Read the following, then bear in mind that these same alphabet agencies are point men on the impending y2k debacle.

Read between the lines folks.

Remember, these are just the declassified items - the tip of the icebug... full steam ahead!

"A Brief History of Secret U.S. Government Programs"

The following is a list of this century's most controversial government activities.

1931

Dr. Cornelius Rhoads, under the auspices of the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Investigations, infects human subjects with cancer cells. He later goes on to establish the U.S. Army Biological Warfare facilities in Maryland, Utah, and Panama, and is named to the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission. While there, he begins a series of radiation exposure experiments on American soldiers and civilian hospital patients.

1932

The Tuskegee Syphilis Study begins. 200 black men diagnosed with syphilis are never told of their illness, are denied treatment, and instead are used as human guinea pigs in order to follow the progression and symptoms of the disease. They all subsequently die from syphilis, their families never told that they could have been treated.

1935

The Pellagra Incident. After millions of individuals die from Pellagra over a span of two decades, the U.S. Public Health Service finally acts to stem the disease. The director of the agency admits it had known for at least 20 years that Pellagra is caused by a niacin deficiency but failed to act since most of the deaths occurred within poverty-striken black populations.

1940

Four hundred prisoners in Chicago are infected with Malaria in order to study the effects of new and experimental drugs to combat the disease. Nazi doctors later on trial at Nuremberg cite this American study to defend their own actions during the Holocaust.

1942

Chemical Warfare Services begins mustard gas experiments on approximately 4,000 servicemen. The experiments continue until 1945 and made use of Seventh Day Adventists who chose to become human guinea pigs rather than serve on active duty.

1943

In response to Japan's full-scale germ warfare program, the U.S. begins research on biological weapons at Fort Detrick, MD.

1944

U.S. Navy uses human subjects to test gas masks and clothing. Individuals were locked in a gas chamber and exposed to mustard gas and lewisite.

1945

Project Paperclip is initiated. The U.S. State Department, Army intelligence, and the CIA recruit Nazi scientists and offer them immunity and secret identities in exchange for work on top secret government projects in the United States.

"Program F" is implemented by the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission (AEC). This is the most extensive U.S. study of the health effects of fluoride, which was the key chemical component in atomic bomb production. One of the most toxic chemicals known to man, fluoride, it is found, causes marked adverse effects to the central nervous system but much of the information is squelched in the name of national security because of fear that lawsuits would undermine full-scale production of atomic bombs.

1946

Patients in VA hospitals are used as guinea pigs for medical experiments. In order to allay suspicions, the order is given to change the word "experiments" to "investigations" or "observations" whenever reporting a medical study performed in one of the nation's veteran's hospitals.

1947

Colonel E. E. Kirkpatrick of the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission issues a secret document (Document 07075001, January 8, 1947) stating that the agency will begin administering intravenous doses of radioactive substances to human subjects.

The CIA begins its study of LSD as a potential weapon for use by American intelligence. Human subjects (both civilian and military) are used with and without their knowledge.

1950

Department of Defense begins plans to detonate nuclear weapons in desert areas and monitor downwind residents for medical problems and mortality rates.

In an experiment to determine how susceptible an American city would be to biological attack, the U.S. Navy sprays a cloud of bacteria from ships over San Francisco. Monitoring devices are situated throughout the city in order to test the extent of infection. Many residents become ill with pneumonia-like symptoms.

1951

Department of Defense begins open air tests using disease-producing bacteria and viruses. Tests last through 1969 and there is concern that people in the surrounding areas have been exposed.

1953

U.S. military releases clouds of zinc cadmium sulfide gas over Winnipeg, St. Louis, Minneapolis, Fort Wayne, the Monocacy River Valley in Maryland, and Leesburg, Virginia. Their intent is to determine how efficiently they could disperse chemical agents.

Joint Army-Navy-CIA experiments are conducted in which tens of thousands of people in New York and San Francisco are exposed to the airborne germs Serratia marcescens and Bacillus glogigii.

CIA initiates Project MKULTRA. This is an eleven year research program designed to produce and test drugs and biological agents that would be used for mind control and behavior modification. Six of the subprojects involved testing the agents on unwitting human beings.

1955

The CIA, in an experiment to test its ability to infect human populations with biological agents, releases a bacteria withdrawn from the Army's biological warfare arsenal over Tampa Bay, Fl.

Army Chemical Corps continues LSD research, studying its potential use as a chemical incapacitating agent. More than 1,000 Americans participate in the tests, which continue until 1958.

1956

U.S. military releases mosquitoes infected with Yellow Fever over Savannah, Ga and Avon Park, Fl. Following each test, Army agents posing as public health officials test victims for effects.

1958

LSD is tested on 95 volunteers at the Army's Chemical Warfare Laboratories for its effect on intelligence.

1960

The Army Assistant Chief-of-Staff for Intelligence (ACSI) authorizes field testing of LSD in Europe and the Far East. Testing of the European population is code named Project THIRD CHANCE; testing of the Asian population is code named Project DERBY HAT.

1965

Project CIA and Department of Defense begin Project MKSEARCH, a program to develop a capability to manipulate human behavior through the use of mind-altering drugs.

1965

Prisoners at the Holmesburg State Prison in Philadelphia are subjected to dioxin, the highly toxic chemical component of Agent Orange used in Viet Nam. The men are later studied for development of cancer, which indicates that Agent Orange had been a suspected carcinogen all along.

1966

CIA initiates Project MKOFTEN, a program to test the toxicological effects of certain drugs on humans and animals.

U.S. Army dispenses Bacillus subtilis variant niger throughout the New York City subway system. More than a million civilians are exposed when army scientists drop lightbulbs filled with the bacteria onto ventilation grates.

1967

CIA and Department of Defense implement Project MKNAOMI, successor to MKULTRA and designed to maintain, stockpile and test biological and chemical weapons.

1968

CIA experiments with the possibility of poisoning drinking water by injecting chemicals into the water supply of the FDA in Washington, D.C.

1969

Dr. Robert MacMahan of the Department of Defense requests from congress $10 million to develop, within 5 to 10 years, a synthetic biological agent to which no natural immunity exists.

1970

Funding for the synthetic biological agent is obtained under H.R. 15090. The project, under the supervision of the CIA, is carried out by the Special Operations Division at Fort Detrick, the army's top secret biological weapons facility. Speculation is raised that molecular biology techniques are used to produce AIDS-like retroviruses.

United States intensifies its development of "ethnic weapons" (Military Review, Nov., 1970), designed to selectively target and eliminate specific ethnic groups who are susceptible due to genetic differences and variations in DNA.

1975

The virus section of Fort Detrick's Center for Biological Warfare Research is renamed the Fredrick Cancer Research Facilities and placed under the supervision of the National Cancer Institute (NCI) . It is here that a special virus cancer program is initiated by the U.S. Navy, purportedly to develop cancer-causing viruses. It is also here that retrovirologists isolate a virus to which no immunity exists. It is later named HTLV (Human T-cell Leukemia Virus).

1977

Senate hearings on Health and Scientific Research confirm that 239 populated areas had been contaminated with biological agents between 1949 and 1969. Some of the areas included San Francisco, Washington, D.C., Key West, Panama City, Minneapolis, and St. Louis.

1978

Experimental Hepatitis B vaccine trials, conducted by the CDC, begin in New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco. Ads for research subjects specifically ask for promiscuous homosexual men.

1981

First cases of AIDS are confirmed in homosexual men in New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco, triggering speculation that AIDS may have been introduced via the Hepatitis B vaccine

1985

According to the journal Science (227:173-177), HTLV and VISNA, a fatal sheep virus, are very similar, indicating a close taxonomic and evolutionary relationship.

1986

According to the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences(83:4007-4011), HIV and VISNA are highly similar and share all structural elements, except for a small segment which is nearly identical to HTLV. This leads to speculation that HTLV and VISNA may have been linked to produce a new retrovirus to which no natural immunity exists.

A report to Congress reveals that the U.S. Government's current generation of biological agents includes: modified viruses, naturally occurring toxins, and agents that are altered through genetic engineering to change immunological character and prevent treatment by all existing vaccines.

1987

Department of Defense admits that, despite a treaty banning research and development of biological agents, it continues to operate research facilities at 127 facilities and universities around the nation.

1990

More than 1500 six-month old black and hispanic babies in Los Angeles are given an "experimental" measles vaccine that had never been licensed for use in the United States. CDC later admits that parents were never informed that the vaccine being injected to their children was experimental.

1994

With a technique called "gene tracking," Dr. Garth Nicolson at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, TX discovers that many returning Desert Storm veterans are infected with an altered strain of Mycoplasmaincognitus, a microbe commonly used in the production of biological weapons. Incorporated into its molecular structure is 40 percent of the HIV protein coat, indicating that it had been man-made.

Senator John D. Rockefeller issues a report revealing that for at least 50 years the Department of Defense has used hundreds of thousands of military personnel in human experiments and for intentional exposure to dangerous substances. Materials included mustard and nerve gas, ionizing radiation, psychochemicals, hallucinogens, and drugs used during the Gulf War .

1995

U.S. Government admits that it had offered Japanese war criminals and scientists who had performed human medical experiments salaries and immunity from prosecution in exchange for data on biological warfare research.

Dr. Garth Nicolson, uncovers evidence that the biological agents used during the Gulf War had been manufactured in Houston, TX and Boca Raton, Fl and tested on prisoners in the Texas Department of Corrections.

1996

Department of Defense admits that Desert Storm soldiers were exposed to chemical agents.

1997

Eighty-eight members of Congress sign a letter demanding an investigation into bioweapons use & Gulf War Syndrome.

1998

Y2K looms on the horizon - US Government does nothing... or does it?

1999

Y2K looms on the horizon - US Government does nothing... hmmmm...

2000

Y2K hits - US Government ???????????????????????????????

"Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean that they're not out to get me...:)"

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), March 05, 1999

Answers

And they're just the ones we know about. !!!

-- humptydumpty (no.6@thevillage.com), March 05, 1999.

Uncle Sam WANTS YOU!

For service to our country you will receive, with or without your knowledge, all sorts of uncurable deadly agents, drugs, and bacteria. You will receive a pension if you serve twenty years but you won't live long enough to enjoy it.

(Thanks for the post Andy, had been wondering if you had left us.) :-)

-- Sharon (sking@drought-ridden.com), March 05, 1999.

Did I miss a reference to Ruby Ridge and Waco? How about the many atrocities by the IRS, BATF OSHA and other government agencies?

-- Herb Johnson (HERB87@JUNO.COM), March 05, 1999.

Andy--thanks for posting this; the more people who know about it, the healthier for our democracy. And it was all done in the name of national security. Don't you feel a lot more secure?

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), March 05, 1999.

Well, I trust government as little as anyone, but there are a lot of misrepresentations here. Here are just the ones I am sure about.

It is absolutely untrue that 'all' the Tuskegee subjects died of syphilis. Some did, some lived with disease, and some did just fine.

Fluoride is hardly 'one of the most toxic chemicals known to man'. It's in toothpaste, for God's sake, and in your water. And I'm glad it's there - my kids have hardly any cavities. And as for being the 'key component in bomb production' - gosh, who needs uranium and plutonium? Are you confusing fluoride with uranium tetrafluroride, perhaps?

If you're testing a hepatitis B vaccine, it makes sense to test it on populations at high risk of getting hepatitis B - for example, promiscuous homosexual males. Nothing nefarious here.

And, if you're worried about someone mounting a biological attack on NYC, it might make sense to release a harmless but easily culturable bacterium in the subway system, to see how it spreads. Bacillus subtilis is harmless.

The others, I don't know about, but there's enough misinformation here that this is all highly suspect.

-- Ned (entaylor@cloudnet.com), March 05, 1999.

paraphrasing..

flouride is in toothpaste and water therefore it is not one of the most toxic chemicals known to man.

Well, I dearly wish this reasoning were correct, but it ain't.

-- humptydumpty (no.6@thevillage.com), March 05, 1999.

Ned, I think the point is that many of the governments victims didn't know they were part of any testing. They were victims because they weren't afforded their basic civil rights. That goes directly against the Constitution.

There is way too much 'big brother' in this country these days.

Andy, excellent post.

"Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean that they're not out to get me...:)"

I wish I had your confidence : )

"trust no one".

Mike ==============================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), March 05, 1999.

Funny Ned that you should mention Fluoride as being so innofensive. 2 days ago I heard on the radio of a controversy over a study released about Fluoride in water and toothpaste indicating that it is harmful to our children, as some swallow toothpaste and get overdoses of it. I didn't see the study and didn't listen to the entire radio show, but they mentioned things like black teeth, and neurological damage.

I did a search on fluoride and found these:

First, see the Mil/Fed specs on hydrogen-fluoride < a href="http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/hydrogen-fluoride.htm">htt p://www.thewinds.org/archive/medical/fluoride01-98.html

Then read DID GOVERNMENT APPROVE CITIZENS AS TOXIC WASTE SITES? ARE WE BEING POISONED?

"Extensive studies, ignored with a yawn by those who believe they are being served well by the media and various dental associations, have shown that the consumption of fluoride in drinking water and prescription doses is extremely harmful and deleterious in a number of ways."

"Much of the original proof that fluoride is safe for humans in low doses was generated by A-bomb program scientists, who had been secretly ordered to provide 'evidence useful in litigation' against defense contractors for fluoride injury to citizens. The first lawsuits against the U.S. A-bomb program were not over radiation, but over fluoride damage, the documents show."

And this is a must readShould Natick Fluoridate?
A Report to the Town and the Board of Selectmen Prepared by the Natick Fluoridation Study Committee
13 E. Central Street, Town of Natick, MA October 23, 1997

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), March 05, 1999.

OK, all together now..one two three I'M PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN, WHERE AT LEAST I KNOW I'M FREE....AND I WON'T FORGET THE MEN WHO DIED, WHO GAVE THAT RIGHT TO ME!!!!

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), March 05, 1999.

Chris, you found thewinds.org. Well done. A phenomenal, if not flawless site, that delights in reminding one and all what U.S.gov is capable of.

-- humptydumpty (no.6@thevillage.com), March 05, 1999.

Interesting discussion. Is fluoridation still so controversial?

Remember that table salt is made of sodium and chlorine. Both are poisonous.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), March 05, 1999.

geez Flint, water is oxygen and hydrogen, and it don't burn either. That was pretty lame, even for you.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), March 05, 1999.

Fix ed hotlink to Mil/Fed specs on hydrogen-fluoride

This is also worth to read Fluoride - Dentistry's Boondoggle-- by Joyal Taylor, D.D.S.

And Toothpaste set to carry fluoride poison warning

Y'all should do your research on fluoride. After what I've read, I need to warn my kids on never swallowing it and making sure my water doesn't contain it. I'm sick to think that I gave fluoride pills to my kids when they were in grade school, prescribed by their pediatrician, because our municipal water didn't have it. I'm conforted by the fact that I was very lax in giving it to them and did only sporadicly for a while.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), March 05, 1999.

Ned,

Warning: Keep out of the reach of children under six years of age (like any poison) If you accidentally swallow more than used for brushing, seek professional assistance or contact a Poison Control Center Immediately.

Look in your medicine cabinet, it's on the tube.

BTW, it took YEARS, for them to even print the warning label.

-- Deborah (info@wars.com), March 05, 1999.

I didn't say fluoride is totally harmless. To call it 'one of the most toxic chemicals known to man' is quite a stretch though.

And of course the 'point' of the critcism of the Tuskegee study, and other studies mentioned, is that the subjects weren't informed.

But to say that all of the Tuskegee subjects died of syphilis?? Please! Andy, do you really know anything about the Tuskegee study at all?

-- Ned (entaylor@cloudnet.com), March 05, 1999.

Fictionalized payback time -- "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross. See synopsis and reviews on Amazon.com

-- A (A@AisA.com), March 05, 1999.

I didn't say fluoride is totally harmless. To call it 'one of the most toxic chemicals known to man' is quite a stretch though.

Fluoridation of the drinking water is mass medication founded in politics and bad science!

Fluoride Information Index

Fluoridation of Public Water Systems: Valid Exercise of State Police Power or Constitutional Violation?

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), March 05, 1999.

Flouride is highly poisonous. If a child consumes a tube of toothpaste, the child dies. It amazes me that they make toothpaste that is 'bubble gum or cherry flavored.' It not only causes neurologic damage, but osseous dysplasia (fluorosis). The list left off the only Ebola outbreak in the U.S., which occurred less than a mile from an Army biological warfare lab in Maryland. Scientific American did a story on it in 94 or 95.

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), March 05, 1999.

Flouride at a strength level of only 5 times what is currently placed routinely in our water supply will cause nausea, vomiting, neuromuscular paralysis in young or infirm individuals, strabismus, seizures in susceptible individuals. At a dosage rate of 8 times the normal drinking water lever, flouride begins to rise toward the LD50 level (where 50% of the subjects can be expected to die). At 12 times the normal level, the mortality rate rises into the 80 percentile. Frequently, the symptoms of low dose flouride poisoning mimic 'chronic fatigue syndrome'----of course so do the symptoms of heavy metal poisoning which can occur because of the toxic mix sometimes occuring in tooth fillings----Flouride is NOT something you really want to expose you or your kids to if you can avoid it.

We saw some cases of this in the Tampa area in 1974 when the small city of Oldsmar had a disruption in their water supply. Nothing was ever publicly admitted by Oldsmar and the symptoms were explained by an "overrelease" of chlorine which also occurred. Trouble is.....symptoms are not similar at all. Don't think any deaths occurred but there was a whole bunch of sick kids in St. Joseph pediatrics with the same symptoms as listed above. (I was there..it happened. Disbelieve if you wish.) Back to my comment about heavy metal poisoning in dental work. The amalgam used in dentistry up until 1992 included mercury as a additive (don't know the purpose) presumably to aid in the binding or to add resistence against erosion???

If you have someone that exhibits symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome or has unexplained neuromuscular problems, see if you doc will run a hair spectrographic analysis for mercury residue. This doesn't show in blood work as the mercury is concentrated in the nerve filiments within the neural sheath and is released by the cell soo slowly that the blood level never climbs above "acceptable" levels.

Ned. OBTW, go back and check some of the threads on GN, here and World Net for flouride poisoning. This particluar chemical is scary because it is so sneaky and can masquerade as so many things.

Got good water??

-- Lobo (Hiding@woods.com), March 05, 1999.

Ned,

You're not a Centre For Disease Contol or Nuclear/Bilogical/Chemical scientist are you by any chance? Like to do a little experimenting would you? Hey, we've got plenty of schmucks in this country, why we've got 280,000 that would be only too happy to "serve".

I refer you to the following link Ned, nice try Ned but pretty lame as your ilk goes...!

Pick any that apply Ned...

P.S.

Speak to the relatives of the men who died - I think they would be able to put your brainwashed mind at "ease" Ned.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), March 05, 1999.

Andy, sometimes I really have to wonder.

At the times many of the experiments you cite were performed, the results weren't known. Experiments are done to get results, and to learn things. It's not particularly honest to say that these experiments should not have been performed, *after* we learned exactly what the experiments were performed in order to learn in the first place. Hindsight is great, and if we knew then what we know now, we'd never have done things the way we did them.

Sure, many of these experiments were not ethical. But there remains the question of tradeoffs. So thalidomide works great on rats without side effects. Should we test it on people? Never! That would be unethical, never use people as guinea pigs. Instead, let's declare thalidomide safe and market it. Of course, this leads to orders of magnitude more birth defects, but at least we did it ethically!

And yes, some of these were mistakes, no question about it. The government consists of people like you and me. Ever made a mistake? Ever had unintended consequences from something you did? Ever done anything you'd prefer not to have publicized? I recognize that the prospect of secrecy can tempt people into trying things they otherwise wouldn't try, for a variety of reasons, from misplaced curiosity, to an attempt to save time and money, to being able to use a politically powerless subject group.

I'm not trying to defend every harebrained thing governments or corporations do. But sometimes the *only* way to learn that you shouldn't have done something, is to do it and regret what happens. The important question is what organizations do with the information after they have it. Not how stupidly we can now see that they behaved out of ignorance. If they hadn't been ignorant, they'd never have needed to experiment in the first place.

And none of what I've said addresses the likelihood (very high) that some of these stories are either apocryphal or slanted beyond recognition.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), March 05, 1999.

Go back to sleep Flint, don't worry about these things, everything will be OK, sleeep, sleeeeeeeep, let us take care of you, sleeeeeeeeeeeeeep...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), March 05, 1999.

And BTW Flint, you've missed the point again as usual, apart from essentially admitting that you believe that the gubbmint had every right to do what they did (which I find quite disgusting), the post was meant to be read in the context of the y2k tsunami approaching us all.

The fiends that made those decisions, and continue to make them, will be in full swing at rollover.

What is wrong with you Flint? Why do you continue in this vein? don't you think you should re-assess where you're coming from, what is important to you? Why continue to out yourself?

Enough spin control already, gubbmint AND y2k - it's getting to be a little too much to swallow.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), March 05, 1999.

Attaboy, Andy! Attacking those who raise issues sure is easier than addressing the issues.

But I'm curious. Why are you so paranoid? What motivates you to compile a paltry lest of questionable reports? What improvements would you suggest? If you had the opportunity to be Absolute Monarch of the US for a week, what would you do?

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), March 05, 1999.

Gosh, Andy, I can't imagine why you brought up the '25 rules of disinformation' as they seem to me to apply more to you than anyone else on this thread.

You seem to think the accuracy of your claims is beside the point. A specific example is the Tuskegee study, which, indefensible as it was, you have nevertheless misrepresented.

If you are want to get people to take you seriously, you should make some effort to get the facts straight.

-- Ned (entaylor@cloudnet.com), March 05, 1999.

No they didn't all die of syphillis.Be sure and read 3rd stage/latent stage.

Results of Untreated Syphillis

Symptoms in Adults

The first stage of syphilis is marked by the appearance of a single sore (called a chancre). The chancre is usually firm, round, small, and painless. It appears at the spot where the bacterium entered the body. The chancre lasts 1-5 weeks and heals on its own.

The second stage starts when one or more areas of the skin break into a rash that usually does not itch. Rashes can appear as the chancre is fading or can be delayed up to 10 weeks. The rash often appears as rough, "copper penny" spots on the palms of the hands and bottom of the feet. The rash may also appear as a prickly heat rash, as small blotches or scales all over the body, as a bad case of old acne, as moist warts in the groin area, as slimy white patches in the mouth, as sunken dark circles the size of a nickel or dime, or as pus-filled bumps like chicken pox. Some of these signs on the skin look like symptoms of other diseases. Sometimes the rashes are so faint they are not noticed. Rashes last 2-6 weeks and clear up on their own. In addition to rashes, second stage symptoms can also include fever, swollen lymph glands, sore throat, patchy hair loss, headaches, weight loss, muscle aches, and tiredness. A person can easily pass the disease to sex partners when first or second stage symptoms are present.

The latent (hidden) stage of syphilis begins when the secondary symptoms disappear. If the infected person has not received treatment, he/she still has syphilis even though there are no symptoms. The bacterium remains in the body and begins to damage the internal organs including the brain, nerves, eyes, heart, blood vessels, liver, bones, and joints. The results of this internal damage show up many years later in the late or tertiary stage of syphilis in about one-third of untreated persons. Late stage symptoms include not being able to coordinate muscle movements, paralysis, no longer feeling pain, gradual blindness, dementia (madness) or other personality changes, impotency, shooting pains, blockage or ballooning of heart vessels, tumors or "gummas" on the skin, bones, liver, or other organs, severe pain in the belly, repeated vomiting, damage to knee joints, and deep sores on the soles of feet or toes. This damage may be serious enough to cause death.

-- seeker (CDC@CDC.com), March 05, 1999.

I don't know about andy, but if I was the absolute monarch, I'd resign and make sure that there was never another in my position.

Flint,

Am I to understand that you wouldn't be upset if you were having medical tests performed on you without your knowledge? If so, I'm an amateur surgeon, perhaps I can have your address. Do people need lymph nodes, lets find out!

-- d (d@usedtobedgi.old), March 05, 1999.

Gee Ned, It seems important to you that only some of the victims of the Tuskegee experiment died of syph., while the rest got to live for years without treatment for a horrible disease. What would be an acceptable casualty count due to Y2K screw ups and subsequent unrest? The point is that to a lot of our "leaders," we are as insignificant as microbes in a petri dish. I'm not paranoid, but I can tell when my rights and well being are not respected.

-- RN (DoNotTrustPostmaster@My.ISP), March 05, 1999.

d,

Am I to understand that you believe *all* medical knowledge of humans can be gained without any trial and error, withing experiments? Or should I instead understand that such questions are straw men?

There have been many unethical, ill-advised experiments. No doubt about it. Using hindsight, we can say that they should have known better. Meanwhile, the US is engaged in multiple long-term experiments. What will be the effect on the Nth generation of a diet of mostly fast food? What will be the results of esteem-oriented education? What medical effects will eventually be felt as a result of environmental pollution? What will be the impact of massive government debt? You can continue this list forever.

But the good news is, we're not experimenting with blissfully unaware but small experimental and control groups. We're experimenting on all of us, all at once, no control group. And we're doing it voluntarily. Perhaps future historians will wonder why we didn't try some of these things out first, on small groups of ignorant suckers. Why didn't we sacrifice a few unknowing experimental subjects, rather than kill millions? Well, I guess you'd just need to understand the moral climate at the time.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), March 05, 1999.

So what you're saying Flint is that we're all a bunch of lab rats to people who have more "knowledge" than we do?

Flint, I try really hard to understand you, really I do, you seem to be so smart at times.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), March 05, 1999.

Good job Andy.

Flint! Wake up! Your big brother is here and he wants you to do something for him. Man! I experienced some dip type second louies in the Army but you would make a high speed / low drag captain a very willing subordinate. Lets see...Ah, yes your honor. Mr. Goebbels ordered me to do that and I was obligated to follow orders.

I lost a high number of very close friends as a result of the US spraying one of the most carcinogenic substances available - then denying to them that their cancers and neuromuscular disorders was a cause of outside influence. I was lucky. They weren't spraying in areas outside of d'Nam. But they did get me eventually. Flint, your support of the government line that the 'end justifies the means' makes me curious about your actual reason for being here. And, makes me furious that anyone would be willing to stand back and let 'researchers' experiment on their fellow man without the subject's knowledge.

If it ever happens to me again, I sincerely hope that you'll join me in my test tube. It ain't no fun, baby!

Sorry for the rambling post. It happens to be a very sore point for me.

-- Lobo (Hiding@woods.com), March 06, 1999.

So as I am to understand Ned and Flint, regardless of what Andy has said, medical experiments are a necessary evil, regardless of who commissions the study???? My God, this country has really hit rock bottom in the last eight or nine years, and the level of ignorance is terrifying. Ned, Flint, when it comes time to use the government's 'showers' you can have my place in line.

-- John Galt (jgaltfla@hotmail.com), March 06, 1999.

John, you are so far off base, please go back and read my posts again. What I said was, Andy obviously hasn't taken the trouble to make sure he gets his facts straight.

I did say in an earlier post that if one wants to be taken seriously, one should take pains to make sure one's facts were accurate. I stand corrected. As long as one's ravings are 'politically correct' they will be applauded. Anything 'politically incorrect' will be flamed. Facts and accuracy come a distant second.

-- Ned (entaylor@cloudnet.com), March 06, 1999.

Ned tries to score points by claiming politically - incorrect - chic. Duhhhhhhhh. Face it; USgov has an amazing track record of abusing people when it suits them. Nitpicking on one or two cases sited by Andy hardly nullifies the gist of his post. And the cases listed are just a subset of their domestic atrocities. There's nothing particularly American about it all, it's just a government thing.

-- humptydumpty (no.6@thevillage.com), March 06, 1999.

Ned:

There's accuracy, and then there's interpretation. I'll let you argue over the accuracy, you make good points. I've already written that some of these stories are so distorted as to be fabrications.

We also should recognize that we might appreciate some of what we've learned, even as we decry the way we learned it. Medical experiments are like war in this respect -- some die so that the rest can live better. As I understand the problem, it's that the subjects of some of these experiments weren't informed. Of course, if they had been informed, the experiments couldn't have been done. Maybe people here have some blind faith that we'd have magically learned the same information some other way, I don't know. I do know that you can make an excellent case that we continue to suffer from a host of medical problems that could have been cured (or at least ameliorated) except that the necessary experiments cannot be performed in the current moral climate.

Andy, now, may enjoy where he's living. One supposes so, since he chooses to live there. And how was that territory acquired so that he can live there? Well, let's not talk about that, and maybe it will go away. Meanwhile, he lives there without insisting that we give the land back because it was immorally acquired. And he might well be healthier because of medical knowledge that was immorally acquired as well.

Political correctness often has more to do with phrases than with the meaning of those phrases. Milton Friedman pointed out that there is wide popular support for levying fines on polluters. There is no popular support for selling licenses to pollute. But these are simply two phrases describing *exactly the same policy*.

I'm not saying the government hasn't made some very stupid mistakes. I'd be willing to bet that if Andy could make, impose and enforce all the policies he wanted, he'd be appalled at the misuse that all of us stupid users made of his policies. And he'd blame the users rather than the policies.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), March 06, 1999.

One more for that list of atrocities:

Speaking of nuclear tests and indifference to casualties, a useful reference is American Ground Zero : The Secret Nuclear War, by Carole Gallagher and Keith Schneider.

Many areas of Utah and eastern Nevada were badly contaminated by intensely radioactive fallout from above ground testing at the Nevada Test Site.

The radiation produced immediate damage to people and livestock, and there were complaints. The Utah state government supported the testing regardless. The AEC's medical people knew that this level of radioactivity was harmful yet the tests continued in the interests of national security. Physiological effects are still being observed among people who lived in Utah at the time.

I think all these actions fairly qualify as "depraved indifference."

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), March 06, 1999.

Flint, Ned, would you like to borrow a shovel? I'm sure you could dig yourself in deeper if you tried...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), March 06, 1999.

No thanks, Andy. We don't need it, and you're doing just fine with it.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), March 06, 1999.

JCB???

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), March 06, 1999.

Following up on my post on nuclear testing---

I received a private e-mail pointing out that there were very good reasons at the time for developing nuclear weapons, and since testing was essential to development, a certain amount of collateral damage had to be accepted.

I wrote back, in part:

In this book it is amply demonstrated that the immediate damage was severe, both to people and livestock; that the responsible authorities were well aware that radiation at the levels experienced on the ground in Utah was immensely damaging to biological systems, and would continue to be so for a long time to come; and that the (Mormon) government of the State of Utah knew what was happening to some of their own population. Already by 1955 babies were being born in Utah with severe genetic defects, some fatal, all permanent, directly attributable to the fallout exposure. Yet the state government still chose to support the testing program; and refused even to warn its population of the dangers. Of course the same is true for AEC.

Everything considered, I think we were justified in testing. But the tests could have been conducted in complete security on some Pacific island under our control, avoiding the "collateral damage" to our own people known to result from the NTS testing. That option would have cost more. Lots more. So Nevada was chosen.

In other words-- what our Nevada tests did to Utah (and parts of Nevada) was the result -- the _predictable_ result -- of a decision to save money. I call this depraved indifference. I can't call it anything else.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), March 06, 1999.