Spiday, I asked my Dad, in England, "Who the hell is David Icke?"

"Oh," he replied, chortling, "he's a nutter. Used to be a footballer then a sports reporter, now he thinks he's God. Spouts a right load of old cobblers."

So I dug a little bit on the Net, wading through countless Icke self-promotion sites. (By the way, Icke's books average $17 apiece, his tapes are $18 and his videos $25.) Here's an enlightening link

http://www.cybernaute.com/earthconcert2000/Takeoverbid.htm

where you'll find a longish excerpt from an Icke book entitled The Robot's Rebellion. It talks about extraterrestrial "volunteers,"

". . . who have dedicated themselves to restore harmony and help the Earth to re-synchronise with the rest of the Galactic and Universal family. These volunteers came forward on many levels and the struggle began between light and dark, a theme seen throughout ancient texts and legends. This has been portrayed symbolically in films like Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. The writers of much science fiction are really tapping into a memory of what actually happened, not always in detail, but in theme. . . .

Other volunteers. . . did not incarnate in physical bodies on the Earth. They arrived in massive spacecraft, some of them miles in length, while others simply manifested themselves here. These were extraterrestrials who came to bring knowledge to this planet hundreds of thousands of years ago. . . .

Waves of these beings began many civilisations on the Earth, including the ones we know as Pan, Mu (Lemuria) and Atlantis. These civilisations were much more advanced in their technology and understanding of Creation than we are today. . . . Atlantis was powered by the use of non-physical energy, the harnessing of the sea of energy around us. Crystals were part of this power and light source, and all the power and warmth they needed was produced without any pollution or damage to the Earth. That knowledge is going to be available to us as the present transformation continues. Indeed, much of it is already available but has been suppressed to protect empires of self interest. . . ."

Their bodies were different from ours and very different from those of the Earth people on the planet at that time. They were less dense and they could float above the ground through the power of their consciousness. Many could materialise and de-materialise themselves along the lines of Beam me up, Scotty in Star Trek but without the need for its technology. . . .

The Atlanteans also lived for many hundreds of years in each incarnation because their bodies were more in tune with the energies around them. As they understood the true nature of life, they could treat disease (disharmony) before it became a physical problem. Today we wait for the physical symptoms but, by then, it is often too late. The volunteer consciousness which are known as Lemurians and Atlanteans came to raise the understanding on this planet in order to help the Luciferic consciousness to break out of its spiral of disharmony and to protect the human consciousness from being affected by that disharmony. . . ."

End cut and paste

I think my Dad's right.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), April 04, 1999

Answers

I realized years ago that ET's, disembodied essences, spirit guides, etc. (if any such there be) may not always tell the truth, or the whole truth, and sometimes just flat out deceive. (This is also true of human beings.)

Plus a good deal of what is presented as communication from these entities simply expresses the beliefs -- or fantasies -- ot the so-called "channel."

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), April 04, 1999.

Old Git,

You're dad is wrong - Icke is not a nutter, he's actually one of the most eloquent and informed public speakers you will come across. As usual Old Git you are another person spouting off about Icke without actually having read ANY of his books or listened to his talks (which are freely available on the net under the Jeff Rense and Art Bell archives).

My question to you is are you going to do your homework and read the books? Or listen to the shows? Like No Spam and Flint I suspect not, which is a shame for you three.

No skin off my nose - remain ill-informed and brainwashed.

Blinkers, blinkers my friend.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 04, 1999.

Andy, I've waded through a lot of Icke's stuff on his innumerable self-aggrandizing sites as well as some of the others you mention. I don't have to waste up to $27 for a book, $25 for a video or $18 for a tape, all I have to do is read the excerpt above (from one of Icke's own sites) and see that this person's opinions on such vital issues as Y2K and Yugoslavia are based on beliefs in extraterrestrials, channeling and crystals. If being skeptical of such codswallop makes me in your eyes ill-informed, brainwashed and blinkered, then I'm ecstatic to be so labeled.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), April 04, 1999.

Old Git,

Order the books from the library - it's free. Go down to Barnes and Noble, find a comfy armchair, and have a read. It's free. Go to Amazon.com - you'll get a nice discount. E-mail me privately if you like and I'll send you his first two books - you can return them when you've finished. Listen to the archives I mentioned - it's free.

You're missing the point. I don't necessarily buy ALL the stuff about Atlantis and other dimensions either (actually I do a great deal of it but that's another story). What IS important is the research that has been done, not just by Icke, but many others, into the REAL history and what has been going on and is still going on. This research is fully annotated, with an excellent bibliography too.

You see, this is what you have missed with your blind prejudice. You think it's all a scam, i can assure you it's not.

Take me up on my offer - you've got nothing to lose.

Cheers, Andy

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 04, 1999.

Andy, it's not blind prejudice, my views come from long years of study and experience. I've investigated most, if not all, of the philosophies and theories from which Icke has borrowed bits and pieces to create his own particular little schtick, most of which were around when I was in my twenties and thirties and looking for the Meaning of Life. Icke uses bits of Scientology, est, Chariots of the Gods, oriental philosophies and religions, Illuminati and other conspiracy theories, extreterrestrials, reincarnation, and, more recent fads, crystals and channeling, on and on. And, although I'm not a Christian, Icke is heavily anti-Christian, which I find as disturbing as zealous right-wing Christian beliefs. I read [majored in] Social Psychology at a good university and continue to study various religions, cults, philosophies, behavior theories and other reasons for people doing the things they do. I've experienced many cultures and lifestyles. It's been an ongoing hobby for decades and I long ago discarded the wobbly cards upon which Icke builds his house. I haven't got time to go through it all again just to engage in endless argument with you, point by point, and I don't need or want to. You're obviously thoroughly enamored of the man's theories and nothing I can say will sway you. I'm knowledgeable enough to know when to stop banging my head against a brick wall and experienced enough to know that given time this too will pass, as have so many other fads. And now I'm going to look for more useful and practical material for posts==pay back a little of the bandwidth I've used on this subject.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), April 05, 1999.

Very well put Old Git - however I think you miss my point. Discard all his theories, as I said earlier, on the more esoteric subjects. What I'm talking about is the annotated research on history, and the political situation then and now. That's all, then on now.

I really think you would be surprised, as I was. When I was first given the book by my ex-girlfriend in England a couple of years ago I thought - bloody hell, she's cracking up, I'm not reading this rubbish - then I started the book and it really impressed me.

Hey - the offer still stands.

Later, Andy

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 05, 1999.

Well. A: was going to ask if 'old cobblers' were equivalent to 'codswallop' when Old Git answered for me. As for the rest...some time ago I realized that what we moderns term 'materialism' cannot bring man to complete happiness. Although I am as aware of the advantages of cephalosporins/hot & cold plumbing/Glenn Gould on CD/you name it/ as the next fellow, I see the unbridled search for wealth and technological prowess as countervailing to instincts of what Wendell Berry calls 'human economy.' In simplest terms, an economy that serves humans, and not Mammon with his attendant subalterns Efficiency and Corporation. And so I am sympathetic to ALL movements by which men seek after 'higher' truths, wrong-headed or no. I tend towards Carrol Quigley's view of the influence of 'International Finance,' but don't hold with those for whom the words are code for 'Jews.' It is simply undeniable that the "bankers," arranged through multi-layered organizations such as the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, the various national central banks, the investment banks, currency traders, and enabled by all the Bretton Woods/GATT type agreements, wield overwhelming influence on what are supposed to be representative democracies. If thinking that such enormous concentrations of capital represent interests often inimical to those of the majority of humans makes me a 'conspiracy monger,' then I can only say 'mea culpa.' All the other stuff, best summed up as 'New Age,' I view with extreme caution, though I acknowledge many interesting parallels with my own set of nutty beliefs, that center around the Blessed Virgin Mary. (BTW--the Watcher web site, anti-Catholic as can be, offers a fascinating approach to the world of channeling/alien abduction: do a Boolean on 'Cydonia & paradigms). The whole idea of this being 'an end of an age' intrigues me, for (as has been obvious from my posts) I see a devolving civilization, increasing scatalogic, growing like a mushroom in the rotting corpse of Christendom. Yet, due to the incremental increase in technical abilities, we have achieved marvels previously unimagined (at least for the last five thousand years). And that, ladies & germs (snore) is why I find both Y2K and this forum so endlessly fascinating.

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), April 05, 1999.

Andy,

If David Icke's "annotated research on history, and the political situation then and now" is authentically reliable, then (a) how did he ever make the mistake of using over-28-years-obsolete EOs in a January 1999 anti-Clinton article in the first place, and (b) why hasn't he corrected or amended his errors in that article in the two months since he has been personally notified of them?

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), April 05, 1999.

(continued)

Let me add that I see that Mr. Icke or someone on his staff took time to revise the introduction to the article (Y2K: Genius or Incompetence?) on his web site within the past few weeks. So why hasn't the revision extend to the correction or removal of glaring factual errors withing the article?

That is, _if_ Mr. Icke genuinely cares about, and is competent at, getting the facts straight in this context?

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), April 05, 1999.

No Spam,

I really have no idea. You have closed your mind, you won't read the books - let's call it a day on this one.

regards, Andy

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 05, 1999.

(further continued)

Oops, I misquoted Icke's article title. It's "Y2K: Incompetence or Genius?".

It's abbreviated to "Y2K or incompetence?" in his index of artices.

I really ought to give him credit for fixing one error since February:

He (or someone on his staff) corrected his article index's misspelling of "incompetence". (It used to have two m's and one n.)

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), April 05, 1999.

Andy,

>You have closed your mind,

I just love it that my insistence on getting the facts straight is being characterized as having closed my mind.

Yes, Andy, I've closed my mind to the multitude of people who want to sell me something that is factually unsound. When I was younger, I bought books written by authors like David Icke, and over and over I ended up disgusted that I had wasted my money on garbage ideas crafted to be pleasing on initial view but which were without sound foundation on reality.

>you won't read the books.

As for reading his books: note that my criticism is directed toward a particular article published on his web site. Why won't you acknowledge what I'm pointing out about this very visible evidence of Mr. Icke's carelessness with facts? Why do you keep changing the subject?

Are Mr. Icke's failure to get the facts straight and refusal to correct them when errors are pointed out explained in his books? Is that it?

Have _you_ taken the time and trouble, Andy, to go to the URL of the Federal Register's information on the legal status of Executive Orders that I posted previously, to doublecheck the status of EOs 10995, 10997-11000 and 11002? Just takes a minute.

Here it is again, so you won't have the excuse of not finding it:

Federal Register - List of Executive Orders at http://www.nara.gov/fedreg/eo.html

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), April 05, 1999.