OK, I've put together all of the issues raised on the scoring system thread, and there are some excellent suggestions! Great input! Perhaps we can start voting on these ideas to decide if we want to proceed and if we agree to do anything, then figure out the how...

There's really two main categories: Leaderboard scoring--what counts and what doesn't and then the wonderful clone problem. If I'm not mistaken, for each item the first 11 AYEs or NAYs is what we'll do.

Leaderboard Issues: Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%): YES Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: YES Allow scores from games in current betas: NO Allow scores from games recorded before ROM changes: NO Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or only top X: NO Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates/sound off: NO

Clone Issues: In general, clones will not count (with exceptions below): YES Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g. Trog): YES Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g. Choplifter): YES Allow clones in multi-game variations (e.g. bowlrama): YES Allow clones--harder or sped-up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms. Pac Turbo): NO Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper Olympic): NO

-- PatL (laffaye@ibm.net), March 08, 1999

Answers

Leaderboard Issues: Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%): YES Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: YES Allow scores from games in current betas: YES Allow scores from games recorded before ROM changes: NO Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or only top X: NO Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates/sound off: NO

Clone Issues: In general, clones will not count (with exceptions below): YES Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g. Trog): YES Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g. Choplifter): YES Allow clones in multi-game variations (e.g. bowlrama): YES Allow clones--harder or sped-up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms. Pac Turbo): NO Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper Olympic): NO

-- Dith (dith@europress.co.uk), March 09, 1999.

Sound off!? Did I miss something?

1. Not all the games have sound emulated yet! 2. On older, but not yet obsolete, systems like mine hitting 100% framerate is impossible with sound using the old frameskip system. I think Discs of Tron hovered around 85-90% with frameskip 3, when it was only displaying 7.5 frames per second (Only runs 30 fps at full, most arcade games run 60fps at full).

As for the rest of it:

Leaderboard Issues: Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%): YES Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: YES Allow scores from games in current betas: YES Allow scores from games recorded before ROM changes: YES Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or only top X: NO Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates: NO

SOUND OFF: YES

Clone Issues: In general, clones will not count (with exceptions below): YES Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g. Trog): YES Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g. Choplifter): YES Allow clones in multi-game variations (e.g. bowlrama): YES Allow clones--harder or sped-up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms. Pac Turbo): YES Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper Olympic): NO

Aqua

-- Aquatarkus (aquatarkus@digicron.com), March 09, 1999.

My votes are...

Leaderboard Issues: Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%): YES Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: YES Allow scores from games in current betas: NO Allow scores from games recorded before ROM changes: NO Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or only top X: NO Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates/sound off: NO

Clone Issues: In general, clones will not count (with exceptions below): YES Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g. Trog): YES Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g. Choplifter): YES Allow clones in multi-game variations (e.g. bowlrama): YES Allow clones--harder or sped-up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms. Pac Turbo): NO Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper Olympic): NO

-- Octavian (sjh1@sjh1.swinternet.co.uk), March 09, 1999.

I might as well jump on the band wagon. :)

Leaderboard Issues: Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%): "YES" Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: "YES" Allow scores from games in current betas: "NO" Allow scores from games recorded before ROM changes: "NO" Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or only top X: "NO" Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates/sound off: "NO"

*** Although, I ALWAYS play with sound off when playing in dos because my soundcard doesn't have the capability of running mame with sound. In windows, it depends, weather or not it slows down the emulation process. ***

Clone Issues: In general, clones will not count (with exceptions below): "YES" Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g. Trog): "YES" Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g. Choplifter): "YES" (another ex. is Popeye) Allow clones in multi- game variations (e.g. bowlrama): "YES" Allow clones--harder or sped- up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms. Pac Turbo): "YES" Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper Olympic): "NO"

*** I spoke once before about the differences between Ms Pacman and Ms Pacman Turbo. Yes, the pacman moves faster. If the ghosts did too at the same rate, then I would say other then it's 'twice' the speed, the game is still the same. The turbo ver. changes the whole game around in a way that performing the same techniques you would normally do on the original, you can't perform on the turbo ver. consistantly. Also, I almost want to consider Galaga Turbo Fire in the same way, but the majority of the game is still the same with exceptions to the bullets at times going through the enemy making it just as hard as the original. There's just not enough of this ver. to allow it to be considered totally differnet in game play from the original fire ver. ***

Regards, Steve Krogman

-- stephen krogman (skrogman@concentric.net), March 09, 1999.

Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%): YES Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: YES Allow scores from games in current betas: YES (see * below) Allow scores from games recorded before ROM changes: NO Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or only top X: NO Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates/sound off: NO (see ** below)

*So if our favorite game gets added to MAME 0.36 Beta 1, we have to wait until the final version to submit scores? Sometimes a fully working game is added to a beta, and sometimes an incomplete, not properly emulated version is left in the final. I'd say "judge this on a game-by-game basis" but I think we'll be doing enough of that if these changes take effect.)

**Sound off? guh? I know that leaving sound on or off can make a difference in the playback, but turning sound off speeds up the game and lets them play at an acceptable speed in some games! If the recording is affected by sound, just say so in the description. Simple as that)

Clone Issues: In general, clones will not count (with exceptions below): YES Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g. Trog): YES Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g. Choplifter): YES Allow clones in multi-game variations (e.g. bowlrama): YES Allow clones--harder or sped-up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms. Pac Turbo): NO Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper Olympic): NO

-- BBH (lordbbh@aol.com), March 11, 1999.

Leaderboard Issues: Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%): YES Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: YES Allow scores from games in current betas: YES Allow scores from games recorded before ROM changes: NO Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or only top X: YES Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates/sound off: NO Except for the sound issue, I do accept the Sound Off

Clone Issues: In general, clones will not count (with exceptions below): YES Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g. Trog): YES Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g. Choplifter): YES Allow clones in multi-game variations (e.g. bowlrama): YES Allow clones--harder or sped-up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms. Pac Turbo): YES Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper Olympic): NO

-- German Castagnasso (germanc@netverk.com.ar), June 07, 1999.

Sorry, German Castagnasso is, actually German Krol

-- German Krol (germanc@netverk.com.ar), June 07, 1999.

Per the invitation of Pat... I will now cast a vote

Leaderboard Issues: Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%): YES Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: YES Allow scores from games in current betas: YES Allow scores from games recorded before ROM changes: NO Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or only top X: NO Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates/sound off: NO

Clone Issues: In general, clones will not count (with exceptions below): YES Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g. Trog): YES Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g. Choplifter): YES Allow clones in multi-game variations (e.g. bowlrama): YES Allow clones--harder or sped-up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms. Pac Turbo): YES Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper Olympic): NO

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@geocities.com), June 07, 1999.

Now that we know the right Thread to be on, ditto:)

Leaderboard Issues: Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%): YES Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: YES Allow scores from games in current betas: YES Allow scores from games recorded before ROM changes: YES Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or only top X: NO Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates/sound off: NO

*** although i don't think playing with sound off is unethical at any rate. If people need the frame rate to play, then turning sound off is cool, even though it makes a sucky playback. There should be standard of points leeching, no repetative points leeching for more than 5 seconds, or such, so people won't be accidentally acused of points leeching if they can move on after such and such a time.

Clone Issues: In general, clones will not count (with exceptions below): NO Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g. Trog): YES Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g. Choplifter): YES Allow clones in multi-game variations (e.g. bowlrama): YES Allow clones--harder or sped-up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms. Pac Turbo): YES Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper Olympic): YES

**** I think ALL clones should be allowed but a reduced scoreing method should take place on a clone or it's parrent. I think this gives a greater chance of having a more killer score to watch, because more game play will be forced. I also believe clone selection to be allowed or disallowed would be flawed more so than allowing all clones at a reduced scoring rate, even though one clone may be harder than another, they are still the same game/graphics/idea to play, even trogp. An Example Scoring method where clones are reduced in score, is in the "Clone Score" thread.

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), June 08, 1999.

Um, I'm still not sure what all the fuss about the MARP leaderboard is for. I actually *like* the leaderboard the way it is.

Have a look at Zwaxy's experimental percentage based leaderboard. It obviously paints a much different picture than the current leaderboard. Most of you don't realize that some of us have been posting scores into MARP for close to, or over a year now. Since the percentage scoring takes into account *every* score you have ever submitted, the old-timers will suffer a great deal from the days when you would post a weak score on a game that you didn't know well to get the leaderboard points.

Today's MARP has become much more competitive, new players are coming in all the time, bettering some of the early scores that were posted a long time ago. The percentage system gives a distinct edge to NEW players; anyone can come in from scratch, get the number 1 score on 10 or so games, and have a perfect 100% ranking.

The percentage system does not reflect the amount of time and effort many of us have spent submitting scores into the MARP page.

The only possible change that I would be open to is a limitation of clone games. If true clone games (ie, Pac Man vs. Pac Man (Namco)) were set up to cancel each other out, this would be fine with me. Otherwise I feel that everything should stay AS IS.

Just my $.02.

=Angry=

-- Angry (greggg@ix.netcom.com), June 08, 1999.

I think the percentage system being recommended here is not a averaged percentage but an added one, where the top player gets 100 points and the player who gets 80% of the top score gets 80 points. Am i correct here? I don't think anyone would want an averaged percentage where if someone just happens to get a few top scores then their total leader board score is 100, and the runners up are BBH and krog with 99 :)

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), June 08, 1999.

I think Skito/Chad's got it right - people won't go top for having 10 out of 10 1st places. You get 100 points for 1st place, but you get 50 points for 2nd place if you score half as much as 1st place, and only 10 points for 2nd place if you score a tenth of the top score. If you're 11th for the game with a score of half of the highests for that game, you still get the 50 points. It just makes it a little fairer - if I miss 2nd place by a tiny amount, I'll get 99 points with the percentage scheme, whereas I'd only get 3 points with the current scheme.

Chris.

-- Zwaxy (zwaxy@bigfoot.com), June 08, 1999.

The fuss here is simple: there are way too many leaderboard points up for grabs and the lion's share of points go to a few players. There is too big a point disparity between 1st & 2nd place. No points for 4th+, etc. Reread my PRS thread for more... Whenever a new release comes out, everyone races around to see who can play the most games and get most 10 pointers. Also, within a release, an unusually high number of games will be CLONES which gives further advantage to players that have already mastered those games. This approach rewards on QUANTITY which is wrong!! Points should be given out based on the QUALITY of recordings, not how quickly people put up crappy scores.

Unfortunately, it is my belief that the current leaderboard emphasizes quantity and the experimental percentage system would somewhat reward for quality. That is why I came up with a formula to strikes a balance between the two. However, in e-mails with Zwaxy, he did not understand this point and hence it didn't show up in the experimental page. Fine, afterall this is his site. The PRS formula gives points for both quality and quantity, and my earlier tests showed that it didn't shake up the standings at the very top too much. Most of the significant changes occured in the middle the pack. However, if I had to choose between the current leaderboard system and percentage based scoring: Percentage scoring is much more reflective as to what's really going on here.

-- Pat Laffaye (laffaye@ibm.net), June 08, 1999.

Clones are bad.

I think the percentage scoring is needed, because it is a fairer indication of skill at the majority of games than the medal system. I also believe the percentage scoring would be an incentive for people to play "older" MAME entries rather than focusing on the "beta gold rush".

I'd set it up as an additive score, instead of the average score per game like the experimental is now. I don't see the point in punishing people for taking chances - it's embarrassing enough having a score reduced to 5% of the high already, and the leaderboard will become more accurate with time as the leader of each game improves to push the others down.

Aqua

-- Aquatarkus (aquatarkus@digicron.com), June 09, 1999.

Here my votes

Leaderboard Issues: Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%): YES Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: YES Allow scores from games in current betas: NO Allow scores from games recorded before ROM changes: NO Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or only top X: NO Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates/sound off: NO

Clone Issues: In general, clones will not count (with exceptions below): YES Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g. Trog): YES Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g. Choplifter): YES Allow clones in multi-game variations (e.g. bowlrama): YES Allow clones--harder or sped-up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms. Pac Turbo):NO Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper Olympic): NO

Nothing new..... Cicca

-- Cicca (cicca@writeme.com), June 10, 1999.