The Most Serious Question for Prepared GI'sgreenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
Can we legally be forced against our will to a public shelter or camp, and is this likely to be attempted ?
-- Blue Himalayan (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 24, 1999
Likely? In times of emergency and crisis, anything's possible. Legal? The Constituion and Japanese Internment answers that question.
-- Other Lisa (LisaWard2@aol.com), February 24, 1999.
Your question could probably tke pages to answer in full, but briefly:
Not legally as you (probably) or I think of it (the constitution). However under Martial Law (which I don't think is legal) the Government can pretty much do anything it wants. If it gets so bad that the Govt. will try to force you to house people....by that time all bets are off and who knows what could happen. To put it another way, if we reach the "meltdown scenario" I doubt the Government will be organized enough to force many people to do anything. And if they did, what would you try to do about it anyway? So I don't think it is "the most serious question" for GI's.
-- Jon Johnson (email@example.com), February 24, 1999.
YES! There is an executive order that states that under marshal law citizens may be removed from their homes. Families may also be seperated and placed in work camps. These were orignaly issued during WWII and were reissued by Clinton. Also for those of you who are stocking up on gold, the government can take away your gold and did this during WWII.
You can find some of this in the warroom.
-- waylan jennings (firstname.lastname@example.org/maillant), February 24, 1999.
Legal or not, are you going to argue with the barrel of a gun?
-- pshannon (email@example.com), February 24, 1999.
So what is "the war room?"
-- Shivani Arjuna (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 24, 1999.
That is the same question I'll be asking anybody who tries to "legally" force me to go anywhere.
-- (Lancelot @ taven link.com), February 24, 1999.
Blue Himalayan,(this is opinion, no facts only thought & emotion)
This is a question I pondered a few weeks back. While I don't look at this as somthing that absolutely will happen, I have not found adequate information to convince me it absolutely will not. This is a terrible feeling.
The only thing that has given me comfort is preparing a 'bug out bag' (back pack) for each member of my family. It's not a cure, but it has provided some measure of comfort.
I have heard from natural disater survivors that your belongings must be closely guarded in a shelter enviroment because theft is rampant.
I personally will do everything I possibly can to keep my family out of a shelter. I'm all for community involvement guys, but as I've mentioned previosly, I have experience working with homeless people, I have heard every shelter horror story on earth.
There has been speculation in this forum about concentration camps and the like. While I have never blindly trusted gov. (my 1st t.v. memories are of Watergate (age 5) & Vietnam controversy) I don't think this is likely. With that said; anything is possible, so I have considered that too.
If I have any sound reason to believe that (gov. gone bad) to be in the wind, we will take those bug out bags on foot if need be & disappear. I have no illusions it would be simple, maybe near impossible, but we would try.
Like I said, I don't think this is likely to happen, but it is somthing I forced myself to consider, history is strange and often terrifying, I will listen to our founding fathers and closely guard my inheritence of liberty, and I will not fall into the trap of blindly believing 'it can't happen here'.
Sorry if I went too far of topic. To me, if we even need to ask 'can they make us' that alone is enough reason to consider those other possibilities.
No Flames Please, I KNOW how crazy it sounds.
-- Deborah (email@example.com), February 24, 1999.
This too is part of preparation for survival. I am prepared to die for my freedom and have resigned myself to the fact that this is a very good possibility. If I can't have my GOD given right to be free, then I will die fighting evil. They can only kill me once. I know that by giving my life, it will save many others.
After the facts were out on the death camps of World War 2 only sheep would go freely to its slaughter. I beleive there is hundreds of thousands in this country that would rather die then give up their freedom. The goverment knows this. I believe they don't want a war with GODS own people, as they will have the entire world at war with them already after everything falls apart.
May GODS Will Be Done,
-- flierdude (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 24, 1999.
I have to disagree. This IS the No 1 question for those who have or feel they have most of their preps done.
And, I feel compelled to repeat here:
It is NOT a question of LEGAL or ILLEGAL. The name says it all - it is MARTIAL. That, by almost any definition, revolves around the use of FORCE. When someone points a gun at you it is not the time to be concerned with legal vs illegal. It is raw force. Pointing a gun at someone is tantamount to an attack upon their LIFE.
Dont mistake the word LAW at the end of the phrase to have anything to do with us. It may well apply to the mil types within their world of rules and conduct, but it is the Bears opinion that the LAW part will have little if any thing to do with use "citizens". Law has to do with the Constitution of the United States of America
>Legal or not, are you going to argue with the barrel of a gun?
That is a two edged sword.
Put one more tick mark on you the counter board and shape it like a bear.
- Got Rights?
-- Greybear (email@example.com), February 24, 1999.
Where would they move us to? The local high school gym, which is already filling to the rafters with people who were not prepared?
I don't doubt they'd ignore our rights and the Constitution in a heartbeat. But what would be their reason for doing it? Wouldn't they consider a prepared, self-sufficient family one less burden to deal with?
And logistically...how and where could they possibly pull it off?
-- rick blaine (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 24, 1999.
I could easily see sewage back-up and pest/garbage control being a pretext, in both city and suburb. In rural areas, it'd be for your own "protection". They want us under their thumbs. For those rurals who think they could hold out, I have one word: sniper
-- Blue Himalayan (email@example.com), February 24, 1999.
And logistically...how and where could they possibly pull it off?
Those who think the military cannot control, contain, mobilize, or destroy an entire civilian population are not familiar with the history of Stalin against the Kulaks, or Pol Pot in Kampuchea.
-- Blue Himalayan (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 24, 1999.
I gaurentee that if things get as bad as some think (7 to 10 on the Yourdon scale) then the Armed Forces will be best to deal with any crisis. After all we spend nearly half the national budget on them alone. I would not doubt of their ability to maintain themselves after the initial shock. And I further doubt they wouldn't go on a human round up if they thought it would benefit them somehow.
-- (email@example.com), February 24, 1999.
In a nation of two hundred sixty million plus, how are the armed forces numbering far less than one percent of that number going to control the whole population? Especially when at least sixty million of the population are gun owners who likely won't cooperate if word gets out of evil being done.
The government may run relocations in areas where there are problems that make moving needed, just like hurricanes now. Imagine areas downwind of chemical plants if they go Bhopal. What if sewer systems start flooding. Or if the power will be down hard for months. Will authorities try and relocate the people? I'll bet they'll try.
What if the powers that be decide they need manpower? Look for urban and suburban areas, where population density makes it worthwhile to be where the powers throw out a net to scoop up some warm bodies. Meanwhile out in the country where folks are few and far between, don't look for many "press gangs" to be out and about looking for recruits. Farm work will take up enough of the country dwellers' time and if the government forces want to eat, they'll leave best enough alone.
-- Wildweasel (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 24, 1999.
>I could easily see sewage back-up and pest/garbage control being a >pretext, in both city and suburb. In rural areas, it'd be for your >own "protection". They want us under their thumbs. For those rurals >who think they could hold out, I have one word: sniper
I have one word, counter-sniper.
LM I may not live but I will die fighting.
-- LM (email@example.com), February 24, 1999.
I don't have the answers to any of those questions really...
I do know however firsthand the sneakiness of the Armed Forces and I also know that when it comes right down to the wire SOMEONE will want to be in control of the country. I just think the military is in the best position to grab that power. I can see the many people who will rebel and become guerillas but honestly of those 260 million Americans how many are fit for fighting? Maybe 50 million? And of those how many would really fight? Maybe 25 million? Of those how many would have the slightest idea how to organize a full scale war? And then how would they fight against tanks? With deer rifles?
This is all just speculation but my point is that if Americans wanted to confront the Army/USMC/Navy/Air Force then they have to make up for twenty years of civillian life almost overnight. The only hope any of us would have at freedom would be to follow suit of the Vietnamese and become geurilla fighters. If they can't find us then they can't kill us. But then again if they can't see us there is no threat to their power either. It would be hopless to resist against such opposition.
That wouldn't stop me from joining a rebellion but I sure wouldn't hold much hope of winning, or having any real victories in the name of freedom.
-- (Anon@moose.com), February 24, 1999.
But...Can't you see FEMA perhaps using bobwire around neighborhoods and you homes in fact become your "shelter"? Perhaps they will put in a few portable toilets and distribute water at a central location every day or so..Just a thought
-- rooster (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 24, 1999.
No one is taking me anywhere. I know what'll be waiting for me at those camps, IF I live to reach them.
I'll die before they take me or any of my family. I'll make some of them die first, too. It'll be a pleasure.
P.S. I hate fascists, does it show?
-- scooter (email@example.com), February 24, 1999.
How can they pull it off? A great question. Let's play devil's advocate and do some analysis. 1. Let's take a major city about 125 miles from me, say Miami,FL. 2. Let's close all major interstates, U.S. highways, state highways and thorofares. 3. Let's call it a 'military emergancy'. 4. Let's restrict all movement with the proverbial "shoot on sight" order. 5. Let's ration all food and water. 6. Let's confiscate and redistribute private property; say weapons, food, water, etc. 7. Let's arrest all "suspicious" individuals. 8. Let's assume that this can be done with less than 30,000 troops, well deployed with enough ammunition to last 90 days. 9. Let's assume that the 80-20 rule still applies; 80% of the population is a group of bleeting sheep that will do as they are told for "their own safety and protection" and agree to turn in their neighbors because they won't share their food. 10. NOW, let's rename Miami. You just need to add the term "CAMP" to it, and install some showers. You make the call. Can it happen here? You betcha. I've seen one of the "camps" in south Georgia, quite by accident. It will send a chill down your spine.
-- John Galt (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 24, 1999.
"And then how would they fight against tanks? With deer rifles?"
I'll wager some of those tanks will be on our side, but even if they aren't, tanks need infantry. Attrition may be high, but deer rifles will reach out a hell of a lot farther than M-16's. If enough people are willing to put their lives on the line, there will be no atrocities commited on American soil by the military - at least, not without a terrific cost. I would have absolutely no compunction, if it came to that pass, to shoot any brainwashed soldier who I could get in my sights.
"It would be hopless to resist against such opposition."
Only hopeless for the little slaves who have already given up. If I get killed in the process of securing my liberty, too bad for me. I'll have died free, unlike some who have apparently already given up.
"That wouldn't stop me from joining a rebellion but I sure wouldn't hold much hope of winning, or having any real victories in the name of freedom."
If you think you're beaten, you are. If you think you'll lose, you will. I sure as hell wouldn't want you on my team with an attitude like that. Hope your chains rest comfortably on you...
-- freedom (email@example.com), February 24, 1999.
You cannot enslave a man who insists on being free. The most you can do is kill him.
I don't remember who said that, but it's dam good..
-- Greybear (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 24, 1999.
GB - right on the money.
a few blatantly revolutionary things to remember:
1. M1A1 main battle tanks are too heavy for conventional streets as well as for most back roads - if they try to bring a tank into play, see if you can get them to drive over a conduit (in the country) or storm sewer (in the city)...believe the results will be entertaining (for you, NOT the crew of the tank). Alternative: use smoke to conceal a sharp turn or dropoff...
2. a couple of hundred gallons of LP gas released in the immediate vicinity of armored vehicles with their engines running will result in either: a. if there are any sparks, a fuel air explosion which will not be good at all for the vehicle crews. or b. if there are absolutely no sparks, the vehicle engines will redline and burnout the bearings. (this is less likely than a., but has been know to happen, when there was no way to detonate the gas).
c. remember to mix powdered laundry sopa with your gasoline/fuel oil in molotov cocktails (which must be *gallon* size jugs, not wine bottles), so that the burning mixture will stick to the vehicles.
-- Arlin H. Adams (email@example.com), February 25, 1999.
Greybear just wants to live out the remainding years he has on his 5 ac. Growing a few veggies, joggling a few grand kids on knee (if daughter bear will get with it) and generally living a VERY boring life.
Greybear would NEVER counsel revolution. Why that last bunch of scally-wags were treasonists and law breakers all. They openly (obviously) advocated overthrow of the existing government, took up arms and proceeded to kick some serious royal butt.
Nope, every man has to come to those kind of conclusions himself (and herself too !). As this thread proves there is a *wide* dispersion of opinions as too what one should do when faced with (probable) overt slavery. Those old farts back then made up their minds individually and then acted in concert.
It's a pretty deep-soul thing to think about for some. Pretty obvious for others. Every man must make his own decisions and be prepared to either pay the price or reap the benifits of those decisions.
The ol Bear has hereabouts propounded that the essential ellement that is relatively new for many is that everyone should (and certainly will sooner or later will) embrase the paradigm shift to personal responsibility. This is the key to our future. Whatever it holds.
- Got Self Reliance?
-- Greybear (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 25, 1999.
Beware the ghetto mentality. May 1943, Warsaw, Poland. For 27 days a handful of teachers, shopkeepers, doctors and others held off the entire German army. When that army finally overran the walled city they found less than 20 weapons. 20! There are millions of guns in the U.S.. in spite of the efforts of all the gun laws made so far. Make up your own mind. Don't try to make someone else responsible for your protection; not from a snowstorm, a backed up sewer, or an armed thug in the street. Remember the power of one.
-- Juniper (email@example.com), February 25, 1999.
you can fight(and die)but you can't get good press.our propaganda machine is the best in the world case in point;americans often think they live in a democracy.shoot at the troops and after you're dead the media will label you a terrorist.we'll need living reistance/geurilla fighters more than a dead marter who'll never be known as a marter.why be in a hurry to die?look at what the french did to the nazis,the resistance struck terror in the nazis!look at the viet cong!they kicked the sh*t out of th strongest war nation on earth not because they weren't afraid to die,but because they weren't afraid to live ENSLAVED that they might FIGHT in the dark,unseen.committing suicide at the hands of a grunt doesn't make you brave,being willing to live and fight does.
-- zoobie (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 08, 1999.
Zoobie, a long time ago on this forum a really cool poster E Coli who's now gone gave the following chain of inference describing the mind of the average media-tranced American. He viciously titled it:
"Glimpse Into The Mind of a Sheep"
'storing food' => 'survivalist'
'survivalist' => 'militia member
'militia member' => 'terrorist'...
... Terrorist Bad !
-- Ct Vronsky (email@example.com), May 08, 1999.
If we're all in camps, who's going to run the big American Machine? I have a friend from church who owns this huge precision machining business, Some of his contracts are for military parts. How can they keep making parts if they're all locked up? Even if they let the workers out to work and kept their families incarcerated
, would you work when your family is being held against your will? I'd tell them to go F@#k themselves. The only thing i could see happening is that they would round-up the lower class and un-employed. Those who, like it or not, are not crucial for the "machine" to keep going. Think about this. Try to learn a valuable skill if you can in the remaining time. Change your major from art to engineering.
-- rick (Ifirstname.lastname@example.org), May 10, 1999.
I'm new to this group/site. But I'd like to contribute a thing or two. I'm a 21+ year veteran/retiree of the U.S. Army. I did 8 years active, 6 in the Reserves, and 7.5 in the Guard. So I think I can speak with some idea of subject. ;)
Could the military be used against U.S. Citizens? Possibly, but the powers that be would have to be very careful. By and large the military doesn't like Clinton, they never have. But if they were directed to stop riots, looting, etc. they would likely do it. If they were directed to isolate cities due to health reasons, or some other trumped up but logical reason, they probably would. Only when things became blatantly facist would they start deserting in noticeable numbers. Most who desert would be ready and willing to join any group looking to restore liberty etc.
Would the government force people into camps? Probably not. They would lure them in using food, water, medical attention, heat, etc. as the bait. They would only allow people into "safe" areas who were unarmed and correctly IDd. They would expect residents of the "safe" areas to work for the common good, or not to eat etc. People with special skills (medical, dental, electrical, HVAC, electronics, nuclear, etc.) would likely be impressed into government service, again for the common good. If you tell them to fly a kite, or something more colorful, your family doesn't eat. Then they start on the peer pressure (Look everyone, John Public doesn't want to work! He and his family are anti-social. Don't associate with them. Etc.). If you're really a problem they escort you out of the camp, I mean safe area. What happens after that is dependant on who is running the show and just how bad things are. Your skills, or lack of them, could also be a factor.
What areas are most at risk for this scenario? The major cities will be the most likely locales. The greatest population concentration is here. The majority of the infrastructure is located in these parts as well. Rural areas will probably be ignored for quite some time, they don't have the resources to do much more than the biggest/most important cities.
Of course all of this assumes a complete meltdown of our way of life, Y2K at the extreme end. Anything less should cause less turmoil, less government heavy handedness. But my point of view is that it's all Russian Roulette. The only question is "how many of the chambers are loaded in this version?"
Personally I don't plan on sticking around long enough to be a candidate for movement to a "safe area".
Hope for the best folks, but prepare for the worst. Never forget that you are Americans! You were born free, you should die free! Hopefully later than sooner.
-- Adler (email@example.com), June 11, 1999.
I believe that Robert Heinein used the phrase "You cannot enslave a free man, you can only kill him" several times. I do not know if it was original with him.
Yes, there is no need to make things "rough" when people can be "lured" in.
I to have just moved to the country. I feel better out here.
Live free or Die.
-- Jon Williamson (firstname.lastname@example.org), June 11, 1999.
Lotsa' tough talk. I hope none of you who are ready to take on the military have already done the same with the IRS. If you're paying everything that "they" say you owe, then you're already a slave. Anytime a people pay 30-40-50% plus in taxes they are no longer a free people and that doesn't even consider the regulations for individuals and busnesses. We are already enslaved and I don't see people signing up for the tea party. No, I'm not going to die on "that" hill. But I do know which hill I will go down on and that is: Jesus is my Saviour, Lord and King of Kings. You can boil me in oil but you can take your mark and stick it where the sun don't shine.
Rev. 13:7-10 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them; and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."
-- sdb (email@example.com), July 10, 1999.