With any luck, the thoughts will take their place, properly formatted right about . . . . NOW!====> Well, almost lets see, acoiuple returns ought to help.....

Folks::

Bardous response to our newest newbie has given me pause. It may well not be too early for this forum to discuss and consider (usually these are done in the other order but I know you guys and gals too well) how we want to respond to the late or soon to emerge GIs. You all know that what will happen is the new GI, in not really but maybe panic mode will put "Y2K" into the nearest search engine, maybe with "Preparations" included and. LO theyll be here in microseconds.

Permit me to be seriously conceited for a bit and to assume that we are the easiest to access, and the best site for preparations for the person who hasnt thought anything through. Yes, weve all seen and each have favorites in the other sites, dedicated to specific aspects of the question, but I think this is the best overview site going. Besides, we USED to be able to help people think things through. (The tense of the verb used here is indicative of a sad state of affairs which we may have to discuss.)

Anyway, they will be here and they will ask exactly the question that was asked that triggered Bardou. In keeping with the spirit of this forum, and our track record, we need to think through what we will try to tell the new GI as they come in, panting and fully lathered, foam streaming from the nostrils, body twitching,   "Breathe! Easy big fella! Stop twitching your withers, and un-helicopter your ears. There aint a banding gun here!! Relax, Breathe, Now, lets start with " We just got a catalog from a Vet supply place and it was OK until I turned the page to the banding guns and I got a very uncomfortable shriveling sensation. Mrs Driver said that we men were so predictable.. which didnt help at all. (Banding guns are for gelding males. I wont go into the details but it uses a SMALL latex donut which gets drawn up REALLY tight)

I digress, but NOT very far. How many of us do NOT recognize that foam flecked horse, from the mirror? Each and every one of us has panicked about this (with the possible exception of Ed). We have each cyber "heard" the enjoinder to "Relax. Breathe." We, as a forum community, and like it or not thats what we are, are about to be faced with an onslaught of people who have just seen the possible. NO they have not seen the "Future," they have seen the POSSIBLE! What they will need is calm, rational strategies for coping with this possible alternative universe. As I have suggested, rather pretentiously above, this forum has, generally speaking, overall the best overview, general approach to preparation available.

We are going to have to rein in our natural suspicion on trolls, as the poser MORE LIKELY is honest about where he/she sits in the continuum. We are going to have to help the new folks start thinking outside the box. We will need to help them structure their thinking in the right direction. (Cans not frozen, scratch not mix, conversions for dry milk, alternatives to white sugar and adjustments to recipes, wheat not flour, rice and beans together to get the correct amino acid balance, etc.)

Right. Hands in the back of the room. You sir. Why us? Well flippantly Why NOT us? And equally flippantly, Because were here, wherever here is. A more reasoned answer to that has at least two legs (Inspector Clouseau "TWO Possibilities, TWO. Errrr Three possibilities," etc.). The first is a matter of enlightened self interest. Because we can come from across the Ocean or across the street, it is in OUR OWN best interests to see that the new people receive the information that they need to do the level of preps they have time left to do, and do them effectively and efficiently. I would much rather find that my neighbor (can you say "Fat Chance") has started prepping in August than find in December he has not. And I would VERY MUCH rather he found a set of info that allowed him to go about it in an efficient manner, not wasting whole days trying to do something one of us has found does not work.

The second leg of the answer to "Why US??" amounts to an appeal to something that I feel most of us who have posted here will understand. I say "MOST" because in the last, oh, whats it been Diane, 6 or 8 months since we both showed up (I think we both landed here at about the same time, I could be wrong. BTW the time estimate just goes to show you that time flies, whether youre having fun or not.) I have seen only a few folks who will not understand this. It devolves upon us as a duty to ourselves, as much as a duty to our fellow human being. This touches on a couple concepts which will not be foreign to this board and most of the regular denizens hereof. Primarily, it is the twin concepts of HONOR; and DUTY to your fellow man (or woman). I feel honor bound to make myself available to anyone who is willing to do the work to find where I hang out, and ask what suggestions I may have. This may have something to do with my Masonic training, where these concepts are enshrined, along with the requirement to help a brother Mason whenever one is able.

Pretentious, unctuous twaddle?? Sheer and utter B*** S***?? Fine. You are entitled to your opinion, just dont get in the way. Dont scream at the top of your keyboard "TROLL ALERT!!!!" when what you mean to say is "Preparation Pollyanna!!" or "Fresh Meat, New GI!!" Dont inflict an "Its too late, youre DOOMED" answer on someone because its NEVER TOO LATE!!!

(Marginal note: Hardliner, greybear, or SOB please remind me I said this in March of 1999, sometime in oh, December, OK??)

I have some additional thoughts (or what passes for such in my case) but I think its probably time to kick this around for a bit. I guess what Im asking, is, if I were to propose a solution, am I proposing a solution in search of a problem?? Am I the only one to see this as a coming problem?? And, yes I have some thoughts on a solution, but Id like to see what the rest of you have in mind for the advisability/necessity of a solution first. Chuck, who will now step back, not very far and see what develops. (assuming I can get the HTML/formatting right!!!)

-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), March 27, 1999

Answers

This has evolved into a very interesting thread... and a few people have posted questions directed at me:

1. If anyone wants to put together a web page (or a full web site) of the "Cliff Notes" version of Y2K preparedness, I would be happy to provide a link to it from the "links and resources" section of my web site. There doesn't have to be just one such site, there can be two or three or a dozen. If anyone already has such a thing, let me know; if it's a commercial site, and you're trying to sell your own wares, then I may not feel like linking to it, but if it's just general-purpose information, I'm happy to help.

2. Re censoring those messages and threads that are repetitive: I sympathize with the request, but it would be a full-time job, as seems to be the case with Amy at Peter de Jager's web site. I'm a one-man band, with no assistants or secretaries or web masters or anything, and I don't have the time or resources to do anything but delete the few threads that turn out to be blatantly obscene or annoying (please folks, lose the Javascript stuff, okay?)

3. One additional thought to add to the many interesting observations already posted on this thread: I've noticed a sharp increase in the number of hostile, angry, confrontational email messages about Y2K -- not just the usual "denial" messages, but also messages arguing that I'm contributing to the problem ("things would just be fine if people like you weren't causing innocent folks to panic), or even causing the problem ("there IS NO computer problem, there is ONLY a problem of scam artists like you maliciously fomenting panic"). I'm seriously concerned that this kind of backlash movement may eventually make it almost impossible for well-intentioned GI's to offer any help at all to the late-comers. Those of us who were early GI's (probably 1% of the population) have managed to raise the alarm for about 5% of the population ... but I think we may need to consider getting out of harm's way when the remaining 95% of the herd begins its stampede this summer or fall. On the other hand, I know that many of the forum participants believe that it will be calm and quiet right up to the very end, in which case we GI's can continue to offer information and suggestions and assistance to the new arrivals that stumble onto our site in the summer and fall...

Ed

-- Ed Yourdon (ed@yourdon.com), March 28, 1999.

natural suspicion on trolls, as the poser MORE should be: natural suspicion on trolls, as the poster MORE

Spell check, gramar check and it STILL got through

*SIGH* Chuck

alternatively I just got to the top of the new answers by guile

-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), March 27, 1999.

Hey, Chuck! Great question!!! Kudos to you for asking it. I'll have to think on this one. Maybe we could put together a list of our 25 best threads???

Seems to me that as time passes the ways to prep are going to change. No longer will we be able to recommend Alladin lamps or generators for they will be sold out. Guess we need to tailor recommendations to current circumstances. Like how to most efficiently prep with limited $, time, and supplies. Maybe we could also have an updated tip of the week thread with supply alerts, changing trends (like: get your lamp oil now, not next week... not tomorrow ... but now...). And how to best store food when mylar bags, oxygen absorbers, and food buckets are no longer available????

Just a few thoughts. Will think some more on it. Anyone else?

-- Libby Alexander (libbyalex@aol.com), March 27, 1999.

Time is lapsing into the Y2K Zone.

Prepare if you are serious!

All others, well, switch back to your favorite TV channel...

-- dinosaur (dinosaur@williams-net.com), March 27, 1999.

A lot depends on just WHEN these new GI's become NGI's. As Libby pointed out, many items that will make life easier post-Y2K are unaailable, and substitutes aren't easy to arrange some, such as woodstoves and generators. Luckily for them, survival of any kind is about 90% between the ears and the other 10% preps and storage, so we'll definitely have to tailor our response to newbies by placing less emphasis on stuff and more on knowledge. Websites like the excellent Y2K Survival Documents are good places to send them, apart from the archives here... there is a lot of stuff that can be built from simple materials - of course this presupposes that the NGI has sufficient mechanical aptitude to follow directions and actually complete these projects. Even so, if they wake up real late in the game, we may not have much to offer them in the way of advice, especially if by that time rationing and other such measures have been put into effect. Necessary items may have already become difficult or impossible to obtain.

My feeling is that the majority of folks who will GI, at least in time to properly prepare, have already done so. I don't think we'll face any surge of NGI's until around September. What we here, and on most other Y2K forums, must ultimately expect to face around that time is a mass of panic-stricken individuals seeking guidance and leads on obtaining supplies that simply are no longer available. What advice we give will be mostly in the form of, "well, if you could get 50 lbs. of rice, you could feed yourtself for about three months on it, providing you have a means to cook it, and clean water to boil it in..."

The more I think about it, the less I want to be on this or any forum after midsummer.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 27, 1999.

Chuck, looks like you just volunteered to put together a quick list of supplies -- and you may want to include a reason why a new GI might want those supplies. Like, of course you use the oil lamps when the power is off.

A good starting place might be two threads that were posted today. First, Roland has a good quick shopping list that is pretty good for a short term solution. It can be expanded and added to for longer periods of time. Its at

Rolands List

And, Greybear did a number on a modified Bug Out Bag (BOB) that makes a good carry bag if yhou have to hoof it. That thread is at

The Grey Bare Minimum Survival Bag

Now, if you were to add small sections on water, power, and so on, you have yourself a good thread that we can keep moving to the top of the charts. And, then we only have to tell the new GI how to find it by going to the new answers list.

Thanks, Chuck, we really needed that.

(Hey, this delegation stuff works wonders!! Now, just hope I got the links right)

-- De (delewis@inetone.net), March 27, 1999.

OK, try thes,

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000eqs

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000em8

-- De (delewis@inetone.net), March 27, 1999.

Roland

Greybear

-- try (one@more.time), March 27, 1999.

Percisely my point my fellow Yourdonites. It's too late for many because they do not have the money nor do they have the experience and knowledge that many of us have gained in the past 1-1/2 years? How many "How To Y2K" books can you name that was available 1 to 2 years ago that we purchased to prepare us for the future potential disruptions? How many hours have you sat at the computer gleaning every bit of information you could so you could prepare accordingly? How many hours have you spent on this site trying to get across the point to hundreds of newbies that planning and preparing would be prudent. How many hours and threads have we spent defending this site, defending our positions and why we believe the way we believe? I don't stay on this site to ridicule people nor to caudle people either. I give my honest opinion on how I see things and people don't like it because it sounds too harsh or too discouraging. Well, I've been discouraged too, because I wish that people would take responsibility, give a thought for tomorrow, and don't expect everyone here to wipe their butt every step of the way. There's plenty of information on this site, and every newbie who is truly interested will find the right answers, they only need to research the archives and seek out what information they feel will help them through this mess. I can't do their shopping for them, they have many shopping lists to go by. I can't manage their money, but I could tell them how to get the most for their money. None of us here can do anything for them at this point but to lead them to information that they will have to read and decide for themselves. I believe we have reached that point in time, where no one knows where the middle of the road is, I only which lane I am in. Bardou

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), March 27, 1999.

DieTER is sUrE That yOu haVE a gOod poINt!!!!!! HuH????? BuT DIetER caNNot thINk aboUt AnytHIng bUt dIETeR's scrOTUm riGHT NOw!!!!!!

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), March 27, 1999.

Exactly, Bardou. I've been preparing for a WW III/NWO/civil war/Y2K scenario for the past six years... and I mean preparing, ceaselessly, from food storage to fallout shelter and everything in between. I'm still finding better ways to do things, spending time acquiring skills I didn't realize I'd need, and keeping the skills I already possess well-honed. All this, and I know that if Y2K is more than about a 7-8, I'll have my hands much, much fuller than I desire, or perhaps can handle. How it will be for anyone who's just starting to prepare (mentally as well as physically) is problematic in the extreme.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 27, 1999.

Chuck --- While bardou got a little steamed recently, I think it was mainly over the idea that folks can somehow leapfrog over the months of time and energy it takes to actually prepare (mind you, she is perfectly capable of speaking for herself on this as always). Typical of the forum, regulars spoke up to, um, push back just a bit against bardou on that particular thread. In other words, the forum worked as it should.

While I agree with your theme, I do think this is probably a solution in search of a problem. 90-95% of the regulars are always happy to give pointers on countless threads to sincere questions, especially about preparation. Unfortunately, the last couple of months have seen a dramatic increase in harassment (by trolls) and argumentative efforts to prove Y2K is going to be a bump in the road (by DGIs). This is quite a bit different than the issue you pose (helping new GIs).

Granted, some of us may well disagree about the motives of a particular poster and, no doubt, sometimes we "call it wrong," assuming someone is argumentative who is genuinely questing. IMHO, that is QUITE the exception, not the rule.

I don't personally feel a need to help people "think outside the box" about Y2K itself in April of 1999. To prepare, yes. These two are not the same.

As bardou says (and I said it myself to Decker, when he proposed debating Y2K's seriousness, as though somehow this were a noble offer to the forum), there are hundreds, thousands of threads on this forum that cover just about every aspect of Y2K, and certainly preparation. Even including preparation for those with little money, those who can't get certain kinds of supplies, etc. If folks are too lazy to go back and read, they are certainly too lazy to prepare for Y2K.

Of course, Y2K is dynamic and what one can get to prepare will change over time. So I return to what I said at the beginning of this post: almost all of us are delighted to help new GIs to the best of our ability. But we (or, at least, I) don't have the time or the inclination to put up with further browbeating about Y2K itself from people who are obsessed with the idea that "panic" (e.g., preparation) is what the "Y2K hype" is all about.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), March 27, 1999.

Chuck and all,

Good conversation. I was a little dissappointed with some of the answers to the newbie that essentially said "lean over and kiss your butt goodbye".

As an example of what can be done in a short time: I became a GI two months ago and have already made HUGE strides into our preps. We have at least 9 months of dry/canned food, will have one year soon, we have vitamins and supplements for two years, OTC medication for 1-2 years, household sundries, including TP for at least a year maybe longer for some items, our first aid kit is done, we have some pretty cool barter items, a water filtration system, 90 gallons of water storage that will be converted to a greenhouse watering system as soon as we see we don't need it in the house, have moved our 401Ks and IRAs to government treasuries, have Series EE bonds in five figures as a hedge and alternative to cash, and except for our mortgage, we are out of debt. We have an account in the credit union that presently holds our mortgage that contains 15 house payments that will remain intact specifically for this purpose, and are beginning to draw out some cash from some of our other accounts. We will rent a safe deposit box as a cash stash temporarily and are planning a cash safe area that only my mother, sister and my husbands parents will know about. We will be upgrading our home insulation and windows this summer and we have researched the heat situation and will have that covered by late spring. We have most of the winter clothing that we need and will be picking up the rest real soon, hello Salvation Army and Goodwill. Our greenhouse and gardens will be opertaional by this summer. I am well versed on the edible wild stuff in our area and some of it actually sounds good. Our bikes are ready as well as alternative fuel storage. We will be buying some fishing gear this spring when the sales hit. We have most of the tools that we will need. We have plan B and C (including a bugout plan) cooking. I mention this because we accomplished much of this in only two months, the rest is the result of our lifestyle prior to becoming GI.

Granted, we probably have more to spend than the newbie with $1000 but I really haven't spent all that much and all of it is useable regardless of which way the wind blows. I think that it bears repeating like someone else in this thread said already, paraphrased "survival is more than hunkering down with supplies". It is living by your knowlege and wits. It is educating yourself as to how things work in the natural world. It is being flexible and being able to move as the situation dictates. It is leaving as many options and doors open as possible. It is removing counterproductive behaviours such as worrying about things that one can't control, the woulda, coulda, shoulda ruminations, the perfectionistic all or nothing thinking. Even in September, there are probably things that folks can do, even if it doesn't occur to us now as to what. I too think we should be of service to as many people that come here looking for our help for as long as we can do it. I personally benefitted from the ramped up knowlege on this forum and I for one will be happy to pass it on to a newbie as they come in and ask for help. Thanks to all that helped me when I asked.

-- Ramp Rat (Aviation_R_us @noname.nocity), March 27, 1999.

I don't mind helping out with answers to fresh-off-the-boat newbies. Y'all know I really do have a bit of a short-term memory problem so I can't remember how many times (sometimes even IF) I've answered a particular question. I won't volunteer for anything structured but would be glad to jump in and try to calm someone down a bit.

I think we've done a really good job on helping newbies and, yes, I can certainly see Bardou's point--with all we've learned, done, bought, studied, etc., it seems impossible that someone can do anything useful in a couple of weeks. But I guess they can do the important bits. Even the legendary three days of preparing is better than absolutely nothing.

A thought just struck (they do occasionally, even at my age). Could we perhaps advise people to buy mixed bags of supplies, that is, instead of saying umpty-ump pounds of rice for two months, how about this is roughly what you need for one week. Then instead of being stuck with 200lbs of rice, 300lbs of beans and no veggies, fruit or fuel, at least they might have enough until barter or some kind of aid or spring harvest or something ramps up (fingers crossed).

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), March 27, 1999.

Ramp Rat, it's great that you were able to do what you've done in a couple of months, but the point is, money aside perhaps, you could just go into a store and buy what you needed. The point I'm trying to make is that such purchases may not be possible a few months from now. Sad to say, when widespread panic occurs, kissing their tails goodbye may be the only alternative for some.

-- sparks (wirelsss@home.com), March 27, 1999.

I was thinking that with the warmer weather fast approaching we might go into a period of Y2K being put even farther on the back burner for many.

People will be busy with outdoor activites and vacationing etc. to most probably even give Y2K another thought.

That is, of course, unless something pretty drastic happens to alert the masses.

I think the warmer weather will lull the awakening ones back to slumberland.

-- anon (anon@anon.ccc), March 27, 1999.

2nd para. shd. read:

People will be busy with outdoor activities and vacationing etc. to most probably not even give Y2K another thought.

-- anon (anon@anon.ccc), March 27, 1999.

Sparks,

I understand your point but we haven't gotten there yet. We might get there, maybe sooner, maybe later, but in every situation there may be alternatives to going to the store to buy things. I think this forum may have a grip on some of those alternatives soon. For example: Someone recently posted something about water filtration using charcoal or wood ash or sand. Materials that may be available long after the store filters are gone. Same thing with food collection. We have a pervasive weed in our neck of the woods that is edible in all stages of growth. May save some lives knowing about this. Maybe there are other ways to solve the food issue as well. I just think it is almost never too late to improve a situation to some degree, and I say almost because I realize this is a time that may eventually come. But for now, I am all for helping those that ask if only to point them toward the more useful threads in the archives.

Regards,

-- Ramp Rat (Aviation_R_us@noname.nocity), March 27, 1999.

Well, we're in total agreement then, Ramp Rat. I don't see a cutoff point at which you just throw up your hands and say "too late", either. There are always alternatives. However, it's my considered opinion that most people will die long before they successfully construct a water filter of the type you describe, or perhaps they'll pick the wrong plant and not have to worry about starving to death. I'm talking about America here, where most people have given up already - THEY will be the ones throwing their hands in the air, not us.

-- sparks (wireless@home.here), March 27, 1999.

Ramp Rat: Keep posted here because this forum may very well take a turn to many different forms of surivival. I have spent the past 30 years collecting books on gardening, edible weeds and flowers, herbs, composting, and self-sufficient living. When the libraries and internet are no longer forms of information, I consider my library to be a valuable asset. And Roland, I'm not being smug here, just thinking ahead and it's going to pay off.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), March 27, 1999.

Excellent and very pertinent discussion at this time.

As for shortages of certain items...I think we'll just have to address those individually as they occur. Right now, there's still plenty of food, water, fuel and many other things. Other items (gensets, etc.) are already becoming difficult to obtain - uh, but not yet impossible. There's always the 'used' market. Not everything has to be purchased new.

Alternatives exist. I purchased soybeans from Gary Hansen. I paid somewhat more for them than Gary would have gotten at the elevator. In doing so, I also paid far less for them than I would have paid for comparable food value in the supermarket. I got the soybeans for my food storage program and Gary got a decent price for the his beans. Is this not the kind of solutions that make sense?

(momentarily going a bit off topic)

Speaking of shortages, does anyone know where all the 'strike anywhere' matches have gone? There doesn't seem to be any of them anywhere. I'm guessing maybe the Gary North entourage has the market cornered on them.

Also, my older Colemen 2-mantle lantern needs a new generator tube but no one is carrying these. Does anyone know why? Has the design changed significantly. The fellows at Wal-Mart had no idea what I was talking about.

(end diversion)

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. The window of opportunity for serious preps is certainly narrowing. But one of the suggestions I've found most helpful personally is to first prepared for 1 day without essential services. Then 2 days, then a week, then a month, and so forth. This gives those who choose to prepare obtainable and useful sub-goals. If no disruptions occur in your particular area - great. If disruptions are minimal (2-3 days without the really critical stuff) and you've prepared for a week, you 'home free'. By building upon this approach, 'across the board' preparations are gradually extended. Combined with some good fortune, it could certainly make the difference for some people under some circumstances.

At this point in time, it makes much more sense to do this than to set some arbitrary time frame (say 6 months) and first get all the food you'll need, then all the water, then all the fuel.

But this approach all by itself is not sufficient. It needs to be combined with some other key issues. Take location, for example. Mrs. Rimmer and I live very close to a medium sized city (200,000). Because we live in a semi-rural location, and because we do not currently have a huge problem with crime in this area, we opted to stay and try to ride things through right where we are. But we are still attempting to work through a couple of alternative locations (with friends in much more rural locations) should things become 'difficult'. But make no mistake, we've spent a lot of time thinking about our location. We are not certain that our decision on this was correct -- I'd feel better about it if real community-based preps were occurring -- but we think it makes the most sense at this time.

Other issues may be of equal importance and can be expected to vary widely from one individual to the next. I also agree the the "Relax, Breathe, Don't panic" message should come first followed closely by "No one on this forum has lock on THE TRUTH. No one has a crystal ball. You will have to make up your own mind and draw your own conclusions and do what you feel is best for your own particular situation".

So long as there is still food on the grocery store shelves and electricity to power our computers, I believe that we can have some positive impact in the time that remains.

We should also be able to condense a few of the past threads here as well. The lack of a search engine poses some problems but there are work-arounds. I kicked off a job last night to download the entire forum - all 70,000+ messages. Should already be done and waiting for me. Once I have this, I can do a text search looking for specific threads of interest. If you've got a favorite/useful thread but can't find it, let me know and I'll search for it.

In short, I feel we should continue to do what we can while we can. This forum has been invaluable to me and while we may not have been able to convince the world that preparation and bit of self sufficiency are prudent things in today's world, there are still those who may benefit from what we have been able to accomplish.

Oh, and one more thing... DiEter: UnlaX!!! No??? Yes! BAndiNg GuNS ArE OnlY FOr tHE FoUr-lEgGEd ANiMaLS. IS tHiS nOT TRuE??? DIeteR SHouLD sTanD Up oN TwO LegS, No??? Yes!

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie_Rimmer@usa.net), March 28, 1999.

I led a y2k-sheltered life up until a month or so ago, and then we got internet access and POW!!!! Guess you may appreciate the tornado of emotions I've been through. I am a father of two teens and have never considered myself to be out of touch, if you know what I mean. But this whole thing has taken me by suprise. Needless to say I have spent every moment I can get on the net, working around two teens sharing the single phone line to our house. I have been desperately searching for someone to tell me that it's gong to be "all right". I will be/am very grateful to this forum in particular for leading me to information I can use. I have been using the list from "Chilkoot Trail Supplies" from the y2k_survlist site. It was a great starting point and I guess that it this best point of all, because from the day I quit protecting my 'physc and began protecting my ass, I have lost many of the desperate feelings of panic and hopelessness. I am still at times overwhelmed by the enormity of the problem, and the implications. I'm a "boomer" that didn't, so I have no source to tap for the $$$ it required to be Y2k_compliant on a TEOTWAWKI survival/life skills level. But I do have enough for a family of 4 for a year to survive a 6 - 7, on a Food, Shelter, Clothing basis already. It wasn't hard. It wasn't that expensive, it is without frills, and it is subject to change if time permits. But "IT IS WHAT ITIS"toot..toot and I an glad about it. Well I've been on since 3am and I guess I better 'GET OFF' here, but I again want to thank the sincere GI's for spending the countless hours searching and reporting valuable and potential life saving info for us newbies. I look forward to meeting you again.

Sorry about the formating, This is a first cutandpaste to textarea, more will be revealed!I hope.

-- spun@lright (mikeymac@uswest.net), March 28, 1999.

-- spun@lright (mikeymac@uswest.net), March 28, 1999.

Chuck -

Helping new GI's prepare FAST was the purpose of my previous thread and shopping list. I concur with you completely regarding this need.

Due to the nature of this forum, it is difficult for a newbie to weed through all of the threads. They need a "one stop shopping" link.

Would it be possible for Mr. Yourdon to provide a link from his homepage that will direct folks to a "Down and Dirty One Month Prep list for a Family of 4". We could put our collective heads together and come up with the content of the page. This way, new GI's will have a consistent page to go to for information, not a constantly changing and sometimes dscouraging thread.

Of course Mr. Yourdon may need a diclaimer that this is not HIS page and does not reflect HIS views if he so desires.

What do you think? Ed? Others?

R.

-- Roland (nottellint@nowhere.com), March 28, 1999.

Chuck and Arnie and Roland are right in thinking about this ahead of time.

Since I came on in January, the forum's new threads have grown so fast that good topics speed by and I know I'm missing lots.

The question is: Will Ed be willing to "censor" -- i.e., delete -- new threads that ask a repetitious question answered well-enough elsewhere?

We can either provide a link to an earlier thread that summarizes, or we can re-post, say, once a week a copied thread entitled something like: NEWBIES! COME HERE TO READ WHETHER Y2K WILL BE A BIG PROBLEM, and another titled: NEWBIES! COME HERE FOR OUR CURRENT PREPARATION RECOMMENDATIONS.

I hate imagining what contributions I'm missing down some uninteresting thread by some very interesting forum member that I want to read. Search engine, ever?

A good compression plan for living together in a more crowded would reduce the need for a search engine, or searching.

This "re-writing the Bible" for every new arrival is kinda time- wasting, no?

-- jor-el (jor-el@krypton.com), March 28, 1999.

Oops. That's "more crowded _forum_".

Don't you just hate people who re-post for one little typo?

-- jor-el (jor-el@krypton.com), March 28, 1999.

Jo -

Unfortunately, there is no "Bible". That is what Chuck, myself and others are suggesting we compile. Family of 4...one month...go buy this stuff...today...

It needs to be in an easily accessable location and only change as the current Y2K situation does. It needs to contain items that are easily and quickly accessable. It needs to convey a positive message.

I still think Ed's homepage is the best spot...does he respond to emails frequently?

One more thought to those who keep crying "it's too late!" Someone else made a statement that I think is worth repeating. Would you rather your neighbors had one month worth of supplies or none? Which scenario will better benefit you and your family?

The new GI's coming to this forum could be your next door neighbors...you just never know.

R.

-- Roland (nottelling@nowhere.com), March 28, 1999.

It's never too late to prepare as much as you can!!!!! I'll be glad to help any newbies as much as I can.

-- Flagirl (Filterlady@aol.com), March 28, 1999.

Good idea Chuck. Banding guns, jeezus louise, I used those babies on the male calves at branding time. Much less traumatic than the razor blades we were using before. Just seemed to cause an itch for 24 hours or so. But then we no longer were eating the fall harvest Rocky Mtn Oysters. ;-(

Umm. Traditionally, strange to use that when talking about the Internet, the Usenet has been used as the depository for the info being talked about in this thread. They are the FAQ's. There is a good example at rec.food.canning (or whatever it is) that is above 60k in size and is updated once a month (if _my greying memory serves me right).

Regular pointers could be posted into the various y2k and survivalism, etc. newsgroups and to various Forums and subscription lists, etc. indicating that at a particular Usenet addy there are regularly updated FAQ's. Nice thing about using the Usenet is that access points such a DeJaNews have killer search engines and the storage of old posts is much more conducive to browsing when compared to Greenspun's Forum software.

-- Mitchell Barnes (spanda@inreach.com), March 28, 1999.

Here in California we have a new wrench thrown into the works. Gasoline. Prices are expected to rise to $2.00+ a gallon. If you stored gasoline 2 months ago, you are a winner. If your just getting started you have to dig deeper into the pocket book. Everything is shipped either by truck or train and the prices at the supermarket will cetainly reflect that price. For those of you on the east coast, expect to pay higher prices for your produce, and imports that are shipped from California.

Arnie: I think I can find you the part you need for your Coleman lantern. If you have the model #, etc. please post.

Went to Costco last week and they had 5 Coleman generators for $800 each. Six cylinder-type propane tanks, low on rice, beans and bottled water. Wal-Mart dropped their price for Coleman one-gallon heating fuel to $2.50 was $3.59 they had about 20 gallons on the shelf. No oil lamps, no Ultra-Pure oil (the best to use), plenty of glass chimneys and wicks. Flea Market and garage sales are here but you may be hard pressed to find good quality Kero-Sun heaters, camping stoves, etc. If it doesn't work, don't buy it because parts are expensive and you may not be able to get parts. Saw 2 Kero-Sun heaters at a thrift store for $10.00 each! After checking them out, the glass chimneys were broken, no wicks, and one ignitor was broke. Cost to repair would be around $60.00-70.00 and you would have to order the parts which Kero-Sun may or may not have. Aladdin lamps are saying 6 months out for lamps, but parts are easy to get the last time I checked.

Having a search engine or a weekly alert thread is a good idea. It will help newbies search out information faster. Time is of the essence and think water, lots of it!

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), March 28, 1999.

OWSZER!!!!! Thanks all for some INTERESTING feedback!!! time to print so I can cogitate a bit. Quick first takes:

I like the "One stop shop list thread" idea, so long as we can modify it for the changing times.

A FAQ WEBSITE looks like a good idea too. do I hear a volunteer or was I in teh restroom when this was decided. (digression, but not too far:

I was working on a LARGE project, and since this was WELL before LOTUS (tm) NOTES (tm) we would share documents, minutes, etc. among the team and with management and other teams by someone becoming the "Pony Express" person and making the copies and delivering them as needed. The team was looking for a replacement of our "PE" person and I had JUST excused myself for the restroom. When I got back, well, you can guess. I learned a LOT about the office layout and where executives sat at BCNO REAL QUICK!!)

ANYWAY< look for another thread ref a possible solution set later this week.

Chuck

PS Thanks for the input folks, esp Ed.

-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), March 28, 1999.

Humm, Chuck.

End of October for me ... five months. How time flies! Lot of water (and trolls) under the Yourdon bridge. ;-)

Yesterday, had another over the fence conversation (the gist of which Ill post on another thread by tomorrow), with a next door neighbor, an executive with a large Silicon Valley Computer Corporation.

His biggest dilemma? What does he tell his employees about Y2K preparations?

How does he avoid causing panic, yet encourage a sensible level of preparations so he can count on employees to be there for the company at the turn?

Across America, in board rooms large and small, enlightened employers, et.al., are asking themselves this one.

Id be willing to bet most will wait until September or so, before coming out of the get ready (at some level) closet. What do they say? What do they recommend? Too little and their corporations ability to ride the potential storm is hampered. Too much and they might cause panic which could trigger a host of undesired economic consequences impacting the bottom line, not to mention the companys stock price.

They are/will be faced with making recommendations to a new GI crop who wont have the luxury, or time, to study Y2K awareness issues in depth. Theyll want prep advice, pure and simple. To complicate the issue, diverse industry sectors may well face supply shortages by fall, so theres a likelihood of inaccurate recommendations made for ideal versus regionally available preps.

Even though were in the quiet time spring/summer, without a trigger event that cant be hushed up, at some time, the prep FLOOD will come. It may hit each of us, on and off the forum. At home and online. By then (we hope) less emphasis will be placed on Is it or is it not a problem? and more on How do I get ready, at what level, and for how long because my employer suggested I do something?

That kind of prep information is scattered, all over the net. And is time consuming to locate.

So, how DO we help those who stumble upon this wild and wacky world of Yourdonites forever?

Well, on first thought, we could start a secondary Greenspun forum for Prep Only links & info. This remains the in the moment as the Y2K worms turns get your red hot Y2K news n advice here forum. As the good prep stuff appears, those of us who can or can learn, can make a point of linking the Prep Only site to the key info? Shouldnt take much to do.

Another alternative, is to study the Millenium Salons (same Greenspun structure) and link with them on the prep side ...

Millennium Salons (Forum)

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic= Millennium%20Salons

Forum associated with The Millennium Salons web-site

http:// home.ica.net/~njarc/msalons/main.html

Interest? Comments?

Diane

BTW,

In monitoring, so far, for the newly GIs mentioned above, acknowledging as Chuck says ...

...it is in OUR OWN best interests to see that the new people receive the information that they need to do the level of preps they have time left to do, and do them effectively and efficiently (as time passes the ways to prep are going to change.)

And because we ...

...feel honor bound to make ourselves available to anyone who is willing to do the work to find where we hang out, and ask what suggestions we may have.

Suggestions are ...

 They will need calm, rational strategies for coping with this possible alternative universe.

 Help the new folks start thinking outside the box.

 Help them structure their thinking in the right (i.e. preparation) direction.

 Provide a set of info that allows them to go about preps in an efficient manner, not wasting whole days trying to do something one of us has found does not work.

 We could put together a list of our 25 best threads.

 How to most efficiently prep with limited $, time, and supplies.

 Updated tip of the week thread with supply alerts, changing trends (like: get your lamp oil now, not next week... not tomorrow ... but now...). And how to best store food when mylar bags, oxygen absorbers, and food buckets are no longer available????

 We'll definitely have to tailor our response to newbies by placing less emphasis on stuff and more on knowledge (Y2K Survival Documents)

 Put together a quick list of supplies -- and you may want to include a reason why a new GI might want those supplies. Like, of course you use the oil lamps when the power is off.

 A good quick shopping list that is pretty good for a short term solution. It can be expanded and added to for longer periods of time. Its at ... Rolands List

 Modified Bug Out Bag (BOB) that makes a good carry bag if you have to hoof it. That thread is at The Grey Bare Minimum Survival Bag

 Add small sections on water, power, and so on.

 Lead them to information that they will have to read and decide for themselves.

 Provide examples of what can be done in a short time.

 Survival is more than hunkering down with supplies". It is living by your knowledge and wits. It is educating yourself as to how things work in the natural world. It is being flexible and being able to move as the situation dictates. It is leaving as many options and doors open as possible.

 Advise people to buy mixed bags of supplies, that is, instead of saying umpty-ump pounds of rice for two months, how about this is roughly what you need for one week. Then instead of being stuck with 200lbs of rice, 300lbs of beans and no veggies, fruit or fuel, at least they might have enough until barter or some kind of aid or spring harvest or something ramps up.

 Water filtration using charcoal or wood ash or sand. Materials that may be available long after the store filters are gone. Same thing with food collection. (We have a pervasive weed in our neck of the woods that is edible in all stages of growth). May save some lives knowing about this. Maybe there are other ways to solve the food issue as well.

 Suggestions for books on gardening, edible weeds and flowers, herbs, composting, and self-sufficient living. When the libraries and internet are no longer forms of information, a library is considered a valuable asset.

 Pointers on alternatives that exist.

 Suggestions found most helpful personally -- to first prepare for 1 day without essential services. Then 2 days, then a week, then a month, and so forth. This gives those who choose to prepare obtainable and useful sub-goals.

 So long as there is still food on the grocery store shelves and electricity to power our computers, believe that we can have some positive impact in the time that remains.

 The list from "Chilkoot Trail Supplies" from the y2k_survlist site.

 A "one stop shopping" link.

 "Down and Dirty One Month Prep list for a Family of 4". We could put our collective heads together and come up with the content of the page. This way, new GI's will have a consistent page to go to for information, not a constantly changing and sometimes discouraging thread.

 It needs to be in an easily accessible location and only change as the current Y2K situation does. It needs to contain items that are easily and quickly accessible. It needs to convey a positive message.

 Would you rather your neighbors had one month worth of supplies or none? Which scenario will better benefit you and your family?

 The Usenet has been used as the depository for the info being talked about in this thread. They are the FAQ's. There is a good example at rec.food.canning

 Regular pointers could be posted into the various y2k and survivalism, etc. newsgroups and to various Forums and subscription lists, etc. indicating that at a particular Usenet addy there are regularly updated FAQ's.

 Having a search engine or a weekly alert thread is a good idea. It will help newbies search out information faster. Time is of the essence and think water, lots of it!

 Put together the "Cliff Notes" version of Y2K preparedness, Ed would be happy to provide a link to it from the "links and resources" section of his web site. There doesn't have to be just one such site, there can be two or three or a dozen.

 Concerns addressing the trend in the Y2K backlash movement the may eventually make it almost impossible for well-intentioned GI's to offer any help at all to the late-comers.

 A FAQ WEBSITE looks like a good idea.

 Start a secondary Greenspun forum for Prep Only links & info. As the good prep stuff appears, those of us who can or can learn, can make a point of linking the Prep Only site to the key info? (i.e. a Yourdon group becoming the "Pony Express" people and making the copies/links and posting them as needed to the alternate Read Only forum).

 Another alternative, is to study the Millenium Salons (same Greenspun structure) and link with them on the prep side.

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), March 28, 1999.

Diane: May I add few more things to your list? Ways to raise money FAST to pay for preparations. Once money is raised ideas on how to make your money go a very long ways. I'm hearing from several acquaintenaces that they don't have the funds to do it. Another area that needs to be addressed are ideas for storage areas. Water takes up a tremendous amount of room but it's the most important survival commodity that everyone must have.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), March 28, 1999.

Tanks, diane, makes thinking easier with a simple extracted list.

Chuck, off cogitatin'

-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), March 28, 1999.