Some of the religious threads are beginning to become troll-like, guys.

Yeah, I've been guilty, too, but I'm swearing off. It's not realistically possible to have sensible religious discussions on a Y2K NG, even though there is no doubt that world views play a role under the covers for all of us. Tempers are simply getting to high as the wonderful New Year approaches closer.

Look, if I were an agnostic or atheist (Jew or Buddhist, for that matter), I would be having an extremely hard time not flaming Christians here myself.

Yes, brethren, I absolutely care about the prophetic and eternal implications of Y2K on the souls of men, but THIS IS NOT THE PLACE and many of you know scriptures I could well quote to defend that intelligently. True, folks can pass by clearly labeled religious threads, but as a thread-nabber myself, the temptation to participate is simply too great ....

I would ask others who are very strong on their own spiritual vision to be disciplined as well .... it's very hard for me not to view Ishmael, for example (which I've read) as ersatz theology.

Hey, it's a free country and a free NG. All I can do is swear off myself (not swear at :-). Hope you'll all join me.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), February 11, 1999

Answers

I agree BigDog. We already have too much information here to sift thru. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 11, 1999.

It's theology all the way down, guys. Human race from sinners to saints, ain't about anything else. 'Course it's more genteeeel to drape the fig leaf of water storage tanks, solar battery chargers and 12 gauge magnum shell talk OVER the theology.

-- Blue Himalayan (bh@k2.y), February 11, 1999.

Gotta bite on this one

I've gone round the bend with the zealots here before. (Not all Christians are zealots, a zealot knows that he/she alone is right and all else are going to perish, end of story, no appeals. Zealots spend a lot of time condeming others, and take such joy in the fact that you are hell-bound it is sickening)

There's a place for it (religion) in everybody's life. Y2K brings up some real questions in regard to "The big picture". HOWEVER, due to the intensely personal nature of one's relationship to God, this ain't the place to "duke it out" with those who do not see religion 100% the same way YOU do.

Go to Pastor Chris's forum. Help me out with a link here willya? THAT is the place to take it!

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), February 11, 1999.

That might be a toughy BD.

Separating religious faith with the faith required to act on Y2 might be monumental for some.

Coming to grips that the gods of this age and technology will not sustain us may have been a huge spiritual wake-up call for some that are looking for meaning, guidance and salvation, as our world of comfort and convenience shows its fragile legs.

But hey, I say we just stop arguing over doctrinal specifics. I think most of us can agree: 1) Our reliance on technology is an Achilles heel. 2) Reliance on a fragile infrastructure may endanger us 3) Faith in the "system" needs to be replaced with faith in something else. 4) Y2K has caused us all to examine where we have gone wrong in this society. 5) We all want to know and hypothesise where this all leads.

These will undoubtedly lead to intertwinings of religion, ideology and politics. Not a good mix, but as we've seen already - Y2K touches everything.

To all our peril. Or our benefit on the spiritual side.

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), February 11, 1999.

"Ask, and it shall be given unto you." Sorry, couldn't resist. 8-}]

Pastor Chris's Y2K Forum

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.com), February 11, 1999.

I hope that I don't sound like a 40s movie but,

THANKS MAC!

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), February 11, 1999.

I don't know, I kinda like the religious threads, having studied many of them and being an irrelevantist. It's kinda fun to bait the more idiotic posters, as well as glean the pearls of wisdom.

Besides, we all know that after a short time of leaving it alone, it'll be back with new participants. These things move in waves...

-- pshannon (pshannon@inch.com), February 11, 1999.

When I first read the thread title (before opening thread) I bristled up.

But since it you, BD, and you did present a pretty cogent case, and since I also touched on the idea that the bandwith here is pretty tight to add religion...

I solemly swear that I will henceforth try my damdest not to get into purely religious discussions with all these heatherns hereabouts. Even if if they are real nice heatherns like E. Coli. 8-}

-- Greybear

-Got restraint?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 11, 1999.

BigDog, you rekindled my "faith" in people ;-) Thank you.

I respect Pastor Chris a lot, he's very smart and has a lot of wisdom from the posts I've read from him here. And he knows better than to preach religion here :-)

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 11, 1999.

Religion according to the Bible is taking care of "widows and orphans" or, in other words, taking care of the helpless.

Amen brother, preach it!

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), February 11, 1999.

When you take your car for repairs do you care about race, creed, political affiliation, sexual orientation ? NO! All you care about is can it be fixed, for the right price, and on time. That is what Y2K is about. Religious nuts please tune to channel 666.

-- just a mechanic (y2k@I.fixit), February 11, 1999.

Thanks, Greybear,

Assuming that Dante's right, I'm trying for that highest circle of Hell, reserved for "virtuous pagans." Hopefully it's nice and tropical, with great architecture and lots of people in togas practicing mathematics and natural philosophy.

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 11, 1999.

-- just a mechanic

Do you think taking care of "widows and orphans is nutty?"

I've been studying the Bible for decades and find that people who no nothing about it are nutty. Go figger!

Some people study Karl Marx and think, thereby, that it is their responsibility to convert the world to Slavery. Go figger!

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), February 11, 1999.

Say, E., just how hot do you think it might be there. I might have to just drop in ocassionally for a little chat. (I have lived most of my life in Texas so I doubt if the temperature will be all that unusual.)

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 11, 1999.

Allow me to amplify just a bit, based on some of the comments.

Life is ultimately about theology, I agree completely. It's only a question of where, how and when to conduct the debate. In fact, the flaming aspects of these debates don't bother me: in some respects, contemporary society is too polite about these subjects so nothing ever gets real. Cf Mr. E Coli and Franklin Journier slamming each other about Catholicism on one of today's continuing threads. It's ugly, but it's real, at least so far.

The issue is that most folks don't come to this NG for that. By putting faith in their face, we are forcing them to either swallow hard (too hard) or spit back.

And, BTW, we Christians scarcely ever agree among ourselves anyway: is it really edifying, brethren, to exhibit our, uh, millenia-long grossness in front of everybody (hey, heathen, Paul said that it was always God's intentions to save us losers, what can I say, it is exactly what He has foolishly done, I kid not).

Yet, scripture also says that there must be heresies among Christians (e.g., flaming, riotous debates and error) displayed so that the one truth will become manifest. But here? On a Y2K forum? Not.

I hope, actually, to see all Yourdonites over on Pastor Chris' forum (hey, I've been a backslider but I'm heading over there, I promise) from time to time, especially Chris, Uncle Deedah, Gilda and others. Chris and family already know we're going to put them up on their way, um, to their Y2K "10" destination (may God forbid that we meet that way). Rant on us, you non-Christian dudes ... we'll rant back.

Again, Blue IS right. Life matters. Death matter. And what's after death matters. But let's do it in the right space, no?

And to the brothers and sisters: your Christian testimony is a great comfort to me at this very time. Let's meet yonder, okay?

But I continue to feel that introducing passionate religious convictions on this NG is a serious imposition on other folk, who didn't come here for that. It's a kind of in-your-faceness that forces folks to either swallow their bile or spit back or ???

Look, I'm not trying to be daddy or a censor, obviously. This stuff does come in waves .... and we're having a slow news week, Y2K-wise, right? Yourdonites not only can do what they wish, they WILL, eh?

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), February 11, 1999.

I agree Big Dog! I've been on this forum for a very long time and have seen and participated in some pretty nasty threads regarding religion. I don't embrace any religion and I don't want anyone's religion to be dished out to me. People get their feelings hurt and then they complain that you are bashing them. I don't care to go down that road again.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), February 11, 1999.

I think all threads are important here, as it gives us the big picture. That's why I like it here better than c.s.y2k.

Its also kind of interesting living here without a search engine. Keeps you on your toes and introduces a sort of randomness, where you can reply, but sometimes can't get back to check the responses. Maybe this is good practice for the post-y2k society.

-- a (a@a.a), February 11, 1999.

You're welcome anytime, GB, if I have anything to say about it. We'll mix some Pina Coladas and a big pot of chili for the occasion - extra hot.

I appreciate the move to make this place a religious-warfare-free-zone. I don't mind people expressing their religious opinions about Y2k. The trouble seems to start when religious folks think it's "not fair to take pot-shots at (their) religion," as Franklin put it (psst: He's a catholic. Don't mention the inquisition...). Well, suprise: your religion is just another idea (that's a generous term in a lot of cases) competing for my attention, and sometimes, testing my patience. I will disagree, I will argue, and I will ridicule you if you get ugly or unreasonable. We're not in church. I wouldn't walk into your church, or your religious forum, and start arguing that the Bible is a pantload.

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 11, 1999.

I'm another one who is guilty of allowing myself to be goaded into responding...

I guess my concern is for the newbie lurkers - don't want them thinking the only Christians around here are Mark Hilyard and the identity cultists...

oh well. I will do my best to avoid being goaded, which is realisticly the most I can promise.

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), February 12, 1999.

Best sign about htis I've seen, posted on a church bill board:

"God wants spirtual fruit, not religious nuts!!"

Kinda sums up this whole religious dissussion thing!!

just my .02 worth....

-- Freelancer (mercenary2000@yahoo.com), February 12, 1999.

BigDog,

I agree with you and I am a guilty party. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Can we agree that the street has to go both ways? There are some non-religious folks here who say some really offensive things in kinda offhand ways (one example is the "Religious Right, militia, fundamentalist Christian" crapola) and it gets my and others' collective dander up. So no Christian baiting, please?

-- Franklin Journier (ready4y2k@yahoo.com), February 12, 1999.

***"Assuming that Dante's right, I'm trying for that highest circle of Hell, reserved for "virtuous pagans." Hopefully it's nice and tropical, with great architecture and lots of people in togas practicing mathematics and natural philosophy. "***

I love quoting you E. Coli....and thanks...just the tonic I wanted this morning.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), February 12, 1999.

"virtuous pagan" I love it. That's my aspiration :-) I "sin" against my pagan aspiration all the time, I confess, and I ask all for your forgiveness.

Big Dog, I respectfully restrain from going to Pastor Chris's forum because it would be too great a temptation for me to raise everyone's dander. My convictions are as strong as yours. Better stay on neutral and common ground, no?

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 12, 1999.

would someone 'define' religious thread? Is mentioning anything pertaining to God, a 'religious thread'? I quit posting for awhile because, religious or not, too much flaming was going on. BD, I have seen you post on Pastor Chris's forum, I think it's great. I feel more comfy there as there is not the intense flame sessions that this forum has become. Furthermore, If one does not stand for something, he will fall for anything. I feel it is a shame that it is even suggested to 'no more religious threads', what happened to freedom of speech? Is it not okay to agree to disagree? Sure it is...that is our rights...but, I feel Mr. Yourdon should be the one to have the final say, as he is the author of this entire forum....Ask him. I love God. Wrong to you? Oh well. Go on now, hurry and 'flame' away as it has became the norm here anyhow. On the up side, those of you preparing now will most certainly be praying later............Deal with it.

-- consumer (private@aol.com), February 12, 1999.

Chris --- I understand, cool.

Consumer --- whoa, no need to be so touchy. First of all, I'm sure there will be religious threads here still and people can do what they want: I'm not trying to be a censor no more than, it seems, Ed Yourdon himself. And, you're right, it's his call to advise others here, not mine.

More to the point, so far as I can tell, both the Christians and non-Christians on the NG are equally capable of flaming each other! And, if by flaming, we mean people expressing strong, intense opinions, well, okay. Most of us can handle that without taking it personally.

My point, to repeat again, is simply that this NG isn't the place for, shall we say, a lot of that intensity when it comes to religious stuff ... and it's been getting a little out of hand lately.

As you say, see you at Pastor Chris'. I'm already dreaming up some interesting threads .......

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), February 12, 1999.

How about just agreeing that Y2K presents an unprecedented opportunity for creating tolerance on all levels, appreciation of diversity and recognition that we are all human facing a whopper of an unknown each in our own spiritual, physical, mental and emotional ways.

The web that works is the tie that unites. What works is that everyone around the world needs, each one of us, to be our personal best, however that is defined. The more we all help one another, the more we all pass the Y2K "humaneness" test.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), February 12, 1999.

>>So no Christian baiting, please?

Heeeere, fishy-fishy-fishy...

(I love you, man. Really. Diane's right, we're all in this together, and we have to respect *eachother,* if not eachother's wacky beliefs - and I went a step too far. Sorry if I made you rend your garment).

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 12, 1999.

Sniff! I tore my best hair shirt.

I appreciate your contributions to this forum a lot. My apologies for my ranting.

I'll buy you a beer when we're in the Gulag together.

-- Franklin Journier (ready4y2k@yahoo.com), February 12, 1999.

Mmm...Gulag beer - LOL!

"You're day is done, you're starving, you've been raped and beaten, and they've pulled the gold teeth out of your head even though you're not dead yet. You want a beer that's filling, and with a low alchohol content so you won't pass out before you can enjoy it. You want - Gulag Beer."

We'll have the time - will they have the beer?

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 12, 1999.

No, I strongly disagree with cutting out Christian threads. You guys don't get it do you. You live in a christian nation. When you go to D.C., does it bother you that at every turn, there are religious, yes christian references! You will have to sandblast those walls to get rid of all the evidence!! Why don't you throw away your money into the Potomac? It says in God we trust! America is a tolerant society. Bigotry and discrimination of religion or expression is wrong! We are here to stay! Can't you tell looking at a topic if it is religious? Why do you have to get into the thread to get irritated? That's your problem, don't blame others. Scroll down to another topic.

-- George Hansen (gth@usa.net), February 12, 1999.

George

You are somewhat lacking in historical perspective, re-read why the pilgrims came here.

I love you anyway.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), February 12, 1999.

George,

I agree with you about the posting part. I really don't mind it, and if I do, I just ignore it. But I like the sprit of peace and reconciliation in BD's suggestion. I don't think BD is suggesting that christians dry up and blow away, or that we sandblast all references to God from our national monuments (although that's an intriguing approach, which I'll file away for future reference). I think BD is saying that there's a limit to how productive these expressions of faith can be in this situation. People will always be asserting their doctrine as absolute truth. And when they do, people like me will be there to let the air out of their tires and remind them they're not in the church of their choice. All this is great sport, but it breeds animosity, and doesn't further the purpose of this forum, which is to help people prepare for Y2k (or cope with the fact that this awful thing is really happening to us all).

Go with God,

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 12, 1999.

"No, I strongly disagree with cutting out Christian threads. You guys don't get it do you. You live in a christian nation. When you go to D.C., does it bother you that at every turn, there are religious, yes christian references! You will have to sandblast those walls to get rid of all the evidence!! Why don't you throw away your money into the Potomac? It says in God we trust!"

George, I think you meant to say "this nation is a theist nation". God does not equal christianity. Jews, Moslems, Buddhist and Christians all can relate to "in God we trust".

Except us Atheists. We live in this great nation and pay our taxes too. But I'm not gonna nitpick. Lets just try to focuse on Y2K and all it's philosophic ramifications without preaching religion, ok? That was Ed's intent.

I love and respect most of you guys, sincerely, as religious as you are. So many of you are so knowledgable, intelligent, interesting with a lot of wisdom, and I even enjoy many Polyannas, and newcomers who bring fresh new discussions. The only way we can help each other on this forum, and in our communities and the country at large, is to keep an open and tolerant mind, with good will.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 12, 1999.

George ---- I'm a Christian, duh, and I don't think we live in a Christian nation. That's an opinion, not a fact.

Listen, no one can cut out Christian or religious threads here on the NG. Post whatever you'd like, brother. This thread is a discussion about what might be best for us as a news(group).

Y2K is already seeing a lot of divide-and-conquer activity by the media and DGIs. Why add to it ourselves or be manipulated into the same trap? THAT'S THE THEME OF THIS THREAD.

My Bible says that the second great commandment is, "Love your neighbor as yourself." Not your Christian neighbor, your neighbor. That's pretty heavy. I won't get into how we can/must still express our own specific Christian convictions to our neighbors: NOT THE POINT HERE. The point is, "neighbor", "as yourself".

All the posters on Yourdon, yeah, even the trolls in the end, are my neighbor. While "love" is one of those words that my own generation trivialized, it is a strong, good, powerful word. In that sense, and consistent with being real (I mean, almost none of us have ever met), I do love Chris, E, Gilda as much as those who have named themselves followers of the crucified one.

As this thread putters forward, I'm developing fresh respect for the regulars who have posted here and an ever stronger commitment to standing together for a worthy post-Y2K world.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), February 13, 1999.

Big Dog,

I'm unlikely to ever convert, but getting to know christians like yourself is an inspiration to avoid doctrinal conflict and work on Y2k problems with the churches in my community. I'd been prepared for that, but not looking forward to it; now I know that there are going to be some Big Dogs, Greybears, Deedahs, Arlins and Nikolis there, and I'm looking forward to meeting and working with them. E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 13, 1999.

Y2K panic may initiate many new conversions.

-- dinosaur (dinosaur@williams-net.com), February 14, 1999.

I'm thinking about converting my pickup to natural gas. And if you're in my neighborhood, dinosaur, I'll never run out of fuel!

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 15, 1999.

E. Coli

-- Better (becareful@finalhour.com), February 15, 1999.

-- Oops (fit@it.com), February 15, 1999.