I think I might be buying a gun..

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In Australia, firearms are restricted. However, they are *not* illegal. If you belong to a shooting club, you can own one. You have to store the weapon and the ammo in separate locked boxes, and you can't transport them together, but it's legal to own them.

I think I might join such a club, simply so that I may have a weapon if the shit gets bad in 297 days. Not that being a member of such a club would be a problem; no point in owning a weapon if you don't know how to use it accurately.

If things get bad in Australia, having a gun will give me a major advantage, too. In the US, every thug in the country has a firearm; here, they're harder to get. 99% of people don't own them. Meaning that if I made mine visible to a thug, they might decide that there's easier pickings elsewhere.

Anyway -and bearing in mind that automatic weapons are TOTALLY illegal down here, so my main choices are restricted to pistols, rifles, and shotguns- what should I get? Advice? Opinions? Flames?

--Leo

-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), March 08, 1999

Answers

12 gauge shotgun

Enfield no. 4 (bought mine for $75 and it shoots wonderfully)

.38 revolver

-- d (d@usedtobedgi.old), March 08, 1999.


12 gauge shotgun with maximum capacity magazine, 00 buckshot. Good defense gun out to 50 yards. Easy to learn to shoot. Point and shoot is easier than aim and shoot. Last type of weapon they will take, due to it's use as a hunting weapon. Learn to shoot it in all types of situations, light/dark, behind a wall/running, etc... Good luck.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), March 08, 1999.

You should get absolutely nothing what so ever until you are cured of the romatnic notion "... that if I made mine visible to a thug, they might decide that there's easier pickings elsewhere..."

They may. Then again you may be only furnishing the thug with a weapon to use on the next victim.

Sporting uses for a gun are good and well. But a gun for the purpose of pointing it a someone else is an entirely different matter. Grave (in both senses of the word) concers must be decided before the pithy details are addressed.

--Greybear, who appologizes for being blunt.

- Got Reality?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), March 08, 1999.


The Ruger Mini 30, Russian SKS, Mossberg 12 guage are good defense weapons. The Ruger and SKS take the same caliber - 7.62 x 39. We have a Mossberg that has an interchangeable barrel. Purchase a fire arm where the ammo is readily available and cheap.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), March 09, 1999.

Leo,

1. join the local club and go through their basic firearms course.

2. see if some of the other members will allow you to try their firearms - the idea is to find something with which you are comfortable and have confidence in your ability to hit the target. When you do, get one of those (whatever).

3. PRACTICE REGULARLY.

4. while doing all of the above, read Massad Ayoob's IN THE GRAVEST EXTREME. Then sit down and work through whether or not you could deal with spending the rest of your life knowing you are directly, PERSONALLY, responsible for someone's death. (see GB's advice above).

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), March 09, 1999.



Leo,

Greybear is correct. I have been shooting guns in many different situations for over 40 years, and I give the same advice to anyone that says that they have to get a gun for self defense, but don't really want to, and so on. I tell them, no matter how proficient you get at shooting at paper targets, clay pigeons, or like that, if you can't point your gun at a human target and shoot with no other thought than hitting the bullseye, IOW killing that human, then don't get a gun. Find another way to defend yourself or your home.

If you can't use your self defense gun against a "bad guy," all you will do is give him a firearm with which to kill you and anyone else he wants.

LP

-- LP (soldog@hotmail.com), March 09, 1999.


Greybear and Arlin are giving you the best advice, Leo. Especially the part about "can you handle the responsibility".

After you educate yourself on the responsibilities than proceed. Can you rent firearms at your club? If so rent a few, try them out, than purchase calibers you are comfortable with.

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@aol.com), March 09, 1999.


Leo, You Drongo,what you do is join the club and do the shooting. While you're at it let it be known you have no love for the blue heelers. After a bit one of the old diggers will take you to his sump oil garden and present you with a Lithgow #4 Enfield or better yet a L1A1. At the least you will find who knows who. That way you will be connected.If you're lucky you might even get an Owen. Good luck mate, see you at the frog and toad.

-- nine (nine_fingers@hotmail.com), March 09, 1999.

Now, I finally understand what is must be like for someone else to hear two Texans speaking their native language. Most eductional.

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), March 09, 1999.

Bardou- semis/autos aren't available here. AFAIK, the best you can get is bolt-action. No big deal; I don't think I'll be stocking up on 30,000 rounds of ammo, so single-shot is good enough for me anyway.

Greybear- Makes sense. But I've already decided that yes, I think I would be prepared to pull the trigger if I absolutely had to. I doubt I'd be able to swing an axe into someone's head, or use a bayonet or anything else as personal as that, but if there's some distance between me and the other guy, a couple of metres or more..yes. I could do that. If I wasn't sure of that, I wouldn't have even thought about arming myself.

Arlin, Bill- thanks. Yes, I plan to become as fluent with the gun as I can. Hopefully I won't have to use it, but if I do..then it'll be life or death, and training will count. On the other hand, with all the Amazon shorts I'm buying and the silver rounds I'm going to get (my actual survival supplies will probably just be skimmed off the top of the sum of my customers' stuff), I won't have unlimited money to spend on practise ammo.

Speaking of ammo, how much should I buy? I think I'll get a shotgun, possibly a cheap rifle and maybe a cheap handgun (something I can carry on my person). I personally expect the trouble to last for 12-18 months, followed by a decade of economic chaos a'la the 1930s. Longer, if war breaks out. I don't personally expect an immense amount of trouble to happen to me beyond the first 21-28 days (when I may be involved getting customers out of the fire that Sydney could well become.) After that, it'll just be a matter of protecting a remote, almost-inaccessible area (the nearest `large' town has 22,000 people and is 90 km away; the nearest highway passes 40 km from the place, although it DOES back onto a large State Forest) from whatever intruders might happen to come along...although on the other hand, decent ammo requires some infrastructure to create and would be impossible to produce after y2k.

--Leo

-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), March 09, 1999.



Greybear, Let me translate

Drongo(Dull witted lout) a term of endearment

Blue heelers(COPS) not a term of endearment

Old Digger(grey beard) term of respect

sump oil garden(Where the goodies are) sump oil=crank case oil. Standard joke in OZ, Why does the digger put sump oil on his garden? To keep his guns from rusting!

Lithgow #4 Enfield(Your Basic .303 Enfield)very slick boltgun usually with a stunning OZ red wood stock.

L1A1(OZ inch pattern FAL) The FALO heavy bbl version is used as a sentry gun.

Owen(OZ 9mm SMG) Works fine lasts a long time.

See you at the frog and toad(OZ rhyming slang for see you on the fucking road).

Leo, in reality with the 2 shot Crimping restrictions in place you would be better off with a good .303 with a scope on it and a single shot shotgun. And on the off chance you can get the permit get a .22 rifle. You have a snowballs chance in hell of getting a permit for a handgun. I'm sorry Pauline H. didn't get elected. And I'm American for the record, I just have a few mates in the Brisbane area.

-- nine (nine_fingers@hotmail.com), March 09, 1999.


CAUTION - this post contains graphic material not suitable for newbies to the subject.

OK, Leo. It seems you may have thought through this some. I would like to add though, that I'm a little concerned about you phrase "I think". You better KNOW.

Shooting people is NOT any different that your axe, knife or bludgeon images. A gun is not a clean thing. When used is creates a lot of blood splatered everywhere, possibly intestines protruding, and ocassionally brain matter on the walls, gore aplenty. Then there is the horribly complicated subject of coup de grais. This will not be discussed by me in public. The distance from the person shot is only a tactical consideration not a strategic one.

I am being purposely gross here. (But not unrealistic) I hope it is to you benifit. I have often seen the results of gunshot wounds and suffered two minor ones myself. There are no pretty pictures. It is NOT clean. Either physicall or emotionally. TeeVee has put a lot of images in our minds that are ablsolutely false and horribly misleading.

As to cheap guns. I hope you are using the word loosely. Consider: If you think you may need a tool to save you life - do you want a cheap tool. Economical is a different issue. Most of your Enfields are among some of the finest rifles made. Not pretty, but some of the best in quality and reliability. They represent some of the best investments that can be had in the market today in bolt action rifles.

If I remember the articles I've read, you are also banned from owning slide action shotguns. If this is the case you are left with little choice but to find a good double.

Handguns are just TOO large of a subject for a public forum. They will have long ago decide exactly how many demons can sit on the head of a pin before any agreement will even get close on handguns. You can put three "gunnies" together and get five opinions on handguns. You need to check around. I think those may be severly restricted for you if at all possible to obtian.

There are many sites on the net that discuss guns ad naseum. Lots of noise, not much signal. Ther are also many good books on the subject, too many in fact. You can not spend you money any better that to buy anything by Jeff Cooper. There is no better. He may be one of the last of the warrior poets among us. Masad Ayoob will give you a lot of bery practical advice. They are Must reads, but not the keepers that Mr. Coopers books are. (sorry Mas)

If you find out that you can in fact obtain a handgun I would be happy to communicate to you privately via email to convey my opinions.

-- Greybear

- Got Hoppes?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), March 09, 1999.


nine,

Thanks for the trans. It was the upside down word I didn't grok.

The gun stuff I'm somewhat familar with, having been a shooting instruction off and on for about 30 yrs now.

Hope we get a chance to set over a cup some day and bash ideas on the L1A1.

But not here. We're out pretty near the line now. I'm pretty sure that I'll hear about my post above to Leo, so be it.

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), March 09, 1999.


Looters WILL pass up homes and businesses with armed owners protecting them, please read some past posts on L.A. riots and hurricanes. Guns don't have to be fired in order to be effective. You do have to have the resolve to use them, if the situation is life threatening (they are aiming or shooting a gun at you, coming at you with a knife, etc..) Unless the person is on drugs and out of their mind, a 12 gauge shotgun pointed in their direction will make them think twice about looting your home. Looters are cowards, whom take advatage of bad situations. Burglers are the same, in that, they look for easy targets. That is why they skip most homes with large dogs, alarm systems, well lit homes, etc.... Don't be an easy target!

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), March 09, 1999.

Don't shoot yourself or somebody else, kid.

-- careful (just@innocent.bystander), March 09, 1999.


If the FBI has their way, we will be going the way of Australia and lots of other "gun-ban" countries. I have been trying to purchase a handgun for about a month now. This NICS system is for the birds. They have OBVIOUSLY mixed my personal info with some other more nefarious dog...

Anyway, if you want a firearm, you better get it now, as later may be too late...

Good luck Leo... .303 has always been a favorite of mine... I have 3.

The Dog

-- dog (desertdog@sand.com), March 09, 1999.


I too recently have been debating the gun issue. It's an excruciating internal conflict for me which appears to have as many pros as cons, i.e. the child safety issue since I have 3 kids; morality issue, would I be able to shoot to kill? The risks issue, would this gun turn against me/us? etc etc etc.

This weekend for the first time we've discussed this issue seriously my husband and I. We went as far as agreeing that we should look into at least taking a good course in target practice. Would make an interesting hobby for the both of us anyway.

Karen from y2kwomen.com has good advice and insights on this subject at 10. What about having guns? for those interested.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), March 09, 1999.


My wife, 10-year-old son, & I are currently taking training from an NRA certified instructor. After that is done we will be buying a pistol and a shotgun. I don't want to have to kill anyone but I will do it without thinking twice if I feel myself, family, or home are in serious danger. If some one threatens me and wants my food, I'll pull my gun and toss him a can of beans, then order him off my property. I wouldn't just kill him for asking or demanding food.

-- rick (I'set@home.house), March 09, 1999.

Just a note about firearms in Australia... I've heard estimates that at most 1 in 4 owners, and as few as 1 in 10, turned them in when the ban went into effect a couple of years back. I wouldn't count on 99% of the people not having them; I'd figure that many still do and are keeping quiet.

I think that handguns are completely banned, meaning if you buy one it'll be from the black market. If primary use is to be self defense, go with a shotgun. Pumps and semi-autos are no-no's, so it'll have to be a side-by-side or over/under. Try before you buy...

Why do Aussies oil their gardens?

So their guns don't rust.

-- Melinda Gierisch (gieriscm@hotmail.com), March 09, 1999.


Good point, Greybear, but let's don't overstate the case...fact is, the majority (over 90%) of self-defense uses of a gun end without a shot being fired. Yeah, you better be ready to use it if you have to...but I tend to think that what seems unthinkable in the light of day gets a lot easier when you're faced with a real threat.

-- Shimrod (shimrod@lycosmail.com), March 14, 1999.

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