Some of us are absolutly forced to stay in mid-sized cities. If stuff gets really bad what can we do to defend our home against bands of looters and maurauders? We got guns and ammo a plenty, but need adivce for combat in an urban enviornment. I was thinking of getting some barbed wire to ring around our home for after Jan.1 but I'm afraid that that would just draw attention to us for those that would be after our food. I was also thinking plywood for the windows but those won't stop a bullet. The only other thing I can think of is to dig a bunker in our front yard(deep foxhole with sandbags and some sort of covering) but don't know how this would work out. Any ideas? My city has about 180K people in it.

-- Any urban war tactics? (need@stratagy.com), February 15, 1999

Answers

The best thing to do is to keep a very low profile and make your house look as uninviting and unworthy of looting as possible. Barbed wire is not a good idea because it indicates you have something of value to protect. If the power grid goes down, make one room your light room at night and keep the others dark, then put up some kind of light barrier on the light room window.

You might consider putting up heavy shutters inside the house to be closed and locked at night. If you have a woodstove, don't bank it down so low that it smokes a lot because the smoke will draw attention, particularly in the daytime.

-- cody varian (cody@y2ksurvive.com), February 15, 1999.

The best way to protect you home is to board up the windows with plywood or chipboard and scatter broken glass around your windows to make it look like your home already got ransacked. Buy the plywood now and cut to size and number each piece and have everything ready to install with a screwdriver. This is what we did during the second world war in europe and nobody bothered us, EVER!!!

-- Freddie the Freeloader (freddie@aol.com), February 15, 1999.

not to restate the obvious, but everybody has to sleep sometime - the critical issue here is to avoid trying to go this alone, if at all possible. is there any chance of organizing your neighbors into a neighborhood watch, etc?

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), February 15, 1999.

Blackberry bushes planted around the perimeter of your house is a good deterrent for thieves, also pyracantha or climbing roses. Put gravel around the perimiter of your house, you can hear someone walking on it. Fire retard your roof just in case someone decides to throw a malatov cocktail on your roof. For your fence around your house, there's strips of jagged spears (they put them on roof tops to keep birds off eaves), that you can nail on top of the fence. If someone puts their hand on one of those strips they'll think twice about jumping over your fence. Carpet tacking will work too. There is safety in numbers. Remember the Rodney King riots and the Korean store owners were defending their stores? They had fire power and that in itself was a deterrent. Good Luck.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), February 15, 1999.

Thanks for the idea Freddie. I went to Home Depot to pick up a solar powered motion sensor floodlight and the clerk said they can't keep them in stock. Been out of them for past 2 months. Should have bought it in December when I saw them. But maybe it is a good thing I didn't get one. The light may draw looters like flies. I would still like to rig up a solar powered or battery powered motion detection buzzer or bell of some kind. I am thinking of 4-6 motion detectors hooked up to a doorbell or some other type of indoor alarm. Any ideas on how to rig something like this up?

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), February 15, 1999.

Me and the Mrs. have decided to burn down our house if it gets that bad. Then everybody will think it's not useful anymore, and move on.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), February 15, 1999.

Also, reinforce specific spots that you can use to engage targets should the need arise. Get some 2x4 foot pieces of scrap steel and attach them to the walls, if it appears that it'll take the weight. You need at least 1/2" of steel, 3/4" is preferred.

Solid cover will be essential. Also, get some real body armor (not flak jackets); it might save you from a pistol or shotgun round; most city dwellers won't have rifles. A Kevlar helmet would be nice (gun show/mail order; less than $100).

Get a Surefire flashlight (police useage mostly); they're extremely bright. Attach it to the firearm you plan to use; you can simultaneously ID and blind any potential target. It gives you an advantage. I use one on my rifle, and at 5-10 yard distances, it's damn blinding in dim light. Make sure that you move once you've used it though, as it shows where you are.

Make sure that you have as many armed defenders as you can arrange for, and get some walkie talkies to coordinate the defense. Use prearranged code words to specify what you want to do, and assume that someone is listening; don't talk in plain english.

You might look into improvising some kind of noise maker; something to let you know that someone is prowling nearby. Try the snap-caps that kids use (the ones that you throw down onto a hard object). Put them under debris/some kind of covering. When someone steps on them, you'll hear it. Broken glass is a good deterrent too; it's noisy to walk on, and you don't want to go prone on it. :) Fish line with mousetraps that activate a alarm bell, or noisemaker would be useful too.

There are numerous military manuals that are available; if you want more ideas, e-mail me and maybe I can arrange to get you some additional info.

-- Bill (billclo@hotmail.com), February 15, 1999.

Bill,

Feb.2 I posted a thread titled American Science and Surplus it includes their web address they have a selection of those alarms you were talking about, and the prices are good. (I don't own the place or work there) They have a little of every thing.

-- Deborah the Prophetess (coolstuff@science.com), February 15, 1999.

Could you repost or email me the URL? I was unable to locate the message you referred to. Thanks alot, and I'll look into that site.

-- Bill (billclo@hotmail.com), February 16, 1999.

get a dog

-- dave (wootendave@hotmail.com), February 16, 1999.

Get a bullet-p[roof dog.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), February 16, 1999.

Someone mentioned not letting the wood stove damp too low....along those lines, hubby and I have decided to stock up on blankets for all of us and heavy duty blanket sleepers for the four year old and plan on keeping each other warm at first, as smoke coming out of the fireplace means, "Come HERE!" In other words, we will not even start a fire in the fireplace unless we are freezing to death or the worst of the civil unrest is over. BTW, we live in a suburb of Dallas so we can get away with this. I know some people in the burbs who are buying generators for crying out loud. Yeah, that's what I want--all the damn lights on in my house when everyone else's are out!

The plywood on the windows is a good idea....we have bought a bunch of 6 mil black polyethylene film to darken the windows but I like the idea of the broken glass in the front yard..

Hey how bout a sign in the front yard that says:

"OCCUPIED AND HEAVILY ARMED WE SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS NEVER"

Think that'll do it? STaying LOw

-- staying low (stayinglow@burbs.com), February 16, 1999.

Bill, Who ever gave you the idea that city dwellers don't have rifles? We live in a midd size city and our whole neigborhood is armed and ready. we bought rifles and shotguns ( for those who don't know how to aim :-)) and we bought them BEFORE registration was a must and we bought them 2nd and 3rd hand. Also a lot of innercity dwellers are better armed then you think. rickjohn

-- rickjohn (rickjohn1@yahoo.com), February 16, 1999.

If they are determined, then you can't.

Best you can do is make your home too thorny to bother with. Literally and figuritivly.

First on the list is get the neighbors involved if you can. A street with baricades set up and armed guards on duty will get passed by for easier pickings.

Next make your house painful to be near. Bushes and shrubs that 'discourage' playful interaction. I have an Osage orange tree in my backyard that has one inch inward curving thorns on it all year round. Sticking your arm in that is a silly way to end up needing stitches. You MAY not get your arm back without help.

Put an 'ornamental' fence in front of your door. The idea is to stop anyone from getting a straight run at it and not allow them to gang up for a rush in. Same with large windows.

Get a large dog. Most thugs are afraid of them. Notice that police entry teams always place a high priority on controling any animals ASAP, even if they have to shoot them. A good dog is worth his food.

Show a presence. Investigate noises, but not always the same way. You want it known that you won't let anything pass without checking (armed) but you don't want an attentive bad guy to use that knowlege to draw you out. One time you peek out a window, next time you turn on lights, next time you come around side of house with shotgun, next time you release the dog to check. Vary the response, but respond. Once in a while leave no obvious sign you responded...let them wonder.

When you work outside have someone obviously on guard. If you have the people then have a not obvious guard too. Have simple hand signals. The signal to shoot the person nearest to you can be raising your hands at your sides. The all clear signal can be wiping sweat off your face.

Fortifications are not hard and need not be obvious.

E-mail me if you need more ideas.

-- Art Welling (artw@lancnews.infi.net), February 16, 1999.

We live within driving distance of two of the 120 cities that were on the most dangerous "to be in" list. We also live in a highly developed tourist area that has attracted many creepy crawlers. Our one near neighbor is unprepared and in fragile health. Our other near neighbor is a renter, planning to move. I feel isolated and vulnerable, although we have dogs and guns. Thorny bushes take awhile to grow and moving is not an option. Ideas please??

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), February 16, 1999.

Put up a sign that sez: "TRASPASSERS WILL BE EATEN".

-- -------------- (----------@---------.com), February 16, 1999.

Rick John,

The statement that I made about most city dwellers not having rifles is obviously a generalized statement. I made it because in my experience, most large-city residents have shotguns and pistols. Obvioustly, some do have rifles, but in my experience at a large indoor pistol range/gun store lead me to think that rifles weren't all that common among the big-city folk.

From what I understand, most large cities, especially in the East, because of the lack of facilities to shoot rifles, kinda discourage rifle use. Shotguns are frequently allowed at pistol ranges.

Certainly some city folk will have them, but I don't expect to see as many as you would way out in the country. That's all I meant.

-- Bill (billclo@hotmail.com), February 16, 1999.

If your home is TOO well booby-trapped, fire-fighters might be inclined to watch it burn from a safe distance. Just a thought.

-- just (being@paranoid.now), February 16, 1999.

Two posts mentioned something that done together, makes a very good home protection item. The plywood covered windows was one idea, and someone else mentioned the idea of steel plate against the inside walls. Don't forget to put some of that plating up against the inside of the plywood covered windows and doors. Brace it up against the windows with wood 2x4's, preferably wedged against the opposite wall.

For what it's worth, if you can find 1/4 inch steel plate in 4 ft x 8 ft sheets, it's great stuff. I found mine at a salvage yard that speaclizes in buying excess stock from maunfacturing plants and fabrication shops. Buying new stock from suppliers would put anyone except Bill Gates into the poorhouse. Salvage yards can save you a lot of cash on these types of materials.

And don't overlook the idea of lining your inside walls with sandbags. Go two rows deep if you can but, as a minumum one row of sandbags piled high enough that you can walk behind it without having to crouch too low is what you need. Back it up with plywood sheets to keep the bags up tight against the wall and you've got pretty good protection against incoming rounds. Two rows of bags should stop most, if not all commonly available rounds.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), February 16, 1999.

Wildweasel,

The idea of steel plate was mine. I'm in the process of locating some plate to harden specific points of the home, and have decided that: 1) the plate needs to be 2x4 sheets, as I can't lift much more than that without getting a hernia, nor fit it in the vehicle. :) 2) It's definitely too expensive to buy the material new. A surplus yard locally is a must.

I have been unable to locate sandbags for a reasonable price anywhere, and there is one other problem with them: they are HEAVY, and 2 layers is probably too much for most floors to take. Most are 10" wide, and that one layer alone will stop most small arms fire, especially if you have cinderblock in front of it. Now, one layer won't stop .308 AP, .30-06AP, but you're not likely to run across that very often either.

-- Bill (billclo@hotmail.com), February 16, 1999.

Ok, i am calm now, and will remain so for now.

Excuse me but, can you people hear your selves??? Steel plating in my house??? SAnd BAGS??? WHAT THE HELl is wrong with YOU IDIOTS???? Why AM i nOT hearingg ABOUT MORTARS???? 105MM LOng toMS??? WHat kinD OF A MORON TRies to defend his HOUSE WITHOUT CLAYMORES??????? IDIOTS!!! I hoPe that YOU HAve nAPAlm and some Air SUPPORT!1!!! AND i ANm A PsyCHO??? lOOK IN THE MIRROOR AT WHAT YOU FOOLS ARE talking abOUT!!! WHERE IS DISCUSSIoNs ABOUT Pungi STicks??? Are YOU REinfORCING YOU're roof WITH CONCRETE??? NO??? WHy??? YOU may DIE WITHOUT IT, WHY No threads About THAt???? Do you have ATUNNEL Leading to a AMBUSH AREA To Kill the interlopers???? CHILDREN!!!!

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), February 16, 1999.

ALSO Have forrgotten::

I H-A-T-E Y-O-U-!-!-!-!

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), February 16, 1999.

Just bought some 30.06 AP, just in case Dieter drives upto my house in an APV. Looking forward to punching some holes through some heavy metal this coming weekend.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), February 16, 1999.

Dieter, don't be a moron, you troll. Go away.

-- Bill (billclo@hotmail.com), February 16, 1999.

How many inches of New York Times or LA Times (newspaper) bundled would it take to stop 30-06? Stack vertically. If find no need for the bundles, then can roll and tie them (as someone else suggested) to make "firewood" logs.

-- A (A@AisA.com), February 17, 1999.

Bundles of newspapers as "sandbags" is an interesting idea. Besides slowing down incoming rounds, there would be a definite insulation value, too. How thick the bundle needs to be is an interesting question. I've seen demos of two thick phone books stopping 9mm and 45ACP at point-blank range with pages to spare. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say a tight bundle twelve inches thick is a starting point.

Obviously some "field experimentation" is called for. Anyone in "good weather country" need an excuse to go to the range?

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), February 17, 1999.

I will take care of that this weekend. Armor piercing 30.06 from 20 yards? We'll take out some phone books and newspapers. I'll post the results on Sunday. Paper may not be a good defense for tracer rounds.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), February 17, 1999.

uh, guys...I think Dieter may have a point this time. Art's advice to

" Have simple hand signals. The signal to shoot the person nearest to you can be raising your hands at your sides. The all clear signal can be wiping sweat off your face. "

could lead to some unintended and pretty disastrous situations.

-- a (a@a.a), February 17, 1999.

Y2kHippo,

Make sure that you also test those .30-06 AP rds at 200 yards. Most military FMJ/AP ammo has maximum penetration at 200+ yards, so just a test at 20 yards will not give accurate results. Try 50 yards, and then compare results from 200-300 yards. You may be suprised at the INCREASE in penetration on the longer range test media.

Let us know how it works out.

-- BIll (billclo@hotmail.com), February 18, 1999.

We'll do. I feel the 50 yard test will be the true test of the paper bunker. A 200 yard shot would be a block away in my neihborhood. I anticipate most defensive action to be within 25 yards of my house, so I bought another 200 rounds of 00 buck today. You can't beat the 12 gauge shotgun for a defensive weapon, plus a 12 gauge slug will punch through most anything you can put in front of it.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), February 19, 1999.

Max range that someone may be shooting at your house depends on your area. My area, 200 yards is very possible. In the inner city, not likely. 50-100 yards is most likely range in most areas, I'd say.

Did you read what I posted in the "I built a rifle" thread from a few days ago regarding the reasons a shotgun is less than optimum for combat purposes? If not, I can repost it here for you. You ought to rethink your choice. Too many disadvantages to make it the best choice.

Most 12ga slugs won't even penetrate 1/4" steel, so don't go and think that you have an armor-puncher there. My .223's will go right through 3/8" and almost exit 1/2" steel, and that's with a short barrelled gun (11 1/2"). Try it versus an old car door (not the new cars, but an older one that has thicker metal). See if you're still impressed, and let us know what results you got.

-- Bill (billclo@hotmail.com), February 19, 1999.

I have an SKS and the 30.06 if I need to punch through steel, but In my back yard or home I should only have to punch through flesh. With a vest on an intruder would still have their face exposed, and that is why a 12 gauge with 00 buck is my home defense choice. Head shots in a high stress situation will be easier with the 9 pellets .32 cal in size from the 00 shell. I know your .223 will go through the vest but depending on where it hits they may be able to shoot back. I prefer two or three pellets to the head, tends to ruin ones day. I always like to increase odds in my favor.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), February 19, 1999.

Only 2-3 pellets to the head? Why so few? Oh, must be because you expect to miss with most of the pellets.

I think that you may be operating under the impression that if you have a shotgun, you don't have to aim. At typical household ranges, the shot hasn't spread enough to help with the aim much. Say, 5 yard shot. At that distance, pattern is about 3-4" wide. If you took a snapshot, you still run a substantial probability of a miss, or only getting a couple of pellets on target. And probably only a graze at that. If you took the time to aim and get a nice centered hit, which is what you want, you had time to aim with a rifle.

I'm just concerned that people are in love with shotguns, and don't realize their shortcomings. There are alot of disadvantages that can cost you alot of time in combat, or even get you killed.

Plus, if you have to leave the house, are you going to take all 3 long arms with you? SKS, .30-06, shotgun? If not, you risk arming a looter. I'd rather have one long gun to carry, personally.

You also won't have your crystal ball handy to tell you what gun to have for a specific set of circumstances. If you have that shotgun, and a guy who attacking you has taken cover behind a lousy car door, oops, time to switch to slugs, since buckshot usually won't penetrate both sides of a car door (depends on range and load). With a .223/7.62x39, etc, you just shoot.

Your gun needs to be able to handle any forseeable set of challenges, and I'm sorry to say that the shotgun doesn't cut it:

1) Wont penetrate body armor, typically, even level II-a pistol stuff. 2) Ammo is heavy and bulky. 6-8/lb versus 30/lb for 7.62x39, or 38- 40/lb for .223. 3) Buckshot is much less reliable for multi-pellet hitting at even 25 yards, let alone 50 yards. 4) Heavy recoil slows down followup shots. 5) Low ammunition capacity, typically 5-9 shots, even with extended tube mag. May not be enough in close encounters at close range with several opponents.

6) Slow reload time. I can personally drop a mag and put in a fresh one on my rifle in under 5 seconds. Try reloading an empty or low tube mag and see how much longer it takes.

7) Awkward to reload prone.

8) Lack of flexibility, reloading wise. If you are engaging a close range target, say 15 yards, and you see the need to engage a 75 yard guy who is shooting at you, buckshot won't work reliably (ALL luck). You then need to empty the chamber, and add slugs to the tube mag and chamber. It's even worse if the tube mag is nearly full and you then need to remove rounds, then reload with slugs. Takes waaaay too long. He could run up on you with a rock, or a lousy .22 pistol and do you while you're occupied.

9) If the shotgun is a pump gun, you have the added risk that under stress, you will forget to pump the action, or even worse, short stroke it and jam the action. Even trained police officers do this; ask any police trainer, or a more honest cop. Auto shotgun takes away this problem obviously.

10) Try shooting the shotgun with your offhand. Recoil makes it much harder.

Suppose that the guy who is attacking your house has seen how poorly his fellows have done. He then gets some lousy 1/8" steel and makes himself a shield, just like he sees the cops use. Your buckshot won't penetrate it, and the slug is unlikely to. Whoops. Time to reach for that rifle. :) Hope you make it in time.

-- Bill (billclo@hotmail.com), February 19, 1999.

I agree with most of your points regarding the use of a battle rifle vs. a shotgun in a battle. I am mostly concerned with my front and backyard, plus the entery points of my house. Most unwelcome activity will be at night in low light situations. Assuming your unwanted visitor has a weapon, the trick will be to get the first shot to count. At 15 yards, I have a 12-18 inch pattern with my shotgun (very forgiving for poor shots or poor conditions) One shot (3-6 00 pellets hitting) to the chest cavity or head will stop anyone cold. If hoards of looters head toward my house, block or town, I would grab the SK and my two 30 round clips.

I look at guns the same way I do golf clubs, different ones for different situations. I don't chip with my driver, and I won't use my 30.06 in the house. Low light, around the house my shotgun is still first choice.(I do have a 9mm for real close up situations)

Let's hope we don't have to use them.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), February 20, 1999.

And there we were, two againest 100, and they killed us both.

If someone wants in, they are in.

-- fenceman (defcon@world.net), February 20, 1999.

Well I took the 30.06 with AP rounds out today. That is one nasty round of ammunition. At 35-40 yards it went through a 1 inch steel truck brake drum and tried to keep going through the other side (about a half inch penitration). I would not want to be hiding behind anything with that AP round heading toward me! Went through wood, phone books, an old washing maching that someone dumped where we shoot. Nothing short of 2 inch steel will stop it.

I shot the brake drum with a 12 gauge slug and it made a small indentation about 1/8 of an inch deep. The slugs will punch through car steel, wood, etc... But if you have a 30.06 get some armor piercing rounds. Most are corosive so you have to clean your rifle after shooting them. I have to zero in my scope, so I didn't try to hit it from 200+ yards. I'll try next time.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), February 21, 1999.

Glad to see that you tested the .30-06 and 12ga slugs. That AP ammo is damn ugly, isn't it? :) One of my old military ammunition manuals lists the .30-06 AP as piercing 1/2" of hardened armor steel, and I'd bet that it easily punches through 3/4-7/8 mild steel too. Luckily not too many guys will have it.

There are several companies that sell AP ammo that uses the old WWII era AP slugs, and is reloaded to use modern powders and primers. Not too expensive either. Check Shotgun News.

Do you have a light for your longarm, so that 1) you can id your target, 2) blind them while you engage them, 3) makes it a helluva lot easier to see the sights? I have a Surefire light attached to my CAR-15, and it is terribly bright; any person who has that shined in their eyes won't see crap for a few seconds. I've tried to use a flashlight in the off hand, and it doesn't work well. Neither does duct taping one to the forend, although it works in pinch.

Fenceman:

Sure, if you are badly outnumbered, and they want in, they're in. Best case is to bug out in such a situation. If you can't, next best is to make them pay dearly. Example: WACO. Once the ATF had 20% casualties (16 of 80 or so men wounded/killed), they retreated. And this was with semi-trained goons, not totally untrained criminals.

If you can make them pay enough, they may decide to try another place, or they mat retreat to try again later. Bug out then, before they come back, or get some additional defenders and hurt them more the next time.

Now, which gun is better to make them pay dearly with, a bolt rifle, a shotgun, or a semi-auto rifle with 30-rd mags and SP ammo? :)

-- Bill (billclo@hotmail.com), February 21, 1999.

You guys are watching "Night of the Living Dead" too often. Hundreds of starving looters? (Maybe in NYC or some other urban shithole) Most of my defensive stratagy involves 1-5 men trying to steal from my yard or home. If squads of troops come knocking looking for guns or food and you resist, you and your family are dead (Waco/Ruby Ridge, etc...). Then the best defense is to cache weapons and food. Some of my food storage will be off site come November/December. Water, ammo, guns and other supplies will be out of site. The only things I will have visible will be some firewood and my garden come spring.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), February 22, 1999.

Guns -- limitations, new:

Administration proposes expanded effort to trace illegal guns

-- guns minus more (less@lesser.none), February 22, 1999.

We have three German Shepherds and two Dobermans, but they will not be in the line of fire. I'm a policeman and the GSD's are protection trained.... one is my K9 partner. I'm better trained at handling gun fire than they are. Dogs will be the first to be shot by mauraders. They WILL be my alert system, however. But, I will be ready with my other weapons to protect my home. As will my family who is being trained at the moment how to use them.

I've seen other forums discussing buying and using dogs for protection... please don't do this... What if food runs out??? Are you going to chow down on them when you can no longer feed them??? or turn them loose in the streets to forage for themselves and terrorize the populace?? only to be killed one way or another??? How thoughtless.

Lots of other excellent advice here. I'm also a retired military vet so agree with a lot said.

-- Dog Handler (Handler@cop.net), April 06, 1999.

Find a dead body and attach him to a stake in front of your house. Like Count Dracula did. It works quite well to deter people from visiting...

-- Hmmm (GeeWhiz@huh.what), April 07, 1999.

I hope that most of the posters on this thread ARN'T on my block. You'll shot thru who ever and into my shack. I may need to preclear.

-- disapointed (you@nu.ts), April 07, 1999.

bill,

www.sciplus.com (sorry it took so long :-) hope they still have the stuff, their inventory is constantly changing.

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), April 07, 1999.

Geezus you guys. Great advice. If you live in East L.A. Otherwise a lot of excited planning for a war in your head that you'd better hope doesn't come to your door -- and if it does, might only because you've set yourself up for it.

Scenario: A local police officer politely asks to enter your home and look around. No, you say, standing behind 3/4 steel fastened over plywood nailed in front of windows and supported by sandbags, as you walkie talkie and hand-signal your family SWAT team into logistic positions in the pecan trees around the house.

He insists, because it's his job, and since you live in Normal-ville instead of East L.A. for example he's crazy enough to keep doing it. Other local authorities offer him some degree of back up which you know is armed. He is just looking, he says, they want to centralize what may be available in your neighborhood so it can be distributed more equally to all.

Apparently choice of people here: Blow away everybody. Hide in your house and hope you have more bullets than anybody else. Hope if you shoot enough people in uniform nobody will send a tank to your house because hey, the tanks are all busy in East L.A.

Choice of anybody with a brain: Hide your main supplies, but work starting now and continuing then with local authorities to do anything you can to HELP your neighborhood, and by helping your neighborhood, create for yourself an alert system far better than a dog in your backyard could be.

I am sorry to be such a rag tonight -- it's 2:10 am, I'm still at work (obviously not working!) maybe that's part of it -- but for some reason, despite that I honestly do appreciate advice on protection, firearms etc. and I do understand the wisdom of some of this -- but it suddenly just seems clear to me how shortsighted we can all be.

Fine, shoot everybody. Hope you never need any kind of assistance, medicine, etc. from your neighbors whom you hid from and aimed your laser scope at when they brought their kids over to ask if you had water. Humanity lives in groups for good reason. Eventually, you're going to need something. And as a friend of mine succinctly put it, "...and then the assholes who expected everybody ELSE to be assholes (a little projection?) will end up the only ones acting like it in a time of crisis in most communities. And the same guys so worried that the whole world will want to shoot them, so they plan to shoot first, will end up being shot for being an asshole."

In ALL the discussion on this board, in ALL the conversation about preparing for your family's food, defense, and general needs, in EVEN the comments from people who feel they are mostly done now, having gotten the main things in place they feel they need, why is there no -- none -- nada -- zip -- zero -- not ONE DAMN THREAD about acting like a decent human being, a contributor to your society worth letting live, and doing something to prepare others and/or prepare to assist others when that time comes in any way you can? I am not talking about trying to feed Atlanta. It's hard enough planning to feed one's family. I am talking about trying to make it possible for at least your neighbors to survive with you, even if they are the same ones who don't believe you now.

Most people would rather sit back in an armed hut and shoot anybody who comes to the door than make the smallest effort to help another human being. Why is that. It reminds me of the saying that the same people who will organize whole conferences on the environment won't stoop over to pick up a gum wrapper.

I would rather garden like a maniac and store everything I can and hope I can help my neighbors if they need it. I have a dog which will take one bullet to finish. But even in a midsized (200K and under) city, people on any given block can get to know each other in a time of need -- and get to know intruders and strangers. I can't believe I feel the urge to tell all these grown men the parable of the father, his sons, and the twigs which broke easily separated but when wrapped into a bundle couldn't be broken. If you are trapped in one location, you are not mobile, the greatest safety is in the numbers of your compatriots.

I'm not an altruist. Quite the opposite. I'm a realist. What really appalls me is the degree of semi-sociopathic conscienceless tunnel-vision that "GI's" for Y2K so often have. Put some humane in humanity for godssake. Maybe some of that stocking up for enough weaponry to shoot everybody in your city could be put toward stocking up for enough food to at least feed one neighbor.

Don't want to shock anybody by suggesting somebody be a decent human being. How politically incorrect of me.

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 08, 1999.

PJ,

I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you, but you've simply not read enough of the archives if you've not found the threads and discussions that you complain are missing from this forum.

There are a lot of comments and rants from those who have the mistaken idea that their 12 gauge shotgun will intimidate anyone that they should be afraid of, but those folks have their minds made up and obviously accept at least one inaccurate idea (that a 12 gauge shotgun is the answer), so it seems likely that they will accept others.

Personally, I view such comments as "noise" and tune it out to the best of my ability, since there is not much else that I can do.

What I can do (and have done), are the things that you write of; I have accumulated enough food that I can feed some indeterminate number of people (besides my family) until the garden may be harvested. I have acquired, prepared (vacuum sealed) non-hybrid seeds to the extent that I can experience crop failure two years running and still have fresh seed for the third year (if it gets to that point, we're in very deep kim-chee). I am a member of a group of concerned neighbors who have coordinated our efforts vis a vis Y2K and who are preparing as well as we can for whatever we can imagine "might" come our way.

Look through the archives and pay particular attention to posts from Diane Squire. She has been advocating the spirit and practice of "community" as long as I've been on this forum. She is not alone; she is simply the brightest star in that constellation.

You're not alone either, PJ. There are many of us here that feel as you do and have said so in print. Hang in there! For better or worse, we're all in this together.

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), April 08, 1999.

Hardliner --- agree 100%; same is true of our efforts and many others on this forum. There is a place for prudent thinking about defense (duh) but let's leave it at that.

IMO, it remains true that anyone in an urban area that *thinks* they have to prepare for any sort of Mad Max strategy should long since have made plans to scram from the city before Y2K hits. That is "x" times safer from the start than simulating some sort of film noir urban guerilla defense.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), April 08, 1999.

Yes, I've missed many threads and I do apologize for that. I'm glad to hear that IS in here somewhere.

Psychologically, I can only deal with Y2K conversation in pieces, which have to be separated by enough time to pull my face out of that sucking tunnel vision that fear and uncertainty and survival based obsession can bring on.

(That's okay. Now I'm actually more worried about war, nukes, et al. than Y2K. I feel so much better.)

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 09, 1999.

hey,you crazy nutbags,go to loomponics.com or paladin press.com,look for books by Ragnar Benson.he's got (very high quality)books on survival poaching,home construction of flame throwers,rifle mounted grenade launchers and grenades,plastique and blastingcaps,napalm,mortars and tubes,clamore mines,and of course gun cascheing and gun-running for fun and profit.go for it fellow- babies,freak the f**k out.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), May 07, 1999.