I didn't believe I'd EVER have to do something like this: http://www.valor.org/links/declaration.html

Link 1 Intro

Link 2 Advanced Course Choose your selection

Don't come back until you have read at least 2 from the Advanced Course. Take a good look at the checklist in the Intro course. Some of these are distressingly current! If many of these were written today, the author would be in jail very quickly! The reason these are on topic is we will have to have a foundation to build on. Build on sand and watch your house wash away. Build on this kind of rock and your house stands, until someone learns to tunnel. Chuck, who doesn't really believe this should be as neccessary as it is.

-- Chuck, night driver (rienzoo@en.com), February 19, 1999

Answers

Chuck, although I agree with you as to the need to re-introduce these documents, I think you will have a hard time finding the support you will need to make it work. Case in point is the last word in the Intro document. The men that wrote that document knew full well the meaning of that word, and acted.

Unfortunately, I don't think you will find enough people today with the same understanding of the meaning of that word to follow the lead of those men.

I'm with you, for what it's worth, but it's gonna be a hard, lonely road.

LP

-- LP (soldog@hotmail.com), February 19, 1999.

Well, I read http://www.jbs.org/y2k.htm.......

-- You can call me Zimmy (Talkin'John.Burch@paranoid.blues), February 19, 1999.

Chuck,

well done!

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), February 19, 1999.

And just how many of you bother to vote? Or whine about how 'my vote doesn't count'. Majority rules, but only the majority who bothers to vote. The guys who wrote most of these documents did not have that option.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), February 19, 1999.

Thanks Chuck, the valor site is great because of the collection.

While reading LPs response (which I hearilty agree with) I was struck by another, maybe, more fundamental problem. I am not bashing or generalizing when I say this, just reflecting on MY experiences out here in the world at large.

How many of the 18 yrs olds out there today can even READ those documents much less understand the words and meanings.

Yea, I know, a lot. But, equally on the other end of the spectrum there are a lot who can't. This tears me up.

This isn't one of the Bear sermons on education rather one of the Bears laments on our probable future.

There are tears enough for all in our future.

-- Greybear, with heart at half-mast for America

-God Help Us All

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 19, 1999.

Yeah, I know. most of the 18 - 25 ers who ARE functionally literate, as far as the current world is concerned, won't have a clue on some of the documents, due to the Biblical and Mythological referents. I happened to understand them when I was 18, but this is just one of the side benefits of a liberal Catholic Education.

As one of hte Xaverians used to say: "More's the pity!"

Chuck

-- Chuck, night driver (rienzoo@en.com), February 19, 1999.

My nephew recently turned 18 and came by to hit Unc up for a b'day present. He was admiring his haul when he held up a $100 bill. His exact words were "I need some more of these Whoever the hell that is"! He didn't know who Ben Franklin was but he does know the LA Crip gang sign. The boy is not stupid, they just don't teach anymore. I agree with Greybear, God help us all.

-- RB (R@AR.COM), February 19, 1999.

Chuck:
Great source.

Paul Davis:
Voting is a sham (Talking about Y2K computer problems, computers have been programmed to "fix" elections for years.)

Plus, the founders assumed that the voters would be a select (hopefully relatively intelligent and rational group) -- mainly male landholders. Not women (who are even more emotional vs rational than men -- boy am I gonna get flamed on this one!) and certainly not every idiot walking the streets.

I imagine the founders would not have resorted to revolution if playing the game by the established (mainstream promoted) rules of the time would have accomplished their purpose. That playing by the established rules of that time, and the rules of today, should be obvious that it didn't and doesn't work. So don't give me that "get out the vote and write your congressman" crap.

BTW, giving women the vote was supposed to create utopia. Since then, though, we've had two world wars and a big depression. Look at the "gender gap" in voting. Women much higher percent voted for Klinton. Is there a connection?

-- a (A@AisA.com), February 19, 1999.

To clarify my "female voting bashing":

Benjamin Franklin said,
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Women are much more security conscious than men; this expresses itself in voting. No doubt this republic would have crashed anyway -- all do eventually, but it probably has all the faster because of the female vote.

-- a (A@AisA.com), February 19, 1999.

Chuck,

Only thing missing is a link to 'the price they paid'. Had seen it at one time, think Capt Nemo or someone like that had it - wonder if that's the nemo I see posting here sometimes. Do you have it and is it historically correct?

jh

-- john hebert (jt_hebert@hotmail.com), February 19, 1999.

Ummmmmm Color me Cory errr Clueless. The Price They Paid?????

CR

-- Chuck, night driver (rienzoo@en.com), February 20, 1999.

A: you've gotta be kidding about women being more security conscious then men. The moment you try to slam one gender, religion, race, perception, political persuasion, or favorite ball team, you've lost the argument. While women may show their need for security in a different way than men, that certainly doesn't mean they're more or less conscious of it them men. Have you ever tried to talk to the men around you about the possibility that y2k may cause a few changes to their lives. Unless you have a far different set of friends than most of us, it takes about 25 polite seconds of listening before they get a glazed, panicked look on their faces and they start coughing nervously into their fists... Point being, stop blaming someone else for the downfall of the world, and admit that it is a variety of corruptions, wrong choices, complacencies, and would be power grabbers that wil be our downfall, not whether women vote or not.

-- Damian Solorzano (oggy1@webtv.net), February 20, 1999.

"How many of the 18 yrs olds out there today can even READ those documents much less understand the words and meanings."

To make things worse, this engineered illiteracy makes them more susceptable to the influence of those who would rewrite history with politicly slanted ideas that turn our heros into villans, America into a Great Satan, and Americans into oppressive imperialists.

With the decline of literacy, so goes the decline of ethics and truth. What makes it worse, is that it was done deliberately.

LP - whose 5th box is always full and clean.

-- LP (soldog@hotmail.com), February 20, 1999.

Chuck,

I'll try to find it later, I've seen it as author unkown. It was posted on the company bulletin board where I worked a few years back and I found it on the net a while ago. But between changing internet service providers, browsers and all I lost it. It gave an account of what became of the signers of the Declaration - i.e. the price they paid.

jh

-- john hebert (jt_hebert@hotmail.com), February 20, 1999.

Chuck, Found it, if my hotlink attempt is misguided, I'll try to learn from my mistakes.

http://home.ric a.net/CaptainNemo/free/price.htm

jh

-- john hebert (jt_hebert@hotmail.com), February 22, 1999.

Thanks for the link, Jon. The really disgusting thing is to find that only 50 people have gone to that link since july of last year.

C

-- Chuck, night driver (rienzoo@en.com), February 23, 1999.

Chuck, excellent site for resource and edification. Thank you.

"With the decline of literacy, so goes the decline of ethics and truth. What makes it worse, is that it was done deliberately."

I think it was done deliberately. However, perhaps for a different reasons and not purposely.

I think one reason is greed.

I've seen older generations loot the financial base that supported their own personal education. I'm not saying this was done to directly damage the younger generations. Yet, one specific reason I have heard personally is because they didn't feel they needed to contribute to educating children anymore when their children were already fully grown and through the system. Interestingly ironic because people who I've heard express these opinions are constantly talking about the importance of Social Security.

In our society we teach this ethic constantly, "Get the money! Get the money! Get the money!"

If there are generations of children who cannot read or understand history or the papers that formed the base for this democracy then it's a direct reflection on our society and our misplaced values. If we want our society to be truthful and ethical then we should start with ourselves. If we want communities that share and contribute to each other then we should start with ourselves. Isn't it time we stop shifting blame and take on some responsibility?

Mike =================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), February 23, 1999.