If the stuff hits the fan then it will be important that we stick together as a nation. There are those who will view us (USA) and our wealth and they will/do want it!

Today had an interesting experience with my nephew and his friend. They are doing a class project and it has to do with firearms, firearms safety etc. The kids (fourteen) are showing, on video, how to load, operate and shoot many different types of weapons. These are kids I am talking about and they are expecting something. I do not propagandize them and rarely see them. My home is out in the sticks so I allowed them to film their school project here, with live fire etc.

At the end of the day my brother said, "I have some new neighbors on the street and they have posted a bunch of weird signs, 'keep out' and that sort of thing. He is gonna visit them today.

Point! If you people are heading for the hills get off your high horse! People do not take kindly to a bunch of techno hippies moving in and then posting everyone out. We are a nation of people and we will survive as such. Hold your fire until you are sure I am the enemy.

We don't want a bunch of fat ass Rambos running around thinking they are it. Just because you have gotten a whiff of FREEDOM does not give you the prerogative to come around and start stuff/dung/shit.

Try thinking! United we stand, divided we fall!

My sons are in the military and I have very difficult time thinking that they will come and take me (or you) away! Some of the best people I have ever meet were/are American military men!

-- Mark Freeman Hillyard (foster@inreach.comakafreeman@cali.com), February 20, 1999.

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), February 20, 1999

Answers

You've posted the first thought in another thread and my question is what is it that leads you to think that the word and concept "nation" is other than merely an abstraction that politicians use to rouse a bandwagon sentiment in constituents? Nation? My take on it is that use of the word in that context has never been anything more than a way to manipulate sentiment that is not attached to reality.

Nation is an abstract. It does not exist except in the hallowed halls of the politicians. Government is the nation. I am not. I am an individual. The "nation" that claims me as a "citizen" does abhorent things whether I vote for them or not.

Quit pretending.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), February 20, 1999.

Hey Mark, What the hell is your problem? You call people that do not want others to trespass upon their property 'weird'?

Perhaps you can explain to me what the hell business it is of yours what OTHER people do on their own private property. perhaps you can tell me what freakin' business it is of yours to decide that they should not post their own land.

I have no signs posted on my land yet, but in the next month or so, I will have a 'no trespassing' sign posted every 50 feet along my entire property line.

And it is YOU that I am trying to warn to stay out. Perhaps you have no regard for private property. Perhaps you think that a 'newcomer' has no right to tell you to stay off HIS property.

I have already encountered assholes like you where I live. They hunted on what is presently MY land for years and were upset when they could no longer do so. Tough shit.

Yet, I have NOT denied permission to hunt to a SINGLE ONE of them who has ASKED for permission to do so.

And if you 'visited' me with your attitude that I can not do EXACTLY as I see fit with my own property, then it is YOU who are behaving as the poor neighbor. Good fences make good neigbors. They keep out trash like you who do not respect the property rights of others.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), February 20, 1999.

Understood!

"Fishing in the bayou all my life an' gov'ment man says to me."

"Got a li'sen?"

"Why I gotta have a li'sen?"

He reply.

"Cause....You gotta have a li'sen!"

We are sovereign citizens of the USA and we do not need a "li'sen" to be here. They have crept in while we were sleeping!

We will be free!

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), February 20, 1999.

Have two properties in the mountains and people are welcome there! You are welcome also. And you are welcome to what food and ammo I have in my possesion.

What else?

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), February 20, 1999.

As regards the word "nation", its original meaning was synonymous with the term "race", and has nothing to do with "government". The terms "nation" and "government" are not equivalent. One refers to the body of people themselves, the other refers to their leaders/rulers.

Leaders/rulers often commit acts that the people are not in favor of - just look around :)

...and please, no flames regarding the definition of "nation"... look it up in an older dictionary if you think I'm misleading you.

-- Why2K? (who@knows.com), February 20, 1999.

Dear Paul,

I totally respect your property and your rights! I do object to people moving in and then telling neighbors that..."we do not respect the fact that you may be respectable neighbors and the hell with you."

I am talking about civility and common sense. Most in this country have been forcibly divoriced from this consept and if we are to survive as a nation then we had better start acting as a nation...sans the bureaucrates.

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), February 20, 1999.

-- Why2K? (who@knows.com), February 20, 1999. I can agree with your line also.

My nephews friend is Chinese...However, like Ken Hamblin (black man) he may think that this country and the over-whelming freedom, wealth and opportunity that is available here might be worth siding with us (white guys) over.

In spite of the attacks I may gender over this next line...It is them against us!

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), February 20, 1999.

Why2K, I'm not talking about the definition of the word 'nation', I'm talking about the usage as in Mark's original thread. He said something like "we are a nation". Well, I am not a we, and I am not a nation. Nation in that way is, in the words of Vonnegut: a granfalloon...a meaningless congregation. Talk to me of individuals with gumption who have some knowledge of human relationships, and we can talk about groups of individuals who can accomplish things. Numbers beyond about 100 are meaningless.

Just my nickel's worth.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), February 20, 1999.

Paul, I believe what Mark was referring to was that some people descend upon a rural community with no regard for the customs of the folks already there. Sure, you have a right to post your property... people shouldn't be on your land for any reason unless they have your explicit permission, and there always seem to be goobers that don't care who's property they're on when hunting, fishing or cutting timber. As you said, you'd give permission to anyone who asked, and that's friendly enough... and I imagine that your neighbors take no offense in having to ask first.

At the same time, we've seen a lot folks move out to the boonies and proceed to do nothing but make enemies. Mostly it's do to lack of understanding between cultures, but often it's because the new folks acted like utter idiots over things that were part and parcel of the community. Take manure, for example... had a guy move in next to a farm hereabouts, and from the first spreading, he was in absolute hysterics because of the smell. Actually went to the sheriff to attempt having his neighbor stop spreading. Tried to get his other neighbors to sign a petition (with no luck at all). That summer two of the local kids took a shortcut through a field on the edge of his (unposted) property, and he threatened them with a gun. Hell, there was almost a thorofare where the kids were walking, had been for years - it was a path to a brook where a farmer let anyone fish. It's not like he'd been having any trouble from kids, or anyone else, either. A fence and a sign would've been a lot nicer than a shotgun, but simply finding out about local customs and choosing not to exercise his rights would've made him a lot less enemies.

-- Why2K? (who@knows.com), February 20, 1999.

I just love you Donna, but you are wrong on this point! We will survive and we will have peace! Love you man...I mean woman!

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), February 20, 1999.

No mark, you do NOT respect the rights of others. from your own mouth:

"We don't want a bunch of fat ass Rambos running around thinking they are it."

What 'YOU' don't want them to do on their own property is none of you're damn business.

I don't care if some guy drops a pink trailer in the middle of your damn bayou. if it is on HIS property, then it is HIS business, and not yours.

For some reason, you think that those who are already present have some peculiar claim upon what can or can not be done by someone else on their own property if they are johnny-come-latelies.

If you don't like the way they look or the way they talk then you have a problem with them. I am surrounded by red necks where I live. I will ALWAYS be referred to as 'the Yankee'. It does not bother me when it is good natured.

What does bother me is when 'locals' think they have some superior rights or claim to the property of others because they were in the neighborhood first.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), February 20, 1999.

Read about a guy who moved to the country, went fishing...ran out of bait, asked another guy fishing nearby if he had any extra bait he could sell...The other guy said, "No, but I've got some I could give ya--you're not from around here, are ya?"

The point being, country folk like that are accustomed to sharing and helping each other out. That's why city folks with their "every man for himself" attitude aren't going to get along so well.

-- Shimrod (shimrod@lycosmail.com), February 20, 1999.

Dear Paul,

Sorry to dissagree with you again! Rambos are not welcome in the military sense and they do not gender unity! We must act as one else they got us! Get it?

"For some reason, you think that those who are already present have some peculiar claim upon what can or can not be done by someone else on their own property if they are johnny-come-latelies. "

Not so from my perspective! I am a native Californian and I have always welcomed newcomers here! I am talking about being neighborly and being respectful.

My ex's family owns a beautiful piece of property on the Yuba River in California and the only easy access to it, from town, was through their property. They never even thought of stopping tourists from venturing through. Unlike others!

Think about others, they hurt, cry and get hungry just like you!

"God bless America again. You must know the trouble that she's in..."

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), February 20, 1999.

<"<"http://www.yourdon.com">http://www.yourdon.com">

-- test (test@test.com), February 20, 1999.

<"http://www.yourdon.com"><"<"http://www.yourdon.com"><"http://www.you rdon.com">">

-- (test@test.net), February 20, 1999.

Where the hell you been lately Mark?

We are already divided as a nation.

Paul is right on.

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), February 20, 1999.

test test test test test test ( test at test) ( test at test)

howto use HTM

-- (test@test.com), February 20, 1999.

To the "tester" - Mark is trying to get his point across - please give him the freedom to do so. It will be better if you use one of the "html trainer" threads to practice in.

Then come back here and let him have it!

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.R@csaatl.com), February 20, 1999.

It seems to me that we "rednecks" have a much greater respect for the land, wildlife and .living peacefully with neighbors than do newcomers who move in. They cut down every tree in sight, scream and throw rocks at anything that moves, refer to locals as rednecks, or hicks, and generally act like people behaving badly. They want to live in the country with all the amenities of the city. Yes we should all stick together Mark, but when a newcomer moves in and acts like we should all be grateful for their presence, it just doesn't work.

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), February 20, 1999.

Then come back here and let him have it!

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.R@csaatl.com), February 20, 1999.

Have what? Do I win something?

"Yes Mark you do! Maybe some people will think a bit before they shoot!"

We will be free!

"Love ya man!...woman!

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), February 20, 1999.

FrEaMan!!!!What in the name of HEAVEn ARE YoU TALKiNG ABOUT???? IDIOT!!!!YOu START A thReAD IN WHich you COMPLain!!!! WHY DO You COmplAIN???? BECaUSE YOu are upsEt that your NEW NIeGHBOR WIShES tO HAVE THE FReeDOM OF PRIvacy????? DO You WISH FREEdOm onLY FOR youR SHALLow BUSIBoDY Mind???? INFIDEL!!!! STOP being So FOOLISH and NOSy??!!!!!

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), February 20, 1999.

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), February 20, 1999.

Wo w

Di

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Like wOw

1 Dud gOY aney Greeeeeen Bu8d, I meaN GreEn Butttt, II meAn GrEEn Bud

LIke /Wow cooool dud.

Feure Ount

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), February 20, 1999.

Since YOU ASKeD dIETER NIcLY DIEtER WILL ANSwER YOU!!!! YES YES FouRTEEN TimES YES, YOU ARe a JACk ASS!!!!! DO YOU NOt see it>????? WHys it WRong for othERS TO WISH TO noT HAVE your curIOUS INFIDEL JACKASS NOSE UNdER THEir TENT?????? BUNGHole!!!!

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), February 20, 1999.

Sorry I only got cigars tonight...no green bud! Else I WoUld tRy ttO ccooomverse witdh youu!

"BUNGHole!!!! " If YYoooyiuu watcheded Butt BRRAain Ian Beeve is on tttttteeVEEE tthhen Youu wooould No itrs is BUNGHOLIE! gOOT GRREEN BUTT?

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), February 20, 1999.

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), February 20, 1999.

My wife is an exwife of a California Highway Patrol kinda guy. She thinks Bagga Doughnuts is an ex-copper kinda guy!

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), February 20, 1999.

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), February 20, 1999.

Addendum to my last post. (or should I say, my womans addendum.)

Bagga is a[n] ex-cop!

Nothing against cops! My ex ran off with one and is living happily!

Thank you God!

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), February 20, 1999.

I can understand why she is living happily.

-- dave (wootendave@hotmail.com), February 21, 1999.

Why2k -

my soon to be foster children are mixed race...my friends and family come from several racial groups. My nation is the United States, and my sworn allegiance is to the Constitution - all of it...as is the case for everybody with whom I associate. If, during strife or civil unrest, anyone should try to play racist games with any of us, they will deal with all of us. Indeed, I have done everything I can to teach our folks, especially the kids, that racism is sinful, inherently evil, and treasonous to boot. I know of many good conservative folks, including friends in a number of southern and western states, who are teaching the same things.

I would suggest that if you suddenly start assuming things due to the fact that you meet someone whose skin color is the same as yours, you could be in for a rather nasty surprise.

Tolerance of evil is NOT a virtue.

Arlin Adams

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), February 21, 1999.

Yoy start holding up the racial card to me and I'll put a hole dead center in it out to 300 yards and I might have a round or two to spare.

-- Greybear, who is absolutely intolerant of racial crap, try it and you get to hear the bear growl.

- Got your Toe Tag?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 21, 1999.

Wow, Arlin, where are you coming from?? Here's my only post to this thread so far:

As regards the word "nation", its original meaning was synonymous with the term "race", and has nothing to do with "government". The terms "nation" and "government" are not equivalent. One refers to the body of people themselves, the other refers to their leaders/rulers.

Leaders/rulers often commit acts that the people are not in favor of - just look around :)

...and please, no flames regarding the definition of "nation"... look it up in an older dictionary if you think I'm misleading you.

Exactly what in that post enraged you enough you to make such statements? I can't figure that one out, but you seem to want to make hay with it. OK, I'm game, here goes:

my soon to be foster children are mixed race...my friends and family come from several racial groups. I also have friends of several races. However, I consider race-mixing to be a sin, according to Scripture, and hence evil. Not that the products of such mixing are evil (the children obviously can't help it), but the act itself is.

My nation is the United States, and my sworn allegiance is to the Constitution - all of it...as is the case for everybody with whom I associate. My nation is also the United States, but my race is white (Christian Israel, if you prefer), and I love both my country and my race. Do you remember the Scripture about treating the stranger within the gates as you treat yourselves? That covers all other races in this country, who should be treated equally. My sworn allegiance is to my God, first and foremost... the Constitution is not a god to me, and I do not genuflect to it where it conflicts with Scripture.

If, during strife or civil unrest, anyone should try to play racist games with any of us, they will deal with all of us. Me too... especially if a group of black/latino gang members want to kill me and rape my wife because we're white. That happens quite often, you know. I'm with you, Arlin.

Indeed, I have done everything I can to teach our folks, especially the kids, that racism is sinful, inherently evil, and treasonous to boot. I know of many good conservative folks, including friends in a number of southern and western states, who are teaching the same things. If by racism, you mean that one race is superior to another, I agree, for such an attitude is not Scriptural and leads to hatred and violence. If, on the other hand, your definition of "racism" means that white people should just lay down and let themselves be trampled by other races because we are inherently evil, I disagree. Vehemently.

I would suggest that if you suddenly start assuming things due to the fact that you meet someone whose skin color is the same as yours, you could be in for a rather nasty surprise. I assume little about a person, short of what their demeanor and style of dress tell me, but I still don't let any stranger get too close. Of course, when I meet a black man, I can't help but recall the study that found something like 3 out of 4 have been arrested in the past, and I admit to erring on the side of caution. Any white person who says that he/she doesn't have that thought cross their mind in such a situation is either a liar, or has an extremely weak sense of self-preservation.

Tolerance of evil is NOT a virtue. Agreed. However, your version of evil and mine apparently differ somewhat. I consider destruction of any race through race-mixing to be evil. It destroys both races. I consider the propaganda campaign designed to instill a sense of racial guilt in white America to be evil. Further, I find those of a given race who seek to undermine their own race to be unspeakably evil.

Having said all this, most of you must have figured out by now that I don't care what anyone here thinks of my beliefs. Arlin wanted to push the issue, as he has done before, and I have stated my case. In the few months that I've been here, I have done my best to help those I could with information and practical answers to Y2K-related issues. I harm no one with these beliefs, but I'm sure that there are more than a few of you out their who would like to see me dead for having them, even though you don't know me personally. You see, I'm quite well-liked by those who know me, but obviously that level of friendship isn't possible on an electronic forum like this.

That said, I've had enough. I wish you all well, and may this time next year find you all in well-lit homes, with food to spare and generators to sell. Good luck.

-- Why2K? (who@knows.com), February 21, 1999.

WHY, Why2K, do you suGAR COAT YOUR JACKASS RACIST ViEwS??? Race MIXing???? WHat do you mean RACE MIxiNG???? HUMans AND DONKEYS???? HUmanS AND MONkEYS????? WhaT DO YOU MEaN ????? TRAitOR TO HIS race??? So shALL This meAN the HUMAN RACE???? THE Race of man AND OTHER RAces???????SHeeP??? CoWs????

OR Do you mean WHITES AND NON WhiTES???? Why cannot AN INFIDEL SPEAk moRe CLEARLY?????????IF YOU are a BIGOT SAY IT!!!! Are you ashAMED OF YoUR BIgOTRY?????DO NOT BE AN SHY IDIoT, WHY WouldYou not BE A PROUD BIGOT?????

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), February 21, 1999.

Ouch. Farewell Why2K.

With such deep, cutting convictions on everyone's part (all views), do any of you still believe in a "nation"?

Melting Pot or Chunky Stew?

We're doomed I tell ya...doomed! (borrowed that from another thread.)

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 21, 1999.

Dear Dunderheads; Paul is some what right. I grew up in the country, and now live in a burb. It was, the very respect for other peoples property, that allowed us to roam free over the landscape. Today there is little respect for other people, and even less trust. Trust was, and is, the foundation for freedom. Trust was never learned in the cities. People do not know people that live two streets away. I am the last person that wants to see ground posted, but a person has every rite to do so. I grew up on a 285 acre farm that is now a town. I walk out the back door of my parents house 50', and it is posted! Pissed off to the max when I see those signs, but I must, and do, repect the owners whishes.

-- Scotty (BLehman202@aol.com), February 21, 1999.

So long Why2K. Can't say as I blame you for leaving, that toe-tag remark and Arlins' flame were pretty ugly. You guys ever think about learning any real tolerance?

-- pretty (disgusted@you.two), February 21, 1999.

Mark, thanks for the thread.

Everyone, this just highlights what I've been saying for two years. Anyone who moves to the country better plan on it being a while to get assimilated. You can join the Grange, volunteer Fire Dept, buy the bar a round, attend school functions, attend church, etc. and these will help the assimilation process - but it will still take more time than you think.

There is a balance point between signing a property and letting everyone walk or drive through.

There are people who Live in the country. There are people who live in the country and it is just their bedroom.

Some people contribute to the community, some people take. Some people are preditors, some favor community action.

If you are just moving to the country, don't assume that the locals don't know whatinthehell they are doing. Don't assume your politics are better than theirs. Don't assume they are unintelligent hicks.

Mark, I think it is great that the school was teaching kids hands-on about guns. It will be a lot harder for the anti-gun propagandists to brainwash those kids.

I'm not ashamed, nor think it wrong to count myself as part of this nation of people. Bigotry of any kind sucks.

All y2k prep is site specific.

-- Mitchell Barnes (spanda@inreach.com), February 21, 1999.

I think the arguements contained in this thread are the essence of the differences between the libertarian and communitarian views. The arguement that one can plop down a pink trailer (to use that offerred analogy) on their property and eveyone else can go to he** is a liberatrian point of view. Property rights and personal freedom are valued over community cooperation.

The other mindset is that if someone plops a pink trailer on their property (which if done within the existing laws and codes, it may be their right to do), if so done without regard to the setting or the feelings or beliefs of the community in which they have plopped that pink trailer, constitutes an anti-social act, rights not withstanding. Social cooperation and the welfare of the community are valued over personal rights and freedoms.

There are consequences to each belief. The libertarian better get used to going it on their own or perhaps with a few of like beliefs. Lonely and vulnerable in my view. The communitarian will ocassionally get used or maybe even abused by their neighbors or strangers without manners or courtesy.

Who is to say who is right. I tend to fit in somewhere in the middle. I don't see this as a blck or white issue. I care deeply about my community and my neighborhood and I do consider their views before I act but I also resist undue influence by government entities on what I do with my home etc. I live where I "fit in".

With this said, it saddens me that a discussion on subjects such as nationalism, communitarianism and personal freedoms can't be held in a more civil tone on this list. I believe everyone has a right to their veiws and the right to discuss them openly without being flamed or belittled. Too often the public discourse over controversial subjects is conducted in broadcast or attack mode. It is not useful. Everyone is the sum of their experiences, and except for the truly insane, they have rational reasons for holding the views that they hold. There is something intellectually (if not a tactical advantage) to be gained by listening to and truly understanding the opposite points of view.

FWIW

-- Cathy (saddened@alaska.usa), February 21, 1999.