Some encouragement found at http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37054d2a3b14.htm

Time for America's remnant to stand strong

Washington Times - National Weekly Edition 12/7-13/98 Linda Bowles

The Washington Times - National Weekly Edition December 7 - 13, 1998 Linda Bowles

Most Americans grew up anchored in place by certain ideas and values. They organized their lives around them. There was consensus about right and wrong, and good and bad. They knew what the rules were, and moral guideposts clearly pointed in the direction they should go.

But somewhere along the way, somehow, somebody changed the rules and tore down the guide-posts.

Those institutions - marriage, family, religion, schools - which historically have preserved our social learning curves, and served as bulwarks against moral degeneration, are under broad attack and crumbling.

Alas, the American family is in tatters, the church is in denial, our schools have been infiltrated, and our nation has a leader with the political principles of Marx and the ethics of Nero.

It's relatively easy to maintain values and inculcate them in one's children if these values are supported and buttressed by popular heroes, media icons, political leaders and educators. It is another matter to keep the faith when there are fears that the moral center is not holding, when others around you are retreating and sounding the alarm that merciless, heathen hordes have won the day and are advancing.

Many social conservatives worry that their religious "walk" is out of step with the prevailing culture. They are no longer admired for their faith; they are castigated for it.

When in the middle of the din and clutter of current events and caught up in the passion of them, it is difficult to know what they mean. Are we experiencing a middle-age national crisis that will soon play itself out, or is this a momentous and enduring shift in the American character?

There are places to look for perspective and understanding. I found a new and priceless one in an extraordinary book, "The March of Freedom" (Spence Publishing Company, Dallas, Texas). It is a sampler of the writings of great conservative thinkers, beautifully put together by Edwin J. Feulner Jr., president of the Heritage Foundation.

There are 12 chapters, each one consisting of an essay by Mr. Fuelner on an architect of modern American conservatism, followed by an illustrative sample of his or her work.

The book is filled with inspirational and informative material. Much of it helps explain what is happening in our society. I was particularly impressed with the insights in an essay titled "Isaiah's Job", by the late scholar Albert Jay Nock.

Mr. Nock tells the story of Isaiah because he believes there is "something in it to steady and compose the human spirit until this tyranny of windiness be overpast."

The story takes place about 740 years before the birth of Christ. Mr. Nock uses common speech to paraphrase what happened. The Lord appears and gives instructions to Isaiah to warn the people of the wrath to come: "Tell them what a worthless lot they areTell them what is wrong, and why, and what is going to happen unless they have a change of heart and straighten up. Don't mince matters. Make it clear that they are positively down to their last chance. Give it to them good and strong and keep on giving it to them."

Then, the Lord adds, "I suppose perhaps I ought to tell youthat is won't do any good. The official class and their intelligentsia will turn up their noses at you, and the masses will not even listen. They will keep on in their own ways until they carry everything down to destruction, and you will probably be lucky if you get out with your life."

Puzzled, Isaiah asks the Lord what is the purpose of delivering a message to which no one will listen. The Lord explains, "Ahyou do not get the point. There is a remnant there that you know nothing about. They are obscure, unorganized, inarticulate, each one rubbing along as best he can."

The Lord continues, "They need to be encouraged and braced up, because when everything has gone completely to the dogs, they are the ones who will come back and build up a new society, and meanwhile, your preaching will reassure them and keep them hanging on. Your job is to take care of the remnant, so be off and get about it."

There are many conclusions and ideas that can be drawn from these passages. Here is mine, for the benefit of the remnant, whoever and wherever you are:

It requires soul-deep faith to stand strong and hold your place when raging winds are uprooting and scattering everything around you. If there is a temptation to cease the struggle and give way, keep in mind that the threatening winds may have been sent by a God who is about the business of separating the wheat from the chaff.

Linda Bowles is a nationally syndicated columnist

-- Texan (Helives@ranch.com), April 02, 1999

Answers

What crap. This country is in its present state because the majority of its inhabitants WANT IT THAT WAY... not because God ordains it so, and not due to a deep, dark plot, but because most people basically suck, want a free lunch, and are too stupid to realize that getting what they ask for will destroy them and those around them.

I also find the idea of a God, who destroys societies so that a mysterious "remnant" can rebuild them, to be totally abhorrent - it makes no sense whatsoever. This whole post sounds like something coming out of Scary Gary's camp (the same types who would make sure folks like me ended up as lampshades). Reminds me of these so-called missionaries who drag themselves and their families to some miserable backwater jungle to preach the "gospel", and eventually get run out by locals who see them for what they are, escaping by the skin of their teeth. They usually "witness" about their ouster with some garbage like "Well, I just thank the Lord for giving us a chance to escape, even though we lost everything and my son and wife died from dengue fever." The word "zealot" or "fanatic" hardly does this type justice. Wonder if they ever think that what happened to them was God's way of saying, "Mind your own business"?

Misguided, sick maggots.

-- sparks (wireless@home.here), April 02, 1999.

Thanks, Texan ! I think the winds of change are begining to rustle the leaves of the tree of life . When His hurricane of rath hits, the "chaff" WILL be blown away, and, as the air clears, the beleivers will know one another; our light can not be hidden under the basket of lies our leaders have weaved. The words of two men come to mind when I think of the the situation we face; Winston Churchill, who said " Never give up !" and Omar Kyam, who said " Be warned by my lot; which I know you will not !". Eagle ... Circling ... Watching .

-- Harold Walker (e999eagle@freewwweb.com), April 02, 1999.

Texan-

Thanks for posting that article! It's one of the best things I've read in a long time. I could not agree more. God bless the remnant.

Skeeter

-- Skeeter Sampson (Barsawmp@stumpwater.com), April 02, 1999.

Sparks,

Gee, tell us how you really feel!

It seems obvious by throwing so many issues into one paragraph, that you feel rather strongly about God.

This article does not allude to God ordaining suffering. The tenets of Christianity would totally agree with you when you state:

"This country is in its present state because the majority of its inhabitants WANT IT THAT WAY... not because God ordains it so, and not due to a deep, dark plot, but because most people basically suck, want a free lunch, and are too stupid to realize that getting what they ask for will destroy them and those around them."

Albeit, many would disagree about the "majority" part....let's say a large influential part of society. But God definitely does not ordain our disobediance to Him or the resultant suffering.

Concerning "Reconstructionisism", which I have read that Gary North adheres to that school of thought, I don't personally believe that doctrine. I just read the Bible and let the Holy Spirit teach. The Bible does mention the word "remnants". That fact, though, does not necessarily support the validity of reconstructionisism one way or the other.

If one reads the history of Israel in the Bible, there a definite pattern of God dealing with His people that emerges. The "sifting of chaff" pattern which one can see examples of happening to the immature , although somewhat innocent, (such as Joseph) and to the those that have truly wandered off to worshipping other gods (countless kings).

As far as the hapless missionaries' example you provide, there is no argument that many have been deceived, mislead, and some just tested. This is also mentioned numerous times in the Bible.

But don't take my word (or anyone else's, for that matter). Why don't you study the matter yourself in the Bible?

-- Texan (Helives@ranch.com), April 02, 1999.

Historically, there have been a few "guided" individuals who seem to have an understanding of the natural progression of nature. It's not necessarily "God" who destroys people, but, people who destroy people (I agree with you on that point). My point is this: if we study "nature" and history and gain knowledge and discernment, it allows us to come to logical conclusions and get a glimpse into the future.

We have the documented records of civilizations and world powers that have collapsed in the past. We now understand how and why they collapsed. In spite of this knowledge, our civilization has determined that we can "get away with" the same things that caused the collapse of previous civilizations and world powers. That is quite an arrogant attitude. This ignoring of the "ways of nature" will without a doubt have the same affect upon our civilization as our predecessors.

Some folks prefer to assign the acts of nature to God. This provides an understandable explanation for them which "fits" into their own belief structure. Even within their belief structure it would be fair to argue that God set nature in motion. And then it would be easy to argue that Nature and History repeat themselves.

Just as we can predict that if someone jumps off a 1000' cliff (without the benefit of a parachute or hang glider) he is probably going to inflict fatal trauma to his person. We can look at the past and see where we are headed.

We are the remnant.

-- WebRNot (webrnot@ncap13k.com), April 02, 1999.

Texan,

Thanks for the encouragement!

I'm saving this one. The book of Isaiah is my favorite book in the Bible. 42 my favorite chapter. Isaiah, is a literary masterpiece.

" there is "something in it to steady and compose the human spirit"

You should post this at Pastor Chris's!!

http: //greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Y2K%20Forum

Thanks again,

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), April 02, 1999.

Deborah, Skeeter, & "Eagle" Walker,

Glad you all enjoyed it. I thought it was rather incredible esp. coming from Washington Times.

Deborah, will post to other forum. Thanks for suggestion.

I think it'll be difficult to go through changes that seem to be come even faster upon us these days without that peace only that He can give.

-- Texan (Helives@ranch.com), April 02, 1999.

This thread should be required reading for all Y2K newbies. Can you spell FANATIC?

-- Helen Wheels (helen@ssdsfd.ppp), April 02, 1999.

" They are no longer admired for their faith; they are castigated for it."

Helen,

Thank you for so clearly illustrating one of the points of this eloquent article.

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), April 02, 1999.

Horseshit!

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), April 02, 1999.

"By their fruits ye shall know them" not their talk. There are other forums for this.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), April 02, 1999.

And I thought that you were a Believer, Uncle Deedah!!! If you were standing before the Lord God Almighty, would your response be "Horses--t" to Him? Do you know that He HEARS EVERYTHING and SEES EVERYTHING? Uh-huh! Yes, He does! Tonight Billy Graham reminded us that God keeps a record of ALL that we do and say, and some day we will have to go before Him.

-- Humbled-one (TheTruth@NothingbutTruth.com), April 02, 1999.

Uncle Deedah,

Was the horseshit respose directed to me? I want to make sure we didn't cross post before I reply.

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), April 03, 1999.

And the God who loves me, and who created me in his own image, and who gave me my mind in order that I may reason, and who sent his only son to die and absolve me of my sins will send me to a fate worse than death because I don't agree with all of the driven sprouted in his name?

HORSESHIT!

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), April 03, 1999.

No Deborah, not you.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), April 03, 1999.

And that should read "drivel sprouted in his name".

Oh yeah, for anyone out there who is unclear.

HORSESHIT!

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), April 03, 1999.

Uh, is THAT a "godly" response? I don't think so!

-- neighbor (Greetings@y2k.com), April 03, 1999.

When I see a bunch of "We the holy and wise await God's cleansing" nonsense, I call it as I see it. You are as free to disagree with me as I am to disagree with the writer of that article.

Oh, and BTW, I am a believer. I believe that the so called "Conservative Christians" have it wrong. Jesus was anything but a conservative.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), April 03, 1999.

overtired and therefore feeling just a tad confrontational:

for those who were underwhelmed with Linda Bowles column, I would submit:

1. Conservative Christians tend to have larger than average families.

2. While there is no way of knowing the exact statistics concerning y2k preparers, certainly for every one non-Christian family I know who is preparing, I can find two Christian families. We Christians are, after all, quite accustomed to being on the receiving end of the sort of bigotry and irrational hatred espoused by Sparks in his 'lampshades' remark above. We're also accustomed to people allowing their ego to get in the way of reality (a la webrnot - or the current federal administration for example), thus resulting in ill-founded prejudice against us. Therefore simply having people point at us in the grocery store because we're stocking up doesn't even phase us. We will continue to continue in any case.

3. In all likelihood, considering the number of non-Christian yuppies who are NOT preparing at all, we can expect that a y2k result of anything over about a 5 or so will inevitably produce a society in which the overall percentage of conservative Christians is *higher*, rather than lower...and yes, although I'm not a dominionist (a la GN), I would see God's hand in that.

so for you folks who didn't like that editorial, all I can say is 'pray for a speedbump scenario at the rollover'.

just my 2 cents' worth, Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), April 03, 1999.

Speaking as the product of a mother from an Irish Catholic family and a father from an English Protestant family, I get very uncomfortable around people who say they know what God/Jesus thinks and desires.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), April 03, 1999.

What does it say about people who subscribe to the dominant belief system on the planet, who then whine about being persecuted and pray for societal reorganisation such that their "remnant" may dominate even more completely? I thought that kind of hubris was reserved for corporations and governments.

Hallyx

"And we alone shall feed them...." the Inquisitor continues, "Oh, never,never can they feed themselves without us! No science will give them bread so long as they remain free. In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet, and say to us, 'Make us your slaves, but feed us.'" (Dostoevsky)

-- Hallyx (Hallyx@aol.com), April 03, 1999.

Texan, old Buddy, if you think you are castigated about being a part of the prevailing, dominant, religious right, you should be a liberal nonChristian, and then you will find out about castigation.

The first time the God Squad has to listen to another point of view, they scream and whine about persecution.

Someone once asked me why I was so anit-Christian, especially as I was raised by Christians, and didn't seem to be anti toward other religions. The answer is simple; I've never had anyone of another faith preach to me, try and convert me, bore me quoting long Biblical passages, tell me other religions were fakes, or sinners, or misguided, or tell me that they, and I were going to burn in the everlasting lake of hell fire, or going to hell, or be rejected by God, or never see my loved ones again.

I once roomed for a time with a woman of another faith. She never mentioned it. She was kind, considerate, tolerant and good hearted. She left me with a kindly feeling toward her religion without ever saying a word. There's a message there.

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), April 03, 1999.

I am not implying that this is was was originally intended in the book of Isaiah, but in my opinion, how it relates to what we all are going through:

Tell them what is wrong,(y2k) and why,(a two digit thing) and what is going to happen(TEOTWAWKI) unless they have a change of heart and straighten up.(Fix it, contingency plan etc.) Don't mince matters. Make it clear that they are positively down to their last chance. (how much time is left?) Give it to them good and strong and keep on giving it to them." (don't give up)

Then, the Lord adds, "I suppose perhaps I ought to tell youthat is won't do any good.(people don't like to hear bad news, or think about actually changing) The official class and their intelligentsia (media) will turn up their noses at you, and the masses will not even listen (sheople?). They will keep on in their own ways until they carry everything down to destruction(mismanagement, denial, butt covering), and you will probably be lucky if you get out with your life." (don't you ever feel that way?)

Puzzled, Isaiah asks the Lord what is the purpose of delivering a message to which no one will listen. The Lord explains, "Ahyou do not get the point. There is a remnant (GI's) there that you know nothing about. They are obscure, unorganized, inarticulate, each one rubbing along as best he can." (or do you really think GI's are a vocal majority?)

The Lord continues, "They need to be encouraged and braced up, because when everything has gone completely to the dogs,(TEOTWAWKI) they are the ones who will come back and build up a new society (how many times has this been discussed here?), and meanwhile, your preaching (sharing your sincere message) will reassure them and keep them hanging on. Your job is to take care of the remnant, so be off and get about it." (community groups, education, this forum)

There are many conclusions and ideas that can be drawn from these passages. Here is mine, for the benefit of the remnant(GI's), whoever and wherever you are:

It requires soul-deep faith (in preps, in your own intelligence, survival skills, in (gasp) God) to stand strong and hold your place when raging winds are uprooting and scattering everything around you.(TEOTWAWKI) If there is a temptation to cease the struggle and give way, keep in mind that the threatening winds MAY have been sent by a God who is about the business of separating the wheat from the chaff. (DGI's/GI's, sheople vs. thinking people)

I find it ironic that this last paragraph was so offensive when 'survival of the fittest' has been dicussed here quite a bit, also the idea that the masses are sheople, some people are just not able to grasp 'interconnectedness', useless eaters? etc.

I AGREE that this forum is not the place for this, I think Texan was (gasp) actually trying to ENCOURAGE people, so why not just treat Texan like dung. How very loving & tolerant you all are.

So, discuss Mother Shipton (the witch), Nostradamus, Hopi prophecies etc. ignoring that Christians on this forum find those things offensive (yet don't rip YOU a new orrafice). And blithely ingnore the fact that those things are of a spiritual nature, but because they are not 'Christian' they are o.k.----talk about being sheople.

& keep talking about how arcane Christian beliefs are & how hypocritical we are.

Spare us.

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), April 03, 1999.

We are living in a time of fanatics. According to William James, fanaticism is "loyalty carried to a convulsive extreme by an intensely loyal and narrow mind [that] idealizes the devotion itself." Social conditions, wars, racism, different values and more tolerant views tend to make some people lean towards fanaticism. We're seeing this taking place right now in the religious right.

Meadow and Kahoe said what I've always thought, "Fearful individuals with strong needs for meaning, conceptual simplicity, and relief from anxiety are most prone to fanaticism."

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), April 03, 1999.

Didn't know Mother Shipton was a witch. Anybody read the Mayfair Series by Anne Rice? Totally cool witch books -- but probably different than anybody's preconceptions about witches. It's good escapist reading, with historical gems. Thoughts of witches are intriguing; unfortunately we don't know any witches. Is there really such a thing? Useful skill. Anyway:

Mother Shipton's Complete Prophecies

some excerpts, written @ 1540:

<< When pictures seem alive with movements free
When boats like fishes swim beneath the sea,
When men like birds shall scour the sky
Then half the world, deep drenched in blood shall die.

For those who live the century through
In fear and trembling this shall do.
Flee to the mountains and the dens
To bog and forest and wild fens.

For storms will rage and oceans roar
When Gabriel stands on sea and shore
And as he blows his wondrous horn
Old worlds die and new be born.

A fiery Dragon will cross the sky
Six times before this earth shall die
Mankind will tremble and frightened be
For the sixth heralds in this prophecy.

For seven days and seven nights
Man will watch this awesome sight.
The tides will rise beyond their ken
To bite away the shores and then
The mountains will begin to roar
And earthquakes split the plain to shore.

And flooding waters, rushing in
Will flood the lands with such a din
That mankind cowers in muddy fen
And snarls about his fellow men.

He bares his teeth and fights and kills
And secrets food in secret hills
And ugly in his fear, he lies
To kill marauders, thieves and spies.

Man flees in terror from the floods
And kills, and rapes and lies in blood
And spilling blood by mankind's hands
Will stain and bitter many lands.

And when the Dragon's tail is gone,
Man forgets, and smiles, and carries on
To apply himself -- too late, too late
For mankind has earned deserved fate.

His masked smile -- his false grandeur [ hey! she knew about chumming! ]
Will serve the Gods their anger stir.
And they will send the Dragon back
To light the sky -- his tail will crack
Upon the earth and rend the earth
And man shall flee, King, Lord, and serf.

But slowly they are routed out
To seek diminishing water spout [ oops, LA, 30M without water ]
And men will die of thirst before
The oceans rise to mount the shore.

....
Not every soul on Earth will die
As the Dragon's tail goes sweeping by.

Not every land on earth will sink
But these will wallow in stench and stink
Of rotting bodies of beast and man
Of vegetation crisped on land.

....
The kings shall false promise make
And talk just for talking's sake [ if this isn't an accurate description of USA's current Prez ... ]
And nations plan horrific war
The like as never seen before.
And taxes rise and lively down
And nations wear perpetual frown.

Yet greater sign there be to see
As man nears latter century.
Three sleeping mountains gather breath
And spew out mud, and ice and death.

And earthquakes swallow town and town,
In lands as yet to me unknown.
And Christian one fights Christian two
And nations sigh, yet nothing do
And yellow men great power gain
From mighty bear with whom they've lain. [ oh $#!+ ]

These mighty tyrants will fail to do
They fail to split the world in two.
But from their acts a danger bred
An ague -- leaving many dead.

And physics find no remedy
For this is worse than leprosy.
Oh many signs for all to see
The truth of this true prophecy. >>

Amazing how much was brought up @ 1540 that we're debating on this Forum as the Millenium change rollover ticks ever closer. Interesting times! I think I wouldn't mind learning to be a witch, but there just isn't time ... weeks flying by.

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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 03, 1999.

gilda,

"Social conditions, wars, racism, different values and more tolerant views tend to make some people lean towards fanaticism. We're seeing this taking place right now in the religious right."

I agree with this. There are some very freaky & terrifying belief systems associated with the 'Religious Right' -- It should be labled the FAR RIGHT I was really unaware of just how scary they get, until I recently started reading 'Every Knee Shall Bow' by Jess Walter, it's about Ruby Ridge & the Randy Weaver family. Woa! What an eye opener!

If faith in God is fanatical, so be it. But I am telling you that IMHO these sects are twisted mutations, theologically deranged cults and do not come close to representing your average Christian. I don't know what part of the country you live in & what type of 'Christian' you are exposed to, but being lumped in with that (Weaver/Skin Head/Separatist/Fundie) group, is extraordinarily unfair & closed minded.

Leska,

I read Mother Shipton's writings a couple of months ago, when someone posted a link. It IS facinating, many of her prophesies are actually Bibical prophesies set to verse, many though are not. People thought she was a witch (from the research I did) but given the atmosphere in England at that time, who knows, I should have been more clear in my post, on that point I apologize. My point was not that people should not be free to post that, but that tolerance is a two way street.

I didn't think it was fair that Texan was attacked for posting somthing that was meant to uplift, not tear down. There are more gentle ways of suggesting someone to take it elsewhere.

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), April 03, 1999.

Deborah, I posted the Shipton verses because they make great reading. What is a witch? Don't really know, but the ability to foresee the future sure would come in handy now. Also, the ability to zoom around on a broomstick, especially if there's gas rationing, would be useful. And don't they have alternative cauldron recipes? We may have to change our diets ... And can't they cast spells? "Nobody shall cross our doorstep, nobody will remember we tried to prepare, nobody will come after our TP, no fire shall catch near our house, no sewage will back up our pipes" -- I can think of several spells I'd like to be able to cast. All in all, what little I know, witchhood sounds appealing at the moment. Do witches know how to use crystal balls? Seems like if we're all stuck without infrastructure, with dislocated refugees looking for water/food/warmth, etc, tolerance will be a necessary survival skill. Sorry if we're a little weird today; we just went through another death, and we're still sleep-deprived. Death for a patient is definitely TEOTWATKI. Sort of for us too each time we witness it ...

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-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), April 03, 1999.

Dearest Leska & Ashton,

"we just went through another death, and we're still sleep-deprived. Death for a patient is definitely TEOTWATKI. Sort of for us too each time we witness it ...

There is nothing to forgive, & I am so sorry to hear of your loss. People who do the work you do, are some of today's unsung heros. I have noticed recently you have not been yourself (okay I'm gonna get fanatical here, so hang on) you have been weighing heavy on my heart this past 24-48 hours, & earlier today it occured to me that is usually a sign I should be praying for someone, I admittedly blew it. I didn't pray, I wish I did.

"the ability to foresee the future sure would come in handy now."

ROTFL!!!!!

I just posted under your last post on the ground troups thread, it is about Russia gearing up troops. I almost added at the end of my comments "If I were Mother Shipton I would know" ;-) (or God LOL) I didn't add it, because I didn't want you to take it the wrong way. It was simply a joke based upon truth, and the feeling of uncertainty facing us. I didn't want to hurt/offend you so I left it off. Looks like we were on the same track. :-)

BTW I thought the rest of your 'witch' post was a riot! Being like the Invisible Man, might come in handy too!! (or Superman?)

Can you see it now? Superman! Where are you?! Hmmmmm interesting thread idea...which superhero would do best in y2k?

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), April 03, 1999.

Arlan H. Adams,

I apologize if my comments in any way offended you. They were directed to "sparks" for his inconsiderate reply and his obvious lack of discernment with regard to the reason for Texan's great post. If my comment sounded egoistic, I'm sorry... sometimes my words don't quite come out the way I feel them.

-- WebRNot (webrnot@ncap13k.com), April 03, 1999.

Dear Deborah, *grin*, when I was a kid I didn't read enough comic books or watch enough cartoons, so I'm at a disadvantage now! I've got this fierce affliction for escapism, and the thought of curling up in a sleeping bag and readings comics for a few weeks sounds really tempting. mmmmmmmmm, no no! This Forum is a bad enough habit! Gotta get back to being the diligent responsible drudge I've always been! *sigh*

Yep, I've been tired, cranky, grumpy, and apologize, especially to you. Actually, Ashton & I are intense spiritually fanatical zealots, but are too mellow about it to talk about it much. We just saw a magazine with stories and pictures that showed just how blah and wimpy we are compared to other zealots! There's always people who can take things farther than the outer limits of our imagination ...

I find religious discussions interesting, but the intolerance and mudslinging not appealing at all. So we usually skip over the threads which get into the dogmatic battles.

Like your idea of what mythical or real superhero or character would do best for Y2K -- anything invisible would be a huge plus! Also not subject to heat & cold or hunger, and not needing to go to the bathroom and shower, etc -- a ghost!? Somebody who can materialize at will? Make the round trip to Heaven and back at will and help others? Very pertinent topic now at Easter. Love to you & Kato. Thanks for the card! O:-)

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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 03, 1999.

I will only say this to declare to Whom my allegiance is.Since this post has created a firestorm of different responses.I serve a Risen Savior and He's everything to me. Traveler

-- traveling stranger (robq@mindspring.com), April 03, 1999.

Oh yeah! A roiling theological debate, just like the old days!

Arlin,

Why would we have to pray for a bump in the road? Your thoughtful post leaves one with the idea that "Conservative Christians" are to be feared by non "Conservative Christians". Golly, what a concept!

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), April 03, 1999.

PS, the reason that I post these contrarian ideas is that I'm trying to get everyone to hate me, just like the real world;)

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), April 03, 1999.

Deborah, I am not talking about your "average Christian." I have Christian friends that never mention religion. The type I mean is the type that comes on these forums for Y2K and start religious threads then moan about feeling persecuted if you remind them that this is not a religious board. Also, the Religious Right, fundies and fanatics, and as you mentioned, the zealots of the "Every Knee Shall Bow" type. The fanatical white separatists, reconstructionists, and as one Reborn Again Christian said, " ...if you are not a Christian, we will find you and we will kill you." This is scary. And I hate having sermons preached at me constantly because I reject Christianity.

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), April 03, 1999.

gilda,

I don't blame you! Very scary stuff out there. Sorry if I was a bit eh emotional. To think a day could come when all Christians are lumped together with that freaky stuff really ooks me out.

Peace,

Deborah

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), April 03, 1999.

Dear Ashton & Leska,

Your desire to know the future is normal considering you were made in the image of God. The Bible speaks about the gift of prophecy that can be available as the Holy Spirit impresses it within a person. I recommend it highly now, during, and after Y2K.

The Bible says that gifts were given to men (& women). In other words you were created with gifts built into you. Prophecy is the ability to sense and perceive what is taking place in the realm or dimension of the spirit world (Science and math both have proven more dimensions than we can perceive with our physical senses.) It did not differentiate between believer or non-believer. A person may be very sensative to the supernatural (transcending the natural world around us). A witch can perceive through evil spririts what happened in the past because evil spirits are fallen angels. They were once in heaven worshipping God. Satan (the devil) decided that he (the created being) would take over God's throne (rebellion) and he and one third of the angels fell to earth, God casting them out of heaven. Jesus said that He saw Satan fall like lightening. Satan is called the prince of the power of the air. The third of angels are now demon (evil) spirits. Demons speak to human minds and it is up to us to differentiate between demon voices, our own spirit, and God's Holy Spirit when we perceive thoughts. Demons cannot make us do anything. We have to choose which voice we will follow. Demons know history because they were here on earth before we were. They have seen everything and everything evil comes from Satan. That is why many people think they lived in a time before. Demon spirits speak to their minds things the demons have seen, and the person chooses to believe that they themselves actually saw whatever event it was. Demons can mimmick voices, take on human personalities (demon-possession-when a person allows an evil or many evil spirits to live within themselves) because they may have inhabited the person they mimmick). They know deaths, births, plans (they can hear what people speak), and Satan has his plan he is still trying to carry out to overcome God.

If you want to know the future from the first Source(Code) of Truth, which obviously has its preferences (God is not wicked), the gift of prophecy and the gift of discernment mentioned in I Corinthians 12, are free for the asking after Jesus has become your Saviour (when you realize that God sent His only Son to die in your place to keep you from going to the hell and eventually, the lake of fire that He created as punishment for Satan and his demons. He never intended for any of us to end up there, but He gave us the free choice to make that decision.) When you ask Jesus into your heart and turn away from sinning (rebellion), He will trust you with these gifts. You just have to ask for them. The gift of prophecy enables us to know what God is planning to do in the earth or to encourage another believer as God reveals his plan in their life. Many times God uses it to warn of danger. He gives business ideas, also. Sometimes, He uses it to reveal plans that Satan plots against believers and non-believers. With that kind of information, we can pray very effectively, to turn the events to God's favor. It is a lot of fun and, to me, sort of 007'ish. It is not the religious boring stuff that many of us were raised and choked with. It is pure God. The gift of discernment supercedes past our minds and knowledge, helping us know information we would not normally be privy of. Both prophecy and discernment are worth more than gold or silver, in that if they aren't available (since they have stopped the minting processes, gee thanks...) God will impress on you where to go, what to do, if you are caught in a seemingly impassible situation. Let me reiterate FUNNN!! God is a lot of fun, and it doesn't take away from His holiness one bit. He like to have fun...If He doesn't come across to you in this way, you really need to spend some time talking to Him.

By the way, God strictly forbids going to witches, palmreaders, psychics, etc...not because He is the Big Honcho upstairs bossing everyone around. He is protecting you from harming yourself. He knows Satan. Satan is completely devoid of love. He hate humans. Why? Because we are made in God's image. He wants to encourage us to kill ourselves and each others and go to hell with him. To Satan, we are pawns is the battle against God. To God, we are His sons and daughters going to war against Satan. He left it to us through the power of His Holy Spirit, the same Power that raised Jesus from the dead.

Y2K is not God's fault. He saw men creating inventions that would lead to this. He has sent some faithful people to warn of the futility of faulty code (clearly warned the government since 1967?). He always sends the prophets. Some know Him. Some don't. We procrastinate and think we are the invinsible generation. But, this I know: God will send us help and wisdom to overcome these tremendously difficult odds if we just ask Him. We pray and use the minds He gave us. Some tremendously talented minds. The most difficult task is unifying a people. We hate the OKC bombing. It shouldn't have happened. God warned people not to go to work that day. Some did, some didn't. But, after the horrific event, people unfied and worked together in a spirit of love and even self- sacrifice that has brought Oklahomans together in a way that would never have happened, otherwise. No, God did not want that bomb to go off. But, He promises to take bad situations and bring miracles out of them if we will pray and trust Him to do it.

Y2K is a tremendous opportunity (although it was DEFINITELY not on my agenda for the turn of the century) to unify our world in a way in which it has not been for centuries (excluding war times). That can be for good or bad. If a good leader rules, there is peace in the land. If an evil leader rules, we are in trouble. I heard Ed Yardeni call for a "world leader" on C-Span as he sat next to Peter de Jager in a sort of government forum last June. This was in regard to the climatic events Y2K could set forth. We will begin to hear this more and more. Why do I say this? Daniel, Revelations, and periodically Jesus spoke of it in the four gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John) Obviously, the technology is here for a world ruler. The United Nations is becoming the norm as we look for peace in the world. And, world laws are becoming world edicts through the United Nations. The Bible says this will be a very bad situation with an evil leader.

I do not believe Y2K is the end of the world. It has a ways to go according to the Bible. Jesus can come back to pick up His people at any time. But, God decides this, not the turn of the clock. So, while we believers are still here, you will know us by our fruits...love, joy, peace, longsuffering, patience, kindess....not so bad. If someone is preaching and it isn't followed by these, you will know he can't be of God, or he is definitely walking outside of His Spirit. Go for God and He will lead you by His Spirit. It is a good idea condsidering He is the Creator of this world. He always has the best ideas. He just needs good people to implement them. He is looking for a few good leaders.

-- Becky (every1@home.com), April 04, 1999.

AMEN..............................AMEN...........................AMEN

-- Blondie Marie (Blondie@future.net), April 05, 1999.