Chem/Bio Training........pfffft : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

I believe the argument (poposed here earlier) need to be reshaped in light of this article:

-- Greybear

- Got Awareness?

-- Greybear (, February 25, 1999


They will not hesitate to kill you. You will not be able to reason with them. There will not be any second chances. You must KNOW in your heart what you are capable of. THEY DO!

-- Paladin (, February 25, 1999.


Like the IRS was used as a personal vendetta tool...

Delta Force is a proposed tool, too?

That's a wild statement, that where Waco, etc. were tests....hope it's not true.

- Got vanishing cream?

-- Lisa (wow@hmm.shee), February 25, 1999.

WorldNetDaily is full or crap. It has always been full of crap. It always will be full of crap because of it's whacko religious/anti-democractic agenda. Anyone who believes their line of crap is a simple-minded moron. Have fun in paranoid-land with the other conpriracy freakes.

-- Gotalife (, February 25, 1999.


I'm sure glad you do. Hang on to it as long as you can. I wish you only the best.

-- Greybear (, February 25, 1999.

Does everyone remember the final scene in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid?

These Night Stalkers and Delta force may be pretty good at what they do, but they don't have a prayer of surviving combat with well equipped, well trained, well led, well organized and overwhelmingly numerically superior regular military forces. Pick one, any one; 82nd or 101st airborne units (appropriate size, say company), Navy SEAL team, Marine Recon platoon, Green Beret team, Army Rangers, etc. I would also point out that none of those examples are known for their personal loyalty to "Slick". You can be sure that if these guys are as described by WorldNetDaily, the regular military establishment is keeping pretty close tabs on them and will ultimately take responsibility for them. If they have been "detached" from SOCOM, then they are in the same category as members of the military that have been assigned duty with the intelligence community and their actions should not be viewed as representative of the military, but rather of the agency that they have been assigned to (in this case, apparently the Clinton White House). The individuals who are a part of such units and who are so assigned very seldom have a future in the military, (such duty remains in one's record) but frequently have a future with the intelligence entity that they served (such as CIA) or politically (read as Poindexter, North & McFarlane).

WorldNetDaily makes these guys out to be supermen who are ideologically related to Hitler's personal bodyguard! I have a hard time seeing WorldNetDaily as an unbiased source. Yes, they have been basically correct on some items of interest in the past (such as the National Guard COMEX/MOBEX) but their reporting is always written is such a way as to create a bias in the mind of the reader and relies too heavily on sources who are unrevealed (if even real).

-- Hardliner (, February 25, 1999.

WorldNetDaily is definitely biased and slanted, but they have been the first to break several important stories.

When the FDIC's "Know Your Customer" plan was announced, I said "No way could this be true." But I was wrong. Dead wrong.

When WorldNetDaily initially broke the the Kingsville, TX Delta Force operations, I said "No way could this be true." But I wrong again.

So now I say yet one more time "No way could this be true." The trouble is, my track record on this isn't exactly stellar. I'm "0 for 2" and beginning to have doubts - I'm no longer able to write them off as 'just' whackos. While I don't accept their stories as absolute fact, I think this one deserves much deeper investigation.

Yes, WorldNetDaily has an agenda. Yes, they are definitely slanted and biased. So is Gary North. So is Infomagic. So is CNN. So is ABCNews. So is John Koskinen. So is Alan Greenspan. So is NERC.

I hope for all our sakes that WorldNetDaily is dead wrong on this.

Got No-Doz?

-- Arnie Rimmer (, February 25, 1999.


for what it's worth, I've had independent verification by face recognition IDs of at least two of the folks who were videotaped among the feds at Waco as being SpecOps, NOT LEOs.


-- Arlin H. Adams (, February 25, 1999.


I mean this sincerly, thanks again. To hear of Character, Honor, and Integrity spoken from the mainline mil types helps keep the snakes out of my boots.

-- Greybear (, February 25, 1999.


I have no doubt that your sources are correct and that the basics of WorldNetDaily's piece are also correct. My quarrel with WorldNetDaily is one of style rather than substance and sometimes their style detracts from their credibility, IMO.

As for Waco and Ruby Ridge being a test, whether or not they were intended as such, it is clear what the response from the public was (not). . . I believe the current administration to be evil, not stupid and as such they have "learned" something about the American public as a result. Let's just hope that the public learned something as well (although I personally do not believe that they have).

Along with many others who have voiced such opinions, I believe that the public will not respond, be it to Y2K, a Waco type situation or anything else, until and/or unless it affects them personally, and in a major way at that. "Sheeple" is too kind a description in my book. . .

My point is essentially that the armed American populace and the American military are all that stand between the forces which maintain "Slick" in the White House and totalitarian rule. I suggest that the group described by WorldNetDaily (be they Delta Force, Night Stalkers, or whoever) is a part of "Slick's" side of the coin and not of the military. I also promise you that military folk have far more disdain for politicians in general and currently a lot more negative feelings for "Slick" than the general populace.

I am saddened by the fact that so few of the general population have "up close and personal" contact with anyone in the military or a family member there. In my youth, it was a rite of passage for a young man to serve time in the military and we were all proud to do so. The Viet Nam debacle destroyed much of the nation's faith in the military, and those who stand between America and her foreign foes are largely regarded in fear and mistrust instead of favorably. I suppose it may be hopeless to attempt to point out the difference between a Delta Force member, who wears the uniform but obeys the pols and bypasses the military chain of command, and a SEAL, who also wears the uniform but obeys the chain of command which contains many, many links (all of which are sworn to the Constitution) before it reaches the pols. If the distinction is of enough interest to you, the information is available. I promise you that the distinction is important and vital to you and to our nation's security and future.

-- Hardliner (, February 25, 1999.

RAIL, RAIL against the dieing of the light. DO NOT GO QUIETLY INTO THAT GOODNIGHT!

-- Sam (We', February 25, 1999.


Everytime I see that poor Jarhead at the foot of the steps of Slicks helio and see him HAVE to salute, I think to myself "now there's a man *dedicated* to his duty".

I, for one, would be *very* interested in seeing an explanation of the different "speciality groups". From the general public view that I have, I can't see the difference. They all appear to be either ninjas (with the perjorative inference) or would-bes.

BTW, you are either one of the best spokesmen for the mainline mil I've ever heard or a plant. And if you're a plant, you're doing such a good job that I sure can't tell the difference. :}

I just don't think you can fake Honor and Integrity (in the long run).

Beside, I say again, your view on the mil is one of the *few* bright spots I see on the landscape these days.

-- Greybear

- Got Snake Repellant?

-- Greybear (, February 25, 1999.

Hardliner - sorry, I misunderstood - yes you're absolutely correct, and we are indeed blessed that there are so few of the questionables out there. Billy jeff is too militarily ignorant to realize it, but he'd best be careful or he may find himself in a home grown variant of the Algerian scenario with 1 Para Regt of the French Foriegn Legion...and for all of you newbies out there, yes I *know* there is currently no 1 Para Regt - I'm referring to why that is the case. Cowboy units lend themselves to barratry.

Arlin [who sometimes wonders what happened to this country, anyway]

-- Arlin H. Adams (, February 25, 1999.


I absolutely agree with you that most of the military would emphatically not agree with these type of operations. I come from a family steeped in father was career pilot of 36 yrs., my uncles - career pilots in military, husband - a Marine Nam vet, my cousin is currently a general.

Most military are very patriotic and politically conservative, as in, moderate. They have been mistreated and demoralized IMHO during the past few yrs. under Clinton's regime.

I agree that WNT-Daily is biased but DGI's think GI's are biased and vice versa. That's not really the point, IMHO. The point is that while the public cares about bread & circuses, our civil liberties are quickly melting. How this relates to Y2K is that GI's are basically survivors or trying to figure a way to survive. The uncertainties and possible chaos arising from Y2K can led to unscrupulous people, esp. in the government, to taking advantage of the panic to promote their agenda. Why else would the government not be more forthcoming and helpful in preparing the citzens for Y2K? For this reason we need to be vigilant and pray.

I pray that this country would rise up and see clearly what is happening to our civil liberties. I pray that this is a season for likeminded people at this forum and others to seek God and pray for mercy for this country. I'm overwhelmed at the things that have happened or have come to light in just the last couple of weeks. For instance: F.D.I.C.'s proposed intrusion in our banking activities - the Know Your Customer policy, these military exercises in civilian areas with live ammo, incidences of black helicopters, a wag the dog foreign policy with bombings timed with direct correlations with public revelations of Clinton's sexual scandals. Yesterday another funny coincidence - the timing of yesterday's bombing of Iraq hours before Juanita Brodderick's rape interview is aired.

I have followed on the net & in the news political and current events for a number of years but basically lurked and was not an activist of any kind. But I am greatly troubled and disturbed by the events that have either happened or have come to light in the last couple of weeks. This current season is a crucial time in our history.

Ultimately, I believe our fate lies with God. Our country was based upon Judeo-Christian values - no matter what your personal beliefs are, this is an historical fact. As one studies Bible history, one finds God taking an active role in the wellbeing or destruction of countries depending on their spiritual reliance upon Him. I've never really been interested or concerned about the word "facism". These days, I'm afraid, very afraid, of the reality of facism in this country that I love and I'm sure many of you love.

Please pray....

-- Texan (, February 25, 1999.

Hired thugs?

Boy Scouts (Eagle Scouts) that grew up and twisted?

L.A. gang backgrounds?

Just had to take a look at that Night Stalkers web-site mentioned in the WorldNet Daily article pointed out by Greybear above... bluesky_bresnahan/19990225_xex_the_military.shtml

(Leska, Its a public access site, wants automatic cookies at every page, just say no and be sure youve taken your browser cookies off automatic)...

Actually, I very impressed with these guys, Hardliner.

Some of them would be the kind to count on. Read the Operations stories.

Wonder if the Delta Force has a web-site? Hummm?


... The Night Stalkers have a website filled with occult symbols of death, Greek mythical symbols, and writings mocking the creation story of the Bible, among many references to killing and death. It is no wonder why so many military members have expressed concern over this group...

Night Stalker Shield Symbol (Special Operations Shoulder Sleeve Insignia): Half man/horse carrying sword in left hand, gold crescent moon in upper right, energized right hand pointing upper left. Night Stalker in word banner below.

Patch: Special Forces Airborne -- upright sword with 3 lightning bolts.

Patch: Airborne, green shield, horses head, gold thunderbolt

Motto: De Oppresso Liber

Shield: Divided into four green (2 ) and blue (2) field quadrants -- upper left shows sun symbol, the lower right shows a five-pointed star, red thunder bolt through the middle.

Night Stalker Home page:< /a>


This site is for Night Stalkers and their families. It does not represent the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, United States Army, or any associated organizations. This site is dedicated to all Night Stalkers and nay organizations providing support to their unit or their families.

They have pages for Night Stalker, Special Forces, Ranger, Airborne, Warrant Officer and NCO. Lots of creed stuff, all kinds of things to explore, maze-like at times.


Have no idea what the symbol on this page is ... all grey, double wings, a diamond-like item. topped by possible laurel wreath with a five-point star in the middle.


Actually, the Operations stories are quite impressive!!

Lists: Operations:

Urgent Fury (1983 Granada)

http:/ /

Prime Chance (1987-1989 Protect ships passing in Persian Gulf)

Mount Hope III (1998 recover attack helicopter in Africa)

Acid Gambit (Panama, anti-Noriega broadcaster rescue from prison)

Desert Storm (A fight in the Desert -- Under Construction)

Task Force Ranger

(Just quote and links: LEST WE FORGET - Gothic Serpent ... A Good Christian Soldier is just a click away from heaven.)


1994 Speech By the President awarding posthumous Medals of Honor (Quite touching)


Assured Response (1996 evacuation of 2,100 non-combat personnel, Monrovia, Liberia, Africa)

Joint Endeavor (Not linked yet)

Other pages ...

Ghost Riders

Shadows of the night deep within enemy territory. Few have seen ghosts and less have seen the Ghost Riders.

Interesting graphic: ... of death with a sickle inside blue oval with two patches... The double silver wings with sword and 160 and the red spade with a black sword. (Halloween appeal). default.html

Dark Horse


Night Stalker Mythology (links)


Sample: About Hooah U.S. Army Military slang definitions, referring to or meaning anything and everything except no. generally used when at a loss for words. Also ...


Commandments (Some pretty funny)


II. Thou shalt not expose thy shiny mess gear, for it bringeth unwanted guests to chow.
XI. Thou shalt not drape thy net on thy tent, for it looketh like tent draped in net.
[For Y2Kers...]
XV. Thou shalt conceal the noise of thy generator, for thine enemies are listening.

Murphys Laws of Combat


2. If its stupid but works, its not stupid.
6. Remember: Your weapon was made by the lowest bidder.
17. Incoming fire has the right of way.
24. Anything you do can get you shot, including doing nothing.

Black Hawk Down -- A Story of Modern War (Chapters, an online book & review) Default.html

Table of Contents (28 Chapters) contents.html

Where are they Now? (Quick updates and pictures) now.html





Thoreau quote:

If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.

George Orwell quote:

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

-- Diane J. Squire (, February 25, 1999.

Hardliner, what do you make of observations like this:

"Yesterday another funny coincidence - the timing of yesterday's bombing of Iraq hours before Juanita Brodderick's rape interview is aired."

Do you believe most of the recent (last year or so) engagements have been engineered? Is this a concern within the military itself? I suspect they are, but I'm just a Soccer Mom...

Greybear, what's "pffft" ?

-- Lisa (texan@s.well), February 25, 1999.

Lisa, it was the best imitation I could put into type of the noise I made when I read the subject article.

It's a sound of derrision or dismissal. In this case, for me, dismissing the arguments that pointed to the lads and their games in Texas having *anything* to do with Chem/Bio activities.

-- Greybear (, February 25, 1999.

Has anybody else noticed the disproportionate number of Texans who think the gov. is up to no good? Makes me feel kinda proud yall...sniff.

-- Nikoli Krushev (, February 25, 1999.


That same, ". . .poor Jarhead at the foot of the steps. . ." rendered that same salute to Richard Nixon as he boarded his helo after resigning the presidency. The man is not the object of the salute, the office (whether 2nd Lieutenant, General or (ex)President) is. If it were not so, "Slick" would get no salutes whatsoever. And, I have to say, that if America should be so fortunate as to see "Slick" take such a flight after resignation, you'd almost certainly see a "salute with a smile".

Your interest in the different special purpose groups within the military would be well served by visiting the various websites the military offers. Just use a search engine (such as Yahoo) and look for whatever strikes your fancy. Nearly all military units have pride in their part of the overall task and are more than happy to have a civilian audience (after all, the civilian population is who it's all for and a good proportion of the military are actually married to civilians and they even have civilian kids!).

Personally, I was mentally abducted at the tender age of 9 years by the Marine Corps in the public library in the town where I lived at that time. Ever since, I have asked nothing much more of life than the title, United States Marine. I enlisted at the age of 16 years after altering my handwritten birth certificate with a small brush and a few drops of Clorox. After 8 tough, demanding weeks at Parris Island recruit depot, I was caught out and returned to my mother. On my 17th birthday, I went through the main gate at P.I. again, and that time, they kept me. 16 weeks later (no credit for the first time around) I was a Marine. It is tattooed on my very soul and it is sufficient. I often tell folks that the Corps is a lot like the Mafia; the only way out is in a box and the only difference is that they put carnations on top and the Corps uses the Stars and Stripes (that's only partly a joke). The Corps has given me the strength and knowledge to survive whatever comes my way and emerge stronger or to die if there is no alternative. Comrades still living and those who have gone on have taught me many things, among them that dying is not hard, living is what is genuinely difficult. I cannot conceive of living after betraying my oath or my country or my Corps and I am only one among millions of Americans, active and retired, who wear the Globe, Eagle and Anchor.

-- Hardliner (, February 25, 1999.


That last post was great!

There's something about the Marines, no doubt. My family was all USAF but my husband was a Marine. This is strictly anecdoctal (sp?) but he was the only ground combat soldier I personally know of returning to the world from nam that is still together upstairs somewhat. I say somewhat because he tells me he still has an urge to fall to the ground when he hears a car back fire. He still cries 30 yrs. later over war memories...memories so, uh, heartbreaking I find myself unable to type them. But perhaps because he allows himself to talk about it and cry sometimes about them it keeps him healthy.

-- Texan (, February 25, 1999.


Think back to the opening moments of the "Gulf War". Ask yourself what the odds are that things would start poppin' just in time for the evening news in America (which is on the other side of the planet).

One of the reasons that the military got such a bad rap out of Viet Nam was that the press coverage was "managed" by the liberals. The military learned that lesson, and now "manages" the press itself. Simple self preservation.

That's not the whole story though. The current administration is managing the press pretty well also, and I suspect that the incident that you ask about (Juanita Brodderick's rape interview) is what was managed rather than the fighting in Iraq. "Sadly Insane" has a larger handle on when that happens than "Slick" does.

Add to the mix the fact that the military generally detests "Slick" but loves America and you have a real strange situation.

Everyone that I know believes that "Slick" uses the military for his own political advantage, yet does so in such a way that he can't be disobeyed without violation of their Constitutional oath.

I've said this here before, the military must depend on and count on the civilian populace to keep the government in line.

-- Hardliner (, February 25, 1999.


Medals and ribbons are evidence that the Corps thinks you brave.

Tears are proof that God still thinks you are human.

-- Hardliner (, February 25, 1999.


Gotta agree with your take of average GI's and their view of the current CINC. I know my last two and a half years were very eye- opening. I never dreamed of hearing so many people, senior officers down to junior enlisted, all saying the same thing about their oath to the Constitution and not that !@#$%&*.

I don't know about the Nightstalkers and any special allegiances to the White House. But if Y2K goes really bad, Clinton might with he was on VERY good terms with a large unit like the 82nd Airborne, a Marine Amphibious Unit or some other large unit that could repel lots and lots of angry boarders from the White House fences.

And for those who think the timing of military actions around key political events is curious, you aought to hear from the players in those airstrikes and other sideshows. A lot of folks are tired of being jerked around the planet to be Bubba's bully-boys. I wonder if TSHTF, would anyone really be willing to come running to help if he calls?


-- Wildweasel (, February 25, 1999.

There really is a Dark Side. This is it. The confirmed story on CAG involvement at Waco has been circulating for quite some time- this is not exactly breaking news. If you haven't seen the video _Waco- Rules of Engagement_, you need to take a look at it. Yes, it is edited in a heavy handed manner. But the people who made this one were self- avowed liberals- it debuted at the Sundance Film Festival, after all. And there will be a sequel out soon which promises further revelations.

Here's a news flash for another kind of DGIs- the people at Waco were murdered, pure and simple. It was not an accident. Whether it was "practice" or stupidity or "a warning" of some sort or bureaucracy run amuck I can't tell. But I know murder when I see it.

-- oliver (, February 25, 1999.

Ah, Sam. Love the Dylan Thomas quote, but you gotta quote it accurately,...

Do not go gently into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.


-- Donna Barthuley (, February 25, 1999.

Take Two: Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

-- Donna Barthuley (, February 25, 1999.

Excuse me, but I can't help myself.

Being only a part time lurker, I miss a lot. After reading this post I am struck by one major thought. As memory serves me, it seems that the only time publicly that I hear reference to the "oath of allegance" is in Presidential inauguruations and awarding of citizenship to immigrants. IMHO, the immigrants to this country live the spirit of this "promise" more then our current "president." These posts have reminded me that our men and women of the armed services also take this oath. (I do have not personal experence in the military; they rejected me many years ago for medical reasons :-( but I have known many worthy individuals in the service including two of my brothers, one Marine, one Army, and my step-son currently in the Army.) I really FEEL for the Marines that have to "salute the office" when the "office holder" is so unworthy.

But today, I have cause to wonder. ?Will the AVERAGE GI-Joe support the Constitution or "Slick Willy" when TSHTF? I am hoping that these individuals will remember their "OATH" to "Uphold the Constitution against ALL threats, both Foreign and DOMESTIC" even if the "DOMESTIC THREAT" is actually OUR OWN PRESIDENT.

Really wishing for Arthur, in our "TIME OF GREATEST NEED."


P.S. Grey Bear. I would be interested in talking to you off forum, please send me an email if you are interested. I respect you greatly. Your comment on a thread weeks ago about being a "knowledgable person about world 'myths'" really intrigued me, and your posts that I have seen in the last couple of months have increased my interest. :-)

Got an interest?

-- Merlin Emery (, February 25, 1999.

I must add my sorry two pence. Seems to me that one of the bravest men to wear the uniform of late was Michael New, who refused to exchange his U.S. Army gear for U.N. blue. They court-martialled him. So much for brave fantasies of the military standing and opposing the NWO. The Joint Chiefs sold out eons ago. Hardliner, with all due respect, Rome is now using mercs to extend the empire: another talisman of coming collapse.

-- Spidey (, February 26, 1999.

See also ...

The chemical soup boils.

S.F. Bay Area Cities Get Terrorist-Ready (Just-In-Time For Y2K??) 000Xs3

-- Diane J. Squire (, February 26, 1999.


I suspect that your heart is in the right place, but you have been sucked in by NWO fears and your own ignorance of the military.

Michael New is indeed a brave soul, but no more so than millions of American servicemen who did not see things the same way that he did. I respect New for his courage and believe that he did the right thing, for him.

Refusing to take part in a joint expedition of military forces from UN countries is, and always will be a thing so different from turning on one's own countrymen as to defy comparison in any meaningful context. I assure you, had New been ordered to attack Pittsburgh and kill Pennsylvanians, he would not have stood alone in refusing to follow those orders.

Furthermore, although the military court martialed him, many individuals within the military respect him for standing for his beliefs even though they do not personally agree with his position.

Have you ever heard of Billy Mitchell? He was an Army General who was court martialed and dishonored for speaking out against his superiors. He is today highly honored among military men and among the Air Force in particular, where he is considered "the father" of the US Air Force. Perhaps one day, Michael New will be hailed as the hero that he is for speaking out against participation in UN expeditions. Only time will tell.

In any case, do not make the mistake of assuming that because New felt UN participation to be wrong that all (or even most) in the military would abandon all that they believe in for expedience' sake.

Here is a letter from a military officer to an organization of military officers. You should have no trouble discerning the sentiment of the writer and I personally assure you that such sentiment is predominant in today's military establishment.


24 November 1998

Lt. Gen. Michael A. Nelson, USAF Ret. The Retired Officers Assn., Chairman of the Board 201 N. Washington St Alexandria, VA 22314-2539

COL Aldo Bottani, USA Ret., TROA NNJ Chapter CAPT William Connors Jr., US Navy Ret, TROA Lakes & Pines Chapter COL Warren S. Lacy, USA Ret. Editor,TROA Magazine (For Your Views article)

Dear General Nelson, Commanders and Editor:

This letter is about leadership. It is about the failure of leadership at the highest command level and the impact on military strength, readiness and morale. It is not about "politics" of a constitutional process as evidenced by the bitter partisan fight of national politicians over the impeachment of a president.

The elected Commander in Chief should resign. He is unfit to lead and send our troops in harms way. Bill Clinton, Commander in Chief admittedly not subject to UCMJ, must however, by example, set a high standard of honor and integrity. He has failed to meet the moral standards of our troops. ( Write and/or call to petition Congress.)

An immediate related objective is to counter the "400 Historians" and others defending Bill Clinton with signatures from ex POW's, Purple Heart and other decorated combat veterans. Can you suggest (or put me in contact with) others who are willing to speak up for active duty military who can't under threat of the ill conceived application of Article 88 UCMJ. (See New York Times article , 21OCT98 with my letter 28OCT98.)

I have observed a reluctance of TROA and other patriotic organizations to take a position because of the "highly politicized" nature and fear of losing their section 501c non-profit US tax code status. What a travesty. I am reminded of the Boston Tea Party and patriots willing to fight for a principle. This new form of tyranny that proscribes free speech must be fought to honor all patriots from Concord to Desert Storm who fought and died to protect our nation and its moral authority (I remember when Adolph had a good economy and Benito had the "trains run on time".)

I entreat you, our headquarters and TROA Chapters to find the courage and honor to do the "right thing". Our country is in need of a second General Billy Mitchell and another "Revolt of the Admirals". (Fire a shot that can be heard around the world.)

Respectfully submitted,

George J. Yatsko Captain, US Navy Ret.

-- Hardliner (, February 26, 1999.

Hardliner: I appreciate your thoughtful response. I will trust your assessment of our military personnel's reluctance to fire on Americans. I read the Special Forces Resister articles about the survey given to Marines at (I may be misremembering) "27 Palms." I'm sure you're familiar with it. A train of questions, the last having to do with orders given to fire on Americans who refused to give up their arms. I believe the majority indicated they would NOT obey such an order, with the percent refusing higher among those who'd been in the service the longest. Of course, the SFR writer suggested that the officer who gave those orders wouldn't be around to do it a second time. Still, everyone wondered whether the survey was a test balloon for a future eventuality. The letter you re-printed would have been more encouraging (right minded though it was!) if Captain Yatsko hadn't been retired. Article 88 UCMJ, I presume, is the much-bruited 'stifle' order on active-duty personnel who were openly complaining about Clinton. We all know there are many, many good, honest, principled men serving in the military. But, assuming something short of total chaos, where do you think the chain of command would break down, if posse commitatus were violated in a big way? Would there be open mutiny? Do the lines of communication exist that would allow the principled officers to organize a resistance to unconstitutional orders? I remember being at West Point in 1977, during a wide-ranging 'simulation' on the Mayaguez incident, when somehow 'ol Doug MacArthur came up: he was uniformly denounced by all USMA faculty present for speaking out against the CINC. Several of them said he had 'disgraced' the officer corps of the Army. MacArthur! Or consider the nefarious cover-up regarding the USS Liberty. Where was the outrage in the Navy? The crewmen who speak of it are treated as pariahs. The upper echelons of command are not going to buck the system, and if that day comes, it'll be up to you good guys. Godspeed.

-- Spidey (, February 26, 1999.


Yes, I know the survey that you refer to. 29 Palms is a huge Marine Corps Base in the middle of nowhere (the California desert). The base is named for the closest town, 29 Palms, California. The Marines stationed there belong to Force Troops (supporting arms such as special artillery, etc.) and several schools commands. It is unlikely that any of the troops who are stationed there would have to look an American civilian in the eye under such conditions and one can't help but wonder why the survey was given there in the first place. In addition, I am on record in this forum as having no faith in the validity of surveys or polls, period. There are simply too many variables involved to accept the results as reliable. Also, whether the survey was a test balloon for a future eventuality or not, there can be little doubt that its results would be considered in such a light. Who could possibly fail to do so?

There are far more active duty officers who would like to have written that letter than who would not. Here is Article 88, UCMJ. You can easily see why it would not be regarded lightly.


Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

As you may know, the posse comitatus statute applies only to the Army and the Air Force. Nevertheless, I suspect that if total chaos did not obtain in order for such a violation to come about in the first place, it would soon follow. I have no crystal ball, but I suspect that the results would be almost entirely dependent on the circumstances and who did what to whom. If the orders in question were clearly unconstitutional (such as round up and execute everyone in Baltimore) I am certain that NO ONE would obey them. If they were clearly within bounds (such as render assistance to the Miami Police Department, under their orders, to maintain order and protect property until electric power and water supplies are restored) then I think nearly everyone would obey. There's a lot of room in between the extremes though, where each individual would have to make up his own mind, as Michael New did. In the last analysis, none of us has any choice but to trust in the integrity of our countrymen who are in uniform. They have never let us down before, and I do not look for them to do so in the future.

I have little knowledge of the USS Liberty incident, other than being aware of its occurrence. Since I cannot say anything meaningful about it, I won't.

Finally you say, "The upper echelons of command are not going to buck the system, and if that day comes, it'll be up to you good guys." Let me suggest that it would be more accurate to say, "The upper echelons of command are not going to buck the system until that day comes." I can only repeat that I think that in extremis, they will do just that.

-- Hardliner (, February 26, 1999.


I want to present a hypothetical situation and get your response.

You have been ordered to "render assistance to the Miami Police Department, under their orders, to maintain order and protect property until electric power and water supplies are restored".

You are in place. Fully equiped.

There have been a few incidences of firearms used by citizens but nothing like firefights. Nothing like organized resistance. just some isolated shootings.The "authorities" express growing concern over the use of firearms. (Maybe you've even had some of you own wounded by citizens.) There is a portion of the public that calls for suspension of possesion of personal firearms. Just for the duration of the problems. Reciepts will be given to all. The firearms will be returned after the problems or over - when things settle down - all very resonable.

The "authorities" (doesn't matter exactly who, just someone up the chain) decree (doesn't matter how, it is a legel order, maybe even emergency legialation) that all firearms are to be collected. This will protect those who are keeping the peace. The above mentioned portion of the public cheers.

You are ordered to do house-to-house "collections", reciept book in hand. All perfectly legal. All apparently "good" for the community.

What will you do. You Hardliner.

-- Greybear, who thinks this is not all that unresonable of a scenario.

-- Grerybear (, February 26, 1999.


Why don't you ask me something hard? In spite of the fact that I believe your scenario unlikely in the extreme, or maybe because it is so extreme and unlikely, I have no doubt as to my duty and therefore, my actions. Such a scenario would be everyone's worst nightmare, but in many ways, dealing with it would be far easier than dealing with a more contemporary situation.

My answer would be the same as if "someone" ordered me to padlock all the churches or shut down all the newspapers or to "seize" food or supplies from citizens or to torture a citizen to secure a "confession" or to do a house to house search just to see what could be found or to summarily execute or otherwise punish a prisoner without proper trial.

The first oath that I ever took began, "On my Honor, I will do my best, to do my Duty to God and my country. . ." I am bound by that oath yet. When I became a Marine, I took an oath to the Constitution of the United States and I have sworn to, "support and defend it, against all enemies. . .".

I have been charged by the Marine Corps with rendering obedience to appropriate orders. Not lawful orders, and such an order as you have described or one such as I have laid out above are clearly not appropriate. They clearly violate the rights of the citizenry and clearly fly in the face of the words of our Constitution.

I would not obey such an order.

Furthermore, I would order all under my command to disobey such an order so as to relieve such subordinates of responsibility for that disobedience. In addition, I would with all the resources at my disposal and with all the men at my command, oppose those who attempted to enforce such orders.

Now, none of us can be sure what we will face in the hereafter, but in the event that I should find myself facing Nathan Hale, I do not plan on living my life in such a manner that I'd have any trouble looking him in the eye. Those who would destroy liberty and discard the Constitution in this country may deprive me of my life but they are not morally equipped to strip me of my honor. I've said it here before, but it bears repeating now: Dying is not hard. Living is what is really difficult.

-- Hardliner (, February 26, 1999.


Thank you, sir.

I wanted to pose that hard quetion because that's how I think it may come down. I do not think the powers-that-be are stupid, far from it. They understand mass psycology much better than us citizens. They are not going to do anything to trip any triggers. They are experts at placing individuals in a delema where what they have learned and how their lives have been molded wil serve the goals of the state. Incrementalism works. Except when the individuals have sound principals to fall back on.

My concern is the enforcers of the law. Both Police and Military. As an ex-cop I have some opinion on how most of the cops will react. (not a pretty picture).

Thank God for you and those like you in the Military, for I do believe we will see the Military active (in big ways) here on our soil.

I'm sure Patrick will say "Well done"

God bless you and yours and may you live a long, happy, healthy and boring life. And may you raise (or train) a bunch more like you.

-- Greybear

-- Greybear (, February 26, 1999.


Does anyone know what type of "oath" that police officers take? Living as they do in the neighborhood "line of fire," would they too be against "collecting personal firearms" from citizens "house to house'?

Wishing to be better informed.


-- Merlin Emery (, February 27, 1999.


If you will look aroung on the web you wiil find several sites by various Police organizations. One of which is the Nationa Police Chiefs or something like that. Several of the organizations OPENLY and AGRESSIVELYadvocate banning ALL personal ownership of firearms. OTOH, there are other cop organizations who defend the second ammendment.

The troubling thing is that those opposed to private ownership of firearms seem to hold a disproportionatly large number of "brass" postions. I anticipate the entire spectrum of responses from cops. The real problem is that they don't have the tradition that the Military has to fall back on. Their history is just not that unified. "Direct Orders" is not a concept that is as clearly understood as in the Military. This will work both for good and bad. Too many cops think the Feebies are the "big guys" and want all to badly to imitate them. As has been mentioned on this board several times, there have been too many sightings lately of Police wearing Military insigna. We can only hope they imitate those like Hardliner.

The oath I took 30 odd years ago was to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States and enforce the laws of the State of Texas".

But you really have to have been born and reared "south of the Red" to fully understand what that means. Our culture has a long memory. (I think it's the influence of all those nasty nasty Scots.)

-- Greybear, "nemo me impune lasseseit" is really a cultural statement.

- Got Bandages?

-- Greybear (, February 27, 1999.


Thankx for the response. My brother is a cop here in SW Florida, and he has a tendenacy to see in Black and White, with little or no grey area. He caries a gun 24-7 as the kids say, and I can easily see him supporting the 2nd Amendment (if he knew about it :-) since he really believes in the "right to bare (or is it Bear :-) arms. South Florida does not even come close to having the "Texas sense of Tradition" and I just hope that the local "county mounties" at least have a sense of history for the Constitution.

Wishing for more "arms to bare."


P.S. The Wife and I are still out looking for rural property. Wife says: "If we could afford to move to Texas, she'd want to live next to Grey Bear and Hardliner! Since that is not possible, gonna have to do the best we can here in SW Florida. ;-)"

-- Merlin Emery (, February 27, 1999.


As usual I find your explanations, from the military perspective, very enlightening. I wish you "were" my neighbor.

Night Stalkers

BTW, I do want to publicly thank the Night Stalker site's webmaster for sending me a private e-mail commenting on my post here. I look forward to your reply to my response.

I mean that, quite sincerely.


-- Diane J. Squire (, February 28, 1999.

Hardliner: again, much thanks. Bold, heartening words. I am in complete agreement about the utility of polls. My intuition also tells me that the military may be the last repository of traditional American values. If the legions must be brought home to save Rome, becomes increasingly difficult to argue against it. This is the America I saw just this weekend: Friday night, Bill Cosby encourages a 5 year old girl to say filthy words on television. Saturday, big write-up about 'Cruel Intentions,' basically child porn. Sunday: huge pic in the local paper of kids with lip rings, nose rings, pure paganism. 'Star Wars' fervor seen as 'new religion.' Op-ed columns explaining why the President raping a woman years ago doesn't matter. The End Times, by any measure. Sometimes I wonder what country I'm living in. Only a few, good men (and women) left, if one were to believe the bleating of the optical sewer. Which is why I ignore it. As Robinson Jeffers said, "When the cities lie at the monster's feet, there are still the mountains." Diane: are you able to communicate the gist of what the .mil webmaster communicated? We'd be interested.

-- Spidey (, March 01, 1999.

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