We have run out of time to fix y2k!! We have less than 11 months to go and NOT ONE complient utility or bank. Accept reality here people! We are going down *very* hard as a country and civilization. The media spin is in full force a la Senator Bennets hearings with the Sec. of Agriculture,"No need to selfishly hoard food" "Farmers not affected by Y2k". What about supply chain to support them or transport food? Read between the lines here. The last witness in the Senate hearings essentially told americans to start stockpiling. Koresken has hired a PR firm. Cory Haminsky makes paul milne look moderate by comparison Every day looks worse.

There is no way that this is going to be less than an 9 or 10 now. Six months ago there was cause for optimism. The code has no hope of being fixed now. Programmers are quitting in order to make their preps. Who will be left to fix code here in U.S? The rest of the world is still in the awareness phase(No more imported oil for a long long time). We are headed for a new dark age which will make Road Warrior and the middleage plauge of the black death look like a preschool picnic by comparison. Western Civilization is in the twilight of a thousand year reign. I predict BILLIONS DEAD that's right BILLIONS DEAD due to supply chain and dominio-type failures. The only people who will survive are those who have prepared and have enough firepower to keep it. Oh, it can't happen, right! Remember the black death which claimed 1/3rd of humanity? What about the millions in WWII? Every generation gets there chance to be in history. This is ours. LOCK AND LOAD!!!!!!!!

-- Mad Max (Lock@Load.com), February 07, 1999

Answers

Mad Max, The state of denial is dominant, procrastination is epidemic, vulnerabilities are multitudinous and risks of failures are deadly serious. However , human ingenuity in crises is also a powerful force for survival. Could such ingenuity with desperate effort alleviate some of the dark life threatening picture that haunts you? Your further thoughts will be appreciated. Many thanks and best wishes,

-- Watchful (seethesea@msn.com), February 07, 1999.

I'm quite sure this is exactly what Ed Yourdon was trying to say, but he just couldn't find the right words.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), February 07, 1999.

They say all is well but they prepare for disaster. Sad thing is, it doesn't have to be that way. What good is a government without people to support it? Are they thinking that there is going to be a quick fix? Are they preparing for martial law and a complete government take over? Will the masses turn on its own government officials? And not only do we have to worry about our own government turning on it's people, but other nations seeing how vulnerable we all are will take advantage of it. Billions of foreign money and trade is at stake, who will be the winners?

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), February 07, 1999.

Each should be careful about what we read into reports. If one senses the need to prepare, do it with common sense. Some posts sound as if the individual has lost their ability to deal rationally with an admittedly irrational situation. Be a leader . . . not a frantic sheep.

-- Jim Schenzel (Jim @panicnot.com), February 07, 1999.

This Y2k disaster will be the legacy of the Clinton Administration. The President was warned in 1996 by fellow Democrat Senator Monighan from New York State about the Y2k problem and he ignored it. The Senator has retired and the failure to deal with this problem may have hastened his decision. He had the reputation of being at the forefront of the major social issues and was proven right as events unfolded. Clintons polls will drop from 90 per cent approval in 1999 to 10 per cent or less and the only people who still support him will be the people who still have decent jobs. Monica etc. will be a non issue in 2010. Historians will wonder why didn't the government recognize the problems and take effective action in 1996 or 1998 when there was time to fix it and then why did they lie about it and not warn the people to prepare. The Statement by the Secretary of Agriculture do not help the farmers in their time of high costs and low prices and the advise not to store food further depresses demand for farm products. Perhaps the President should have been impeached for Y2k inaction and the failure to adequately do his job, Chinagate, and his general lack of leadership on major issues. Hopefully this will be a lesson to the American people to pay more attention to what is in the public interest and what is in the selfish interest of the politicians in both parties. The people of Minnesota are ahead of the rest of us by electing a governor that did not belong to either major party. Go Jesse Ventura.

-- Steve (Disappointed@aol.com), February 07, 1999.

Max, people think you're mad, but I think only slightly. Close with the names too. Check the wheel nut on the bike.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), February 07, 1999.

Jim@panicnot.com Your address is a cleaver summary of rationality. Think, reason, asses, plan, act, survive and smile! TRAPASS Pass the traps and progress.

-- Watchful (seethesea@msn.com), February 07, 1999.

Steve: y2k is not Clinton's fault. Get a grip. But he's also not going to be getting any awards for his contribution.

Flint: you may be sarcastic about Yourdon, but remember that if he felt that the situation was a Milne, he would have to be a bit more subdued with his official prognication.

-- a (a@a.a), February 07, 1999.

I lived through the 67 riots in Detroit. 43 dead and the second costliest riot in U.S.history, close to 10,000 arrested.

I saw the gunships, tanks etc.. The Michigan National Guard and Federal troops on our streets. Parts of the city had electric and gas shutoff.

My advice is store lots of water for cooking beans and rice.

My advice for protection are AKs,AKs,Aks easy to train and learn how to shoot and maintain. AR-15s are good,loaded with ss109s. This time we are getting out of Dodge. Heading to a friends farm if it gets real bad.

Been There Done That Long Live Our REPUBLIC Ern

-- Ernest (edsexcel@ameritec.net), February 07, 1999.

First, take a deep breath ! Then another. Calm now ? Good. Is it going to be TEOTWAWKI ? In some places yes. In some places no. Is where you live a yes ? Then get to a place you think may be a no. Can you prepare ? YES. Can you be sure you are prepared ? NO. Now is not the time to snap. Now is the time to be calm. Food is still in the stores. Ammo is still available. Friends can still be found. In a month ? In six months ???? Take a deep breath. Get STARTED!

-- reed moore (reed_moore@postmaster.co.uk), February 07, 1999.

Gosh, I skipped over this thread because it looked just like a billysu**s weekend blitz. The trolls must have found more rickety bridges to play under this weekend ;-)

What about that CIA report that 4 Billion ppl would die?
Has the CIA revised their estimates?

An accurate crystal ball would be non-barterable at this point.
However, if it gets really bad, do you still want to live in a smashing world? The contrast to today's relative ease will be brutal.

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 07, 1999.

Leska said: "However, if it gets really bad, do you still want to live in a smashing world? The contrast to today's relative ease will be brutal."

Yes, Leska, I for one do now and will want to live. I want my children and their children to live.

I may be the only one left (if I am so be it) who stands up as speaks for civilization. I may be the last one who tries to keep civilization going. (Although I think there might be a few more hardcore type hereabouts on this board.)

As long as I have breath I will strive for freedom for all men.

THIS is my duty. This comment follows from another thread about duty.

My first duty is to NEVER GIVE UP.

I already KNOW I am going to die. I just don't know exactly when or where. All I really worry about is HOW. (If I have any foresight at all about my death it includes alphabet soup).

Until I assume room temperature I must NEVER GIVE UP.

Too many people better than I am or ever will be have died to give me the life I have. I owe my children no less.

Greybear - who fully understands just how sappy the above will sound to a lot of people and who doesn't really give a dam.

- Got grit?

-- (greybear@home.com), February 07, 1999.

Leska, What CIA report to you refer to ? Do you have a link? Thanks.

-- Curious (Huh?@astonished.com), February 07, 1999.

Greybear, you've never sounded sappy, and I've always appreciated your posts.
Think having children would impel one to live.

We want to live too, but don't want to confront/hide long-term from savage looting raping mow-down torturing cruel mobs. The way one dies, and the state of consciousness at death, does much to determine one's next level of existence.

Curious, when we first came on the Forum, that CIA 'intelligence' was being discussed. If there were a search engine we could look up CIA + 4 Billion and find it. Needle in a haystack now, but old-timers may remember. Kevin? Diane, are you home from Oakland Y2K Expo yet? Link request!

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 08, 1999.

Max: hmm...well actually the plagues in the middle ages took out about 3/4 of the population of Western Europe and the European controled portions of the Med, but that was about all...the rest of humanity did fairly well, thankyou. also please remember that running around in circles shouting and waving your arms generally tends to draw fire, no?

Leska - as a Christian I'll live as long as God allows me to...also need to note that for us suicide is a no-no. Quite frankly even if it goes to a GN level 10 scenario I wouldn't expect to see *endless* loot and pillage, simply because of the time of year that y2k is occurring (can you spell 'hypothermia'?) and the fact that the non- industrialized carrying capacity of this country is so very much lower than the industrialized capacity that starvation will also become a significant factor relatively quickly.

just my 2 cents' worth, Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), February 08, 1999.

Arlin, it seems, if the disruptions last a long time, the pillaging will last too. Still won't be deliveries and ppl going to grocery store to shop. Every inch will be ransacked before ppl will willingly starve. Ppl in warmer south will come up north in summer to clean out whatever's left by the winter-frozen.

It is not suicide to quietly fade away by starvation rather than risk utter painful degradation at the claws of the mobs by venturing out. If only one can hibernate unto death! That would be a blessing. It is a quality-of-life/death predetermination, evaluating extreme circumstances. This is not suicide. Suicide is going out into the humanimal jungle.

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 08, 1999.

I'm rather stubborn - I think I'll be one of those in the "not dead" category for a while longer.

Don't know how much longer exactly, but probably a while longer. Figure somewhere between ten minutes and 100 years is close enough. Then again, maybe longer.

Seem like almost everybody who drank water or breathed oxygen has already, or may yet, die. (Depending on your views, some may or may not end on or in this world in various ways.) So I figure its better to be ready for the next (far longer) life rather than worry excessively about this (relatively short) one.

But of course, no use hurrying up the end of this life yet either. The original poster sured seemed hyper didn't he?

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), February 08, 1999.

Hi Leska,

if it's a 10, by the time it gets warm up north, the folks down south will already be dealing with every little nasty subtropical disease you can think of...also remember that the nontechnology-based carrying capacity of most of the US is far lower than the current population.

Sorry, but intentionally starving to death is still suicide - the intent is what makes it so.

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), February 08, 1999.

Leska,Arlin, and Grey Bear, below is a cool quote from Thomas More, who died bravely and in a principled, civilized way, under the brutality of Henry VIII. Not suicide, yes a Christian, very classy. From the dramatic history of his life A Man for All Seasons . Seems we have something to learn from this. Scene commences as Thomas has been led up the scaffold, standing in front of the block, to be executed by axe-man. Everybody, even the executioner, respects Thomas, and all are sad to see him die...

Sir Thomas (kindly, to executioner): Do not despise your office, you send me to God.

Executioner: Are you so sure ?

Sir Thomas: He will not refuse one who is so blithe to go to him.

-- Runway Cat (runway_cat@hotmail.com), February 08, 1999.

The bush people in the rain forests are going to be laughing at us. They'll be just fine. No electricity, no phones, and all the food they can eat.

-- Mr. Kennedy (look@reality.org), February 08, 1999.

4 billion will die?! My luck is I'll survive and be the only female around...and be stuck with greybear..ewww!

Wait...I thought culling was supposed to improve the race..hmm...;-)

Leska, I never saw that CIA report either. Now you got me all worked up, I'll have to fish for it even if it takes me days.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 08, 1999.