To Gary North - if you're reading this forumgreenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
I just read your post 'posting only this today.' Please don't mistake concern for dependence. I too had noticed the gap in your postings and wondered if something was wrong, but I don't know your e-mail address (not a request for it, just making a point. If I did know your e-mail, you might have heard from me before now).
Your site is one I value (daily) as I scan quickly for up-to-date info, so that I *don't* take more time than necessary to get caught up. I won't get into names here, but there are about half-a-dozen sites / people I would get concerned about if there were a significant gap in their communications. That doesn't mean I can't live without them. As the person who *did* e-mail you wrote, no one deserves a break more than you (and Ed, and Drew, and Cory, etc. Sorry, I know I'm dropping names). We just know that health and other problems strike everyone without warning, and we get concerned.
Now if I had posted a rumor you were seen boarding a black helicopter in the company of uniformed men wearing robin's egg blue helmets, I can understand you'd be peeved.
But no, we're just concerned.
Thanx for the excellent job you've been doing, please keep up the good work.
-- Cowardly Lion (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 11, 1999
Dear Cowardly: I will give you Gary's e-mail address if you e-mail me. I don't know if he wants it put on a forum. To much spam. I to, was concerned as to why there have not been many postings lately. We must understand that Gary has a life too. It is to his credit, that he has spent so much of his time helping the rest of us get a grip on y2k. The time will come, when none of us will have time to post anything. Scotty
-- Scotty (BLehman202@aol.com), March 11, 1999.
Either no time, or too much time and wish we didn't.
-- linda (email@example.com), March 11, 1999.
Gary North has been the one of the earliest commentators on Y2k. His prescient and consistently useful remarks have helped me in any number of ways and almost always a riot to read. I find myself agreeing with him as much as any other commentator, and if he over-simplifies things a bit too much for some you geeks out there, remember he does it to help paint the big picture, and in that regard he has been dead-on accurate.
If it weren't for Gary North, I know I would never have been informed about the problem back in the summer of '97. And if he never said another word on the subject from this day forward, his contributions to our awareness and (hopefully) preparations would have been unequalled by anyone else I could name. Even Ed Yourdon's book (which was indeed another great contribution to awareness) came out a year or more after Gary had been sending out Y2k info.
He's a great man and I wish him the best.
-- Dr. Roger Altman (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 11, 1999.
Thanx, Scotty, I'm not looking for his e-mail. I can't imagine what I'd ask him one-to-one he hasn't already covered in-depth at his site. I'm just responding to his apparent concern about those of us who regularly visit his site (and notice immediately when he's not there).
He seemed to think we were reading to the detriment of doing, and I wished to reassure him that although we value his site / insight highly, if he decided to retire from the business we would not all go into deep depression.
-- Cowardly Lion (email@example.com), March 11, 1999.
I too would like to express my deepest thanks and appreciation to Gary North. I try to visit his site at least every other day if not daily because I know he visits so many sites and spends so much time gathering pertinent info.
I try to read a variety of sites but there is just too much to do between working full time, traveling with work (won't be flying next year!), selling and moving to a new home (kind of late but we hope to get it done), and getting prepared for a 7 or 8 on the Y2K scale (hoping and praying for less). Gary is an invaluable resource for information and alerts.
I hope someday he can truly know how many people read his site, have been helped and are deeply greatful!!
I've wondered a couple times in the past when he hasn't posted too much but I assumed there either wasn't too much of note or the guy needed a rest.
Thanks again Gary!!
-- CP (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 11, 1999.
Dittos to Gary North, without him and others, I would be DGI.
-- bardou (bardou@baloney. com), March 11, 1999.
Hi everyone I'd like to add my appreciation of Gary North's contribution to the Y2K debate. Gary's fear is that people are not preparing. Well I for one have been preparing and attempting to get others to prepare. Gary has helped me speak with authority and knowedge to some very important people. I was given the opportunity to speak with power distribution coordinator, a chief mechanic responsible for oil and gas pumping stations of some very large pipelines going to the US. I've been able to speak to electrical inspectors and bankers. I walk into my bank and I'm asked to discuss any information that I have and they are very honest and direct about the information they give me. I've contributed to other colleges and business institutions across our province. Lastely I've had the opportunity to discuss Y2K with legal people and with very influential business people. So Gary don't feeling that people are not getting the mesage is not correct. Gary, your site has made a very large contribution to awarness and change. It's just that some of us are so busy getting the job done that we are not able to tell you or others of our efforts. I would like to thank you and everyone who is sincerly interested in solving this problem. I have prepared my family for the worst and anyone who would listen. We will have many problems but we will survive. Y2K.AOK.Lou
-- Louie (email@example.com), March 11, 1999.
And yet, Herr North has no problem publishing others e-mail addy's on his site. Well, all's fair in love and war...
I know how much he likes to hear from his "fans"...make no mistake about it...I just love Brer Gare, and I'm happy to help!
-- Mutha Nachu (---@simplestandofpines.com), March 11, 1999.
Mutha, where else do you troll? I'd like to see some more of your work..
-- Lisa (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 11, 1999.
Gary announced 2 or 3 months ago that the time would come (soon) that there would be so many other postings on the net and articles in the news that not only wouldn't he be able to keep up with them all, he wouldn't need to either. My guess is that those addicted to his site (I'll raise my hand) are also/have already prepared. We're browsing to the detriment of the rest of our lives, not Y2K preps.
-- Brooks (email@example.com), March 11, 1999.
Well my goodness! And every time I bring up Gary's name I get covered up with replies that "I only use his site for the links". Of course, I know that is not always true - else why would so many quotes from his carefully selected 'tidbits' be floating around over here? Ah, well, must remember to bookmark this thread - - -
-- Paul Davis (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 11, 1999.
I worry about North being hauled away by the black suits. When he doesn't post for a few days, I wonder if they got him! His is the first site I hit when I log on. Take care Dr. North.
-- Dave (email@example.com), March 11, 1999.
... More likely he was carried away by the guys with the "white" coats.. :-)
Maybe he finally figured it out and is out trying to sell off his barn full of dehydrated food!
Yours in COBOL... Dino!
-- COBOL Dinosaur (COBOL_Dinosaur@yahoo.com), March 11, 1999.
To All the Clueless,
This is what bro Gare is up to. He's pushing "Dear Karen's" new book.
Get a clue!!
-- Fly (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 11, 1999.
I don't have anywhere near the time and resources to scan all of the available news sources for pertinent stories. It was either Gary's or another similar site I first came across the Peach Bottom nuclear story. These kinds of references are incredibly important!!!!! When I can tell friends and family about these *documented* y2k misadventures, I create more GI's. I work with two 25%'ers, and they're only that far along because every few days I can pass along authoritative evidence we're in trouble.
Gary may not be necessary to a GI, but he and his compatriots provide necessary backup to the 'conversion' cause.
Gary, Drew, Cory, Ed, everyone else including most of the posters on this forum, please please please keep those cards and letters coming. We're wearing down their resistance!!
-- Cowardly Lion (email@example.com), March 11, 1999.
Only use Gary North's site for the links??? Yeah, right, and I only buy Playboy and Penthouse for the articles. Sheesh.
-- King of Spain (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 11, 1999.
The Cowardly Lion showing friends and relatives "documented misadventures" and speaking of "wearing down the resistance" of others smacks of cultism and the selective reporting provided by Gary North. Comparatively speaking, I could go into the newspaper on specific days and pull out box scores and persuade people (who don't follow baseball) that Mark McGwire is a lousy hitter by showing them information only on days that he does poorly, like going 0-4. If they don't do their own research and listen to me, they will agree and tell others that Mark McGwire is lousy. This is the premise that Gary North operates on. The weak and stupid are his sheep and messengers.
It's amazing how people will grasp on to a specific negative article such as the recent power plant problem and draw their own conclusions. Yet, when a company such as ComEd, the largest utility in Illinois, states that it is 87% complete, everyone cries that they are lying. Even more amazing and frightening is that people will take a guy like Gary North at face value. Gary North could care less about you or I, regardless of how you are preparing. Anyone who listens to him is an unwitting tool in his attempt to create panic and profit. He has tried to scare people before, and failed. He preys upon weak minds, culls stories that fit his motives and skews the truth with his "spin" while accusing others of doing the same. A good example is when he uses his dreaded "California White Paper" and applies it to embedded systems remediation. In doing this, it exposes him either as stupid or deceptive. In short, he is lying.
I'm not dismissing Y2K as a major problem by any stretch. I am dismissing Gary North as a source of Y2K information. If you want to learn, do your own homework.
-- Frank Booth (email@example.com), March 11, 1999.
"He preys upon weak minds, culls stories that fit his motives and skews the truth with his "spin" while accusing others of doing the same."
Frank..sure sounds like our favorite y2k Czar
-- Mike Lang (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 11, 1999.
A good example is when he uses his dreaded "California White Paper" and applies it to embedded systems remediation. In doing this, it exposes him either as stupid or deceptive. In short, he is lying.
OK, Frank, why don't you take us to school as the saying goes and educate us? Show us why the Dreaded Paper is not applicable to embedded systems. Then also prove that North does not believe that it is applicable to embedded systems, and is intentionally being untruthful (since I doubt anyone could possibly believe that North is stupid).
-- Jack (email@example.com), March 11, 1999.
I disagree. Gary North's newest links...
...along with "Sanger's Review of Y2K News Reports"...
...and Excite's news search engine...
...are all valuable sources of current news on Y2K.
-- Kevin (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 11, 1999.
Lisa: BIFFY is the only other place Mutha posts. I'd have to let the seasons run wild if I tried to keep up with the lunacy at all the fear-asylums on the 'net... but this one really does amuse me! (mainly cuz of posts like 'c. lions')
Dino: Don't think he'll sell til later this year...and then, only for a profit (remember he said "if the price was right") He is a clueless die-hard "10" on the rectu...er..richter scale!
C Lion: you said "It was either Gary's or another similar site I first came across the Peach Bottom nuclear story. These kinds of references are incredibly important!!!!! When I can tell friends and family about these *documented* y2k misadventures, I create more GI's"
It is for this reason North should have his 'bottom' spanked!. Documented how? By Cowles? CH? or some other member of the 'circle jerk of fear'? They feed off each other pally... get in the know before you try and 'convert' people to your meme induced y2k religion.
I'm willing to bet that most of the 'spin' put out on PB was due to those who are "anti-nuke", since nothing 'bad' actually came of the test. Just another excuse for the frog-lickin' tree huggers to try and push their agenda.
And in addition, they get an added bonus of the meme's like you, regurgitating their crappy info...for free.
All because of the meme. Boy, are you in for a shock this Jan.
the nature of the meme
be sure to read the other link about e-mail virus hoaxes as well...highly enlightening.
Do yourself a favor and stick to actual data instead of hearsay... it will save you much embarrasment (and probably cash, too) in the long run.
-- Mutha Nachu (---@termitesgetinyourwoodenhead.com), March 11, 1999.
I don't trust Mutha Nachu's opinions on Y2K. There's too much attitude there for her to be able to think objectively.
-- (email@example.com), March 11, 1999.
I thought Mutha was a troll, but after reading that "meme" BS, I have changed my mind (meme?). Deranged wacko is more like it! (Gawd, makes JBD seem sensible.)
-- King of Spain (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 11, 1999.
Mutha is a die-hard cynic. She probably never believed we had an energy crisis in the mid 1970s.
-- (email@example.com), March 11, 1999.
I adore Mutha. I just worry about him/her.. don't get the impression he/she - I'd say he - is doing any preparation.
Arrogant, condescending: yep; entertaining: hell, yes.
-- Lisa (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 11, 1999.
A sample of Mutha Nachu's wit and wisdom
-- (John@Q.Public), March 11, 1999.
We have a saying down south that applies to mutha nachu - 'his cornbread ain't baked!'
-- (knowsher email@example.com), March 11, 1999.
King of Spam: It's 'MEME'; rhymes with 'dream' which you would know if you read the post at the link provided. I know its probably asking too much of your room temperature I.Q., but what the heck. So try using all 3 of your synapses at once, and see if you can't get thru this bad ol doom meme... and BTW, you might want to be careful who you call a 'deranged wacko' (try a look in the mirror, you mud-wrestlin'-on-the-mind-constantly perv)...unless you want to end up in an aluminum overcoat, smartass!
Lisa: Stop... I'm blushing! And don't you worry none 'bout me, my little chickadee...I'll be just fine! (psst!...you forgot 'caustic, sarcastic, and highly prone to ad hominem' lol! But I do it with such style, ne pas?) John colon Public: Naw, these are better... Andy "I wanna be like Ivan" Y2K Dave, 'Idiot Hall of Fame' candidate The uninformed's rating scale Again, w/Dave(he just keeps gettin' up...sigh...) Some melon-head fumble butt's To name just a few. As for the rest of youse... I can barely see you... y'll r so dense, light bends around ya! (that was a slam, in case you didn't... "GI" !)AHHHHA HAH HAH HA HAHA ha ha... ta-ta, kiddies!
-- Mutha Nachu (---@peltingsleet.com), March 11, 1999.
My Thanks and God's Blessing upon Gary North. He is directly responsible for my finally understanding the threat Y2K could possibly be to me, my family, friends, neighbors, co-workers and community. All of whom I have warned, as I have been warned, to prepare. So just through one person's heeding his warning and acting many people may be spared needless suffering. We all owe him a great debt of gratitude. When I hear people questioning his motives it makes me certain they have no credible response to his MESSAGE. They are people who disregard a message without reference or investigation into the truth the message contains, by branding them as from a questionably reliable source. That kind of thinking will eventually bring the people who practice it to a situation such as hanging up on a late nite phone call from a drunken neighbor calling to tell them their house is on fire or they will ignore a retarded child trying to warn them their child is hurt and needs help. "Consider the source" is an aloof, pretentious, sound bite excuse for ignoring the work thinking requires and the response and responsibility TRUTH demands.
-- Ann Fisher (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 12, 1999.
Gary North's detractors are just fleas nipping away at the giant that he is. A year ago I would never have believed that me - a young and groovy psychedelic/athiest utilitarian anarchistic hedonist - would have a nerdy middle-aged Calivinist as a hero, but here we are. His voluminous work is not flawless, but it's certainly close enough for (anti-)government work. He's a 10 and I'm more of a 9, but if it weren't for him I still be as much in the dark as Mutha Nacho, Pual Davis and the other einsteins over at GNiaBFI.
GN, thank you.
-- humpty (email@example.com), March 12, 1999.
Stop...STOP! Please, I .... can't ... breathe ...
I'm laughing so hard!!!
'giant'? GIANT Grifter is more like it!!!!
A HAH HAH HAH ha ha ha!!!
"Gary North is a big, fat idiot...the webpage says so!"
(if any of you knew his true motives...you would be angry at him instead of worshiping him)
-- Mutha Nachu (---@justcallme'flea'.com), March 12, 1999.
Normally I ignore posters such as yourself, but today I will make an exception.
I *didn't* take Gary's word for it, I *did* research it myself. Please take the trouble to check out
It's the Nuclear Regulatory Commission's weekly report. Please find the week-ending February 12, 1999, report, and go to the Region I section. The Peach Bottom report is the first item. I'm typing slowly so you can follow along easily.
I'm sure you feel better now that you know it *is* documented. Can *you* handle the truth?
-- Cowardly Lion (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 12, 1999.
Ann- Do you have any clue as to what North's basic ideologies are? What his Christian Reconstructionist theories are? That he has said before that he WANTS Y2K to cause the breakdown of society? Y2K is a technology problem, but North has no technology background. Yet you see him as an expert and take him at his word. Then you turn around and tell your friends, relatives, and community members, who in turn take your word for it. If that is the case, they are just as weak-minded and as foolish as you. Of course, you will question government, organizations, and the media, but you won't even think to question Gary, since in your mind, he is the keeper of the truth. Did it ever occur to you that he operates in the same manner as the mass media, by putting his own "spin" on stories? Did you notice how he carefully selects his stories? Remember Heaven's Gate and David Koresh's cults? Congratulations, because you are a member of Gary North's cult, non-thinker, and you are spreading his word.
Note to Jack, re: California White Paper
Working on embedded systems is much different than working on software. Most of the time is spent on inventory and assessment of the embedded systems. Not only is this common knowledge in most electronics environments, I have seen it first hand at two of our companies. Moreover, just use common sense. Let's assume that between 1% and 5% (high numbers) of embedded systems may have date-related problems. However, you need to check and/or test 100% of your automated systems in order to insulate yourself against problems. Once you have done that and pinpointed your problems, you need to fix those 1%-5%, validate, and re-test(I'm simplifying). Just a note: Out of 200 automated systems in our 2 companies, only 1 had a potential date issue, and that turned out to be immaterial. So, in our case, out of 200 systems, we only had to take a hard look at just 1. (Our equipment includes time-activated molding presses, digital controllers on CNC machines, as well as some pollution control, chemical dispersal, and testing equipment). If you were to take a look at Commonwealth Edison's website in November, you would have seen that they had assessed, tested, and deployed only about 17% of their embedded systems. Now that number is up to 94%. Additionally, I spoke to an instructor who has consulted to utilities for over 20 yrs all over the country. He told me that the embedded systems problem was way overrated, but that it was great for business, so he wasn't going to be the one to blow the whistle on the hype machine. According to him, utilities face problems on a daily basis (some major) but generally have several work-arounds in order to counter problems. You probably won't believe this information, since it doesn't conform to what you believe, but if you do your own first-hand research, you'll probably find similar results.
-- Frank Booth (email@example.com), March 12, 1999.
Frank, I have to look at this in the same view as "my cousin Val, who is as Honest As The Day Is Long, works at a bank, and She Says yada-yada-yada". You may be correct in everything you say, but indeed I have done my own research, and the multi-phase steps required for assured Y2K compliance do not provide for shortcuts per se. Obviously, if at the completion of the Inventory step, it was determined that, miraculously, everything was indeed 100% Y2K compliant (and this includes responses back from suppliers, vendors and customers that they were 100% compliant), then indeed the rest of the Y2K project would obviously go fast and cheap. What the Dreaded Paper presents should only be taken as an "average", and indeed there could be exceptions -- some might take longer and cost more, some might not take so long and cost less. But to use the Dreaded Paper to gauge where a Y2K project is, is certainly not being irresponsible, much less dishonest.
-- Jack (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 12, 1999.
The bottom line still is that the California White Paper was designed as an assessment of Y2K software remediation and has absolutely nothing to do with embedded systems. In that vein, it is ineffective as a gauge for embedded systems progress. We are talking about apples and oranges here.
Additionally, the paper was written in 1996, so it does not even factor in various remediation tools that have come about over the last several years, nor does it have any historical data to back up what it purports. State and local governments put out reports like this all of the time, and often they are more speculative than factual.
It is curious that Gary North is one of the first to call governments liars or to question the reliability of their information. However, when a government puts out a document that works to his advantage, as in this case, he does not question it: Instead, he preaches it as gospel.
-- Frank Booth (email@example.com), March 12, 1999.
Here are two GN-centered classic discussions: One and Two
Blasts from the past - you'd enjoy these, Mutha....
-- Lisa (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 12, 1999.
OK, Frank, those are valid observations and worth consideration by everyone. Maybe, if one looks hard enough, one can find a more up to date and accurate equivalent of the California White Paper to use instead; maybe not. (The problem, I am sure, is to put out such a document about Here Is How To Do It And How Long It Takes And Much It Costs, you normally need to have at least one completely done project of a reasonable size to reference. Unfortunately, so far, no such Y2K project seems to meet this criteria. But, thats an aside.)
But lets not immediately condemn anyone who uses the White Paper to gauge a Y2K project, and certainly not allege outright dishonesty if one does so.
-- Jack (email@example.com), March 12, 1999.
And the ultimate irony: the state of California is in very deep kimchee in its Y2K work. Our new governor must now be wondering just why he campaigned so hard for the job..
When the news about our Y2K status came out a few weeks back, I commented to some colleagues that the White Paper must have been a major project deliverable and that everyone must have stopped monitoring once it had been produced...
-- Mac (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 12, 1999.
Jack, aside from the date, I am not questioning the validity of the Cal White Paper as it pertains to software remediation. I am saying that it does not apply to embedded systems. If North is the expert that he claims to be, then he should know this. When he says in a particular article "Utility X has completed it's inventory and assessment of embedded systems: Only 90% to go. They will never make it", he is either stupid or being deceptive. I agree with others: Gary North is hardly stupid. Stupid people are not as manipulative nor as calculating as he. Therefore, I take the tact that North is attempting to "twist the truth" and deceive, by applying the metrics for the Cal Paper software remediation to embedded systems. If he were really attempting to provide a public service, he would just collect news without spinning it. It's apparent that he does not do this.
When I think of Gary North, I think of the Twilight Zone episode called "To Serve Man". Briefly, aliens that have landed on Earth purporting to help mankind leave behind a book at the UN. Shortly thereafter, scientists decode the title of the book, which is called "To Serve Man". People think that the aliens are here to help. As the humans, who now trust the aliens, are being led into their ships, the scientists decode the rest of the book. Just as one of the chief scientists is being led into the ship, his assistant shows up screaming "It's a cookbook!" But it is too late. Guess what, Northites. Gary North's Links and Forums isn't there to help you. It's a cookbook, and you're the main course.
-- Frank Booth (email@example.com), March 12, 1999.
There are many good reasons for taking Y2K seriously. Gary North's collection of news items is just one of many.
-- Kevin (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 12, 1999.
I like Gary North. He is aware that America shall soon experience another Great Depression. He is warning all those who need to GI.
Gary a true patriot, and I hope that God continues to bless him!
-- dinosaur (email@example.com), March 12, 1999.
Fine, if it helps, think of North as the "Y2K prosecutor" -- thats the way I always view him. But the facts that he brings up cannot be dismissed because of whatever "hidden agenda" he supposedly has. In fact, let me tell you: If Gary North "'fessed up" and stated that he was using Y2K as a con job, that he himself didn't believe that Y2K would be any big deal, and further thought anyone who did must be really stupid and gullible, I personally would still believe that Y2K is going to be TEOTWAWKI based on the evidence that North and others have documented.
Anyway, until such time that someone can produce a better gauge, I think the California White Paper is probably as good as we seem to be able to get. And when applied to embedded systems rather than "pure" software, one simply need to note that, as you have done.
-- Jack (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 12, 1999.
Adding to the group's thanks to GN.
At first, he overwhelmed. Now, he still informs. He's almost mainstream now, as he predicted he might be by 1999-end.
Increasingly, he warns us about the closing doors on certain preparation steps and products. You choose your y2k level 1-10, and prepare accordingly. I think his effect is to MAKE you choose, and by maintaining a consistent 10, he forces us to think and re-think the "unthinkable".
In the Titanic analogy, he goes back down into the below-decks, to send us up to the lifeboats (which may yet launch only partly-filled).
As for banking, as he said on Art Bell (paraphrase): "If a couple oddballs like us can bring down the banking system, then it's probably not a very good system."
y2k seems to have brought out the best of his intelligence, communication skills, and humor, as well as that of many others. People holding many widely-opposed political and theological views are brought together in crisis, hopefully appreciating each other for their intelligent contributions. After y2k, continued reconciliation?
-- jor-el (email@example.com), March 13, 1999.
Those who fret about Gary North not posting new stuff everyday are dependant on his comments and guidance, not the missing links he provides. Every important links he gives are given by other sites, and get here as quickly as they get on North's site.
Sanger's Review is quick on the trigger, try that as a detox substitute, if you're really only looking for the raw links.
or even Y2KToday http://www.y2k today.com/modules/home/default.asp
Or just stick around here, you'll get the links within an hour they are posted anywhere on the net. Gary North doesn't have any magical powers to get to links others don't.
-- Chris (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 13, 1999.