RACISM OR WHAT?

I was greatly offended by recent message titled, "Do we really understand yet what we're setting ourselves up for?" in which the author imagines immigrant dependencies on government assistance devastating a vulnerable infrastructure, "racial combat," and "radical Hispanic leaders" attempting an "ethnic cleansing" of the South West against patriots holding out in Texas, Arizona, etc. I was disappointed that no one (at least, initially) took the author to task. Instead, several respondents seemed to consider the potential "situation" posited by the author. Who sees the real problem here?

I do not understand why some people here are terrified of different peoples. But I do see here and elsewhere references to race wars and other similar scenarios in the event of wide-spread and hard hitting Y2K failures. If you want to talk about the haves and the have nots, that's one thing. If you want to talk generally about groups (black, yellow, brown, red, or green) and how it is *us against them*, I am more worried about you than them: it is people like you who will support a fascist and bring them into power with lots of fanfare.

As Mr. Deckert pointed out, you have more to fear from the highly trained, vicious, military-mercenary than immigrants who may have come from a third world country and may be better equipped experientially and psychologically to deal with whatever Y2K brings. While they are picking roadside weeds that they know to be good eating, Mr. Deckert's snipers would be the ones who want your cans of Dinty Moore Beef Stew. Of course, not all immigrants come from a third world country and, those that do, do not necessarily come from the lower classes. Rich people and persons of noble family and wealth also immigrate here.

Will immigrant and foreign-speaking communities in the US be impacted more severely by possible Year 2000 Technology Problems? It may be likely that Y@K hits them harder because they seem to have fewer information resources to alert them to coming problems and to help them prepare for the various scenarios. If you have concern for these human beings, you could help in the awareness effort by translating information or contributing money, time, or management to this end.

What about other groups? Are you a part of the solution or a part of the problem? Do you add bulwarks to the great wall of racial division or are you tearing down the wall? Do you really know what's on the mind of a black American in the inner city? What if that person has a Ph.D, makes more money than you, and has more moral character than you? Why were they living downtown? Maybe, because they were a role model and an active citizen in the community. Maybe, they were in the inner city because they are a better person than you ever amounted to.

This is not quite how I wanted to deal with the apparent problem of racism, ethnocentrism, and Y2K... and I'm sorry that I didn't deal with this better. I just returned from the Easter Vigil Mass where someone very close to me was confirmed and became a full member of our church. Among those being confirmed were people of many colors and cultures. These are good people and they are my brothers and sisters now. Returning and finding the offending post was frustrating to say the least. Come on people, let's try to be human... to be the best that is in our humanity. Without our humanity, we are nothing at all.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), April 03, 1999

Answers

You sound like a Klintonite liberal to me. Lets face it, hardworking Christians are fed up with liberals in this country and the fact that minorities suck up our tax dollars.

I don't care if y2k plows liberals and minorities over. I only fear GOD and am doing the best for myself and my family. I am taking responsibility. The liberals and klintonites should look after themselves instead of yelping for help.

Y2k was foretold in the BIBLE, and we are all prepared and looking forward to it. No more listening to that sex maniac in the white house with all his wars to "help" people I never even met. Finally we'll clean this country out!

-- Jackson (jak@tentx.com), April 04, 1999.

Stan,

You have to understand that conservatives, Christian fundamentalists, Libertarians and white, middle-class techies comprise a significant proportion of this forum. As an aggragate, this demographic is among the more racist element extant.

You think religion is a hot-button around here? Don't even think about discussiing the racial implications of Y2K---unless you want more responses like that above. Remember, online, you don't have to take responsibility for what you say. So the truth in one's heart is more frequently heard here. It ain't always pretty.

Will the good people on this forum (and you know who you are)please, please, prove me wrong?

Hallyx

"No matter how cynical we become, it's never enough to keep up" --- Jane Wagner and Lily Tomlin

-- Hallyx (Hallyx@aol.com), April 04, 1999.

Stan,

In answer to part of your question:

I didn't respone to the post becase the question of the Mexican Army invading Texas is just too ludricious to bear serious reflection. And living in Texas most of my life has taught me that there ARE for better or worse ethnic division here that run deep. How much of the population is involved? Not many I think.

One cannot deny the obvious. But to view race "wars" as an overarching problem is to give them to much power, at least here in Texas. I (a white guy) have too many Mexican friends Mexican neighbors, Mexican co-workers - and yes - Mexican relatives, and I believe I understand Texas culture as well as the next guy, to believe race "wars" will envelope Texas.

This is a dual cultured place. No, that's not exactly true. It is a multi-cultured place. (We'd have been allright if they just hadn't let in those pesky Scots and Irish.)

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), April 04, 1999.

Christians, clean your house, as Stan is trying to recommend here. The way many of you speak and think attracts the type of nutcase in the response above this, who has nothing to do with the Jesus who actually lived.

The writer of that response has Christianity mixed up with hyper- Americanism of the Klannier ilk, with a creepy incoherence that makes you wonder what kind of medications they're handing out at the Young Republican rallies these days.

One of the disappointments of y2k prep for our family was moving out of a highly mixed neighborhood of immigrants and ethnic minorities to a farm in a very white county.

Immigrants I know have four things going for them.

They transact in cash and will withdraw and conserve cash sooner and lose less in stock market collapse and bank runs.

They eat, shop, and live more simply and will fall less far in economic status than Anglo- and other white Americans.

Their "family values" i.e. tradition of strengthening the family above the individual could teach the rest of us a great deal.

They have come from chaotic national conditions and know not to trust governments and know that things can fall apart quickly, thus, they need to prepare.

As for Black Americans, we were surrounded by three black churches. Sunday mornings were a music-fest. I wonder if any study has shown black Americans attending church in a higher percentage than whites?

I expect that family and church bonds go deeper in black America than most white Americans know from their precious stereotypes.

We thought it was safest to be out of the city. We tried to be realists, not racists. We knew we might be targeted and not able to overcome our own "minority" status as whites in "that part of town".

But I'll bet there will be surprising stories and histories coming out of the cities whatever the y2k scale turns out to be. Watch and listen for them.

-- jor-el (jor-el@krypton.com), April 04, 1999.

Well, needless to say, Hallyx and Greybear hit their "Submit" buttons before I did. Sorry, guys -- not you I was referring to...

-- jor-el (jor-el@krypton.com), April 04, 1999.

Jackson, if that's a model of a true, conservative, white Christian, then we nonChristian liberals, who still believe in helping poor people with our taxes, (but detest corporate welfare) and believe that other races are human beings just like us, are in more trouble than I suspected.

Hallyx, I love your quote. Just thinking of Lily Tomlin adjusting her bra strap, while talking on the phone, makes me chuckle.

Greybear, I lived in West Texas for many years, my son was born there, and I was surprised at the depth of undercurrents of racial feeling. You're right, it was multi-cultural, but "war." Nah.

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), April 04, 1999.

Libertarians are racists? Holy cow Halyx, where the hell did you come up with that one? And all this time I was thinking that you were smart!

Racists? Puhleeeez!

Stick to topics you know something about.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), April 04, 1999.

Why not spend a few minutes reading what real Libertarians believe.

Libertarian Party Website

Then come back here and post some quotes of wacky Libertarian racist positions.

Please.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), April 04, 1999.

oncebitten@twiceshy.com), April 04, 1999.

One last try, then I quit!

Sweating now for a victory

-- Me again, it's early! (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), April 04, 1999.

What was the point of all this?

-- Unc (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), April 04, 1999.

Having worked for 18 years as a state social worker with all the races, I am of the opinion that given a 'little' social disorder, the envy, resentment and hatred the hispanics and especially blacks have towards the whites will become obvious to you liberal-love-alls. If you had to work around them on a daily basis, you would know they are more racist than whites. They have Not bought the 'love your neighbor crap' They know how humans act when there are shortages. You arm- chair know-its are in far an unpleasant surprise.

-- Y2Kcouldbethestraw (NotTexas@ButPlentyofRacism.net), April 04, 1999.

Fact #1: In the US, whites will become a minority in about 30 years. Whites are already a minority in California.

Fact #2: Most of the groups displacing whites in the US are hispanic and African.

Fact #3: There is no hispanic or African nation on this planet with a standard of living comparable to the US.

Fact #4: The US standard of living will fall to that of a 3rd-world ("Developing Nation" in PC-speak) in a generation or two if current demographic shifts persist.

Fact #5: This can only be changed by the elimination of 3rd-world immigration to the US.

-- NoFriendOfBill (NoFriendOfBill@NoFriendOfBill.com), April 04, 1999.

A very insightful post, Stan. It's my hope that we Americans all deal with whatever problems we face TOGETHER, as AMERICANS--not as seperate hyphenated Americans (eg., Afro-american, hispanic-american, euro- american, native american, gay american, conservative american, liberal american, oddball american, etc). Hell, I hope we can all deal with it together as children of God and citizens of the world. Screw the borders.

Still, it is a reality to say that divisions and barriers still exist. These barriers may or may not be a problem (depending on your perspective and values), but we all need to talk about them. The PC climate of being so paranoid as to tippy-toe on eggshells around these issues doesn't help foster the vision you and I have. On the other hand, hyping up fears about a y2k "race war" doesn't help anything either. That's paranoia too.

I really really wish that there was a broader demographic represented on this list. It certainly does seem like it's mostly comprised of posters who are white, male, middle class, and protestant. If more blacks, women, or hispanic people posted I think we'd have a lot more fresh insights and character here. The discussions would be livelier, more entertaining, and ultimately would help more people get prepared.

Now I'll don my asbestos and duck the inevitable flames. By the way, I'm not a Clintonista. I'm a libertarian who still believes that there is--to borrow a PC cliche--"Strength in Diversity."

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), April 04, 1999.

Stan:

For many people, the middle ground can't erode because it never existed. These people still live in a world of preschool morality, where the good guys never do anything wrong, and the bad guys never do anything good. Everything is reduced to a binary situation, black and white.

As Walter John Williams wrote, "The deluded are filled with absolutes, the rest of us must deal with ambiguity."

Whenever you have a free-association forum like this, you'll see these dichotomies superimposed over complex situations. Xenophobes hate anyone 'different', the more clearly defined and visible the difference (color, language, etc.) the greater the hatred. We have GI's and DGI's, implying that those who don't agree simply don't understand. Pollys and doomers and nothing in between.

Racism is just an epiphenomenon - a side effect of the difficulty people have grappling with complexity, with ambiguity, with continua. We lump people and organizations into either the 'good' or 'bad' category, then project onto them all of the other attributes we assign to these categories, whether they apply or not. We confuse the map with the territory itself.

What's most depressing to me is, we then defend our inappropriate and inapplicable categories so vigorously. We reject facts that don't fit, and accept (of invent!) absurdities that do fit. The alternative is to be threatened with doubt, or to be required to change our minds. And for many, that's no longer possible.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), April 04, 1999.

Ms. Hallyx says:

>>You have to understand that conservatives, Christian fundamentalists, Libertarians and white, middle-class techies comprise a significant proportion of this forum. As an aggragate, this demographic is among the more racist element extant. <<

This comment is so un-Hallyx, I must first question the identity of the poster. There is *no way* that either of the quoted statements is anything more than an *opinion.* That opinion reveals its own measure of bias and bigotry. Prove you wrong? Kindly present the data used to determine the demographics for this forum and for the "aggragate" (sic). I am especially interested how you arrived at the racial mix.

-- Elbow Grease (Elbow_Grease@AutoShop.com), April 04, 1999.

My opinion of immigrants is that they are among the hardest-working, hardiest, cleverest, and most adaptable people I've ever seen. These are precisely the traits that a "survivalist" tries to cultivate in him/herself. And yet survival is second nature to the immigrant.

Survival is also second nature to a new kind of human--the Third World Shantytown denizen. Such squattters are so clever at surviving in makeshift settings that they deserve a lot of credit. These are conditions is where a majority (or close to a majority) of our world's 6 billion people live. We of course would be shocked to find how uncomfortable it would be if we looked outside of Bombay or Mexico City, but them, getting along in the "urban jungle" is second nature...If evolution is still going on in the human race, this is where it is taking place. Traits such as intelligence, resistance to disease and starvation, and mobility are being rapidly selected for in the gene pool; but that's just my speculation.

So if you are really concerned about surviving y2k, maybe we should spend time listening to what other people around the world do to survive rather than building huge barricades and perimeters to shut them out.

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), April 04, 1999.

My experience has shown me that how people "are" when they are not under undue stress, is how they "are" when the pressure is on. Their beliefs, attitudes and behaviors tend to be consistent over time,...The unthinking use of ethnic stereotypes, and the purposeful use of xenophobic slurs are part of that. Institutional racism, ethnocentrism are puzzling and saddening to me. My daddy taught me that you judge people by their consistent behaviors, not by their attire, their socioeconomic status, or the color of their skin, hair, eyes, etc. But some people's kids get taught fear and hate, and fear and hate becomes who they are. A rotten legacy, no matter how you look at it. As Forest Gump was heard to say: "Stupid is as stupid does." Don't let the bad apples chase you away, Stan.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), April 04, 1999.

I wasn't even going to touch this one, it not only hot, it's corrosive, sticks to your hands, and smells bad.

In a way, this forum is a stick poked into a nest of fire ants. It deals with a very disturbing topic, Y2K and what MIGHT happen as a result. Everyone's life pattern is POTENTIALLY at risk. We're all more or less shook up, each in our own way. Threads like this one -- and several others that have gone before -- demonstrate some of the effects.

Luckily, not everyone reacts by lashing out at others.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), April 04, 1999.

With the names we're using to post we don't know who is who. As a prepapring y2k minority...conservative middle-class,yuppish(haven't heard that one yet) poster, I am sticking to issue of y2k. I realize there are differnces in our opinions and backgrounds and at the moment I don't not have the notion or time to debate them. We know they exist. Actually, it's good to know how people REALLY think since we're not doing a "face-to-face". In preparing for y2k I have met and networked with some people who I know for not y2k I'd never would have met. Because of our common ground of y2k prepartions I got to them and they me as what we are AMERICANS. This post is not meant to be a flame to anyone. I do still want to know what do you all think I need to take in my bug-out bag since I probably will have to work before, during and after the rollover? See my post on "Job Resposibities". Thanks

Quietly Lurking

-- quietly lurking (quietly@preparing.com), April 04, 1999.

The shrill posts to this thread simply prove how opinionated and prejudiced most people are. Hallyx writes that "conservatives, Christian fundamentalists, Libertarians and white, middle-class techies" are racists. In seeking to show how tolerant and anti-racist she is, Hallyx succumbs to bigotry also, just of another type.

The truth is that there are racial and ideological divisions in this country, and they will be made worse by Y2K-induced problems. All the politically correct "Newspeak" in the world won't matter when times get tough. Pretending it doesn't exist isn't going to make one bit of difference; reality will overwhelm the fantasy world that most of the "enlightened" inhabit.

Regardless of the technological advancement we've seen in the last couple of centuries, human nature hasn't changed. The Balkan situation is a prime example of this. These groups have hated and fought each other for centuries, and continue to do so.

Should Y2K result in serious problems, will there be examples of people of all races working together to help one another? Of course there will be. But don't think that there won't also be instances of abuses by one ethnic or ideological group against another. History and human nature show that these things WILL happen.

I'd like to see an honest discussion of this topic, not the PC-laced swill most people pour forth due to societal conditioning. Talking about these things doesn't make one a racist; it simply makes one a realist.

-- Roger (roger@wilco.con), April 04, 1999.

Hhhmmm. Guess Ashton & I don't really fit in. We haven't figured out what label we are politically, except "Disgusted By All Of It." "None of the Above."
We haven't had time to figure out if we're libertarian, conservative, ican, atic, ism, istic, or ostic.

We are economically in the lowest probably 2%. Ethnically, we're just of boring aging WASP-ancestor-types that we don't feel any particular identity with.
We "work-in" all sorts of dwellings, with all sorts of people, from the fantastic mansions of the very rich and famous, to the trailer parks of those nobody even knows exist -- and we've had this nomadic existence for 26 years now.
We have a storage apt in a low-income complex which is really nice and populated heavily with immigrants/cityzzzzns of all colors. We enjoy watching the medley of children playing -- lots of children who get along, happy and exuberant. The adults behave themselves civilly but are unfriendly and won't look at each other. Don't know why. We are friendly! We also are self-educated. Formal education or ivy time gave way to survival. I started working when I was 11.

We feel no racial anything, no pride or prejudice or even opinions really. For all the diversity in looks, human behavior appears pretty much the same, with people struggling to find semi-satisfying work that pays the rent and feeds the kids and keeps everybody clothed. Guess we're all at such a basic level of subsistence that we've become a bit homogenized.

Ah, now I know what we are! We are the village idiots! We don't fit in anywhere, and no peg will hang us, and no group accepts us.

Funny, though, how at all times we are acutely aware of our intense never-ending relationship with our Heavenly Father, our Creator, even though no 'religion' label sticks. Our self-identity is joyously upheld and enriched by that ever-new infinite Divine Romance with the King of Bliss.

Ah yes, we are the happy-go-lucky odd village idiots, who may get massacred by the tense race-conscious co-inhabitant of our corner of the universe, but we have no evidence our neighbors harbor anything more evil than a sullen dullness in their approach to living. Who knows? At this point we don't even really care anymore. We just try to do our best and watch all the patients and families and doctors and nurses and priests declare us angels, while we tremble in awe, fear and magnetic attraction to the Angel of Death, who they don't seem to see, even when He passes over the patient while all are gathered around and the patient's eyes upturn in response.

Well, we are probably the Forum Idiots too. Stan, we are sad you were offended, especially after Easter. The whole racial thing is incomprehensible to us. We just pray all come to know the joy within that bubbles and inundates from the soul, and the awesome glorious entertaining world that is waiting in the core of each human if they would but turn their attention inward and upward with devotion.

Ashton & Leska in Cascadia, village & Forum idiots

xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), April 04, 1999.

If I can remember right, all of us here except the Native Americans came here own our own to get away from another country or was brought here. So we are all Americans. One big melting pot. No one race is better then another. You have good and bad people in every nationality.

-- Marty (xxx@Webtv.net), April 04, 1999.

Coprolith said what I wanted to say: "It's my hope that we Americans all deal with whatever problems we face together, as Americans..." I'm neither a Clitonite nor a liberal, read my book if you don't believe me: "Black and Right: The Bold New Voice of Black Conservatives." I really do appreciate the thoughts of most of those who responded to my awkward and very emotional message; several people raised some interesting questions and issues that I would like to read more about in this forum. While I think the last thing that this forum needs (or Ed Yourdon for that matter) is for people to assume that this place is mostly crawled with by kooky militia-type racists, I certainly did not mean to imply this by my posting. While there may be kooky militia-type racists (religious and non-religious), the value of this forum derives from the insights and thoughtfulness of quite a few intelligent people that do care about other human beings (neighbors!) and how these neighbors might prepare.

Now, I understand that conceptualizing the multi-dimensional challenge of a Y2K disaster may be both helpful in making preparations for your family and reassuring against the stress and fears of a potential Y2K disaster. And I think these things should be discussed. The question in my mind is how to have these conversations without spitting, without alienating participants in the conversations, and *with* participants of different backgrounds and people with expertise on and experience of different communities-- especially in a forum in which some participants may not understand the importance of taking responsibility for what they write. I believe that this forum is capable of (1) conversing thoughtfully on "race wars" or other similar hot topics and (2) self-regulating conversations so that they may be worthwhile to new and old forum members-- whatever their background, beliefs, and habits.

Can you just ignore the kooks? On the one hand, I generally avoid posts with topics that do not seem relevant or just don't interest me. On the other hand, I wonder how many folks are misinformed, whose opinions are misformed, or whose misformed opinions are fueled by the kooks. At what point are we obligated (if we are obligated) to take responsibility for the things written by others and posted to this forum? Depending on your "ownership" of this forum and your feelings about free speech, each of you will make (or has made) a decision about what needs or doesn't correction. In general, I think quite a few of you do take "ownership" of this forum (GIs and DGIs). Things will slip by, now and then. But for those that have the time and gumption, you might try to be more consciously aware of the value of your stewardship of this special forum. I'll try too (and more gently in the future)-- if you don't mind.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), April 04, 1999.

What picks my bum more than the occasional bigot, is the complete institutionalization of racism in acedemia today. The liberals claim to be against racism but they preach collectivism and denounce the individualism.

This is the root of the racial problems in the west - not a bunch of KKK dudes wearing white hoods.

College campuses are being voluntarily segregated because blacks have been told repeatedly that they are victims, and whites have been taught that they are the oppressors. Do you see collectivism at work here? They ascribe victimhood or villany on an entire group without regard for the acts of the individuals involved.

Professors are busy teaching the black man that his logic is different from the DWEM's (dead white european males). If a black tries to "act white" he is denounced as an "Uncle Tom". Thanks to multiculturalism people are being taught that they have no value apart from their ethnic heritage. We're taught that individual achievement is a myth and that the group is all.

I say that the source of our racial problems is not the KKK but the univerisities that teach collectivism. Much of which stems directly from the west's most famous philosopher Immanuel Kant.

-- Ken Stauffer (kjs@stauffercom.com), April 04, 1999.

My maternal grandmother came off the boat from Austria at Ellis Island as a child. She was a hard working, strong, faithfull person who ended up supporting 3 children alone after her husband (my grandfather) died prematurely from a heart attack. She put all those children through college without a dime of welfare or government aid. She rose above her situation by the strength of her character and her faith in God. I have an incredible amount of admiration for her. She has always been my role model.

And what about that old black woman in Mississippi? that did laundry all those years and saved all that money that will now be used for scholorships for children that would otherwise not have a chance at advanced education?

And what about that immigrant man, I believe he was Haitian, that was one of two that stopped to help a Florida State trooper that was downed at an accident scene by a drunk driver? He and another citizen risked their lives to pull accident victims and the trooper out of burning wreckage while thousands drove by, some screaming obscentites, for being held up in traffic.

Virtue comes in all colors and ethnicities. Ugliness knows no particular boundaries. I agree with the writer that said that they were taught as a child to judge a person by their actions. I was too. This isn't some 80s-90s PC pablum. This was a lesson taught to me in the late 50s and early 60s by my parents. Hardly a PC era.

I am saddened by the intolerance of persons based upon superficial things such as race, sex, birth country, political ideology etc. I think the intolerances should be leveled at evil deeds, theft, murder, violence, hatred, victimization of the weak...the things that society and the ten commandments pretty much agree are bad things.

I would hardly want some of the posters that are happy to see liberals, other races and ethnic persons die as my neighbor. The people that perpetrate these ideas are the ones I that I am intolerant of. What has happened to these angry people? What does it look like in their dark little world? I'd suggest that the bitterness lies in entitlement issues (their entitlements) but then that's another topic altogether. If some of the comments above are any indication, we will have to have a powerful paradigm shift in the USA to not be caught in the same condition as the Serbs, Croats, Muslims, Albanians et al, sometime in the future as positions polarize away from the middle.

And finally, as some sage once said, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." If the above ideology makes me a posey sniffing, bleeding heart liberal, then as God is my witness, I am happy to be one.

-- Ramp Rat (Aviation_R_us@noname.nocity), April 04, 1999.

I don't think "kooks" should be ignored. Most of the world would probably classify us as kooks (both GI and DGI on this forum). The people who are looked upon as radicals, weirdoes, nuts and kooks are sometimes right.

Please don't think that I side with the poster, Jackson. He is truly a wacko of the highest order. Racism simply doesn't make any sense. I've lived a fairly sheltered Midwestern life, but I imagine that the true racists are minorities in all races. The few vocal racists that I have met have been both stupid and filled with hypocrisy.

I don't believe that this negates the possibility of "race wars." There are a large number of groups, black, white, Hispanic, etc. that would love it. I'm just hoping that the majority of people will have the sense not to participate. This is just another potential wrench in the machine.

-- d (d@dgi.old), April 04, 1999.

My sincere apologies are hereby tendered to the forum. Having had my one of my hot-buttons pressed by Jackson's immoderate post, I reflexively and inappropriately engaged in activities I deplore: stereotyping and labelism.

And, with a couple of exceptions, I must say how delighted I am by the measured, thoughtful, sometimes soulful reponses that ensued. I should not have been surprised. Why don't encounter people such as you in my daily life? Confirmed is my appreciation of the intelligence, toleration and kindness of those who have contributed to this thread---and gentleness, for not raking me over the coals.

Hallyx

[Donning hair-shirt and writing on the blackboard] I will not troll this forum. I will not troll this forum. I will not...

-- Hallyx (Hallyx@aol.com), April 04, 1999.

Hallyx,

It is hard to avoid being caught in the emotional stress that Y2K forces upon us. Don't feel any shame in that reflex. Jackson was wrong and needs to be told so. The racists that I met in high school had never even met anyone of the race that they hated so much. My hometown had only a handfull of people who were not white.

I never met any racists at art school.

"Tell me who's the real patriot The Archie Bunker slobs waving flags Or the people with the guts to work for some real change

Rednecks and bombs don't make us strong We loot the world yet we can't even feed ourselves our real test of strength is caring Not the war toys we sell to the world"

Dead Kennedys Frankenchrist

-- d (d@dgi.old), April 04, 1999.

Hallyx- Again- Libertarians are not racists. I don't have a clue where you got that from- it's the second time i've seen you post such a statement- but again- I suggest you take the time to read about the Libertarian idea. I think you'll be suprised.

-- anita (hillsidefarm@drbs.com), April 04, 1999.

That's OK Halyx, we all post in haste at times. Except for me of course. Since I don't have any hot buttons, and because I am always happy and considerate of the feelings of others, I never stick my foot in my mouth ;)

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), April 04, 1999.

Uncle Deedah, Greybear, Leska, etc...

I really wish that I could meet you people. I don't believe you have any concept of how much you really do help. I'm just a young guy who is scared out of my head. You folks really help me keep things in perspective. Truely, I really appreciate your postings. Keep it up.

Sorry for the "warm fuzzy" post but I just want to give credit to you folks. It can get lonely when you're trying to be a leader.

-- d (d@dgi.old), April 04, 1999.

Thanks, d, I like the "warm fuzzies!" Helps just as I'm about to go recharge after our usual post-job exhaustion. Postings sort of go in waves, and ebbs are good too so we have ooomph when the tide of events sweep us back to the Forum. If the world would just pause now so we can get some other stuff done ...

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 04, 1999.

Two of the biggest 'debunkers' of Y2k also happen to have little use for immigrants. Remember that when you see intolerant messages here. I believe God gave non-WASPs souls too.

-- Bystander (canoefun79@aol.com), April 04, 1999.

Hallyx, sooner or later we all get in the hot seat. Frankly I don't know why everyone got their shorts in such a twist over your post--must have hit a nerve. I didn't think it fit me, except for the "white, Libertarian," part, but then I didn't take offense to it.

As my English friend says, "Keep your pecker up." (meaning your chin up.)

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), April 04, 1999.

Quoting Uncle Deedah,...." Except for me of course. Since I don't have any hot buttons, and because I am always happy and considerate of the feelings of others, I never stick my foot in my mouth ;)"

(guffaws heard in the backround) Never, Uncle?

And...I council this constantly and sometimes I fail at it myself...whenever you get the adrenalin rush that comes before firing off a witty retort to some questionable post,...breathe first...about 30 seconds is good...a minute is better. Then post if you must/want. For a great discourse on breathing as coping read Island by Aldous Huxley. You'll have to read a lot of really great stuff before getting to the breathing part, by the way.

Hallyx,...most of the "scuse mes" we need in life need to come from ourselves. I have always loved your posts, and just figured you might be needing a good night's sleep.

She who loves to catch herself being human.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), April 04, 1999.

Stan,

what you saw in that other thread, and *some* (the racist bits) of what you are seeing here in this thread is the result of a conservative effort by a minority of white racists belonging to a cult which refers to itself privately as "Israel Identity" and publicly as "Christian Identity", though they are in fact neither Israeli nor Christian. They are the American descendants of an extremely racist 19th century British cult known as 'British Israelism' which attempted to twist Judeo-Christian Scriptures into supporting the ludicrous claim that anglo-saxons are really the Jews of Biblical times... yeah, I know...hard to believe anyone would fall for that, but they do...especially since the cult is most popular among the neonazi groups ('national front', aryan nations, etc) here in the states.

One of the goals of the cultists, as well as of the neonazi groups which fund their activities, is to generate as much racial conflict as possible. You see the neonazis realize that no sane person would ever support their agenda, and so their methodology is one of divide and conquer. One of the ways that said neonazis attempt to engender such conflict is by spreading rumors of purported racially associated threats in some areas of the country.

One of the ways that they do this is to reprint-rebroadcast racist propaganda issued by their racist counterparts in other ethnic groups. Keep in mind that there are probably only about 150,000 neonazis in the US, and probably not that many more hard core followers of any other racist group (Nation of Islam, the La Raza folks in the southwest, or whoever). None the less, since there is no positive message any of these groups can employ, they can only attempt to generate support through fear, and they do so by echoing each other's messages of hatred.

No true Christian can ever support racism. ever. It's theologically impossible. (though it's not "the best that is in our humanity" that eliminates that possibility.)

Hal - no sweat - I've shot my mouth, er, keyboard, off on this forum often enough not to be in a position to take offense at you being owly on what is obviously an incendiary topic.

Arlin

[who is a conservative Christian, and who will shortly have two step children of mixed racial parentage.]

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), April 04, 1999.

I really wish all that you have posted I agreed with, Arlin, but I think it is more than fringe groups. I think people in the West are being sold wholesale fear of so many people and things. I think racism is kept in the public eye, on purpose by governments. Fearful people can be ruled. If they can keep the in-fighting up they can keep eyes deflected off government. It is a strategy that has worked for countless centuries.

Hate and fear is learned. It is kept alive by constant reinforcement; much of which is done by the corporate media acting as propaganda machine for governments who, in turn, support the corporate media. The misled are misled because they are not taught to understand how scintillating and hypnotic the marketing of 'news' is,...how we are sold illusions daily and hourly; they are not taught to question any of it. Institutional racism is not about fringe groups...it is about the loudspeakers that declare daily with little conviction that we are all "equal"...a patent lie in the world system. Rwandans are ignored and Albanians are rescued? Equality? BS.

For a fun night of satirical social commentary on the power of subtle and hidden influences go to your video store and rent, "They Live",..a classic John Carpenter film.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), April 04, 1999.

DAMN! You people are GOOD!

You take a risky don't-touch-this thread and turn it into a work of art and wisdom.

No wonder the trolls don't stick around very long.

-- jor-el (jor-el@krypton.com), April 05, 1999.

Arlin,

[who is a conservative Christian, and who will shortly have two step children of mixed racial parentage.]

Christian Identity people are racist?

Since Bible Preaching is Forbidden on this forum, and I agree, I think it is highly inappropriate to label Identity People as RACIST. Do I understand I belong to a Race? Of course, and you know your race or mixture, whatever.

I could take you through a search and prove my point but for now study this little coincidence.

Just for fun go to a Hebrew/English Lexicon and look up the words Brit, and then look up the word ish.

Brit is the modern version of Beriyth . beriyth, ber-eeth'; from H1262 (in the sense of cutting [like H1254]); a compact (because made by passing between pieces of flesh):--confederacy, [con-]feder[-ate], covenant, league.

Ish is the modern version of 'iysh

376. 'iysh, eesh; contr. for H582 [or perh. rather from an unused root mean. to be extant]; a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation):--also, another, any (man), a certain, + champion, consent, each, every (one), fellow, [foot-, husband-] man, (good-, great, mighty) man, he, high (degree), him (that is), husband, man [-kind], + none, one, people, person, + steward, what (man) soever, whoso (-ever), worthy. Comp. H802.

Isn't it interesting that the term British actually means Covenant People.

It is true that people label me a Racist for speaking out on this forum but as any true student of the Bible would know "there is neither Jew nor Greek, male or female...". God judges on merit and not on Race.

Enough!

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), April 05, 1999.

I meant speaking out on this subject, not forum.

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), April 05, 1999.

Donna B: "They Live"--now THERE'S a movie! "Sleep. Obey. Don't Think..."

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), April 05, 1999.

I have been reading this forum to gain a better idea of what to expect with the Y2K problem. Reading your opinions of race relations has severly detracted from your credibility of possible Y2K results. Thats too bad, makes me want to be a recluse even more. You were called arm-chair love-alls earlier. Perhaps you are just converted couch TV potatoes now killing time on the internet.

-- Listening to the Scratching (Comprehend@BS.com), April 05, 1999.

Stan -

In case you haven't signed off this thread completely, I just wanted to say that I appreciated your post and will look up your book. I've watched Justice Thomas on CNN a few times and am always conscious of the pain that he obviously still experiences from the attacks during his confirmation (and afterward.) Being "Black and Right" (to use your term) is clearly still a perilous path to walk at present.

My immediate neighbors consist of a black couple and their two little girls, a young white couple and their newborn daughter, and a couple of Filipino navy files with one's mom living with them (and two nephews who are always around.) We already know each other pretty well (and two of those households are prepping); come Y2K, we may get to know each other a whole lot better.

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), April 05, 1999.

I thought that I'd keep getting emails when new posts were added to this thread, but I guess not. Is there something wrong with my email or is that how the forum works? More proof positive that there are more than a few intelligent people here who do care about other human beings: I revisted this thread in the archive and enjoyed reading most of the posts that I didn't know were added to the thread. Maybe, this thread is just getting started. I'll check back from time to time.

My last post: I didn't mean to (1) plug my book of essays by and about black conservatives or (2) imply that being a "liberal" was a bad thing. I know many on the left-side, enjoy their friendship as much as debating their ideas, and have a strong liberal arts education to blame for that rare erroneous conclusion (when I make one). Mac, the first essay in "Black and Right" is by Justice Thomas, I think. Well, I hope that I remember these little details correctly!

I'm still wondering what "Listening to the Scratching" meant? LS wrote: "Reading your opinions of race relations has severly detracted from your credibility of possible Y2K results. Thats too bad, makes me want to be a recluse even more..." Do you know something we don't, LS? Back in 1994? when I was heading Project 21, an African American leadership initiative sponsored by a Republican media response tank, I received word from the Street that there was going to be a national "kill as many whiteys as you can" day by youngish and angry African American hate groups. It never happened, and these angry kids were so serious. I don't see this kind of thing happening on Y2K, myself.

As for inner city gangs, they have all sorts of problems including business as usual (territory wars) and trying to have a good time. At what point would and could they leave the city and effectively target suburbanites or survivalist joe/jane in the country? Gangbangers have families too: moms and dads, brothers and sisters, and lovers and children. How many gangbangers would become Mad Max hooligans and how many gangs would remain intact for forays in the suburbs and beyond? How much ammunition and firepower would they have? Not much is my guess. Their neighbors would be right to worry about gangbangers, but those outside the city (even a few miles) wouldn't have to worry for some time. How long that "some time" is poses interesting speculation.

Not familiar with the KKK or other white supremicist groups, I'm not sure how they would intrepret and respond to Y2K. But would they really go out and raise hell instead of taking care of their loved ones if things get bad? Do they have nothing better to do than cause problems when they might be experiencing life problems at the same time? I'd like to think that they would be taking care of their own. It just seems that human nature would dictate that they try and survive bad times as best they can, instead of looking for trouble.

As we found out last week, it's those educated and professional folk in the D.C. metro stations that we have to worry about. It got pretty bad when the trains were delayed an hour. Just think if the trains were delayed for a few hours, a few days, or even a few weeks. It would be nasty. I wouldn't want to be in those stations when the trains are not moving to or from Washington, D.C. That's my opinion!

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), April 14, 1999.

"As much as one might wish it, he cannot simply bow out of a race war. You do not have to choose up sides to be a combatant. The other people will do it for you."

- Lieutenant Colonel Jeff Cooper, United States Marine Corps, Retired

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), April 14, 1999.