What is baseline preparedness?

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This is my personal basic concerns list: shelter, water, fire, food, and waste disposal.

This is easy enough for me to satisfy.

However, before I invest energy to enhance or prepare beyond my basic concerns, I have to ask each of my neighbors this question,

"How will your neighbors satisfy these basic concerns?"

If your neighbors aren't prepared, you aren't prepared.

And I don't like what I see in Wilmington, North Carolina

-- Critt Jarvis (critt@critt.com), February 14, 1999


I have repeatedly stated that individual preparedness is moot in populated areas. If you live in a populated area and have prepared, even well, it is MEANINGLESS, if the surrounding population is unprepared.

Suppose that yout town actually prepared by stocking up food and supplies. Still moot. If it is surrounded by a bunch of other unprepared towns, where do you think all those unprepared people will congregate? That's right. Your town. Like moths to a flame.

You must get out of populated areas. Period.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), February 14, 1999.

Good point Critt. No one has completed their preps until they've worked on community prep.

By the way Critt. If I was in Wilmington, I'd buy me a big seine and a gill net. The other good thing about Wilminton is you can dig a hole with your shovel anywhere and hit fresh water even if you don't live near the river. We did it all the time as kids just for the heck of it.

If things were to get bad, I might pack my mess up and head to Morehead City. I could live on pinfish if I had to. They're not that bad.

-- Puddintame (dit@dot.com), February 14, 1999.

Paul, I do not disagree with what you have posted, but my experience tells me that such unpopulated places are few and far between east of the Miss. In North Carolina the only such places are in the northeastern part of the state around the Dismal Swamp and also some inaccessible spots in the mountains, but you'd need to be some kind of Special Forces type guy to live in those areas.

Farm country may look quiet and uninhabited, but it's got all the problems of the city, it's just that those problems are more spread out and the casual traveler doesn't see them. (You may not be talking about farm country Paul, but I think that's what most people picture when they think about buggin-out.)

-- Puddintame (dit@dot.com), February 14, 1999.

Critt: Are your neighbors aware of Y2K and are they prepared? If they don't have a clue and you have tried to warn them, then you have to assume that they will be knocking on your door WTSHTF. Are you prepared to take care of the neighborhood? If not, then you have to be prepared to tell them to get lost. If you tell them to get lost, they all may decide to ban together and over take your house. Are you prepared for that scenario? They can burn you out, come armed ready to shoot you (funny what hunger does to people), or what until your asleep and take what they think belongs to them. Are YOU prepared to defend your home and family, and could you shoot your neighbor? These are hard questions to think about, but they could become a reality. What could your neighbors bring to the party? What are their survival skills, and what could they possibly offer you to ensure your safety and survival. If the answer is none, then you better lock and load and "home invasion," proof your home.

"Anyone liivng within 5 miles of Burger King, will be hamburger." Bardou

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), February 14, 1999.

Puddin', You're so full of crap your eyes are brown.

Anyone who wnats to get out of a populated area and who has the resources to do so, can EASILY find a safe place. EASILY. I know that 99% of the population will remain where it is. I could not care less. That is their problem.

To remain in a populated area is suicidal.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), February 14, 1999.


Your right on about fresh water. I can take a spade to any spot in my yard, dig a hole, and be scooping water within a few minutes time.

And, though I don't like to fish when it's cold, I know how to be successful at that, too.


You're right. If the surrounding population isn't prepared, then my preparation is meaningless.

So, if I can spark the surrounding population to be able to maintain a basic level of living, then my personal preparations have meaning. Does this sound right to you?

-- Critt Jarvis (critt@critt.com), February 14, 1999.


The hard answer is 'no'. I do not believe that enough of the population ANYWHERE **AND** the surrounding areas will prepare enough.

I am not hedging in the least when I say that abandonning a populated area is the ONLY smart way to go.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), February 14, 1999.

Then why did you give out your address Milne? Here is this guy who bugged out in 93, all filled up with everything, and stashes GOLD! And you know where he lives and he is so far back in the sticks that the cops will never even hear about it. If I had your worries, I would move.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), February 14, 1999.


I understand your position and your choice. If I had the means, I probably would consider including a remote hidey-hole in my planning.

However, after a 5 month "Y2K sabattical" (trying to give that block of time some dignity), I'm just starting back to work tomorrow. Financially, I'm locked in.

And I'm okay with that.

So, now I go back to one of my earlier queries: How can I be a neighbor worth saving?

-- Critt Jarvis (critt@critt.com), February 14, 1999.

In answer to the following vomit from davis:

Then why did you give out your address Milne? Here is this guy who bugged out in 93, all filled up with everything, and stashes GOLD! And you know where he lives and he is so far back in the sticks that the cops will never even hear about it. If I had your worries, I would move.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), February 14, 1999.

First of all, I was addressing Critt when you insinuated yourself. Second of all, nothing that I do is any of your business unless I make it so. Additionally, I do not own a single ounce of Gold nor silver. Another case of a pathetic liar who knows nothing and assumes everything, making an ass of himself once again.

Davis, you are an idiot. You always have been and you always will be.

As far as my address is concerned, I am so far out in the boonies that I defy you to try to find me even WITH my address, you simpleton. Then, IF you could even make it out here under the conditions of Y2K, TRY to get in here.


davis, you get more stupud every day.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), February 14, 1999.

Time is running out. These cute answers have got to go. I suggest answers to only to those asking questions that are useful. I have gained a lot from this forum. Others can gain useful information if those who are in the KNOW post replies that are HELPFUL. I don't mean to be nasty, but we are past the stage of " Let me tell you what I think" and "Let me tell you WHAT WILL BE". One exeception, Paul Milne. The stuff is fixing to hit the fan. If we SHOUT it OUT maybe they will go and get stuff right now ! If we "discuss the problem" they won't. I hope and pray that those who are far more learned than I will get the word out. Those who have just become "GI's" need to get with the program. Paul, you HOLLER real loud. THANKS. Call a spade a spade.

-- reed_moore (reed_moore@postmaster.co.uk), February 14, 1999.

Critt: I answer once again, no hedging at all and no offense intended... regardless of your predelictions or your necessity, if you remain in a populated area, you're toast.

You will never get a town prepared AND the surrounding communities as well. Period. All optimism and wishful thinking aside, it will not get done. You can't even get a town council to decide where to put a stop sign yet alone make substantial contingency plans for Y2K.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), February 14, 1999.

>Anyone who wnats to get out of a populated area and who has the >resources to do so, can EASILY find a safe place. EASILY. I know >that 99% of the population will remain where it is.

>To remain in a populated area is suicidal.

Paul, could you give some advice to those of us who desperately want out of the city but don't quite have the resources? How do I find really cheap land?

-- y2kbiker (y2kbiker@bellatlantic.net), February 14, 1999.


There *are* some of us out here who have followed paths parallel with yours. We began in 92. Some of us are just not as open as you.

Keep after 'em. Even if the Davises in the world never get it many others will. Your strong vioce counts.

Best of all to you and yours.

-- Greybear

- Got friends?

-- Greybear (greybear@hoem.com), February 14, 1999.

To Y2k Biker:

There is PLENTIFUL cheap land in rural areas anywhere you look. In my area as low as a grand an acre.

My in-laws bought the ten acres next to me for 15 grand. Had a well and septic worth 5 grand already on it. $1000 an acre. Cheap.

Another alternative: Find somwone who is making Y2K plans and has acreage and cut a deal with him to drop a trailer on the property. Agree to work together for the common good. Become his 'ranch' hand for the duration. You get a place to live and work and are provided with the necessities of life, a share of the food raised for you and your family.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), February 14, 1999.

To those who can't afford to buy a place in the country, I suggest you find a place in the country now. Look for remote land owned by the government or large companies (logging, real estate, etc...) Find a spot with water, a place to garden, hopefully some hunting and fishing, etc... Buy a cheap RV or van, cache some supplies nearby (small town storage units), make plans to get there by several different routes (no main highways). Food riots should not last more than 6 months. Think long term camping trip.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), February 14, 1999.

Hello, Paul Milne:

I live in northwestern Ohio on the edge of a small city (population ~ 8000). WILL I BE TOAST? Almost everyone in my city is taking the "wait and see" attitude. They don't GI and mock me. I'm in full Y2K preparedness drive, and I'll be a target when TSHTF.

If things get ugly, I'm bugging out to the country where my mother, brother and grandparents have wooded properties with ponds.


-- dinosaur (dinosaur@williams-net.com), February 14, 1999.

Moving to a rural area has a lot to be said for it. If you're like me, though, and are stuck in the city because of either family obligations or financial reasons, try this link:


This is Roleigh Martin's Y2K handout that can be anonymously mailed to neighbors. It briefly covers reasons for taking Y2K seriously, and covers basic preparations that hopefully some of your neighbors will follow.

I plan to keep a very low profile in January, 2000. I won't have a generator since they tend to be noisy, I'll keep the windows covered, and I don't plan to step foot outside the house at all for any reason for at least a few weeks.

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), February 15, 1999.

There is no place that is perfectly secure, but Milne's points are axiomatic. With ten months to go, almost everyone who wants to can implement a rural plan, but each month will make it more difficult: $10K or so for used RV and a little land; $5K if you don't have that, for caching with family, extended family, friends.

There are GIs on this board in almost everyone's area who would help if you smoked them out on the QT and if you yourself prove reliable. Listen, Critt, the GIs here are your community ....

On another thread, some of us are discussing Level 2 preparations. Someone asked, "what is Level 3?" I'm going to go back and post, "Level 3 is the 'rural plan'". Serious preparation HAS to involve a Level 3 plan as top priority. It's a matter of will (primarily the wilingness to leave things behind, at the drop of a hat in December of this year), not money.

Milne himself has always said, "if Y2K turns out to be nothing, what have I lost by preparing?" (We'll ignore the troll response). If you have a Level 3 plan and Y2K turns out to be a bump, you're out a few bucks. But if you're already a GI, why are you waiting to implement this part of the prep?

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), February 15, 1999.

Yes, yes, yes, we all know that moving to less populated areas is the ideal solution to the safety problem. BUT (and it's a very big "but") there are some of us who have no skills to sell or barter in anything but a populated area. Sure, we could sell up and move to a trailer in the boonies, but THEN what do we do? We have no capital to draw on, no way to make a living. Some of us are physiologically unable, either from disability or age, to perform heavy work. So shall we just go on welfare for as long as we can, then depend on the kindess of strangers? Then there are those of us with medical problems--we HAVE to live near a hospital, especially since that will be our only slim hope for survival if Y2K is much beyond a 6 or 7.

In addition, when order and services are restored, the most populated areas will be taken care of first--where scarce resources will do the most good. For those who have the money and expertise to live off the grid, fine, but those of us who don't will have to stay in or near a populated area, hoping that we'll be able to hold out long enough.

Mr. Milne, you may write us off as toast, we don't mind that, in fact we know we probably ARE toast. But please try not to gloat over so happily nor criticize so harshly those of us who are not so fortunate and perspicacious as yourself and absolutely have no choice but to stay where we are and do the best we can with what we've got.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), February 15, 1999.

Critt, Here's my plan. My personal preps are about 90% complete. Everyting else involves perishables and I'm going to wait for summer vegetables, fall hams, December gas and kerosene.

I'm going to have a community discussion meeting that I've already scheduled. I've got speakers and a meeting place. During the meeting I'm going to try to identify those with the energy to take further action. If they are willing to help, I want to get a working group for my suburban neighborhood. If I can get a number of people, I intend to seek a meeting with our city councilman to discuss food and shelter for the unprepared. The City does have the wherewithal to make significant inroads into preparedness.

I'm just going to concentrate on my neighborhood/precinct. If we can get rudimentary plans for shelter, heat, gruel and water then I think much of the psychological stress can be eliminated. There are many elderly people in my neighborhood. I'm going to have enough problems of my own if power goes down. I'm not going to be able to help many people outside of my DGI family at that point, but I would be able to identify the helpless in my neighborhood and get them to a prearranged shelter within a few miles of my house.

I'm going to be pretty vocal for the next few months, but if the power goes down, I've got dependents to look after. My moral contract is to look after them. If that means denying the DWGI down the street, then that's what it means. I'm going to be a lot better at preparation than at curing.

If it goes full Thunderdome then any plans made by an individual would be laughably ineffective.

-- Puddintame (dit@dot.com), February 15, 1999.

Old Git --- Not everyone (literally) can move to the country, but I still feel everyone can have a bug-out plan. You are NOT destined to be toast if Y2K > 8. Milne can speak for himself but I don't see his bluntness as gloating. Even a plan that gets you out of big-time harm's way for a month could be enough, though that's not an optimal plan, of course. I don't think we're near enough to be a help, but send me some mail and I'll see what we can do or others we know .....

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), February 15, 1999.

I'm not going to publicize my preparations. But I'm working on anonymous means of waking up people in the nearby town.

If they don't get organized before, they will after. And if any group or individual wants what I've got, they had better use a civil tone in asking for it. It's a matter of indifference to me whether my neighbors maintain their dignity or become a mob. I don't even have to leave my house for a year at this point. And if they get ugly, I'm perfectly willing to defend self, family and property.


-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 15, 1999.


Thanks so much for your continuing efforts at promoting the benefits of community. I have learned from you and been inspired. At heart, I share your ideals and vision of an improved world post y2k. I do have a spiritual view, that I deliberately refrain from discussing on this post out of courtesy to others who don't share it. But suffice it to say, that I see that there are a group of us from many religious backgrounds that have a belief that this marks the beginning of dark times, followed by a renewal and the beginning of an era of unprecedented peace and harmony. The visions you are giving seed to are destined, I believe, to sprout and grow. Already minds and hearts are being changed. I would guess that you share these ideas in general.

However, I do think that the dreamers are often cursed as well as gifted. They have a very difficult time making accurate assessments of and dealing with harsh realities. They hope to transcend them somehow. I can definitely admit this is true for me. I have learned a lot from my young son these last years when, as a result of being attacked and beaten, I decided to train in martial arts with him. I learned that it is ok to defend myself, there really are people who will hurt you, good people can learn to use violent means of self defense, and I really needed to open my eyes to this. The dreamers need the warriors to get through y2k and the dark times. We really need each other but each does not yet know it. I am finding the warrior in me, and saving my visions for the time in which they will have fertile ground, after the death, the wartime, is over. Hopefully the dreamers can summon enough of the warrior within to survive, otherwise, we will have to depend on other warriors to do this work for us.

I realize my suburb is going to be a war zone and that only a handful will make it. I hope to be one of them if I can't get us out of here.

Just my humble opinion. I appreciate Paul and Gary North for waking me up, whether or not I make the same preps as them. With most of the world asleep, loud voices are essential. I disagree that there is any way to educate a community without sending them into a panic. The information itself is explosive and the message is one that sends everyone into the stages of grief. It has to be done. But I did relate to the reaction of those who feel hurt by the harshness. But I will get over it. Have to get tougher. There are millions who can not leave the cities or suburbs who simply will be toast. It is the nature of dark times to produce death and destruction. These cycles come regardless of y2k.

Thanks for the great education everyone. Lora

-- Lora Ereshan (artemis45@hotmail.com), February 15, 1999.

BigDog, How very kind of you! I expect I'm a bit like the kid with nose pressed against the window of a toy store and no way to acquire the wonders inside. Perhaps I imagined the gloating. The fact remains, though, that for whetever reason there are untold numbers of people who would like to but simply cannot flee to the country. Mr. Milne's constant harping on how stupid we are to stay (never mind that we're crippled or old or reliant on hospitals or poor) is not in the least bit constuctive and only adds to our frustration, fear and anger. You know, Winston Churchill moved many millions of people to bravery and action, and imbued tens of millions more with courage in occupied countries, but I don't ever remember him using the word "asshole."

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), February 15, 1999.

Old Git: You are right on the money.Re: Many people cannot leave urban areas. No matter what Paul says and he dosen't really care what happens to GI, DGI and everyone else. As long as he's content to be isolated he shouldn't crap on people, who because of their circumstances, cannot get out. I work in a medium sized town but live two hours away in a small seaside community of 200 people. Everyone has a wood stove, a small garden, their own well etc. (no municipal councils) Big game and fish are plentiful. The winters are moderate. As a professional engineer I consider myself Damm Lucky not to have taken a big job in a big city where they are going to have BIG problems. Hang in there and do what needs to be done.

-- Lucky (anon2@anon.com), February 15, 1999.

Old Git,

You're a special person, and I like you. :)

-- dinosaur (dinosaur@williams-net.com), February 15, 1999.

Lucky: I think Paul Milne does care or else he wouldn't post anything on this website. And really, it is not logical for everyone to head to the hills because there's limited liveable acreage for people to occupy. And, once you get there, how will you surive? For some it is not a realistic option. I live in the country and there are people in close proximity. Big deal! They aren't ready for diddly squat! They'll probably come asking me for food, etc. Just because you live in the country doesn't mean that all will be well either. I'm hoping the gangs won't make it up this far, but if they do, I'll be ready.....lock and load.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), February 15, 1999.

As a young person with no assets and an expectation of 9+, and living in a city of 3.2 million people, I have given a lot of thought to the question of how to make a living in a 6 - 10 scenario.

FWIW... PLAN 1: Best thing I've thunk up is to buy bulk amounts of non-hybrid seeds, and buy lotsa little paper envelopes to put 'em in, either as a barter item or as something to sell. In any situation worse than a severe recession there should be great demand for such things, and you'd be doing a great sevice to those who you supply.

PLAN 2: Buy yourself a post-August-compliant GPS handheld doodad. Acquire dozens of high-grade marijuana seeds. Get some maps of some off-the-beaten-track wilderness places. Go to said wilderness. Plant seeds (plus chook wire and stake) in various hidden spots. Record co-ordinates of each planting. Go back there after tshtf and harvest. Green may be as good as gold, it's certainly a contender as a new currency if things go down so hard that old currency goes kaput. May not be much of a plan for the northern states of USA, being winter and all. Remember not to consume tooooo much of it because this ain't conducive to energetic self-advancement, even in the best of times. Remind any customers of this too. MJ-12 is good for relieving nausea and a few other conditions, if you got some moral problem with supplying pleasure to people. The seeds are bloody good tucker, plus also barterable.


-- humptydumpty (no.6@thevillage.com.au), February 16, 1999.

we're all toast

-- toast (burnt@a.gain), September 14, 1999.

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