I just want to reiterate what I said a couple days ago regarding repsponding to trolls and DGI/DWGI's. I see so much time and effort going into verbally jousting with them... time that could be spent much more profitably on other issues. Here's the bottom line:

A troll is a troll, and there is absolutely NO reason to respond to one. None whatsoever.

Any DGI who turns up on this particular forum is, IMO, looking for one of two things:

1. Reinforcement of their belief that Y2K will be a minor inconvenience at most, or...

2. Evidence that they are wrong in their assessment of Y2K.

From what I see, almost all the DGI's here fall into the first category. Ignore them too, because they aren't interested in having their minds changed, at least not yet. They will fight you every step of the way, and no amount of reason or logic will dissuade them. Their minds are closed. The remaining (small) percentage who are actually looking for evidence need only read some of the excellent postings, backed up by references and links, that prove we are in deep trouble. There is no need to proselytize these people - if they take the time to read what's been posted, they will come to the correct conclusions on their own, without assistance from any of us. That's not to say we should abstain from directing them to the information they're looking for, if they're honestly seeking it.

Post good, solid information on the situation, absolutely. Post ways to survive the consequences, by all means. Post your feelings about your preparations, certainly. Post endless responses to those who are either willfully ignorant or in denial, NO! Verbal battles and wordsmithing might have been fun a year ago, but look at the calendar - we don't have time for that now.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 13, 1999

Answers

I agree completely. We do not have the time to waste on troublemakers with closed minds. There's too much work to do.

I think they're just looking for attention. Don't give them what they want and they will go away.

-- cody (cody@y2ksurvive.com), March 13, 1999.

Agreed, closed minds are very frustrating. But identifying a closed mind is something I find almost impossible to do in practice. All to often, an 'open mind' describes anyone who comes to agree with me. A 'closed mind' means anyone whose analysis leads them to some conclusion different from mine.

There are people who say "OK, I've looked at all this stuff, and here's what I think about it and why." Then they produce what looks to me like unreasonable nonsense based on unsupportable assumptions. When I see this, I think one of us is pretty dumb. It's certainly comfortable to conclude that that one is not me, but is that true?

Who was it who wrote that you open your mind for the same reason you open your mouth, to close it again on something worthwhile?

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), March 13, 1999.

I agree with the part about the trolls. Trolls are abusive and not at all amusing or enlightening. I disagree when you're talking about DGI's. I get alot of insight and information while reading the exchanges between folks and people like Troll Maria and Paul Davis. They get flamed alot here, but they keep everything sharp and honest. Brainstorming the issues awakens new thought. I say, don't silence thoughtful opposition.

-- margie mason (mar3mike@aol.com), March 13, 1999.

Let's take a look at the stated purpose of this forum:

This forum is intended for people who are concerned about the impact of the Y2000 problem on their personal lives...

So, this forum is meant to serve the need of those who already acknowledge that Y2K is a problem, and that it may affect their lives. It's NOT a forum for those who believe otherwise.

...and who want to discuss various fallback contingency plans

The users of this forum should be interested in formulating plans for personal mitigation/remediation of the above problem, as in "how do I eat/stay warm/survive come Y2K?", rather than promulgating an endless string of pollyanna-isms espousing that "all will be well."

...with other like-minded people.

That is, with other folks who feel that Y2K is a problem, and who want to prepare to live through it. Those who think Y2K will be no big problem are, judging from the language of the forum purpose statement, are neither desired nor particularly welcome here. Surely other forums can fill their needs, leaving the rest of us here to get down to business.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 13, 1999.

Sparks,

A so-called DGI who seeks, in your words "reinforcement of their belief that Y2K will be a minor inconvenience at most" is not a DGI. She/he is a DWGI. I agree with your opinion that DWGIs & Trolls should not be fed. I try my best to avoid responding to them. There are a couple of regulars here (DWGI) whose posts I will not read because they more often than not cause my blood pressure to rise substantially.

"...The remaining (small) percentage who are actually looking for evidence need only read some of the excellent postings, backed up by references and links, that prove we are in deep trouble. There is no need to proselytize these people - if they take the time to read what's been posted, they will come to the correct conclusions on their own..."

I didn't realize there are "correct conclusions" which blanket this forum. In fact, IMHO, correct conclusions do not exist outside one's self. Opinions are appreciated. News reports as well (thanks Kevin, Diane, Leska, Drew, et al).

Great debates rage here on a daily basis. GI vs GI, DGI vs GI; these debates are invaluable. This is the very heart of the forum. Verbal jousting (as you put it), personal attacks aside, can provide each of us an opportunity for personal growth not limited to Y2K. One must be able to think "outside the box" in order to benefit from the grand efforts expended by the eloquent, caring, (often long-winded) Yourdonite Debaters.

I raise my glass in honor of the Word Warriors!! Salud!!

Thanks for your post, Sparks.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@pop.shentel.net), March 13, 1999.

SPARkY!!!!! YOu aRE AN INFIdEL!!!! WHy DO You spEND yOUR TIME SO FOoLishLY???? WHy canNOT YOu sToP WItH YOuR INSaNE FEAr OF taLKiNG TO TrOLLS???? IDioT!!!! CAn yOU NOT SKim paST THEm????? WHy IS The tHOUGHT That You maY WAStE 14 SEConDS OF YouR LIfe readIng a pOst yOU DO NoT Like so TErrIFYinG????? HELLo??? Why do JACkals SPend SO MUch tiME WOrried ABOuT THe behAVIoR OF OTHerS????? haS NOt diETER STAtEd BEfoRE THat yOu aRE NOt tO WOrrY ABouT STICkS And stOnes????? No???? YeS????? GO NOw, spARKinATOR!!!! SToP YOuR FEar anD FEEDINgs of trOLLs!!!! BE FOoLish NO moRe!!!!! HYeNA!!!!!

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), March 13, 1999.

This is not for the trolls. This is from Cory Hamasaki. Thought you might be interested.

"People, the problem hasn't changed. The work still hasn't been done; SAP is still not the answer; there are still card based systems out there in the world; and screwy things will happen when millions of systems transition to a new state.

When the big one hits, the same denial-heads who have been denonating the pomposity bombs will be just as confused as they are now. Those of us who are franticly cranking code will be just as frantic.

The people who are prepared will have their preparations to sustain them and the grasshopper will be eaten by the ants.

More later."

cory hamasaki 294 Days, 7,060 Hours http://www.kiyoinc.com/current.html

Wonder what the next weather report will have to say?

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), March 13, 1999.

When a troll makes sense, is it a troll?

Mary me DiETEr, you cute troll you!

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), March 13, 1999.

ChRiS!!! YoU INFiDElLLLLL!!!!! YoU LeaVe MY HOnEY ALoNE!! He IS MInE ALllll MMMMIiiiiNNNNNeeeee!!!!!!! YoU HEAr, You HyEana jACkALLLLLL!

-- Mrs.Dieter (answers@toask.com), March 13, 1999.

< soapbox >

DGI/DWGI's have a VERY specific function here, which some of you should have caught (ummm, perhaps one has..), and that is, to cause us (the worde "force" comes to mind but is a bit strong) to continually test and reevaluate our positions/assumptions/conclusions/preparations. I particularly used to enjoy Flint's posts as they challenged the size and shape of my comfort box, as did Diane's early posts. As it is, people like Vinnie, when I'm not in a lamentatious mood, now do something similar. They make me articulate what it is I see, or need to see. Until the threads take off into the stratosphere of ad hominem attacks, and our version of Paul Milne's "BUTTHEAD" (which I think is idiot but could be absurd idiot) gets tossed back and forth, without regard for the real or initial reason for the discussion.

We go through periods where, instead of a signal to noise ratio, we have what I like to refer to as a "Light to Heat" ratio, which can be an interesting measure of efficiency, depending on the goal. Here, the goal OUGHT to be lighting up the world, which means that when the L to H ratio goes down, so does efficiency, and when it goes up (using standard notation) the efficiency goes up.

'Course, being that we are all recruited from the human race (anybody know who's winning and what lap we're on?) we all do tend to add more heat than light on occasion ("Guilty as charged Your Honor, what is your preferred penance?" "Review all of the posts for the next six days without answering one, unless it is with life saving information" To which our putative defendant exits muttering something about a Kangaroo Court and not listening to the Judge again.)

Not exactly BTW;; Anyone who does not believe that people change, just go back to some of the really early posts from Diane, and compare them to the current set of mind as evidenced in the current posts. We occurred here at roughly the same time, and as anyone who has followed things will tell you (or your own research will bear out) our Senior Research Fellow has gone quite a ways from the Diana and come much closer to the Artemis. From "I'll be in the trees as you lumber through my forest with your guns" to, well, read any of the current threads. Not gone but very much changed is the belief that we have the ability to change the outcome of this thing by Community, and community Preparedness (and the capitalisation is EXACXTLY what I had in mind and NOT a typo). Some would call this maturation. Some would call it buying into the groupthink. And some would call it simple resignation to a nondisputable fact. (Dusting off the nomex undies!!)

Flint also shows the same type of change, from a fairly P - P - Nahh, can't use the word. From a position of expecting a low intensity event, he is now much closer, if you read WHAT IS SAID, to what passes for the mainstream hereabouts. (This is NOT a bad thing, sir, just my unbiassed observation. You have gotten to the "Prepare for the worst, hope for the best" place. Don't worry, the handshakes are simple to remember and the passwords are even easier!! < and finding the nomex baclava errr balaclava > ) This is also NOT an endorsement of the "mainstream hereabouts" as some have recently defined it. I do NOT see myself as an unregeneratable Doombrooder (tm). I do NOT see the end of everything I call the world as I know it (course, I've been acused of having a skewed world view, but that's for an evening in front of the fire with a couple Guinesses in hand). This may come as a small surprise to some, given what my suggestions and comments have been on tech preps. I'm still trying to PREPARE as if my world were going away, but I still want to work for either Libby Dole or John Kasich, and haven't figgered out HOW to make that happen, yet.

Wholly disregarding the skewedness of my world view, the AVAILABLE DATA, which I get to process into INFORMATION, suggests that regardless of how single-minded I get in terms of preparations over the next 8.5 months, I will be under-prepared. Now, am I going to stop?? NOT!! Am I going to only prepare?? NOT!! I get too much of an adrenaline rush standing out on Turn 8 and Turn 11 at MidOhio as the cars go by not to go as often as I can. YUP, It's PRIORITIES. In this case it's called I GOT A LIFE AND I GONNA LIVE IT!!

wHIch Is WhERe wE aLL ShoULd LanD Is iT NOt, dEItER ??

Chuck

PS ANYONE who considers Deiter a TROLL is SADDLY mistaken and hasn't spent enough time filtering as they TRY to read his(er) posts.

-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), March 13, 1999.

Interesting Chuck, but tell us, how do you realy FEEL?

...Ouch! *ducks*

-- cHRiS (catsy@pond.com), March 13, 1999.

Sparks you said:

Let's take a look at the stated purpose of this forum:

This forum is intended for people who are concerned about the impact of the Y2000 problem on their personal lives...

So, this forum is meant to serve the need of those who already acknowledge that Y2K is a problem, and that it may affect their lives. It's NOT a forum for those who believe otherwise.

...and who want to discuss various fallback contingency plans

The users of this forum should be interested in formulating plans for personal mitigation/remediation of the above problem, as in "how do I eat/stay warm/survive come Y2K?", rather than promulgating an endless string of pollyanna-isms espousing that "all will be well."

...with other like-minded people.

That is, with other folks who feel that Y2K is a problem, and who want to prepare to live through it. Those who think Y2K will be no big problem are, judging from the language of the forum purpose statement, are neither desired nor particularly welcome here. Surely other forums can fill their needs, leaving the rest of us here to get down to business.

Where does discussion of fruit cakes and circusses come in?

Don't get me wrong , I like these threads when I have time to read them(I do read all of csy2k every day) :) but maybe feading the trolls is another form of therapy?

-- (x@x.org), March 13, 1999.

sorry

feeding

-- (x@x.org), March 13, 1999.

In case you missed, I started a thread on this, just a few down. Got some good answers from the regulars here. <:)=

*** HELP *** - What is the mission of this fo...

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 14, 1999.

Chuck,

Thanks for the reminder.

Got buried in trying to figure out the extent of "mis" and "dis" information going on. It's hard to tell WHAT to prepare for until you understand the scope of the problem and all the vested interests trying to hide, or at least deflect attention on it.

The "C" in Community Creation is still there, and IMHO, the only way to go. It's also accompanied with a capital "P" on the Preparedness side, both individual and group.

Think a time out for re-orientation is called for, on many levels.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), March 14, 1999.