This question is nagging me more and more. Let's jump ahead a few spaces and consider this scenario: June/July 2000 (2001)... cities in major population centers in the Southwest (full of legal & illegal immigrants) totally dependent on gov't. services for survival ....infrastructure is almost non-existent....travel outside these areas is restricted.... racial combat begins because those with nothing to lose have "nothing to lose"..... radical Hispanic leaders decide on "ethnic cleansing" because their destiny is to regain "Aztlan" (southwest USA) for Hispanic rule (www.americanpatrol.com) and attempt to drive our much of the white population....prepared patriots decide to fight for their homeland (TX, AZ, etc.)....as reports of atrocities mount UN observers seek support from the int'l. community for "peacekeepers" to join the fray (after all, isn't this the way Clinton and his advisors decide how these conflicts need to settled?)....air support is needed; no problem, the German Luftwaffe is based at Holloman AFB in New Mex......remember our troops are over in the Bosnia/Kosovo/Albania quagmire....foreign troops are needed to quell the uprisings....martial law,etc. is needed for calm to prevail At this point it's sort of fuzzy but the key point is: IF WE'RE GOING TO LET THE NWO WAR MONGERS SET THEIR RULES OF ENGAGEMNET FOR PLACES LIKE KOSOSVO WE'D BETTER BE PREPARED TO ACCEPT THE SAME MEDICINE WHEN OUR TIME COMES! Understand that places like Kosovo is the experiment- ation lab for country destabilization. Our time is fast approaching!

-- Wm. Crown (gfc40@hotmail.net), April 03, 1999

Answers

This is exactly why we as a people need to stand firm behind the Second Amendment. If that goes, we all go kaput.

If it weren't for the brave souls of the NRA the freedom to protect ourselves on an individual basis would have been squashed back in 1950. Let's not let the federal government push us around any more. This year I'll be paying 28% in federal taxes. No choice do I have about how much I give them or where it goes. If we don't really get serious about this issue now then one day we'll wake up and the USA will be a police state. And then like WM theorizes, our Lady of Justice will turn on the hand that feeds her.

My notion is to organize a march on Boston Harbor next April 15 and dump tons of 1040EZ forms into the water, & to subsequently deny the federal government the ways and means of carrying out their warped global agendas for the year. I know it won't ever happen but that is my dream.

-- (~~@~~.com), April 03, 1999.

Y2K problems may do all this for us. Be careful what you wish for; at least have a workable alternative written out beforehand.

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 03, 1999.

I'm sure there are many people who live long, comfortable, and worried lives, and who go to their death thinking "But my paranoid fantasies (oops, I mean, 'realistic concerns') were *possible*. Honest!"

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), April 03, 1999.

And on the flip side Flint, there are alot of people who live relativley short, medically ill, opressed lives who go to their death beds thinking that there actually ARE places where people are FREE.

It all depends on which side of the fence you looking from. I suggest you lift up that curtain for a second and have a little chat with the American wizard.

-- (~~@~~.com), April 03, 1999.

Interesting scenario, Wm. And I understand the way things are set up for our military, we WOULD come under NATO control. One tiny discrepancy I would like to point out to you, though... LEGAL immigrants are NOT elegible for ANY government services. In order to qualify and apply for residency, they must meet stringent income or support guidelines. Aside from that, we will all be in the same boat as far as dependency on any sort of "public" services or utilities.

I too, have been watching Kosovo, and I have wondered if this could be a preview of the plight of some of us in the not-too-distant future as a result of Y2K failure.

-- just sunshine (lurkinghere@ho.me), April 03, 1999.

In February 1996 Alan Keyes said:

"I think we are coming close to the time when the republic will be gone... We are living in the generation where people living today will know consciously before they die that the American Republic has ended. I greatly fear this and believe it to be true."

-- Liddy Brite (STEAM_MAN@Hotmail.com), April 03, 1999.

-- Liddy Brite,

The Republic will change but it will not be gone! Think about the type of people who are pulling the strings! If anyone in government stands up to them they are usually destroyed in the press, or otherwise. These "leaders" are using us for their ends and will soon be gone, gone, gone.

"God Bless America Again, you must know the trouble she's in..."

We will be free!

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), April 03, 1999.

If southern california goes balkan, it will be the mother of all cluster fucks. Think rwanda, not kosovo. At least the LA riots were confined to a small portion of the central LA basin, allowing the authorities to pull in cops and guard units from the neighboring areas. They were relatively free from gun battles (mostly looting and lookey loos).

evabody got guns, nobaddy safe outside. hide in de basement bomb sheltah.

-- Les Cluster Gros (cluster@freaked.org), April 03, 1999.

- Les Cluster Gros,

We may be slow on the draft-up but when Americans wake up I do believe the world will see why we are Americans...people of the desolate places..."now inhabited".

-- slowtoanger (slowtoanger@america.ain'tleavin), April 03, 1999.

I see the US SW becoming another Kosovo, but not yet. I think there are 10-30 years to go. If TSFTF 1/1/2000, martial law should control the masses sufficiently.

Eventually, though, the US is doomed due to demographic shifts.

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@Anonymous99.xxx), April 03, 1999.

Just a reminder, there are not enough police, or military people to control the armed population of the United States. That's the way it should be.

-- SCOTTY (BLehman202@aol.com), April 03, 1999.

Scotty -

valid point...the only way the US will ever fall prey to martial law will be if the citizens actively cooperate with it...

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), April 03, 1999.

Scotty and Arlin:

I may have a semantic problem here. In a crises or emergency, wouldn't it be better if shooting and looting were kept to a minimum, and if people knew where to get food and water, and if such responses were quick and well organized? Do you really believe that confusion, anarchy, lawlessness and chaos represent the best public response to crisis?

I suppose if we dread the prospect of 'falling prey' to safety and organization, then of course let's all start shooting. After all, we know the government is out to get us and do awful things to us. But we're armed, so we're safe! (and besides, my neighbor makes noise late at night, and this would give me an opportunity to put a permanent stop to that).

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), April 03, 1999.

On concern about the gov't taking over, martial law, big brother and wars over Texas etc., I have to point out one small item:

There are many ways to gain control of a population, and our population is oblivious to most of the ones being used. For example, Texas is one of the only states that does not require gun registration. Since crime has been the main means of repealing assumed 'rights' and enforcing certain violations of privacy, principle etc., this is a big deal, and would make Texas more difficult to control I assume. And of course, if a state of people are more prone to using cash, to home schooling, things that usually take people "out of the loop" of tracking, it would be even more difficult.

But, there is a better way, you see. This Wednesday, unless a certain bill passes, there's a very good chance that a law will continue mandating -- without a parent's right to exclude or delay a child -- NEW vaccinations for infants and small chidren, for all kinds of things such as diarrhea, flu, et al. There is more to this than meets the eye, though, so bear with me.

An article from the AP wire read in part: NIH To Unveil Vaccine List By LAURAN NEERGAARD AP Medical Writer WASHINGTON (AP) - A new list of ``best buys'' in vaccine research highlights vaccines... [snip] The report, which is due out soon but was previewed at a vaccine meeting this week, is not a list of vaccines that doctors most want. Instead, it advises NIH and private companies how to determine which potential vaccines would bring the most bang for the investment buck - offering examples of ``best buys'' that could save both money and suffering. [end snip]

What is important here is that

(a) parents are NOT given the option even to delay having poison injected into their own children -- if you argue they could simply take your child away and put them in state custody; this sets a PRECEDENT which is more frightening than the situation itself;

(b) the continuing overt and astonishing denial of the whole medical community about the harm of many vaccinations [not just at the time, but in sudden diseases that didn't used to exist much if at all, like cerebral palsy, muscular dystrophy, on and on, that seem to fall out of the sky on perfectly healthy kids and teens, plus a demonstrated higher tendency to certain illnesses like really intense flues, bronchitis, pneumonia etc. in certain vaccine combinations [than non-vaccinated persons] -- the denial goes on (I wonder why, since the companies making billions off them are the same companies funding medical education and so forth); --

-- but the part that applies to this topic directly is

(c) if any given medical procedure is MANDATED FOR CHILDREN, with no exclusion option, that means that the federal government can then REQUIRE that EVERY child -- perhaps 18 and under? -- be registered with them and prove they have had these vaccinations. Give it 20 years and you have got, just like Hillary Clinton tried to create, a totally Big Brother Control scene -- all in the name of "health care."

Texas has fought to prevent even registering guns. But the people don't think about the fact that the medical angle actually allows FAR more control and tracking than that does, in its own way, and is a doorway to bigger things. And of course, the scary thing is, this is just the beginning -- this is in place and unless the option for exemption exists, it will be really easy to require anything. Home schooling, conscientious objection, no opportunity for human or parental rights will exist.

So, they could not reach Texas through the inhibit-crime approach, Texans apparently being a bit more suspicious than folks in other states, and a bit more determined to fight to retain certain rights. But they are going around the back door through "medicine" for "children" -- something that does not get the attention of any determined group like the NRA, and something presented in a way that makes anybody arguing look "weird" for suggesting that perhaps pouring poison into the nearly-no-immune system of a baby, so some chemical company can make money off it, is a bad idea. (Especially when half of them are new, and are for truly stupid things (diarrhea?!).)

I think people should, perhaps, give up the idea that there is really going to be any fight at all about the feds taking over 'from the inside' and denying rights, et al. They already are doing it, they already are planning more, but the general public only knows what the media tells them, and doesn't see the implications of ANY law that prohibits free will or choice being bad, etc. We've already lost this battle. May as well sit back and enjoy the ride.

Main Reference: This from Dawn Richardson, President of PROVE [Parents Requesting Open Vaccine Education]prove@swbell.net http://home.swbell.net/prove (web site)

"...Currently, 33 doses of vaccines for 9 different viral and bacterial illnesses are legally forced into Texas children by the time they are 5 years old. Many more are on the horizon including vaccines for chicken pox, diarrhea, strep throat, ear infections, and sexually transmitted diseases like Herpes and AIDS. Parents in Texas do not have the right to determine WHEN vaccines are given to their child, or IF they are given at all. It is time for that to change.

HB 1347 expands the vaccine exemption laws to guarantee the right of a parent to delay or decline an immunization for reasons of conscience. Parents are capable of making informed decisions about the health care of their children and must not be placed in a position in which exercising a conscientious objection to the administration of a vaccine means breaking the law.

Please support HB 1347 - Adding a Conscientious Exemption for Immunization in Texas.

(Send the above three paragraphs to the below people!) BEFORE APRIL 7TH.

Call them. Better to fax than email them (it counts for more "assumed people agreeing with this view" when measured against email).

State Representatives: House Fax: (512) 463-5896 Email: first.last@house.state.tx.us

State Senators: Senate Fax: (512) 463-0326 Email: first.last@senate.state.tx.us

[end of Dawn's stuff]

If people aren't willing to consider free choice, freedom from mandatory registration, etc. important in EVERY area of life, then they are going to be enslaved. Just as many people fighting for freedom have said, they fight for HUMAN rights and not (check one) rights, the only real road to freedom requires the conceptual understanding, and agreement, that some things are just wrong -- and many things are used, once established, to do yet more wrong, and sometimes 'setting a precedent' has to be viewed with more concern than the issue at hand.

I hope anybody in TX who sees this will take the time to bookmark PROVE's site -- they are working without funding, for something they believe in, and they provide legal forms and references and all kinds of great things on the site -- and at the very least, write a brief email to legislators encouraging support of this bill.

Seems unrelated to "freedom," but it's not -- at all.

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 04, 1999.