[Fish lays down on Shrink's couch]

I think I know to a small degree what the early trans-Atlantic sailors felt when they would enter the particular latitudes referred to as the doldrums. No wind (only hints of wind)...no forward movement....lots of expectation....lots of fear...clouds on the horizon. I've been tracking this issue since Aug 98 - not as long as some of you, but long enough anyway. I'm finding myself almost wishing for the time to pass quickly so we can see what is actually going to happen and get on with it. Guilt follows almost immediately, when I consider the consequences of a 5+ scenario. Interesting and uncomfortable mental state - not one I'm used to. Many of us are not experienced with this degree of anxiety.

[Fish gets up from Shrink's couch]

"I write this because I can - you read it because you want to"

-- abcdGoldfish (mnoGoldfish@osar.com), February 25, 1999

Answers

Fish, I can understand your feeling of guilt. This is experienced because you were brought up like a lot of the rest of us and were taught to help your fellow man. This isn't going to work this time. The y2k problem is like knowing the dam is giving way and NO ONE will listen. At some point, you must make the decision that you have done all you can and to stay and try to persuade others will only result in your demise. The major thing you must remember is that "In the end, every man is responsible for the means of his distruction or salvation". (Heinlien) This doesn't mean that you'll not regret their demise only that you're not responsible for the actions or inactions of adults. Take care of those you love. Lobo

-- Lobo (hiding@woods.com), February 25, 1999.

Can relate but have children that I want to have a little more time in this oh not so perfect global society we have created before it all comes tumbling down around them.

I only hope they can endure and end up strong and healthy both in mind and spirit and go forward to rebuild in a far better way than we have. I hope they can learn from our mistakes. But the past doesn't show that the human species has a good track record of learning from its past and its mistakes.

SIGH! What a despicable species we are. This wonderful planet we have been honored to grace and all we have done is mutilate and destroy it. What sort of fate do we deserve I wonder!

-- Can (relate@feelings.com), February 25, 1999.

WELL SAID LOBO !

I might add one extra thought.

The ONLY hope one has of helping others is to FIRST be able to completely take care of themselves without the support of the "infrastructure"

-- Greybear

- Got (enough) Beans?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 25, 1999.

Can, I agree with you; we had it all. Clean water, clean air, safe food, zillions of life giving trees and plants, species beyond imagination, all for our benefit. But we couldn't be happy with being stewards of the planet, we had to rape, pillage, slash and burn every beautiful and life-giving treasure. We bought into the siren song of greedy corporations, who gave us more and more junk, making us dependent on luxuries.

Now we are paying. I too worry for my grandson, and the children of the future. We took the best and left them the problems.

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), February 25, 1999.

Your right Greybear. Our society today is very much dependent on government handouts. When that dries up, millions are going to be found wanting and it's not going to be pretty for anyone. However, we American citizens have allowed it to happen. As long as we have ours and the govnerment keeps taking from us to give to others who haven't done a thing to earn it, and we sit back and complain but keep allowing it to happen, then we have essentially done it to ourselves and others. Now it's time to pay the piper and the civil unrest will come from those who have never been taught how to give to others but only to take. People who have no dignity or self respect will not care about yours, therefore, I will do what I have to do to protect my family and property from anyone wo feels they have a claim to it. A homeless person on the street said this to me "Lady, give me $5.00 so I won't have to break into your house to get it." That's the day I went and purchased a gun and I haven't quit buying them yet. Too bad I didn't have the nerve to say "Come into my house and the world will be rid of one more leech." "I write this because I can -- I hope you read and understand it."

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), February 25, 1999.

bardou,

You preaching to the chior or singing to the preacher or whatever metaphor you like on this one.

THIS subject is the crux of the greatest problem to face America. We've survived a revolution several Wars (that' with a Capital W) a great depression and several smaller ones.

We face many problems, all of which pale into trivialiaty compared to this problem. I've heard it called variously the "Character problem", the "Welfare problem" or the "Individualism problem".

In all the other great tests this nation had endured (and passed) we had a people who were first and foremost individuals. They were willing and able to care for themselves. I'll not get into why I think we have such a pervasive undertow of character. That an altogether different discussion.

But this "problem" is at the center of out future and is the real problem in Y2K.

An excellent study can be had, in my opinion, by reading Ayn Rand. I think she definetly goes too far in her conclusions. We do owe *some* debt to our fellow man. That debt starts with helping him to learn to be self reliant. When he's hungry, ablolutely, give him the fish, but then proceed apace to theach him to fish.

If he cares not to learn to fish then let him starve.

-- Greybear

- Got (good) Books?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 25, 1999.

Good morning, fish -------

Same plane as you - one quote I love, and shamefully can not credit it, is ".... like the life of a soldier: long stretches of boredom alternating with brief moments of abject terror....."

Doldrums are also known as Horse Latitudes... had to pitch the horses over to lighten the load, what with no winds to sail by.....

-- Lisa (lisa@work.today), February 25, 1999.

Greybear, we are singing the same song and preaching the same sermon.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), February 25, 1999.

I just realized that in my last statement "If he cares not to learn to fish then let him starve" there is much room for some caring person to misunderstand what I meant.

No, I do not mean that anyone who can't "work the fields" or "tote that bale" or "heave that barge" should not eat.

I is clear (at least to me) that some need to cut bait, some to bait hooks, some to clean fish, some to row the boat. some to cook the fish, etc. Everyone has *some* contrbution to make, let him/her contribute all they can and we have the beginnings of a civil, surviving society.

The core here is "earn you bread by the sweat of you brow"

-- Greybear, or maybe the sweat of your fingers, for those of us who pound keys for a living.

- Got a Job?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 25, 1999.

Greybear: What should we do with those that refuse to cut the bait, hook the bait, row the boat or fish? This is where the "touchy feely, guilt ridden," will have the most trouble. How would you go about getting rid of one in your camp?

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), February 25, 1999.

bardou,

You have no idea just how much I wish I had an answer for this question.

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 25, 1999.

Hey..Hey! Easy on the fishing metaphor...you're makin' me nervous....

Fish

"Life, much like beans, can create some undesirable consequences. Please eat accordingly"

-- abcdGoldfish (mnoGoldfish@osar.com), February 25, 1999.

Greybear, Fish. I know quite well what I would do with a predator around my camp. A predator takes what he wants with no exchange. This might be by force or by stealth. It's still theft. Could I shoot someone because he was stealing, You better believe it!! Could I shoot someone because he wouldn't work, No, probably not. Could I refuse to feed him? Yep. And he would leave because in my experience, most that refuse to work are bullies in nature and recoil from someone that will stand up. If he challenged me, could I shoot him? Yep. (Just think of the last politico you encountered). The one that worries me is not the thief.....but the neighbor that shows up with wife and three kids --- all hungry. You know he'll work and she'll work, but just how much food DO you have. If not enough, How The Heck do you send them on their way?? I don't think I can. Lobo

-- Lobo (Hding@woods.com), February 28, 1999.

Lobo, I'm sure that your question is one that has kept many on this forum awake when they'd rather sleep (I'm one). I think it's another reason that so many *don't* talk to others about preparations.

I've spoken to a woman who has fed people when she didn't physically have the food to do so - she trusted God, and the feeding of the 5000 became the feeding of her family and their guests. Do I have the faith to do the same, or would I selfishly (and sanely, by this world's standards) feed only me and mine? I hear God asking me more and more, do I trust Him, or do I trust my preparations - what I have in this world. I know the right answer, I'm just not sure I can truthfully give it.

-- Tricia the Canuck (jayles@telusplanet.net), March 03, 1999.

I just recalled that St. Paul had something to say on the subject of those who would not eat. Don't remember exact location. But I think the gist of it was No Workee - No Eatee.

-- Greybear, who wonders why he has St. Paul speaking pidgin English.

- Got Ration Plans?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), March 03, 1999.