This forum has become a laughable entity along the lines of Sir Gary's House of Doom, neither of which are being taken seriously by those on the front lines, those who are doing the work.

Yeah, of course, there are a few of those among you who are among those who are on the front lines, those who are doing the programming remediation, who still weigh in on the Doomer side; but rest assured that for every engineer who spouts the Doomer scenario, there are 100 who say they will have it under control.

To those who automatically claim that any who talk about scenarios better than what was touted 8 months ago; be careful lest the men in the white coats come carry you away.

Doomer idiots are among the 1.66% of computer programmers nationwide who think this will be a disaster. Yep. That's pretty much the way things are shaping up. Work is getting done, but we don't hear about it due to the lawyers. Big Duh. (Took the doomers a couple of years to figure that one out).

Messrs. North, Yourdon, Milne, and Hamasaki (and Infomagic, need we mention him/her/it) have pretty much painted themselves into a corner, and they know it. But dang if they'll let on. they'd rather have everybody run on down into hell with em

Expect all kinds of lashes against the sentiment expressed in this post; and expect absolutely none of them to be supported by facts.

Uncle Poo-Poo

-- Uncle Poo-Poo (doom@duh-doom-doom.net), January 31, 1999

Answers

Yo,

Poo=poo - you've given yourself away already with your tag line - shit happens I suppose.

You may as well give up - us Yourdonites are made of sterner stuff than to succumb to fourth rate trolls like you.

Do fuck off.

Andy

Two digits. One mechanism. The smallest mistake.

"The conveniences and comforts of humanity in general will be linked up by one mechanism, which will produce comforts and conveniences beyond human imagination. But the smallest mistake will bring the whole mechanism to a certain collapse. In this way the end of the world will be brought about."

Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan, 1922 (Sufi Prophet)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 31, 1999.

Again I find myself agreeing with Andy: Go $#$@ yourself.

-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), January 31, 1999.

Andy,

You should certainly be proud of yourself; such replies build up your reputation in the 'common-sense-y2k-email-network' as a Milne wanna-be.....try a bit harder, getcha a farm in south Virginia, and you just might get honorary status

-- Uncle Poo-Poo (doom@duh-doom-doom.net), January 31, 1999.

Uncle Shit for Brains,

Who do you work for? Is that company 100% compliant? Are you going to spend New Years eve in an airplane headed for China, Japan, Brazil, etc... Have you invested all your 401K in the stock market (Amazon.com?)?

Sure there is progress, yes most companies will be ready, however it is the ones that won't be that will be the problem. 10-25% in the U.S. and more than 50% worldwide. Get a clue, this isn't about life in your microcosim.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), January 31, 1999.

Golly dang Bill,

the glass ain't 80% full....

it's 20% empty, huh.

-- Uncle Poo-Poo (doom@duh-doom-doom.net), January 31, 1999.

Uncle pee=pee,

Maybe Sahfff Lahhndon me ol'wankah mate....

Now, you've oustayed you're welcome so do fuck off troll

Or I'll set the Krays after ya...!

Avast!

or, if you want to make yourself useful, lets all see your reply to the following question...

The $64,000 question is - how many and at what capacity do these linked sub-systems need to function to retain the structure of the whole?

This was written by Mike Goodwin.

I've been pondering the root Y2K problem for many years, searching for a concise way to describe the true nature of the potential threat. This week, aided by the phraseology of a scientist, I've constructed this question:

"What is the fault tolerance of our globally-distributed specialization network?"

This is the relevant Y2K question. Remember, it's not the compliance of home appliances that matter ( and why polls keep asking people about home appliances is an unfortunate mystery... ) [no mystery to me pal, deliberate skewing of questionaires in a disinformation campaign - Andy], and the likelihood of failures somewhere on the planet are all but certain. Failures are going to occur, without a doubt.

The question concerns the ability of our globally-distributed specialization network to survive faults. If the global system is highly fault tolerant, it will survive intact, with few disruptions. If the global system has low fault tolerance, we're in for a very rough ride. Perhaps even a multi-year shutdown of civilization as we know it.

FAULT TOLERANCE HAS NEVER BEEN TESTED

Recognize the fault tolerance of our "new" global community has never been tested. In the days of World War II, America was relatively isolated. We could build our own planes, trains and automobiles ( tanks, too ) . We had factories, we had relatively short, U.S.- based assembly lines with skilled U.S.-based workers who possessed labor skills. The network of specialization was much smaller, and therefore, more fault tolerant. Everybody knows the fewer pieces you have in an engine, the less likely it is to fail. Simplicity leads to reliability. Complexity results in a low fault tolerance.

Today, the manufacturing base of America is nearly extinct, and the supply lines for building products stretch across oceans, involving a half-dozen countries for parts. This is the "globally-distributed" specialization network to which I refer, and it is a relatively young system.

It's been driven by economics, by specialization, by efficient ocean- going transports and air deliveries. It's enabled by international telecommunications: e-mails, faxes, phone calls, even video conferencing. International banks allow the moving of funds from buyer to seller, through trusted international clearinghouse networks. This is, indeed, a "network" of a thousand parts, and each part of the machine must work at near-perfect efficiency for the whole system to operate correctly.

WE ALREADY KNOW THE SYSTEM CAN HANDLE A 1% FAILURE RATE

So what is the fault tolerance of this system anyway? That's the debate, that's the big question. Clearly, the people who say that systems fail all the time -- with no big deal -- are missing the point. Yes, power plants fail on a daily basis. Phone lines go down somewhere on the planet on a daily basis. Banks mess up transactions with frightening regularity. We understand that this global network has a fault tolerance of at least 1%. But that's not the right question. Y2K isn't a local hurricane. It isn't a local power outage or a local bank error. It's a simultaneous, global slam-dunk event. It may raise the failure rate of this network to 10%. And *that* is the big question: is our globally-distributed specialization network able to withstand a simultaneous failure of 10% of its parts? See, isolated failures always rely on the non-failing services -- and an excess of available resources -- to complete repairs. When a power plant fails, all the power experts get called on the phone lines, and they rush to the scene to fix this lone failing power plant. They use credit cards to buy plane tickets, gas, food, you name it. And when they're done, they go home and wait for the next power emergency. This demonstrates the 1% fault tolerance of our current system. But what if ten power plants go down? Suddenly you've got 1/10th of the available resources for each power plant. Then what if the telecomm is down? You can't reach the people qualified to repair the power. If the telecomm is down, they can't use their credit cards to get there. Then what if the airlines aren't flying? You've got delays, people have to drive. So they depend on oil, but what if the oil tanker shipments are delayed?

AT WHAT POINT IS THE FAILURE UNIVERSAL?

See, at some point, somewhere between 1% and 100%, you get a total failure of the network. The real Y2K question, when you boil it down, concerns this number. What percentage of simultaneous failure can the network withstand without collapsing?

Clearly, it's something lower than 80%, something higher than 1%. Perhaps the network could withstand a 5% failure; that's debatable. Imagine if 5% of all financial transactions were bad. That would clobber the financial institutions: busy signals forever. Imagine Wall Street with a 5% transaction failure. The whole system would shut down due to the 5% failures. A 10% failure would seemingly bring most networks down. Imagine if 10% of the parts in a power plant didn't work correctly. That's an off-line plant in short order. Imagine if 10% of the parts didn't show up at the Chrysler plant. That's a sure-thing shutdown. Imagine if 10% of the water treatment plants in the country failed. It would be a Red Cross nightmare, just attempting to supply water to 10% of the population.

In my opinion, the world probably can't withstand a 10% failure rate without severe and long-term consequences. A 20% failure rate would be, I think, a fatal economic event. It would thrust the world into a depression with all the resulting costs in dollars and lives. At a 20% failure rate, the efficiencies break down: the food production and deliveries, the oil, power, banking, telecommunications, and so on.

80% ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH

This is why, when people tell you that 80% of the systems are going to be ready, that's not nearly good enough. Technically, if you believe my analysis, 80% of the systems working is still a disaster. 20% of the systems failing could break the global network's back. In fact, a 95% "working" ratio isn't good enough, either. Even a 5% failure could have long-term, painful consequences. In order to avoid the worst effects of the Millennium Bug, systems need to operate at 99% or better. We need to have less than one failure per one hundred systems. At that rate, I'm confident the fault tolerance ability is sufficient.

Well???

We are waiting.

The forum is open - we are not fascists. Speak up, simpleton!

I byte.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 31, 1999.

It would be real interesting to see how many of you doomer folks have ties to, or are directly involved with:

(1) militia groups

(2) wacko extremist 'overthrow the government' type organizations (Gary North has stated this desire in no uncertain terms)

(3) those who stand to profit from the overkill sale of survival gear, spurred on by overkill Y2K fear-mongering

(4) insecure people who just would love to see this present state of things completely disrupted, because they just can't very well deal with life as it is

Any poll participants??

-- Uncle Poo-Poo (doom@duh-doom-doom.net), January 31, 1999.

Andy bud,

I'm reminded of an old saying my grandmother taught me...."the truth can be said in a few words....a lie takes many."

Scroll up for the application of said truism.

-- Uncle Poo-Poo (doom@duh-doom-doom.net), January 31, 1999.

Uncle Poo-Poo commented:

"It would be real interesting to see how many of you doomer folks have ties to, or are directly involved with:

(1) militia groups

This is straight from the current administrations mouth. I bet they have a boiler room with these folks sitting around punching out BS all day long. Their modus operendi is to have one shill post a bunch of factless BARF and then have others stand by to post support.

Uncle Poo-Poo please go find a country that coddles to LIBERAL boot licking folks like you.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), January 31, 1999.

Don't call me Bud "wankah", you've lost this one so fuck off. That simple. Oi you, outside, now!!!

Apologies to regulars, I have taken my gloves off so to speak.

Anyone care to answer "The $64,000 Question..."

Best regards and all the best,

Andrew,

Two digits. One mechanism. The smallest mistake.

"The conveniences and comforts of humanity in general will be linked up by one mechanism, which will produce comforts and conveniences beyond human imagination. But the smallest mistake will bring the whole mechanism to a certain collapse. In this way the end of the world will be brought about."

Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan, 1922 (Sufi Prophet)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 31, 1999.

Many facts have been posted on this foum and many other places that would indicate that 2YK might cause severe disruptions. Uncle poo-poo has not presented one fact to the contrary. He only resorts to personal attacks.

Why oblige him with responses? Why lower yourselves to his level of crudeness?

-- fly .:. (.@...), January 31, 1999.

Hello. It is fine for you to put your faith in "the work of your own hands". At least you will know the cause of the failures when they hit full scale.

There are numerous failures documented already, that have been somewhat minor in effect, usually software oriented. I'm glad programmers have some confidence in themselves. That will get us further along in steps 3 and 4 of remediation and testing (final testing). However, with the rate of "disclaimers" flying up in every industry known to humankind, you can see how confident the industries are based on the assurances of the programmers. When you KNOW something will work, such disclaimers are not necessary. You have more product confidence statements from wrinkle cream manufacturers than those who are working on y2k inventory, assessment, remediation, and testing.

-- Mr. Kennedy (y2kPCfixes@MotivatedSeller.com), January 31, 1999.

Guess Uncle Poo-Poo here just proves what Kurt Saxon said about a large-scale disaster. It would weed out the shallow end of the gene pool, which is long overdue for a good cleaning anyway. Hey Uncle, here's an anchor for you ;)

-- Noah Simoneaux (noaj@yournet.com), January 31, 1999.

Mr. Kennedy,

I just read your post 4 times and am still confused - what exactly are you saying? thanks, Andy.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 31, 1999.

Where crudeness is involved is in trying to scare the public half out of their wits with this overblown Y2K scare.

Certainly there will be bigger problems outside of our borders, and no one has tried to deny that. But this Gary North/Ed Yourdon/Paul Milne/Infomagic/Cory Hamasaki doomer-gloomer crap that is attempting to be propagated on this and other sites is a blatant manifestation of rampant social irresponsibility, come what may. There's no way around that, word it how you might.

Those of you who disagree with this are a minority, and that minority is becoming smaller day by day. And that isn't because of propaganda; it's because people are waking up to the fact that things aren't as bad as they were originally projected to be.

If you can't see that, well then that's an issue you need to take up with your personal optometrist. Or maybe your psychiatrist.

-- Uncle Poo-Poo (doom@duh-doom-doom.net), January 31, 1999.

I think Andy's argument deserves serious consideration. There is surely some point beyond which our economy cannot function, and there is surely ample reason to worry that we'll pass that point.

The debate here addresses several other aspects Andy didn't have room to mention. Are we talking about critical or non-critical failures in that 20%? What recovery rate can we expect, or is Andy assuming failures are permanent? Is there a point beyond which recovery is effectively impossible? What impact is remediation having, and which failures (critical or non-critical) are experiencing the biggest impact? What differences do we extrapolate between important functions ceasing altogether (power, communications, banking) and important functions being significantly degraded for how long?

If this is a bump in the road, it's a big one and will knock off a wheel or two. It'll take time to get those wheels back on. You're going to be very late to wherever you were going, and this may or may not be critical, depending. I don't see how anyone can doubt that we're going to be living in interesting times indeed.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), January 31, 1999.

flw - there's one born every minute... (suckers, me)

we don't have ICQ do we? any ideas?

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 31, 1999.

Andy, posts like Mr. Kennedy's are baseless BARF. These folks are experts at spewing forth propaganda that makes things appear rosy.

Keep posting your informative factual information it is much appreciated.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), January 31, 1999.

Andy there ain't no ICQ here so we can think about what we say for a minute before we send it.

And so people like you and me can pause a second and try to give some respect to the other person's viewpoint, no matter how divergent they might be.

Thanks Flint for making me think about that.

-- Uncle Poo-Poo (doom@duh-doom-doom.net), January 31, 1999.

Let's drop the profanity though, shall we? That's never the sign of an intelligent discussion...no matter how heated

-- Uncle Poo-Poo (doom@duh-doom-doom.net), January 31, 1999.

Uncle Pee=Pee,

As we all knew, you failed to answer the question troll, you must think the people here are so dumb...

We all noticed the absence of an answer Mr. pee=pee.

Get a grip in the future folks, Mr. pee=pee has transmogrified and will do likewise for the next year or so. There will be many, wait and see, like this traitor to us all paid by *OUR* tax dolars.

Get used to it.

Believe it or not, these traitors are hire by the CIA do fuck with us all.

Isn't it amazing what your tax-dollars(tm) (*CAN*) do.......

Andy

Two digits. One mechanism. The smallest mistake.

"The conveniences and comforts of humanity in general will be linked up by one mechanism, which will produce comforts and conveniences beyond human imagination. But the smallest mistake will bring the whole mechanism to a certain collapse. In this way the end of the world will be brought about."

Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan, 1922 (Sufi Prophet)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 31, 1999.

Uncles Sam. Oops, I mean Uncle Poo-Poo:

Thanks for pissing off Andy. Sometimes, as in this case, "taking the gloves off" for a moment produces a meaningful, no-bullshit answer.

Regards,

Critt Jarvis 277 Beasley Road Wilmington, North Carolina 28409 910-790-5677

"a lie can be said in a few words....the truth takes many."

-- Critt Jarvis - Wilmington, NC (critt@critt.com), January 31, 1999.

The Big question, Uncle Doo Doo, is why do you care? If people on this forum are in the minority in their doom and gloom views, and we are not facing any serious problems, why in the world would you spend so much time commenting about this issue? There is something very weird about your interest.

-- King of Free Estimates (Ispuzzled@this.time), January 31, 1999.

Um...Andy...

You're asking me for an answer.

Unless I suddenly lost all ability to read the English language, the title question for this thread was posed by me, myself, and I, namely: "Will the Doomers ever see Reality?"

So what are you doing asking ME for an 'answer'?

Related to Slick Willie, are you?

-- Uncle Poo-Poo (doom@duh-doom-doom.net), January 31, 1999.

"Thanks Flint for making me think about that.

-- Uncle Poo-Poo (doom@duh-doom-doom.net), January 31, 1999.

I rest my case !!

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), January 31, 1999.

After looking at U.P.P.'s attempt to put faith in the works of the programmers that are currently working on the problems:

SNIP ::

Yeah, of course, there are a few of those among you who are among those who are on the front lines, those who are doing the programming remediation, who still weigh in on the Doomer side; but rest assured that for every engineer who spouts the Doomer scenario, there are 100 who say they will have it under control. END SNIP ::

Honestly, if the programmers didn't "SAY" they were "on the right track"...."doing everything possible"....."forsee no problems they can't overcome"....etc, all of them would be out of their extremely high priced contract jobs.

Really, Mr. Poo, "survivalists" aren't the ones out to make money any more than the Y2K remediation programmers, that keep going higher in estimated costs and contract prices every second of every day. As a matter of fact, the programmers are quitting working on government projects at record levels because corporate America is offering, and PAYING excruciatingly high prices to hire them away and come work on the y2k problems that were neglected until now.

Mr. Poo wants to have confidence in the proclaimations of the programmers ..... now, let's see..... if they were really worried about helping save the world economy and making sure the structure didn't collapse....they'd be working at low or no cost. They'd be able to say, "our remediation efforts are 100% accurate".

Point being... Mr. Poo is having way too much confidence in the statements of the programmers that say they'll "have it under control". They are making so much money right now, I'll be they'd say their mother was green, if it kept the contracts coming at the prices they command right now. The companies, though, are putting out disclaimers of their company performance, which may or may not be in effect after 2000. That means that their programmers have NOT given them assurances that what they are doing is 100% verifiable, and they'd better cover their corporate asses (just to be on the safe side).

It is interesting to note here, for Mr. Poo, that Prodigy ....overrun with excellent brainy types focused on the computer industry, has closed their doors (1st phase of Prodigy). The cost is too much and the project is too vast. Compare that to the CEO's at Coca-Cola. Their expertise is in soft drinks. They don't focus on compter functions. They hire people to handle that. Coca-Cola CEO's don't question what the computer department knows or is responsible for, just so long as they can make COLA. So, you can observe here on a large scale example, people IN the industry are ready to admit that it is better to close than to pursue the monumental task of fixing what is already broke. People outside of the computer industry have to go by what the "programmers" say. You don't think the programmers are going to give up all that money and shoot themselves in the foot, do you?

Nope.

Andy, what I am looking at here is snake oil proclamations. Snake oil sales people wouldn't sell many bottles unless they say their product would cure all.

Programmers have to state the ambiguous "we are on the right track" and "there should be absolutely no problems"...etc. Why would anyone pay them a dime otherwise? Yes, they probably can fix the systems...but not within the given time frame. It will go well into the years ahead.

-- Mr. Kennedy (y2kPCfixes@MotivatedSeller.com), January 31, 1999.

King of Free Estimates,

One question begets another. As it should.

Your question presupposes an error. I.E. if anyone spends any time on this forum, they should by default support the worst-case scenario.

Well, if we were in Nazi Germany, or Communist Russia, or any other dictatorship, that thought would hold water. But we aren't. And it doesn't.

The reason I spend time on this forum (which time is realistically about 2% of my waking hours) is to try to counteract what I see as a poison. Namely, the gloom-and-doom Y2K scenario/belief.

Any other questions?

-- Uncle Poo-Poo (doom@duh-doom-doom.net), January 31, 1999.

Those of you who disagree with this are a minority, and that minority is becoming smaller day by day. And that isn't because of propaganda; it's because people are waking up to the fact that things aren't as bad as they were originally projected to be.

First, oh scoffing one, those who recognize Y2K as having a potential for disaster in their lives have never been in the majority. The vast majority have always expressed exactly the opinions you put forward, with the exact lack of evidence you bring to the table. Second, rather than becoming fewer, the numbers -- on all Y2K forums -- of people preparing continue to increase, witness the shortages and scarcities beginning to appear. Third, youve managed to resort to insults and rude, arrogant behavior, but anything youve posted to date has been singularly lacking in fact. You quote statistics that appear to be spawned only in your slightly warped brain, -- that only 1.6 of all programmers believe there will be problems -- as proof, with no attribution. Such statements simply will not hold up to the light of day.

If you can come bearing evidence, well listen and weigh that evidence. Assertations are not evidence, name calling and arrogance are not evidence. Those, like you, who want to elevate their own opinion by bad-mouthing others dont present evidence. As a result, you come across as only another -- with questionable motives -- who appears on this forum, rants, raves, demeans others, and finally disappears, having served no useful purpose. I suspect your life is like that, too: a rant, a rave, and no useful purpose.

Good day

-- seeker (of@truth.com), January 31, 1999.

Uncle Poo-Poo commented regarding Andy:

"Related to Slick Willie, are you?

-- Uncle Poo-Poo (doom@duh-doom-doom.net), January 31, 1999. "

Uncle Poo-Poo, your a slippery little rascal. A true disinformation expert.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), January 31, 1999.

Okay, here's my evidence.

If things were really as bad as you folks say, you wouldn't have time to argue on computer forums. Think about it.

The proof is in the pudding.

-- Uncle Poo-Poo (doom@duh-doom-doom.net), January 31, 1999.

RAY

Andy, posts like Mr. Kennedy's are baseless BARF. These folks are experts at spewing forth propaganda that makes things appear rosy. (In reference to my first post).

Obviously you missed my sarcasm. I'll overlook this, this time.

Mr.K

-- Mr. Kennedy (y2kPCfixes@MotivatedSeller.com), January 31, 1999.

Uncle Poop

Can I take your poll?

1) Nope, if I know any of those folks Im unaware of it.

2) Nope, I would like to see SOME things change, but not by a violent overthrow. Hardly a wacko position

3) Nope, not my bidness. My bidness will be hurting if folks are out of work. Not looking forward to that.

4) Nope, I deal with life pretty well thank you. Guys like you make me uneasy though, does that count?

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 31, 1999.

I'm not trying to make things look rosy either; it's just that there's another common error in the Doomer camp -- "it's either total doom or Pollyanna" (10 or zero -- no middle ground -- have run into that idea, oh, maybe 100 times, so don't even try to tell me it doesn't exist)

there will be some problems

BUT you folks who preach gloom and doom will have a lot to answer for -- for those whom you have misled

I wouldn't want to be in your shoes come 1-20-2000

-- Uncle Poo-Poo (doom@duh-doom-doom.net), January 31, 1999.

Uncle Dee,

you're exempted...no worries mate

-- Uncle Poo-Poo (doom@duh-doom-doom.net), January 31, 1999.

Mr. Kennedy commented:

"Obviously you missed my sarcasm. I'll overlook this, this time.

Mr.K

No need to overlook it. SPIN it any way you want.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), January 31, 1999.

Uncle Poo-Poo commented:

""it's either total doom or Pollyanna" (10 or zero -- no middle ground -- have run into that idea, oh, maybe 100 times, so don't even try to tell me it doesn't exist) "

You make a rather large assumption here sir. Please refrain from this type of hypothesis in the future.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), January 31, 1999.

pee pee ducked the question

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 31, 1999.

Uncle Doo Doo, the gist of my question was, why do YOU care about something that is of little concern? It's obvious, that you are spending more than 2% of your conscious time dealing with this trivial issue. Why?

-- King of Free Estimates (Wantstoknow@this.time), January 31, 1999.

Uncle P-P -- "Will the Doomers ever see Reality?"

On any given day, a lot of people will be either right, partly right, confused, deluded, hysterical, fantasizing, schizophrenic, partly wrong, wrong, or just plain out of touch. This is not a recent development. Don't worry about it.

Given the facts as you set them forth, what's your problem here?

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), January 31, 1999.

I have been reading this forum everyday for over eight months and I rarely give my .02 I think it is important to note to the new forum readers that I have seen more disimformation by who I think are goverment spinsters in the last two weeks then all of the period combined in the last 8 months. This Uncle Poo-Poo is probably Y2K My @ss. I'm just wondering if its just a few spinsters using different names or several spinsters. The writing is on the wall and its not hard to figure out whats going on. I would suggest ignoring these types unless they give documented imformation to back up there views. Up until about 2 months ago this forum was a powerhouse of good imformation on the topic and I just wonder if thats why these so called trolls have chosen to attack this forum. Anymore half the stuff on here is nothing but crap that I beleive is deliberately posted in order to make us all look like idiots. I notice that some of the good people dont post here regularly like they used to. Is this the goal of these spinsters. I think so.

Mike

-- flierdude (mkessler0101@sprynet.com), January 31, 1999.

Andy and the rest: why bother responding to these agitprop posts? They're either disinformation flunkies or 14 year olds with nothing better to do. You know what Robert Bennett is saying about the problem, and Corporate America is certainly putting their money where their mouths are--don't waste time with this. I'll encourage everyone again not to get emotionally involved with other respondents to a 'virtual' forum: utterly pointless, I'd say.

-- Spidey (senses@tingling.com), January 31, 1999.

Poo,

Optimists make shitty programmers (and systems analyst, and designers, and ..........). If you don't (or can't) see the downside, you'll probably miss the one thing that will kill you.

MoVe Immediate

-- MVI (vtoc@aol.com), January 31, 1999.

Spidey,

you clever fuck - as always you are correct. So am I. This world needs fucks like me too, in the real world I travel to exotic countries, drink lots of alcoholic beverages, and get thumped by Cops and women, not necessarilly in that order :)

Granted a LOT of twats these days, it will get worse...

Andy

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 31, 1999.

Hey Uncle Poop, Would you mind stating for the record what state your from to know whether we should feel sorry for you or laugh at you?

-- Bill (mm260@aol.com), January 31, 1999.

Well - I'm a card-carrying "not a doomer", but a "realistic right-handed Roman Catholic" - so where is your little poll does that leave me?

I've reviewed every post since September 1998 - and found only Rev K. to openly offering items for sale - we know that, and have the choice of buying or no tbuying as each sees fit. So - no profiteers at all.

Militia - three replies indicate people who could be catagorized that way - two were from obvious "thieves or brigands" who indicated they would indeed attack and rob. Other posts from people who are preparing indicate they have been threatened by "Dont Wanna Get It's" like yourself with theft, break-in's, and confescation of stored goods.

So my conclusion is - people like you are a violent, probably criminal, threat to those of us who prepare. Can you prove me wrong? The coarse, vulger obsenities you casually throw arund indicate certainly you have no class nor capability to communicate cleanly - so why should I think you will live cleanly and morally with troubles occur?

There are significant disagreements within the forum about parties, philosophy, liberal and conservative, and religion as in the wider world - and we have learned that there is a wide mix od opinions - so that leaves out the "far right wackos" label you desparately want to tar us with. And in using those labels, you indicate you would believe the liars now in Washington to those who admit they are battling uncertainity and unknowns. Who is the patriot here? One who would steal, lie, cheat, steal, and circumvent the system? Or one who pays taxes, and still saves to try to prevent future troubles? One who takes tax dollars, or one who pays extra? One who expects Uncle Sam to solve everything (he can't, by the way), or one who takes person responsibility for his or her own future?

There is no evidence in this forum of unpatriotic behaiveor - instead a great sense of patriotism and action to prevent this country from failing. In DC, who you imply you represent, we sense little but scorn and resentment of what used to be held sacred by the President and his allies.

You see - you represent a concerted and well-coordinated effort over the last two weeks to viciously attack and denigrate those who would take responsibility for themselves - and then give no basis for anything you claim.

Why should we belive anything you say? You have offered absolutely nothing to show us why you are worth listening to.

Again - you ignored this question before - who is acting responsibily? A person who is using their own money to prepare for uncertain but likely troubles in power, gas, heat, light, 911, and food distribution? Or a cursing, ranting, obnoxious insulting bully - who will need help if troubles strike?

The original question asked: "When will doomers see reality?"

The answers is: We have seen a probable troubling future - and want to prepare. If those troubles don't happen, great. If they do, when will you see reality? And who will you threaten when you are cold, hungry, thirsty, and afraid of the dark?

Really, answer this honestly - if you can, what do you gain by trying to keep people from preparing? If a person is preparing, what is he or she doing that so scares you that you are reduced to obsenities and spittle?

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), January 31, 1999.

Uncle Poo-Poo in his very first message said 'Expect all kinds of lashes against the sentiments expressed in this post.....'

44 messages later and we proved him to be correct. Don't let people like 'Uncle' destroy this forum. He knows how to do it. Don't play his game!

-- (please@stop.it), January 31, 1999.

Let's see ... what were those stages again ... first ANGER, then DENIAL, then PANIC. Hmmmm, guess Uncle Poo-Poo is still in the ANGER stage. But at least he's here ... won't be long before he gets it.

-- (@@@.@), January 31, 1999.

Uncle P- Buried somewhere in here you suggested that we were the socially irresponsible parties. I'm quite unclear why this would be the case. If we see a difficulty in teh road ahead, we steer away, don't you? If the morning traffic report says that a truck has once again laid itself in in Dead man's Curve, we don't go down town that way.

We see a problem developing and are steering away from teh potential problem, in such a way as to be able to support ourselves and families, as the Lord has charged us (men). This means that we will NOT be a drain on the resources required to assist the general public, who has not decided to steer away.

How is this socially irresponsible?? I submit to you that to NOT prepare is the irresponsible position, since it puts one and one's family in danger.

cr

-- Chuck, night driver (rienzoo@en.com), January 31, 1999.

Gang, "Uncle PP" is just the latest troll that has wandered onto this forum. Like all trolls, he knows just what to say to press your buttons, but never really works very hard at it. The harder you work, the more he will press. Ignore him, and he too shall pass.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), January 31, 1999.

Since Uncle Poo Poo refuses to prepare for Y2K, he will be forced to join the desperate hungry marauding gangs in 2000. He will be so hungry that he will stoop so low as eating dog Poo Poo off the street. Get a life, Poo Poo!!!!!!!!!

-- Count Dutch (Countdutch@hammond.com), January 31, 1999.

hey unc...i have to say i have never enjoyed a site as much as the responses your dissertation evoked. even you name gives us ammo to sling mud....can say much for the folks using the foul language..guess you hit raw nerves... on a serious side uncle poo-poo there will be a breakdown of society at some point in the future..that is evident if you look at things carefully...ever notice how many countries keep popping up? back in the 20's....look at a map of Africa and the rest of the world. look now....a macrocosm of a coming microcosm. unity ....with the information breakdown....the unity of the masses will breakdown as well......don't forget...it don't take much for the masses to get ugly...you are being a total shmuck...because you don't have a clue as to what will happen...your arrogance and the reaction it invoked makes for good reading..at least on the other side...and I suppose it allows for the doomsayers to check their mettle. you will convert soon...you are obviously asking for help......

-- rick shade (rickoshade@aol.com), February 03, 1999.

I just read this, I guess it is just me.... how long was this thread?

-- me (justme@aol.com), February 03, 1999.