dinosaur said:

to a:

The main problem of the forthcoming panic will be this: HOW WILL YOU REACT WHEN IT HAPPENS? Will you be there to guide the sheeple or will you be sequestered in your glorified foxhole? Remember, YOU know what will most likely happen and have taken appropriate measures. Please be kind to the newbie GIs and help them out

-- dinosaur (dinosaur@williams-net.com), February 19, 1999.

dino: first of all, I don't know what will happen. All I know is that I think the potential for a monumental disaster is in the making. But I could be wrong. After all, I've predicted a depression or a market crash almost every year since 1987!

As for helping the sheeple, my idea of helping has been to warn everyone I come in contact with regardless of whether they think I am nuts (some are now calling me "the wacko") or whether it will later make me a target. However, beyond that, I am not participating in community preparedness and plan to bug out to a rural area. I tried to organize activity in my neighborhood last year, Aug-Dec timeframe, with NO results. Only laughter, glazed over eyes and ridicule. Maybe I was too early. But when TSHTF, I'm not risking my life trying to help people that wouldn't listen. In this respect, I tend to agree with Paul Milne.

-- a (a@a.a), March 10, 1999

Answers

As time goes along, I'm wondering if there WILL be a panic. I detect an odd and unexpected fatalism. Even when people agree that there may be a big problem, they'll say "then I guess we'll die," or "eh, I'm not going to worry about it." Maybe the same process that has softened peoples bodies the past forty years has also softened their minds to the point that they've lost the will to live. Shades of Spengler's "Decline of the West." Whatever brio that causes a people to build empires gets spent in the epicurean heyday, and that people passes from the stage of history, replaced by tougher, more resilient peoples. Anyone else pick up these sort of fatalistic comments in your fin-de-siecle travels?

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), March 10, 1999.

Saw these on GN's site a few months back. Not sure if he said them or not, but words to consider:

They won't prepare, but they will remember.

If you feed them, they will return.

My two cents worth: send around an anonymous letter to your neighbors (and one to yourself for cover) telling them what's up with Y2K, that they'd better prepare, and how to do it. After that, I feel that morally you're off the hook. They will have been warned.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 10, 1999.

We've been warning everyone in the family and all of our friends for almost a year with virtually no success. We finally hooked up with a few other people who are also preparing, just to talk. So far, we're still on our own when it goes down. I can't imagine turning family members away if they show up empty-handed, but we sure won't be happy with them.

Kim

-- Kim (paranoid@aol.com), March 10, 1999.

Center off

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 10, 1999.

center off nowHowzat?

-- a (2@a.a), March 10, 1999.

center off

-- Online2Much (ready_for_y2k@mindspring.com), March 10, 1999.

Thanks, Online, and sorry to all for the goof.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 10, 1999.

When I first learned about Y2K, I talked to a couple of people about it, gave them information and was poo pooed. I figured with that kind of response from a couple people, then that's the same response I would get from others. I'm the one who has suffered through the emotional aspect of Y2K. With every sack of rice, beans and canned goods I have packed away it has had an emotional effect on me. Why should those that I have warned skate through the emotions and preparations and dine at my table? There will be some losers and some winners, that's just the way life is. Their lack of foresight does not constitute an emergency on my part.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), March 10, 1999.

Abbra-cadabra, CENTER off

-- Lurker (eye@spy.net), March 10, 1999.

There's lots we can do to "guide the sheeple" if the panic hits before the rollover. After the rollover, I don't foresee much that wouldn't end up endangering my family's welfare. My main contribution may turn out to be staying out of the shelters. I am willing to give away some of my food and water, but it isn't "extra" if I don't know how long the hardtimes will last.

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), March 10, 1999.

I have a stack of lists of foods etc for preparation and I will happily give those to those who ask. But as far as getting caught up in the panic, forget it!! Thats why we prepare. I am not getting clobberd over the head with a #10 can of tomatoes, or trampled in the aisle headed for the meat dept. You are damn right that we are going to hole up in our well supplied bunker. Our immediate neighbors know and are preparing and we have enuff to look after another neighbor whose hubby is bedridden and she is on dialysis. We just included them as a given, tho we haven't really discussed it with them. They have enuff on their plate as it is.

-- Taz (tassie@aol.com), March 10, 1999.

Dino asks a good question here. Since I'm already quite rural I do not plan to bug out, unless a 10 is bigger than even _I_ think is a 10. :-) So that leaves me with scattered neighbors over several miles, only a few of whom are now preparing in any way, but many of the people knowing about y2k through my own efforts from months ago and from the increased media attention.

Since I have some profile established and people approach me as either the crazy or the guy with info, for those who want prep info I'm using a printout of:

http://www.greatdreams.com/basic.htm

Am personally unclear as to what my actions will be if hungry or crazed people come a knockin'. My ethics and morality say that I should render help if possible. Those same ethics and morals give no answer if that help will, in the longer run, be negative for my own survival.

Unlike bardou, I consider my neighbors' lack of y2k prep my problem, even if those neighbors are ones who I've told to prep, or even if they just learned about y2k on 31Dec99. Those folks are part of my life for many years now. Do I turn them away? Do I feed them? Do I harden my heart and cast those out who lacked forsight or listened with closed ears?

What about late arriving relatives and inlaws, and their hangers-on, all coming bare handed and in need?

Even two years of food for two or three can be wiped out in less than six months if one is totally open and feed all who might ask.

The rules of thumb I'm currently using as a guide are:

1. Contact any relatives, in-laws, friends who just might make it here, and lay out the situation for them. If they even think they might bug out to this location, they need to contribute $75 person/ year for basic grains that I will purchase and store under their name. If they wish to send food I want to approve the type of food and quantities first, controlling storage constraints and junk food influx. In addition for each person/year: $50 kerosene, $25 drip system supplies, $25 personal sundries and food stuffs. Minimum 1 year.

2. If people approach in aggression, turn them away with force only if necessary. If same people approach in aggression a second time I would consider violence only after non-violent attempt to deal with situation. If armed encounter is necessary, those who are not killed and put into the compost pile will be forced to remove shoes and boots, in addition any captured will branded upon their facial cheek with an easily seen distinguishing mark, if same person returns in aggression and isn't killed, again boot and shoe removal and the amputation and cauterization of both big toes, after which they will be driven off.

3. If approached by those in need, administer bread, water, and care, if appropriate, then determine if the individual has needed skills sufficient to warrent taking onboard. If not they must travel on, and if they refuse, see #2.

4. If approached by those in need, but who are bringing supplies with them. Appraise the supplies and their intention, either helping them to settle or asking them to move on.

5. All aggression against hard infrastructures such as garden, fuel, water, etc will be immediately treated as in #2.

Just some random thoughts on all this maddness.

-- Mitchell Barnes (spanda@inreach.com), March 10, 1999.

Mitchell, are you some kind of idiot? You gonna make them take their shoesies off? And second offense you gonna whack their big toe?

LOL

Five rounds of .223 in their buttocks or kneecap is how I plan to deal with unwanted guests.

-- - (-@-.-), March 10, 1999.

"...I detect an odd and unexpected fatalism. Even when people agree that there may be a big problem, they'll say "then I guess we'll die," or "eh, I'm not going to worry about it."

Dear Spidey,

My wife and I get the same reaction from many people. She is working in the background organizing meetings, writing articles, etc. to light people's fire.

Even if she converts one DWI to GI, it will be worth it.

"Maybe the same process that has softened peoples bodies the past forty years has also softened their minds to the point that they've lost the will to live. Shades of Spengler's "Decline of the West."

I believe this to be true because as a child I was "dense," was often physically beaten, emotionally abused, told that I was stupid. Because of this I did not do well in school.

Then I became a slave.

I was held captive because of my mental state. Had I known better I could have escaped long before.

My mental state prevented me to do well and kept me in slavery. I believe that our country is now in a similar aggregate mental state, not only because of Y2K but because of a lot of other events that have occured over the years.

I believe it was Nikita who something like said: "You will fall like an overripe fruit." It's obvious that this fruit is rotten.

-- Not Again! (seenit@ww2.com), March 10, 1999.

Oh yeah, I saw that episode, then she karate kicked the hell out of him!

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), March 10, 1999.

To help sheeple in the panic::

Just quote one line from Conception Corporation (or was it Python)::

"Right this way to the abattoir"

unregenerated Hippy

-- nopenodope (z@z.z), March 10, 1999.

-- - (-@-.-), March 10, 1999. wrote

Mitchell, are you some kind of idiot? You gonna make them take their shoesies off? And second offense you gonna whack their big toe?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Person Dash. You do what you want, at least I have the balls to have made some plans on dealing with a very thorny problem without having to kill someone, except in extremis.

Person Dash, YOU try and walk for any distance without shoes or boots lately? Without the big toes it is very hard to maintain balance.

The point being is that dead people don't advertise, live branded or maimed ones do, and if by their very presence tell others that they are or have been a preditor and should be watched, so much the better for the community at whole.

It is easy to Contingency Plan for killing preditors. I ain't slid so far back that I have forgotten my ethics, morals, respect for reasonable laws, and for due process. CP's that only deal with preditors by killing are very wimpy, not very well thought through CP's, imho.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here is another kind of Preditor. One of your valuable members at your compound, house, bugout, etc. becomes ill with a deadly communicative disease. This fact needs immediate action on part of your community. How do you deal with it?

-- Mitchell Barnes (spanda@inreach.com), March 10, 1999.

Mitchell: It has taken you a long time to build a friendship with your neighbors and you have been involved. None of our neighbors have a clue nor do they want to be clued in, is that my fault or problem? It's not a hardening of the heart, it is the cruel reality that some people will die. There is not one single thing any one of my neighbors can offer me in the way of assistance. We have lived in this house for 3+ years and everyone keeps to themselves. Since there is no comraderie, it will be interesting to see what happens WTSHTF. I expect there will be people coming to our door, but heh, no problemo telling them I don't have anything to offer. I shall act ignorant and just as uniformed as they are. What can I possible say to my neighbor who has a master's degree in laser technology and reminds you that he is educated and there's nothing to worry about? Or the 90 year old man who has lived through wars and the depression and the only thing he's concerned about is getting his SS check? Or the CHP officer who son has a master's degree in computer science and tells Dad that it's all hype? Or the cable guy with 3 kids who doesn't give a rats ass about your comfort level when his kid and friends practice their acid rock band music in their garage every single night? Or the neighbor who thinks that the CIA/FBI are listening to her conversations through the cable wires...yes, I do live in an interesting place, and I am not sorry to say that there's anything I can do to help these people, they are hopeless and do not have a clue.....until TSHTF.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), March 10, 1999.

That should fix the center problem I hope.

-- Tod (muhgi@yahoo.com), March 10, 1999.

Mitchell: If someone has a communicable disease you isolate that person from the rest of the community. If he/she bugs out and comes back and is ill you still isolate them. However, you don't know who they are going to come back with. Remember our chat about forest fires and how vulnerable we are? Just takes one strike of a match and it's all over for us! Better know who you are letting into your community first...even then if you make them leave they may get even.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), March 10, 1999.

Mitchell,

I would suggest that you seriously reconsider your "Contingency Plan".

Speaking only for myself, I must tell you that if you were to "brand" me in any way or to amputate any member of my body, for any reason, I would immediately and irrevocably devote the remainder of such life as I might have to ending yours, regardless of consequences.

I would further suggest that there are others who hold similar values, some of whom might show up at your door (I surely will not).

In short, even without consideration of the ethics and/or morality of your "Plan", it simply wouldn't be a smart move at all.

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), March 10, 1999.

Yeah, Hardliner's right. Don't make enemies, who might get together and find that there are more of them than there are of you.

Making corpses, on the other hand does present a disposal problem. In the right climate, you set 'em on high poles, and let the world jerk them, slice it and offer it to the next bunch.

Nah, the health dept won't let you sell jerky without a license. Just bury 'em.

cr

-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), March 10, 1999.

Hardliner, thanks for the response! This is the sort of dialog I'd like to see in Yourdan more often!

My question is then if branding preditors is out, then what does one do? Arbitrarily shoot all? That does not seem like a very useful response, in that, there will be preditors who are not armed. Are you saying that we should gird ourselves, shoulder the responsibility, and become jury, judge, and executioner? Shall we throw away long used morals and ethics, in light that this is a whole new ballgame?

I'm really curious about this area of thought. For those who have read JWRawles "Triple Ought", you know I lifted the branding idea from his book, realizing that it is repugnant for most people, as is the maiming. However, while I believe I can use a gun to kill, not having done it yet does give me pause, ... what if I'm unable to do it when I have to? Then what?

This is why I'm saying that any CP that depends solely upon killing preditors isn't a very comprehensive CP. My CP must include not only what I think I can do, but it must incorporate plans that will be there if I'm unable to do what I, now, think I could in extremis.

So the question is: if killing is out of the question, for whatever reason, how does one rid themselves of preditors, armed or not?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

bardou, I realize about isolation and only understand it in context of modern hospitals. I was referring to situations in which isolation is not possible, perhaps due to overcrowding, perhaps when more than one succumb to the disease. ie. what does one do when a valued member(s) of the community, just because of the contracted contagious disease, becomes a "preditor"?

What is isolation in marginal health care situations? What sort of isolation is possible when there are several people with contagious diseases?

In the numerous histories of Europe 1220-1900 you will inevitably come across a chapter on the plagues, not just the Black, but dozens of types of diseases that ran rampant. At that time, in towns and cities, too often the response was to cordon off the entire afflicted area, dooming virtually all within the boundaries. If we take this solution into y2k scenarios, especially for those in rural settings, this could easily be a prescription for all present to die of the disease. Clearly not an option I want to follow. Once again, what CP only deals with the easy way? Not a good one in my estimation. We all need to be talking a bit more about plague and our response to them. Y2k CP's aren't just about physical stuff, they must incorporate emotional responses also.

One last bit on preditors. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. A person prepared is much less likely to be a preditor.

fwiw. A study came out in Dec97, Boston Univ perhaps? In this, the question was asked, what would you do if you knew y2k was going to be bad. 95% said they would do nothing. About 2% said they would become active in the community. About 2% indicated they would become preditor pirates. The last 1% indicated that they would party till they dropped.

-- Mitchell Barnes (spanda@inreach.com), March 10, 1999.

Mitchell, thanks for bringing all this up. It's not pleasant, but thinking through it ahead of time is sure better than it landing on the doorstep as a fatal surprise.

I agree that, in the cycle of civilizations, ours has come to the point where most are at a pinnacle of comfort, convenience, and ease, and will not like "going backwards" from this cushy soft state of glide living.

I can easily see many door-bashers furious at any pricklings of want.

Quick, relatively painless death seems kinder than branding/maiming/amputating. However, there's this "Thou shalt not kill" which becomes a thorny admonition to wrestle with.

The most morally/ethically clear imperative is to WARN AS MANY HUMANS AS POSSIBLE BEFOREHAND. It is up to each one to individually prepare. There has to be responsibility, accountability! And yes, it is possible to warn with leaflets anonymously.

What to do if the weeples refuse to listen or act on their own behalf? Then I believe you have no obligation to be their brother's keeper after the fact. God did give us intelligence and does mean for us to use it, and has so constructed this world to hasten the descended soul's evolution.

Perhaps you should get many large bold clear signs made and laminated ahead of time: WARNING: Any and All Tresspassers Will Be Shot With No Quarter.

There is a fairness mandate to warn.

About isolation: In the Hospital we had many isolation cases coming in. There were rules of protection that were not followed. There was overcrowding, lack of time and personnel and tools, equipment. Patients were admitted to inappropriate floors and completely inappropriate rooms. In any emergency, these problems will be exacerbated. The true stories we could tell! We quit because it simply was not safe. This was a large prestigious university hospital with a good PR machine that paints a totally false picture.

The truth is, when someone is sick with a communicable disease, it is difficult to take care properly; it takes alertness, time, patience, hot water, constant laundry and bleach, and an inexhaustible supply of gloves and other skin/clothes barriers, in addition to whatever medications and therapies are being applied. All garbage is contaminated and biohazardous. It is exhausting in the BEST of circumstances!

What I would like to see discussed is, at what point do people think trying to survive is not worth it? My threshhold tolerance for putting up with indignity is low. Those on this Forum probably have a strong drive for survival and have a high tolerance. Mitchell, how far and much are you willing to endure?

xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx x

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), March 10, 1999.

From my perspective, the concept that's been missing in this discussion is community.

We've been comparing apples and oranges by saying, "Thou shalt not kill", which is a communal rule and, "I will do this", which is an individual response to a situation.

I've said it here before, Nature has a single, unqualified Prime Directive; SURVIVE!! There is no moral distinction between taking the life of a predator that happens to be a cougar and taking the life of a predator that happens to be a human. Either is justified in order to survive, according to Natural Law that is apparent in Creation.

If the situation at issue is a one-on-one situation, then you will have to justify your actions to no one but yourself. I suspect, however, that no one is going to be very successful at surviving alone.

If the concept of community is added to the discussion, it becomes clear that whatever action is decided on in whatever circumstances are considered is the responsibility of the community at large and not the individual. To be branded on the cheek by a community would likely have very different results in the culprit's mind than to suffer such at the hands of an individual.

It's not "Fairy Dust" that Diane has been spreading around here. It's essential baggage for survival as humanity versus individual survival as human animals.

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), March 10, 1999.

Agree with Hardliner, though community is a slippery concept that varies wildly given the worldview of the user and, even harder, is dynamically different by history, culture, location, etc. But who ever said life is easy? One size will not fit all, post Y2K.

Ironically, the worse Y2K is, the more dependent we will be long-term on our relationships with the others we see face-to-face every day.

No one has all the needed skills, wisdom, strength or, yes, ammunition, to survive for 10 years if Y2K = 10 unless they do indeed intend to live truly alone in the hills as a hermit. This is a legitimate choice but not one that most on this forum (or this thread) have owned up to as their own.

I have said this elsewhere, so forgive the repetition. You may open the door to a stranger who becomes a key ally; shut it to a family member; open it again to a DGI neighbor; close it yet once more to the GI who is a black hole .... and so it goes. Take that in the large and you'll find odd alliances and difficulties accruing among everyone in your own community.

The key to surviving life pre-Y2K has been preparation and a sense of humor, whether light or dark. The key to surviving and flourishing post-Y2K will be extraordinary flexibility and willingness to embrace "strangeness" (with many conventional signposts down) WITHOUT descending to bestiality.

We can do it and we must do it .... and we must do it together, starting locally. If you have to kill, Mitchell, okay, but weep afterwards. Remain a true man above all else.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), March 10, 1999.

Leska, thanks for your response.

I appreciate your take on the "Thou shalt not kill" admoniton. Twofold, the first involves notifying one's larger community to prepare for y2k, and the second is the classic WARNING: Any and All Tresspassers Will Be Shot With No Quarter.

I can live with both of those. I've been active both high and low profile since Aug97 here in this community and am posting onto the local post office and grocery story bulletin boards a quick y2k overview and an easy to follow and remember long term prep list.

The WARNING sign is a very good idea, thanks. People up here are used to seeing signage, and depending on what it says and who has posted it, sometimes the signs work!

>What to do if the weeples refuse to listen or act on their own behalf?

As you say, God helps those who help themselves.

Leska, you are just verifying with your input my concern re lack of working modern medical facilities when considering contagious diseases. And your next paragraph underlines my concern about post y2k epidemics and our ability to effectively deal with either the disease in the ill, or the ill themselves. By this I'm referring to the very real fact that in small communities, especially after disaster, it can be valid to say that there are no "extras" - everyone is necessary. Yet, for example with the hemmoragic type virus, such as Ebola or Warburg, just touching the sick is deadly because the skin is oozing contaminated and contagious blood and seriums. So perhaps we won't have to deal with that, but certainly there are several common diseases, opportunistic in times of stress, which are skin, aerosol, & fluid transmissable.

http://www.nbc-med.org/FMs/medman/toc.htm - for those who want to take a look at infectious diseases

How do we deal with that type of ill people? All of us will be under stress and the last thing we will want to do is to expose ourselves to plague of any sort. And then as you point out there is the biohazard garbage.

Leska asks: What I would like to see discussed is, at what point do people think trying to survive is not worth it? My threshhold tolerance for putting up with indignity is low. Those on this Forum probably have a strong drive for survival and have a high tolerance. Mitchell, how far and much are you willing to endure?

Interesting. This has come up only a couple of times that I'm aware of. Once in a private email group about a year ago - there were no takers for the discussion. And on comp.software.year-2000 the question was raised in that a guy just out and out stated that he saw no reason to keep on living if "that" was what the quality of life was going to be about.

One reason that I'm attempting to create a post y2k infrastructure now is so I can live my life in some degree of comfort. There is a difference between baking bread in a woodstove oven and baking bread in the warm ashes of the fire. Windmill fed gravity tanks for water are better than a two mile walk up a 1500 foot rise carrying water in buckets several times a day from a remote spring.

I fully expect some y2k spinoff to kill me, and I'm working with full intent at preventing any y2k spinoff from killing me. Included in these preparations are the psychological prep I can use to deal with famine and plague. Neither one of these areas have been explored in depth, yet without the psychological preparation it could well mean that if half of one's village is wiped out in the course of two weeks by flu and pneumonia one might opt to suicide. That suicide I would term as one of the y2k spinoff Gotcha's.

Over and above all that stuff I doubt I would want to endure multiple fractures, peritonitas, crushed limbs, burns, or very painful illness obviously ending only in death, but one never knows.

I believe that you have hit upon one of the very important human aspects of well being, dignity. If one's feeling of dignity is due to external factors, one's reaction to a bad y2k hit and subsequent post y2k world will be considerably different than one whose dignity comes from the inside. Either way, when one's dignity is compromised for a duration of time, whether it is the inability to flip a light switch, drive a fast car, or a terminal illness, it comes down to, not just a feeling of control, but actual control over one's own life.

I do know I have too much curiosity about what is going to happen to be more than mildly put off by most probable infrastructure collapses or even knee jerk govt responses. Only because of where I live, I'm not too concerned about preditors. But I am concerned about famine and plague and will have to wait and see how I will respond if/when caught up beneath those hooves.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hardliner.

> From my perspective, the concept that's been missing in this discussion is community.

Perhaps it hasn't come thru on this thread, or perhaps even all my postings on the forum, but I've been involved in the community aspect of y2k.

>I've said it here before, Nature has a single, unqualified Prime Directive; SURVIVE!! There is no moral distinction between taking the life of a predator that happens to be a cougar and taking the life of a predator that happens to be a human. Either is justified in order to survive, according to Natural Law that is apparent in Creation.

Perhaps, I'm not a good philosopher. But to an individual's personal psychology there is a world of difference between the cougar and the human. And the one thing that might enable the person to deal with both types of preditors is a dialog just like we are having now. A sort of in depth airing out of possibilities, their ramifications, and ultimately justifications in the act of taking another human being's life. My thinking says that one will function with greater groundedness and ease if the thorny issues of psychology are dealt with, or at least noticed within one's own breast. >I suspect, however, that no one is going to be very successful at surviving alone.

>If the concept of community is added to the discussion, it becomes clear that whatever action is decided on in whatever circumstances are considered is the responsibility of the community at large and not the individual. To be branded on the cheek by a community would likely have very different results in the culprit's mind than to suffer such at the hands of an individual.

This is a very good point. I must say that was the context I was talking about, certainly this branding would be a type of community reaction to predation.

I brought up to a freshly converted DGI, (thank you PG&E), the idea of community you are referring to Hardliner. In his particular context I was talking about communal kitchens and gardens, and group protection. While there are several of us who talk fringely about this area, this man hasn't been in circle. He was a bit taken aback and also relieved that someone else shared some of his concerns and had talked about them.

Big Dog, I've long been at ease knowing I belong to the top preditor group on the planet.

Thanks to all contributors on this interesting thread!

-- Mitchell Barnes (spanda@inreach.com), March 10, 1999.

I see where there has been something lost in the translation. Somebody used the quote "Thou shalt not kill". There's a lot of difference from the original version of this Commandment and the King James translation.

The original language reads "Thou shalt not do murder". Puts defense of self, family and society in a different light.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), March 10, 1999.

In the context of a community-type survival situation the community building should have been started long before now. It takes people working and communicating together in a collective way. You have to set up perimeters, and a hierarchy within the community. Who will be the sheriff, the baker and the candlestick maker? Perhaps after the dust settles, and the dead bodies taken care of, people will have to come together and set up perimeters. It would be an interesting time and scene because those that do survive will be the true survivalist. None of us have experienced anything like what we are talking about today, and I can only go on what I think I can accomplish and what my level of defense will be. Morally can I shoot someone who is going to harm me and my family? Yes I can. Do I want to do it? No. But I have been through the self-defense training and my attacker does not care about my life nor that of my family. As for my neighbors, I cannot sustain them, I am doing well to take care of my own. I have to think about the next day. Morally is that right? In my eyes it is because I cannot be everything to everyone. No one will be feeling good about their situation regardless of how much food, water and self-defense you have. I would imagine we'll all be depressed and perhaps loathing the fact that we are still alive. But if I survive, it won't be because I deserve it over someone else, it's because I was prepared and made it through adversity.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), March 10, 1999.

Leska:

You wrote: "Quick, relatively painless death seems kinder than branding/maiming/amputating. However, there's this "Thou shalt not kill" which becomes a thorny admonition to wrestle with."

You might want to research that particular commandment. My concordance shows the word "kill" is more accurately rendered "murder". Otherwise, how can one reconcile God's instructions to the Israelites to kill the Caananites and occupy their lands, for example? Self-defense is not murder - see Deuteronomy.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 10, 1999.

Suprised !! Only ONE person had the beginning of the solution as to how to handle post Y2K. However, as I have been working on this disaster scenario for 18 years (have premonitions AND haven't been wrong in fifty Years !!! ) and not a few sleepless nights, I do have most of it worked out. About eight years ago , I made up the signs , to be posted a couple of miles away, on all roads leading to what will be a self sustaining mountain top community ( Farm land; tractors AND plows; Dairy herd AND VET; person who has chickens YEAR ROUND; acres of uncultivated farm land and, it is defenseable. DGIs; neighbors ?? Same as the signs say; "IF you don't work, YOU DON'T EAT !!". You will need much more than family, and I plan to use everyone so that all feel that they are contributing and have earned their " daily bread ". Eagle ... PS For thetough, you disarm them before they are allowed in and the posted sign says " You MUST stay a minimun of TWO years ".

-- Harold Walker (e999eagle@freewwweb.com), March 10, 1999.

You guys are starting to lose it here! Beam me up!

-- Scotty (BLehman202@aol.com), March 10, 1999.

Scotty, be rest assured I haven't lost it. Mr. Walker: I don't believe in signs, because I like to surprise them.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), March 10, 1999.

Re: "Thou shalt not kill/murder":

This topic has been tearing at my innards for months now. How can I answer the question, "Am I capable of taking a life?", without experiencing a 'do or die' situation? The answer is, I can't possibly know my response until the situation presents itself.

I need to go back & re-read some of the Mahatma's writings on this subject. I believe he stated that Ahimsa (non-violence in thought, word, or deed) would not be violated by killing if it were performed in self-defense AND with detachment. How this works out in relation to the Law of Karma I do not know. Gotta go deeper!

Thanks to all for addressing another brain-busting, heart-wrenching issue.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@pop.shentel.net), March 11, 1999.

Harold Walker brings in some new thoughts. A few questions arise. Since the working farm you describe, while defenseable, still has a lot of infrastructure to protect, it would seem that during the initial phases of y2k you might have problems. Civil Disorder is usually the top concern on the list, but in my list Civil Disorder ranks further down.

Having been ranch and farm raised I know the amount of physical labor involved and yes, ideally it takes more than just family members, especially in a y2k situation where there will be a lot of untrained labor with everyone under considerable stress. Have you given thought to productivity ramp-up curves over time, and to injury ramp-down curves over time? If you have a farm large enough to warrent the additional labor then, you must need it now, I assume. Could you describe your program of recruiting for your small village/hamlet? Would you please describe your ideas on training non-farm folk to be productive farm workers? Do you have a program in place for the acquisition of boots and clothing appropriate to farm labor, or do you expect those who join to already have this gear? Do you expect most of those who will be living at your village to join prior to y2k, during the 3-6 month chaos period, or later than that - and does your minimum timeframe of two years hold for each of those periods? During turbulent times how are you going to keep people from just walking away?

On the top of my y2k concerns list are Famine and Plague. If you have enough food stashed you can avoid famine. Do you have an optimum number of people you are planning for? How does this affect the farm's stashed food and fuel supply? Avoiding famine, as long as you have sanitary hygene and water, helps you avoid the plague. But plagues come from diverse vectors. Perimeter patrol might keep out predators, but it will not probably be able to keep out many of the epidemic diseases. What are your preparations to deal with the probability of in-village plague illnesses and deaths? Will you tell us about your quaranteen set-up? Are you planning to have any sort of "hospital" facilities? Are you recruiting EMT or medical practicioners or dentists (I know a good vet can deal with some of the human traumas)? Would you talk a bit about the prep involved in dealing with bereaving family members and burial? Are you going to have anyone on site who knows enough about infectious diseases to be able to guide people as to whether or not the ill or dead are contagious and the method of contagion?

What is your plan for dealing with people who make it to your farm who are two or more weeks into famine? Most likely they are not going to be able to work for a period for their food. Most likely some will be plague carriers or ill? Have you given thought, and could you share with us, a humane method of dealing with and assessing incoming famine and plague victims, without unnecessary exposure to your perimeter patrol?

Civil Unrest and Preditors. I am assuming civil unrest to begin ramping up later this year. I am assuming that that ramp up will be pale in comparison to the probable magnitude of the civil unrest outbreak between the New Year and April 1st. Have you created defensive positions to guard roads and paths? Do you plan on blocking roads? Do you plan to have patrols? Are you assuring that your patrol members have necessary weapon training for effectiveness? If you plan on taking on people during this chaotic timeframe what are your thoughts on a workable ratio of longtime members to newbies in order that your skilled people do not become too diluted? How are you planning to deal with non-violent predators, ie. those who want a handout, but who do not want to work, and, who will not just "go away". How do you plan to deal with violent preditors? Are you planning to, or do you have current outreach into your local EMTs, police, HP, or Fire Departments? Are you planning to use radios for communication? Many are predicting a relatively rapid die-off with the survivors forming bands beginning sometime post heavy chaos. Have you a plan on dealing with survival bands and if so, how many years out are you planning for the need of patrols?

How many years are you planning for in terms of fuel, supplies, food, medical supplies, ammo. Are you getting, or have you the gear necessary to farm "by hand"? What are your cooking methods, and are they sustainable for the long run in feeding the numbers which you see probable as your village population?

Social & Psychological Problems within the Village. How are you planning to deal with scared people, angry people, people in deep shock, people who are coming down from the variety of Dr. prescription drugs? How are you planning to deal with a husband who just lost his wife to birthing problems? What support are you considering for the family survivors when a death occurs with a loved one? What thoughts have you on dealing with angry mates when external to marriage hanky panky happens? How are you planning to deal with bunking of the different sexes? How are you going to deal with couples who fall in love and wish to be married. How are you going to deal with homosexual matings of either sex - when people first arrive, and later if homosexual relations, casual or not, arise between adults, and finally if there are children who are homosexual in orientation and manifest this during their teen and early adult years after growing up on the farm or even new arrivals? How are you going to deal with couples of mixed race? Will you allow people of another race besides yours to join your farm? What will be your policy about religion? What will be your policy on alcohol and marijuana use? How are you going to deal with the need for quality "alone time" and "spiritual needs"? Are you planning backup training against the eventuality of losing key people, & in the process, experiencing group knowledgebase & experience erosion?

Social Organization. Do you have an organization in mind which will provide structure for interpersonal interactions involving the group as a whole, ie. a type of government? If you are the landowner, what will be your reaction to a group decision that runs counter to your wants and desires? If you will not let this happen, what do you suppose are the maximum number of people you will be able to keep on farm and still have all under your control?

Anyway, just some morning thoughts, hope you can answer some of these questions Mr. Walker!

-- Mitchell Barnes (spanda@inreach.com), March 11, 1999.

a:

Wow! I didn't expect any of this from my questions to you. I should be more careful what I post. It doesn't help that I'm spending more time focusing upon preparations and yet neglecting the message boards. I'm running out of time to spend on the Internet. I thought the more secure I became in Y2K preparations, the more free time I would have for cyberspace, but I'm not on the level of many regular posters here and continually realize the little I have accomplished. Y2K won't be a problem for me, but I have never before prepared for a Great Depression, so it's up to God to get me through this.

A turning point for me last year was when I was discussing the potential Y2K problem with my grandmother, who lived through the Great Depression. When I mentioned that the American economy could entirely collapse with bank failures, she responded by saying that we'll all go down together. I said, "NO!" which surprised her.

I am NOT going down with the those who are not prepared. I am determined to survive and help those who need it. I live in this wonderful country filled with many blessings yet perceive some ominous disasters on the horizon which will forever change us.

I'm losing patience with the sheeple who ridicule me, yet I'm such a stubborn person that I won't give up on my family. Even though they tune me out, I'll wait a day or so and then later bring up another point. I have trouble dealing with my brother's smirks. Zog said smirks are the worst.

Warning satiated people during times of prosperity is very difficult. If they have experienced previous hardships and woes, they can clearly comprehend the probabilities of future disasters. War veterans GI, but those who have never truly suffered are harder to reach. Then there are all those little innocent children!

-- dinosaur (dinosaur@williams-net.com), March 12, 1999.

Isn't this how God is with us, waiting for us to change? We're impatient with others because we have not met the real challenge. Far greater warriors have met far greater adversity than we will ever know. It will be difficult for thousands to skate through a 2 or 3 on a scale of 10.

-- nun2soon (nun2soon@nun2soon.com), March 13, 1999.