (like the three who were captured). Early on (before the F117 knockdown) the Serbs were making claims that they'd knocked down two helicopters and a fixed wing aircraft...no confirmation from NATO, but then one wouldn't expect that, were those aircraft somewhere that hasn't been acknowledged yet...probably just Serb propaganda, but...


-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), April 06, 1999.

It's one thing to say that there dark conspiratorial powers at work, but it's another thing to say that our governments (both NATO and Yugoslav) are attempting to spin this war toward their own advantage.

I, for one, a deeply suspicious about the pilot of the F-117. I certainly hope he's okay and just "camera shy"--or at worst recovering from migranes induced by a concussion--but a little devil on my left shoulder is sneering and pulling his handlebar mustache, telling me that the pilot was really killed or that he was captured and tortured. No real rescue attempt, only a rescue of public opinion. Who knows? As they say, the first casualty of a war is definitely the truth.

Ah how sad. And all of this could have been prevented peacefully.

-- coprolith (coprlolith@rocketship.com), April 06, 1999.

coprolith -

I agree with you regarding the spin from both sides. Have you seen CNN lately? Not only have they had a former Serbian Information Officer on recently but they did an interview with "Arkan" the indicted war criminal and allowed him to spew his rhetoric without answering a single question. It was a low point in television history, IMHO.

I have to wonder why it is that some brave journalists have not crossed the line into Kosovo and brought the "truth" out of that area first hand. Are they fearful of losing their lives, perhaps?

Real investigative journalism seems to be dead now, replaced by talking heads that only seem to be capable of brokering spin from less than objective sources.

As for the 19 soldiers dead... I want more proof.

However, if there were spin to this from the NATO/US side I think it would actually manage to rally support for deeper action rather than the opposite.

I don't know if it's true but it certainly seems possible. I just don't trust where this "information" is currently posted to be an objective source.

Mike ========================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), April 06, 1999.

Coprolith -

They still aren't identifying the downed pilot, but thought you might be interested in this.



God Helped Him Eject, Stealth Pilot Says

By John J. Lumpkin Journal Staff Writer Moments after his parachute opened, the pilot of the downed stealth fighter was thinking about how to escape and survive. "I knew I was fairly deep into Serbian territory," he said. "I had guessed my position was within 20 miles of Belgrade -- not a happy thought, considering the risk in a combat search and rescue that deep into Serbian territory." The pilot, from Holloman Air Force Base's 49th Fighter Wing, ejected during a night mission over Yugoslavia on March 27.

The military has declined to identify the officer, but the Air Force published a report Monday following an interview between him and 1st Lt. Matthew Borg, a public affairs officer at Aviano Air Base, Italy.

The pilot is returning to New Mexico, a military official said Monday. A Holloman spokesman could not confirm this. The Air Force has not announced what brought down the F-117A Nighthawk stealth fighter, but military sources indicate it was hit by a Yugoslav surface-to-air missile or anti-aircraft gun. According to Monday's report, the pilot described the experience of ejecting from the fighter as "violent." " 'Am I going to know when it's time to get out?' is the question on every fighter pilot's mind," he said. "The one fragment of this whole event I can't remember is pulling the (ejection seat) handles. God took my hands and pulled." He was in radio contact with NATO forces after his parachute unfolded. As he descended, the pilot surveyed the farmland beneath him, looking for landmarks and places to hide. He landed in a freshly plowed field just 50 yards from a road and rail intersection. His injuries were slight, limited to cuts and bruises. "There was some activity at that intersection," he said. "Thank God no one actually saw me come down." He immediately buried a life raft and other survival equipment that deployed during his ejection from the damaged fighter. He hid in a shallow culvert about 200 yards from where he had landed. Over the next several hours, he saw flashing headlights, heard barking dogs and felt anxiety. At one point, a search dog came within 30 feet of him. He hoped, but did not know, that a rescue operation was under way. "For the downed guy, it's very unsettling to not know what's going on," he said. "You're thinking, 'Do they know I'm here? Do they know my location? Where are the assets and who is involved? What's the plan? Are they going to try to do this tonight?' '' The pilot remained in radio contact with friendly forces but said he had to minimize transmissions for fear of being monitored by the Yugoslav forces. The pilot's fellow airmen, as well as people across the United States, quickly learned about the downed aircraft as Serbian television transmitted pictures of the stealth's wreckage around the world. But there was no word on the fate of the pilot. The pilot had an American flag, folded under his flight suit, that was given to him by an airman before he took off from Aviano. "For me, it was representative of all the people who I knew were praying," the pilot said. "It was a piece of everyone and very comforting. It helped me not let go of hope. Hope gives you strength ... it gives you endurance." Almost six hours after the crash, rescuers from the Air Force's 16th Special Operations Group landed their helicopters and picked up the pilot. They were in friendly airspace within minutes. Upon his return to Aviano, he gave the flag back to the airman. "When we heard he was down, it was as if we had lost a member of our family," said the airman, who was also not named. "These guys aren't just pilots to us. We know their families and they know ours." In a statement that evening, President Clinton said he was "tremendously proud of the skills of the pilot and the courageous individuals who participated in the recovery

-- Roland (nottelling@nowhere.com), April 06, 1999.

I really hate to do this, but in ref investigative journalists and going into Kosovo and bringing out the "truth":

The country has been closed to journalists, and all of them have been tossed out. 'Sneaking in' would guarantee treatment as a spy, a quiet trial in camera, probably after the burial of the body.

This has been widely reported by all of the mainstream and non- mainstream outlets. You missed it or something? Oh, right Freedom of the Press. Well, it doesn't exist everywhere.



-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), April 06, 1999.

Chuck -

I have been wondering why Brett Sadler from CNN has been allowed to stay in Belgrade.

Any thoughts?


-- Roland (nottelling@nowhere.com), April 06, 1999.


folks this is the url for the serbian ministry of information website article on this story.

One thing I would remind folks, when they look at this site - the picture does appear to be of something which could be an incinerated aircraft, however it would require an expert in aircraft accident investigation to even make an attempt to determine what sort of aircraft it might be.


-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), April 06, 1999.

With all due respect to the Ministry of Information for Serbia that heap of twisted metal could be one of their own MIG 29s or downed helicopters. Where is the picture of the coffins and why wouldn't Europe be filled with reports of them?

Free press at this time does not reside in Belgrade but it does throughout the NATO countries. Somehow I think a reporter from an actual news agency, driven by profit and greed, would have tried hard to break this story and be the first to report it if it were true.

Mike ============================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), April 06, 1999.

Mike-- I agree with you 100%. It's too big a scoop not to go after. Probably just some Serbian spin, you know the kind we are familiar with.

-- thinkIcan (thinkIcan@make.it), April 06, 1999.

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