http://www.intellectualcapital.com/issues/99/0107/icbusiness4.asp

-- fly .:. (.@...), January 28, 1999

Answers

I am a banker. I'm convinced that the banking industry will be ready for y2k. But what has me concerned is the reaction I am already seeing on the part of consumers. Many have expressed an intent to take cash from their accounts this year. In fact, many have already done so. The problem that I see is that if everybody takes cash out "just in case" or "as insurance" they will cause the very disruptions they are trying to avoid. I think the government, corporations, and IT specialists need to do a better job of spreading whatever good news they can because the news media will do a great job of spreading bad news. I applaud Social Security's recent announcement that they are compliant. We need more such pronouncements.

-- Charlie (SLOBRADLEY@AOL.com), January 29, 1999.

With 27 years in the programming racket I can assure you that on any given week, you can find a bunch of trivial computer problems as those listed in the above article that have nothing to do with Y2k. YAWN! The biggest potential for problems with the new century rests in the possibility that doom-and-gloomers will convince enough of people of impending disaster that a panic will set in. So my adivce is to keep an eye out for the potential panic and, if it comes, you may have to join in out of self-preservation. If everybody remains calm and cool-headed, Y2k will come and go just like every other year for the past quarter century with a major hang over being your biggest problem come January 1, 2000.

-- Dave Dick (ddick@pioneerplanet.infi.net), January 29, 1999.

Very good points! The year 2000 is not the end or beginning of anything and the nut cases are already coming out of the woodwork. Many computer systems will fail, most will survive quite nicely. Bread will still be in the stores on Jan 2, 2000 and babies will still be born. I wonder if we'll see the same level of stupidity at the millenial mile markers in the Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, and Japanese calendars?

-- Rackjite (rackjite@hotmail.com), January 29, 1999.

Wow! Nice article. I am using the Y2K scenario to teach my children the idea of adaptation in a crisis situation. I am not going to be totally conspiracy theory orientated, but I will stock up on extra items non-perishables and fuel(generator). it is important, as our civilization adavances with technology that we do not lose our insticts as human beings. The Y2K situation is a good exercise in teaching our children that basic survival practices are still very important. The motto of the boyscouts is something to put into use in the next 12 to 18 months. The Y2K problem will be a positive not only for my children, but as business and government tackle the issue over the coming months it will make our technology even stronger. It might even fuel the already spicy economy!

Thanks, John Dessauer

-- John Dessauer (dess15@aol.com), January 29, 1999.

I see no proof. I see no proof. I see no specific examples of total failure on 2000. I see paranoia, not proof. I will give an example of what I ask: A local (but not my) electrical company, TransAlta, based in Edmonton, Alberta, recently suffered a brownout. To restore power, they had to manually reset several hundred circuit breakers. This proves that they do not use computers for their distribution grid. I see no proof. And I am armed with skepticism.

-- Mikhail Odotorvich (mbuttrey@bigfoot.com), January 29, 1999.

THE SKY IS FALLING!! THE SKY IS FALLING!! Sound Familiar? I am going to collect the names and e-mail addresses of all the doomsayers I can find, and one year from today I'm going to send all of them a WAV file of me laughing my buns off because they spent a fortune worrying about something that will be no big deal. Give it a rest.

-- Duane (DJKHare@aol.com), January 29, 1999.

To Charlie the Banker.... Your enthousiasm about your bank being Y2K compliant is pure nonsense. Without electricity you will be out of business! There is a 95% chance the Grid will go down this fall when they shut down 108 Nuclear power plants. This will cause a total shutdown because of the domino effect. This happened is Auckland, New Zealand when a substation went down and caused the whole grid to crash. It took them 4 1/2 months to fix it. I say to Charlie, you better take your money out of your own bank right soon, or you'll lose it!

-- Eddie Ponski (Ponski@soft-link.com), January 29, 1999.

I'm more concerned at the moment with how long it's going to take me to remember to write "2000" on my checks. This may end up being the biggest problem of all!

-- lisa (mgol781042@aol.com), January 29, 1999.

I suspect that a great many things won't take the slightest notice of the year 2000, mainly because they weren't date dependent to begin with. What we will have to watch out for mostly are accounting systems, some of which may start to fail this year. Will electric power fail on New Years Day? Well I don't know, but I am more concerned about being properly billed.

-- Debster (debraj1@ix.netcom.com), January 29, 1999.

LET US SAY THAT COMPUTERS WERE INVENTED IN THE LAST FEW YEARS INSTEAD OF 30 YEARS AGO. DO YOU THINK WE WOULD TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE CHANGING OF THE CENTURY IN A FEW YEARS? THE Y2K PROBLEM IS A MINOR SOFTWARE PROBLEM THAT WILL BE SOLVED IN PLENTY OF TIME. THERE MAY BE SOME MINOR PROBLEMS BUT NOTHING WE CANNOT HANDLE. IN CALIFORNIA WHEN IT RAINS THE NEWCASTS SPEND 30 MINUTES TO AN HOUR ON FOOTAGE. THOSE OF US FROM OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY GET A KICK OUT OF THIS. THE Y2K PROBLEM IS THE SAME THING. A BUNCH OF REPORTERS WITH NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN HYPE UP A RELETIVELY UNIMPORTANT UN-NEWS ISSUE. GOOD DAY.

-- GLENN (GSPLANTONE@AOL.COM), January 29, 1999.

By the way - my compliments to the people who are actually working on solving the problem instead of standing back and proclaiming the end of the world. Maybe we'd be in a lot better shape if all the doomsayers would learn COBOL and help out instead of hiding out in the mountains with ammunition and flour.

-- blackstatic (pmarchman@hotmail.com), January 29, 1999.

There are many bad things about the overhype attending Year 2000 matters. I currently work for the Army Corps of Engineers, Memphis District. They have tried to get local communities to prepare properly for floods and earthquakes (New Madrid Fault) for years. Generally they have failed. Now people are preparing for a 'disaster' that won't happen. At worst, Year 2000 problems are going to be a series of dreadful annoyances, about like a series of winter ice storms that won't quit. I fear this will discourage rational preparation for disasters that have no set starting date in the future.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), January 29, 1999.

I am not responsible for the wicked and frail fractional reserve banking system which Dessauer and his ilk has foistered upon us, and I will not be responsible for its failure. With or without y2k, lthe demise of this system seems near. Hallelujah.

-- dave (wootendave@hotmail.com), January 29, 1999.

Y2K or not Y2K that is the question, but maybe not the problem. When a herd of cattle are already spooked, it really doesn't matter whether it's a gunshot, a cannon, or a fart, that startles them, there's going to be a stamped. When the brush is dry enough, the fire will find it! Call it what you want, armagedon fever, apocalypse, the end of the christian epoch, Nostrodamus today, a death wish, a need for change, the fear of change,or Y2K. It doesn't matter. The cattle are spooked.

-- jim (IRS FOX@aol.com), January 29, 1999.

TO:

charlie(SOBRADLEY@AOL.COM rackjite@Hotmail.com

What I find to be somewhat unusual is that both of these answers are posted on the forum referenced by fly.

They are identical in form and in text.

And, they are both dated 8 Jan 1999.

Coincidence?

curiouser and curiouser

S.O.B.

-- sweetolebob (La) (buffgun@hotmail.com), January 29, 1999.

MY GOD!!! Apart from eddy's contribution, thiswouldhave to be the STOOOOPIDEST thread I've ever seen on this forum, even without a jerry or a jimmy or a chittum or a bible quotation in sight! (Sorry to offend any of my online friends who are big fans of the deservedly famous Nazarene hippy.) Do any of the contributors to this thread have ANY evidence to support their flippant dismissal of y2k?? How's the Persian Gulf SCADA's going? How's the European electric grids goin' ? Embedded systems in oil rigs-what are they? Y'all come across like a bunch of kindergartners who've stumbled across a quantum electrodynamics newsgroup and felt compelled to give your two cents worth. Absolute Dickheads, or spinmeisters, one or the other, or both.

-- humptydumpty (no.6@thevillage.com), January 29, 1999.

apologies to Sweetolbob, whowasn't there when i posted

-- humptydumpty (no.6@thevillage.com), January 29, 1999.

Damn, Hunpty, you didn't read my post.

-- dave (wootendave@hotmail.com), January 29, 1999.

>John Dessauer (dess15@aol.com), January 29, 1999.<

Oh, and I saw your exact same answer there too Mr. Dessauer.

With that same date of 8 Jan 1999.

Now, isn't that special?

S.O.B.

-- sweetolebob (La) (buffgun@hotmail.com), January 29, 1999.

Hmm, is this the same Peter de Jager who, only a couple of months ago, told an Austin (TX) conference that he expected quite serious Y2K disruptions in the U.S. to last 4-6 weeks? (Never mind the rest of the world.) Perhaps miracles have been wrought in the last three months. But I think that Mr. de Jager now fears bank runs more than he fears Y2K disruptions. Granted, the U.S. banking industry looks to be in reasonably good Y2K shape; but the best evidence from the best experts suggests that Y2K overall will be far more than a bump in the road: the cumulative impact here will be serious, and in many other nations very serious. Fortunately, it's very unlikely to be Armageddon.

Still "must reading": "The Year 2000 Software Problem: Quantifying the Costs and Assessing the Consequences," by Capers Jones, arguably the world's foremost software metrics expert.

-- Don Florence (dflorence@zianet.com), January 29, 1999.

Looks as though the 'Feds' have appropriated the monies for their 'disinformation campaign'.

c

-- c (c@c.c), January 29, 1999.

Does anyone know if this has been fixed:

Source: Electric Power Research Institute Proceedings from EPRI Embedded Systems Workshop, Proceedings dated 10/4/1997

Y2K testing was conducted on a generator temperature control system at a power plant in the United Kingdom. To test for Y2K compliance, the control system clock was set to just prior to midnight, Dec. 31, 1999. Twenty seconds past midnight, the unit tripped on high generator temperature.

It turns out the process value for the control valve for generator cooling is integrated over time for smoothing and when the time moved past midnight from '99 to '00, the PV was integrated over infinity. The valve closed (fail safe), tripping the unit on high generator temperature. If this were an isolated incident, the industry would evolve through the year 2000 with little difficulty. However, the algorithms used in this control system are common throughout Europe and most systems are vulnerable to the problem. Loss of numerous generating units simultaneously in the United Kingdom could be devastating to the country.

-- Reporter (foo@foo.bar), January 29, 1999.

Duane DJK@whatever: Send your .wav to rienzoo@en.com on 1/31/00, if you can.

cr

-- Chuck, night driver (rienzoo@en.com), January 29, 1999.

GEE, DID I NOT READ BETWEEN THE LINES OR SOMETHING??? Having read Peter's article, I don't see any reason to rejoice. He says that the TEOTWAWKI croud has gone a bit overboard, but that there are problems and there are going to be failures. Sorry, but this article is impact neutral on my expectations. As soon as he (or anyone) musters the same level, quantity, and type of DATA that were used to demonstrate the fact that problems exist, to show us that the problems are now taken care of, I will happily stop shopping, and donate half of what I have to a food bank, and use my Millennium Mill for kindling for the bonfire on 1/1.

Chuck

-- Chuck, night driver (rienzoo@en.com), January 29, 1999.

Right you are, c (c@c.c), and Humpty.

I think one of those D.C. "give the public a team spirit booster- shot" meetings with the P.R. consultants must have let out and everyone's at their 'puters typing away.

-- (jor-el@krypton.com), January 29, 1999.

hmm, well if that really *is* rackjite, then most of the other pollyanna posts are likely to be his work as well. last I saw, which was a few years ago, he was hanging out on alt.politics.firearms, being rabidly antigun, as *pseudo*liberal as possible, and generally irrational. For the regulars: think JBD with less intelligence, maturity, and wit.

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), January 29, 1999.

"I am a wanker. I'm convinced that the banking industry will be ready for y2k."

Are you, perchance, a Merchant Banker Charlie?

I think we should be told.

Andy

2 digits, only 1 byte.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 29, 1999.

"For the regulars: think JBD with less intelligence, maturity, and wit."

What? - you mean like Troll M + Deano (sic)

BWWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAhahahahahaha

Andy

1 mechanism, 1 byte

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 29, 1999.

There are more troll postings on this thread so far than there are messages by non-trolls! It's time now to review...

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000LiD

"25 Rules of Disinformation -- The Politicians Credo"

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), January 29, 1999.

In case any of you missed it, Declan "it'll-just-be-a-bump-in-the- road" McCullagh has an article in Wired News about our government preparing "a media strategy" to ease public fears about Y2K.

Title and link followed by four quotes from Declan's article...

"Feds Plan Y2K Spin Control"

http://www.wired.com/news/print_version/politics/story/17527.html?wnpg =all

WASHINGTON -- Fear of Y2K panic have prompted the federal government to begin quietly preparing a media strategy to assuage public fears of blackouts or other potential infrastructure failures.

John Koskinen, assistant to President Clinton and chairman of the White House's Y2K council, has entered into discussions with a public relations firm, Wired News has learned. The firm has recommended conducting awareness surveys and honing a "stay-calm" message based on the results.

[snip]

At the council meeting, the Federal Communications Commission's Marsha MacBride and the US Postal Service's Richard Weirich reportedly suggested a federal project to monitor the public's reaction to Y2K. An agriculture department representitive complained that the agency's most frequent telephone inquiry has become: "How many cans of food should I stockpile for my family?"

[snip]

When an industry-advisory group met for the first time last Thursday [January 21, 1999], members fretted over how to prevent public overreaction to Y2K. The members at the group include incoming Securities Industry Association chairman Roy Zuckerberg, United Airlines chairman Jerry Greenwald, North American Electric Reliability Council chairman Erle Nye, and Scott Anderson of the American Bankers Association.

[snip]

In response to a Senate request, the General Accounting Office last fall compiled reports on each industry's Y2K readiness, but has not yet released the complete results to the public. Some agency Y2K officials worry that the bulky quarterly reports published by the White House's Office of Management and Budget every four months contain too much information.

Even though Koskinen said as recently as two weeks ago that "our strategy is based on the premise that the public has great common sense and will respond appropriately when they have the necessary information," the Clinton administration and Congress have taken steps to close meetings.

A bill that Clinton signed last fall was widely touted by the White House and a bipartisan group of legislators as a way to limit inappropriate Y2K liability. But a key provision bars the public from attending meetings of the Y2K council and its subcommittees. The Year 2000 Information and Readiness Disclosure Act says the federal open- meeting act "shall not apply to the working groups established under this section."

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), January 29, 1999.

Panic, what panic? No one is taking their money out of the banks, look at the stock market, no panic there except for panic to buy, buy, buy. Stocks are splitting and it looks like to me people are making nothing but money. There's NO PANIC! The stock market is a good indication that all is well.

-- ~~ (~~@~~.com), January 29, 1999.

But isn't this idea of self sufficiency an intriguing idea? Not to bankers and their ilk, they need stupid sheep in order to corner the markets on real estate and digital monopoly money. Maybe it is time that the robbed begin to collect on some debts. Ever hear of a nation in which interest was illegal? There was such a nation and it was known as Israel. It was and appears to be no more and yet still is. A Mystery. (Clue, I am not talking about the little nation of people known as Israelis.) I am talking about the Greatest Nation on the face of the earth and we will be free!

-- freeman (freeman@cali.com), January 29, 1999.

"But isn't this idea of self sufficiency an intriguing idea? Not to bankers and their ilk, they need stupid sheep in order to corner the markets on real estate and digital monopoly money. Maybe it is time that the robbed begin to collect on some debts. Ever hear of a nation in which interest was illegal? There was such a nation and it was known as Israel. It was and appears to be no more and yet still is. A Mystery. (Clue, I am not talking about the little nation of people known as Israelis.) I am talking about the Greatest Nation on the face of the earth and we will be free!"

This one is a classic of the genre folks...

The idiots name is Freeman - geddit???

He mentions the following, to push peoples' buttons without making any sense whatsoever - what a yo-yo to think the ploy would work - ya gotta laff!!!

Israel

Bankers

Stupid Sheep

Real Estate

Monopoly Money

Collect on Debts

Robbed

Illegal

Mystery

"Little nation of people known as Israelis..." (hey guy, you're not very good at this are you - hahahahaha)

And folks, finally, the penis de resistance...

"I am talking about the Greatest Nation on the face of the earth and we will be free!"

What a furgin maroon!!!

Andy

Two digits. One mechanism. The smallest mistake.

"The conveniences and comforts of humanity in general will be linked up by one mechanism, which will produce comforts and conveniences beyond human imagination. But the smallest mistake will bring the whole mechanism to a certain collapse. In this way the end of the world will be brought about."

Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan, 1922 (Sufi Prophet)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 29, 1999.

Andy, for the love of God, please, please, PLEASE go back home. America - LOVE IT or LEAVE IT! Hasn't your green card expired yet??

Bank runs will cause more problems that anything else. How is that simple fact not obvious to everyone?

Andy - 1/2 brain, 2 beers and a couple nights in jail.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), January 29, 1999.

Deano,

I certainly do not want a bank run. None of us do. But considering that Bill Clinton and Al Gore did not use their positions to call for everyone to begin Y2K work in 1996, banks runs appear to be a fait accompli.

I submit for your approval an open letter from Peter de Jager to President Clinton dated November 17, 1998...

...less than eleven (11) weeks ago. Either de Jager is being willfully disingenuous now, or else at least two years worth of Y2K work has somehow been done during the past 11 weeks.

http://www.year2000.com/archive/y2kclinton.html

Comments anyone? This should be interesting...

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), January 29, 1999.

Comments Kevin?

Wierd thread. 50-50% Trolls and Non-trolls. Gotta run. Up to a Y2K conference to see what I can see and learn what I can learn.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), January 29, 1999.

Deano,

Hey - I know you're doing your best... I applaud you... law of averages eh? before you make any sense???

But don't EVER tell ME to go "back home" - where the hell did you think you came from Mr. Personality??? - this is the United States Of America, unless I'm very much mistaken, which is a - correct me if I'm wrong - new country, with a Constitution and a Bill of Rights.

I don't expect class one assholes like you've proved yourself to be to tell me to fuck off out of it... what a bleedin cheek!

E PLURIBUS UNUM

"Andy, for the love of God, please, please, PLEASE go back home. America - LOVE IT or LEAVE IT! Hasn't your green card expired yet??"

What's this Deano? - a new dictatorship? - chuck out those who disagree with you?

Hey - I've seen some insults on this forum but you've sunk to new depths pal.

I'm one of the remediators saving a fortune 500 companies' ass as best I can. An important company. Not a usurious Company like the one you work for Shylock...

And cut the BS about beer - I have no problem telling the truth as in my episode last week, I'm freakin fed-up of all this PC don't mention alcohol BS in American society - let's shove it under the table shall we - pot calling the kettle black if you ask me. Lurve the beach...

And I'll ask you once again seeing as I'm at it - if you're wonderful Fanny Maie is compliant why isn't it on the internet success list???

Andy the immigrant. Which you (or your parents Iif they can be located) etc.) were once.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 29, 1999.

Kevin - None of us do? Not an entirely true statement from what I've been reading on this forum. In fact, most all of the "advice" I've seen is saying to get all your money out of the banks and move out of populated areas. If enough people do this (take their $$) our economy is screwed regardless of the outcome on 1/1/2000. That is obvious. I think paper copy of your financial records will be sufficient should there be any problems. JQP needs to seriously think long and hard about this.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), January 29, 1999.

Deano,

Do you really believe there is a way to avoid financial panic? What happens in 1999 will be due to what was or was not done in 1996 and 1997.

It's now January 1999. The corporate world was supposed to have finished its Y2K remediation by Decmeber 31, 1998. According to this article by Howard Belasco...

http://www.y2ktimebomb.com/Computech/Issues/hbela9902.htm

...five (5) Fortune 500 companies have announced completion of their Y2K work: May Department Stores, McDonald's, The Limited, Venetar (was Woolworth's), and Consolidated Stores.

Three (3) Fortune 500 companies are saying they will miss 12/31/1999: Chevron, Nash Finch, and U.S. Office Products.

Wait! There IS a way to avoid financial panic. Somehow, some way, the government must calm the public in such a way that no one else besides you and me prepares for the first few weeks of 2000. Since people can only live a few days without water...

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), January 29, 1999.

"I think paper copy of your financial records" blather blather blather.

yes Deano, everything is going to be all riiggghhht, go to sleeeep, sleeeeeeep, sleeeeeeeeeeep.....

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 29, 1999.

Peter de Jager, 17 November 1998:

http://www.year2000.com/archive/y2kclinton.html

Peter de Jager, 29 January 1999:

http://civilliberty.miningco.com/library/weekly/aa012999.htm

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), January 29, 1999.

Oh Mister Banker

Waht's wrong with this picture? I give you some money to hang on to for me and you give me some numbers on a piece of paper that is representative of my money you are holding for me. One day I ask you for the money that is due me and show you the figures on the paper that you have been giving me. You say that this concept of withdrawing money is damaging? Why - where in the hell is my money? If this is a problem for you Mr. Banker then I really don't want my money in your bank. If you are going to wear the name then play the game. Gezz!

-- Duane (Duane24062@aol.com), January 29, 1999.

Did someone put up a link to this site on the Pollyanna forum? This is the first thread I clicked on this morning and I thought I'd gone into the "Twilight Zone" or something. Man, I need more coffee.

-- Whats the deal? (blew@my.mind), January 29, 1999.

Andy,

There is an incident in my life that I shall never forget. It involved an absolutely huge bobby in Brighton who had me by the ear and kept referring to me as a "bleedin' Colonial". All I had done was to shoot off a few firecrackers in honor of the 4th of July, but he didn't seem to appreciate that. The point is that I had some mixed feelings about merrie old England for a while after. Fortunately, my English friends pointed out to me that the bobby was simply, "A right bloody dickey wanker he was! The cobber was an arsehole!".

I would not even consider apologizing for "Deano", his words are simply inexcusable. Also, I'm sure that you recognize, "A right bloody dickey wanker" when you hear one.

I've chipped in a bob or two to the old "dues" coffers in America, and for my part and the part of those whose memory I carry, I bid you welcome and ask that you recognize that a country that tolerates all manner of "arseholes" in the name of Liberty takes little notice of such as "Deano".

As for you, "Deano",

I was right about you the first time. You're a troglodyte with the morals and manners of a typical manager.

I told you that I'd been fooled before and would again, so if it gives you any satisfaction, you did fool me, for a while. Alarm bells started to go off when you proclaimed admiration for "Troll Maria", but unlike you, I don't stand for throwing out that which I disagree with. First time shame on me, forever after, shame on you. You'd better hope that you never run across me in real life, because if you should, you'd not enjoy the encounter.

You are a dastardly cyber being who is without doubt driven by a corporeal being worthy only of great loathing. You have shamed yourself before your countrymen and dishonored the very ideals that this country stands for. Your words have placed you in the camp of the KKK, the American Nazi Party and all others who preach intolerance and hate. Your crocodile tears for "the children" are now apparent and your position here is clear. Your motivations and words are, for me at least, irrelevant and of no consequence from this point forward. You fool! You're apparently even so dull witted that you've failed to take into account what you've done to your own credibility!

I'll say it again, because it is the vilest epithet I know; you are a typical manager.

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), January 29, 1999.

No Andy, just you would suffice. Go ahead and hoard your money. Fulfill your little prophecy about how the economy will fail due to Y2K. But it won't be Y2K causing it, it will be panic caused by twits like you.

Behave yourself in this country and the police will treat you like an adult. For your sake, thank God you don't have to be a genius to figure that out.

BTW - my great-grandparents were born in the USA.

America - RESPECT IT and LOVE IT or LEAVE IT!

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), January 29, 1999.

My comment goes to Eddie (I think) who mentioned the power outage that took 4 1/2 months to fix. Well, that's a case in point for the pollyannas: if power was out that long, why didn't the banks fail? How could the banks operate with no power? Isn't this what you D&Gs have been talking about? Somehow the banks continued to operate. Maybe Y2K won't be such a mess afterall!

BTW Andy go have another beer you crybaby!

Troll Maria

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), January 29, 1999.

Mr. Banker: Clinton did not say SSA was "compliant". You heard what they and you wanted you to hear. Read the statement again.

-- curtis schalek (schale1@ibm.net), January 29, 1999.

This thread easily gets my vote for "Weirdest Thread of the Week."

I used to like Deano. Not anymore. Sad, really.

Troll Maria's last post proves that she still just doesn't have a clue.

Whatever...

-- pshannon (pshannon@inch.com), January 29, 1999.

Hardliner - I suppose you just sit idley while someone calls you all kinds of names. Sorry dude, I can't do that. KKK? Neo-nazis?? I think not ol' chap! That's friggin' laughable. And I could personally give a flying fuck what you think about me. That fact that you think I care is friggin laughable. I made a decision a while back that ol' Deano wasn't taking any more of the doomers shit. I voice my opinion and get flamed - EVERYTIME. Yall are so predictable it's hillarious!

You haven't a clue about my management skills buddy. I started at the bottom 20+ years ago and have worked my way up. Earned everything I've ever gotten. Nothing has ever been handed to me. And when we do cross pathes, I'll kick your ass and then we'll sit down and have a cold one together. I look forward to the day.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), January 29, 1999.

First thread I read, better than a cup of coffee but I wouldn't want to do it every day. Did someone open the doors to the looney bin this morning?

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), January 29, 1999.

You are all under stress. Relax!

Could we please return to the business at hand?

-- fly .:. (.@...), January 29, 1999.

Almost everyone here prefers ad hominem attacks over debating the meaning of verifiable facts. This is a bad, BAD sign of what's coming in 2000.

Got prayer?

-- Three Times Three (one@two.three), January 29, 1999.

i love it. the y2k loonies call normal people trolls and nuts. On any other non-y2k forum you would be the minority trolls and nutcases.

-- ... (.@...), January 29, 1999.

Wow. pshannon that kinda hurt.....really. We've been on this forum longer than most. Sorry you feel that way. I just can't sit by and watch someone call me names because we disagree about something. I think if you read near the middle of this thread you'll see where I did not start this. I hadn't even replied to any posts, then all of a sudden I'm called an idiot (or something), right out of the blue, unprovoked even! I guess you're saying it's OK for a 'GI' to do it but not a pollyanna? It suprises me that you think that way.

I'd really like someone to address Troll Maria's response about the banks surviving without electricity for 4 1/2 months. Given what I've read on here, that just ain't possible.

Andy - for the 10th time dude - it ain't FNMA......geez!

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), January 29, 1999.

HaHahahahahahahahahaha! This thread was hijacked by a buncha new scoffers. Or maybe one posing as many. Whatever, a dippy into brackish brat-waters. To say that those preparing are instigating collective doom is really stoooopid. See this baseless argument more + more. Won't fly with a mite of thought.

Preparing for disasters is good, because disasters do happen. Rotate your supplies every six months and find your common-sense preparation has lowered your food bill. Peace of mind knowing you won't be thrown into the desperate frenzy should your area be hit by earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, blizzards, hazmat accidents, volcanoes, droughts, terrorism, etc. If Y2K bugs you, just think about the earth and history, and be comfortably overstocked for hindsight proof.

Get a practical grip. Not flaming gripes. Get ABC fire extinguishers and keep one near kitchen and one by main exit. Douse yourself with cool shower when cyber overheating.

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 29, 1999.

Pensacola Troglodyte (AKA "Deano"),

I learned a simple lesson as a child, something to do with "sticks and stones" as I recall. Sorry, that's obviously over your head.

Your ability to "think", regardless of your own evaluation, is spread out over this forum for all to see. Everyone here will, no doubt, draw their own conclusions.

As for whether or not you "care" what I think, the fact that you responded speaks for itself. BTW, you haven't a clue about getting flamed. Now, Jean d' Arc, she could tell you about getting flamed.

Neither I nor anyone else needs a "clue" about your management skills (and I am most assuredly not your "buddy"). You've demonstrated them amply for all here to observe. Just for starters, is it your effectiveness as a manager that allows you to devote your efforts to this forum during "working hours"? (or is it possible that you have another function?)

And, wherever you started out "20+ years ago," if you've been working your way upward ever since, you've obviously made tremendous progress. I was unaware that psychiatry had made such advances.

You may well have earned everything you've ever gotten, but you've clearly not gotten everything you've earned. I hope you get what you're entitled to, and the sooner the better.

As for kicking my ass, that clicking sound that you hear is my knees knocking together in abject terror. Oh, about that "cold one"--hold your breath waiting. Please hold your breath.

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), January 29, 1999.

If all you people think nothing is going to happen why waste your time on this forum go somewhere else. Y2k is real to some of us and a problem to prepare for if we get ready why do you care? Stay home and do nothing we do not care. When we buy things it makes the economy grow. What does it matter if a few men say not to worry? Will they change their tune in a few months? Maybe they want to make money as long as they can and if people get scared it will hurt their business so they say it will be fixed it time but who knowes maybe it will maybe not! If it looks like a sunny day and you take an umbrella with you people stare at you but later that day it may start to rain and the people will think how did he know it would rain maybe he watched the early morning weather report while they were to busy running late. Do not get caught out in the rain it may be a flood.

-- Bubba (Badhabbit@water.com), January 29, 1999.

Deano,

I'd be happy to answer Troll Maria's question about the New Zealand power outtage. It was lengthy, but it affected one particular area of New Zealand: the central business district of Auckland, New Zealand's largest city. This area included 55,000 people, 1000 shops and 7000 commercial businesses.

You can read about the major Y2K-like effects of this area's blackout at...

http://www.churchlink.com.au/churchlink/y2k/auckland.htm

Now Deano, I'd really like for YOU to address my comment about the way to avoid financial panic this year...that what happens in 1999 will be due to decisions made in 1996 and 1997...that the way to avoid financial panic in 1999 is for our government to calm the public in such as way that no one else prepares for the first few weeks of 2000 besides those that already have.

I say that whatever happens to banks and the financial world in 1999 is a fait accompli based on decisions prior to 1999. Only the timing would change.

Deano, do you agree or disagree? And why?

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), January 29, 1999.

"I would be the last person to suggest we're not going to have some nasty surprises, because I definately think we will. This is going to have implications for American society and the world that we can't even comprehend." John Hamre, Deputy Secretatry of Defence

I suppose he just read a few 'gloom & doom' web sights to arrive at his conclusion?

"We've gotten classified reports (y2k) that are so disturbing they had to be classified." Fred Thompson, R-Tennesee

Have you read the classified reports?

There are plenty of reports and transcripts (not classified) out there and they are disturbing enough. Go do your homework.

www.csis.org/html/y2ktran2.html#dejager ETC.ETC.ETC.

By the way you are not going to get anywhere in this forum without providing PROOF. So if you've got it, let's see it.

Deborah

-- Deborah (thatstheway@is.com), January 29, 1999.

Pensacola?? huh? I guess it makes sense to you.......whatever. You're a real piece of work dude! No doubt about that. I'll have to admit that your dribble, at best, is entertaining. I'll give ya that much! Other than that, you seem to be pretty much a waste of skin.

Later dude!

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), January 29, 1999.

Hey Gang:

This is a cut & paste operation from the link referenced by fly.

Dave Dick 8 Jan 1999, xxxx Paul Davis 12 Jan 1999.

Both of these exact same answers are there too. That makes 5 that I know of that are cut & paste.

I guess I should have been more specific when I posted last night. I'm sorry. I was just tired at the time.

It looks like it's just a s*it stirrer operation.

Apology to all.

S.O.B.

-- sweetolebob (La) (buffgun@hotmail.com), January 29, 1999.

Yeah, it looks like someone simply pasted in a few of the posts from the Intellectual Capital discussion to kick off this thread. Howard Belasco also quotes some of them in his Westergaard piece, so they're getting major mileage. There were a few similar discussion threads last year at IC, one of which was based on a fairly dismissive Y2K column by Jerry Pournelle (so what else is new?).

I knew it was some sort of "spoof" (as in, "a false or misleadingly-attributed posting") when none of those first posts were from regulars to this forum; likelihood is low that there would be that many "newbies" all hitting the same thread at the same time. I also note that the complete IC thread reads pretty much like this one, except they don't have any history with one another, so some of the ad hominem stuff lacks that extra "zing" that folks like Deano and Hardliner bring to the party.

Hey, "whoever", you give little credence to your argument when you just post volumes of other people's ideas without attribution or acknowledgement. At least note the source(s) next time, OK?

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.com), January 29, 1999.

Kevin - I wish there was a way to avoid it but I don't think there is. And, you're right, some folks really dropped the ball on this one. Should have been doing what we're doing now several years ago. But I don't think it's gonna be so bad that it's the end all. I'm leaving my cash, stocks, bonds and 401K right where it is. It grows in value everyday and I think will continue to do so long in to the future. I'll grab a few hundred from the ATM like I do every payday. Shouldn't need any more than that.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), January 29, 1999.

Da... Da... Da...... TWILIGHT ZONE...

Gettin down and dirty.The greatest nation on earth that has exploited and distributed its wonderful technology to every other nation on earth is about to not only take itself down but every other nation with it.Great concern about threats that foreign countries pose to the US. The US has the most widespread technology itself to fix. foreign countries should feel threatened by the US. What if their compliant data is corrupted by US non-compiant data.Goes both ways mates.

Police brutality is not reserved for any one nation alone. i can relate horror stories from many different countries. I have spent most of my life living in different countries. Some countries i enjoyed more than others. I came to this country four years ago with the indoctrined belief of it being the greatest nation on earth. It didn't take long to realise that for many that come it is nothing more than a fools paradise. In a couple of months time when i leave i will take with me some good memories and some bad. The USA has provided me with many more bad memories than any other country i have lived in.

Next New Years i shall throw a steak on the barby and drink my Fosters to your good health.

-- Betts (lurking@thelurkers.com), January 29, 1999.

Deano,

FWIW, I don't really like the other name-callers either. You never seemed to do that in the past, but started around Thanksgiving. I was shocked the first time I saw you easily provoked and slip into the name calling thing. Now, you seem to be spending more energy being defensive about the name calling than defending your position. Let them call you names. So What?

But really, it was the "America, love it or leave it, you immigrant" crap that got to me. I just don't think ANYBODY has a "right" to this country while others don't. (possible exception:"native americans") I don't go for that "my great-grandparents were born here and you just got here yesterday so I have more rights than you" mindset. This country does not work to it fullest potential with that mindset.

For the record - I love The United States of America and all the ideals that it stands for. I the loathe self-interested politicians and corporate greedmeisters who are destroying it for their own purposes.

Again - whatever...

-- pshannon (pshannon@inch.com), January 29, 1999.

Now hang on - I NEVER called anyone an immigrant and I NEVER said I had more rights than anyone. I believe Andy said something about my parents being immigrants, all I did was correct him. I'll admit the green card thing was in bad taste. FWIW - sorry about that.

Trust me - I hate name calling. I'm ashamed that I've lowered myself to the depths that some apparently live at. When I hear a kid call another kid a name on the ballfield - that little dude gets to run laps and then apologize in front of the whole team.

But I recon a person can only take so much name calling.....after a while it seems to rub off.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), January 29, 1999.

Pensacola Troglodyte (AKA "Deano"),

What Andy did was question whether or not your parents could be found. I have other questions about them.

As for "bad taste", you've apparently been one for so long that you've gotten used to it.

". . .sorry about that."??? "Trust me - "??? We've heard that tune before from you and not so long ago at that. And, if you spend time around developing kids in any capacity where you have the ability to send the "little dudes" running laps and apologizing, you need to be restrained and registered with the State. You aren't fit to be the role model for a common slug, let alone a human child.

If you, "recon" (sic) your emotional control is so weak that a little name calling "rubs off", you've amply demonstrated the accuracy of my evaluation as to your fitness as a role model for youngsters.

"Lefty", eh? It's apparent that something got left--if it was ever there.

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), January 29, 1999.

I think we have stumbled upon an alternative source of energy with which to power the world when we chemically combine Andy, Deano and Hardliner.

Unfortunately, it's radioactive.

-- lisa (lisa@disappointed.here), January 29, 1999.

Hardliner - remind me to invite you to my next party. Sounds like you're one helluva guy! BTW - that's the first time I've ever apologized about anything I've said on this forum so 'trust me' you haven't heard it before. You seem to be a very bitter individual that doesn't get out much. Might I suggest a change in your lifestyle......LIKE MAYBE GETTING ONE???

I've been coaching Little League for several years now. Kids quit other teams, leave other associations to come play for me. Why? I'm a winner. I've always been a winner and will continue to be a winner. I coach winners. I've had kids cry because they have to move up to the next level and not get to play for Coach Deano any longer. I've received awards from our city councilman for my Little League activities. I even take the extra step and fund a lot of the activities for the teams I've coached. You haven't a clue hardliner.....perfectly clueless you are.

I wonder what you've done for our kids. My first guess would be absolutely NOTHING......but I could be wrong. I guess our priorities are different. Mine puts our youth first - can you say the same about yours? Something tells me you're more selfish than anything else.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), January 29, 1999.

Interesting how a bunch of PR shills descend SIMULTANEOUSLY on a forum dedicated to preparing for Y2k, and post a bunch of glossy brochure upchuck counter to the stated purpose of the forum. Then notice how the conversation degenerated, spiralling down into abuse and nonsense. This is the shill-master's intended effect: display to newbies A) some reasonable-sounding polyanna, trust-daddy posts; B) stir up the D&G-ers so they look unstable.

Y2k is going to kill people. When it does, remember to whom we should "send wav files of us laughing our asses off." Or perhaps something less trivial will be in order.

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), January 29, 1999.

"25 Rules of Disinformation -- The Politicians Credo"

http://www.trufax.org/research2/disinforules.html

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), January 29, 1999.

I realize that the response from the banker was cut and pasted, so he probably won't see my response. As I thought about his remarks, I couldn't help but wonder: If we lose power for say 1-3 weeks, is he going to be sitting in his bank in the dark handing out money? Without electricity, how will he be able to access every account the bank handles to see how much money they have available for withdrawal? Is he going to write out everything by hand? Will the vault open so he can get the money out? Chances are slim that the 911 services will be operating, so how many security officers will be in the bank with him? No one is willing to guarantee we'll have power on Jan. 1, 2000. Mr. Banker, this is not just about whether or not your bank is compliant.

-- Gayla Dunbar (privacy@please.com), January 29, 1999.

DUH! Even if we do power up after Jan 1 there won't be any money to hand out after the bank runs this fall.

-- Wanna My Money (Runningtothebank@once.com), January 29, 1999.

Jacksonville Troglodyte (AKA "Deano"),

Even to such as you I confess my errors and acknowledge my mistakes. I suffered a "brain check" and wrote "P'cola" when I meant "J'ville". Fortunately I've never made that mistake when I've been scheduled to land at either one. FWIW, I understand why that confused you.

The thread that you began here , with the word, "Sorry," misled me (not your fault, mine for thinking you something other than arrogant) to believe that you were somehow attempting to repair your credibility of the previous day in an apologetic manner. Also my fault is the "Trust" bit. It appears in the record that I extended the trust to you of my own free will without your having asked for it. OTOH, you surely accepted it, so even you should be able to see where I came from in calling your plea for trust today, into question. I would also observe that bragging of never having apologized before is telling either of your character or your perfection. I shall leave the determination to the participants in this forum.

Your bragging about your Little League accomplishments is in character with the rest of your postings here. Last time I checked, however, Little League was about teamwork and winning was supposed to be secondary. Your boast of the emotional attachments you engender in young boys sets off an alarm other than my BS detector and the further bragging about your own awards and your "altruism" in funding from your own pocket make it louder.

As for my own "cluelessness", you could be right but you could just as easily be wrong. Your assertion as fact that which is mere conjecture is typical of your postings here as well.

In the matter of what I might have done for "our kids", I'll give you a "clue" since you seem to be so fond of them. I have no trouble looking in the mirror each day nor will I have any when I eventually answer for my deeds in this life. Other than that, you'll just have to keep on wondering.

I endeavor not to hate any man, not out of altruism, but because such invariably damages the "hater" far more than the "hatee", so to speak. I do not hate you, "Deano", but you do seriously disgust me and I find even your cyber manifestation repulsive and repellant.

By way of apology to the other forum participants who may feel that I've wasted bandwidth in my words directed to "Deano", let me say that they were by way of relief for myself and my beliefs and standards with no hope whatsoever of altering any of the garbage that undoubtedly occupies the nerve knot that he incorrectly believes is a brain. If I have offended any of you by such, I offer my sincere apology.

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), January 29, 1999.

deano Your statements to Andy are the the most stupid that I have read on this site, including including all of those of baggadonuts and Chittum.

-- dave (wootendave@hotmail.com), January 29, 1999.

That's OK dude - you really disgust me too. It ain't braggin' if you can back it up! I happen to be very proud of my accomplishments with Little League. And I will say undoubtedly that winning breeds success. That's what I teach my kids. If you accept losing, then you are a loser. Plain and simple. My kids play their hardest for me and they love it! I bust my ass for these kids spring, summer all-stars and fall-ball and love every second of it. Baseball is teamwork you nitwit!

OK, I'm thru with you hardliner - you can go now. Time to start my weekend. Now I'm not in the office Mon-Wed, so don't miss me too much.....OK??

Have a good weekend everyone!!! :-)

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), January 29, 1999.

Leaving apart the "debate betwixt and between Deano, Hardliner, et al, the whole tone of the first 15-20 posts smells to high heaven - and from angelcake either.

I's recommend everyone re-read those, and notice what they're aimlessly repeating - no facts, one axample - a false one about a power company having to manully reset breakers (more on that later) - and massive criticism by exaggeration of those who want to prepare for potential troubles. Worse is the consistent pattern of the repeated refrain: the troubles will be CAUSED by those who are preparing.

That is, these "speakers" - whatever or whoever they are is not established, and they offer no indication of their qualification(s) to judge anything, but they keep repeating the same mind-numbing refrain. Nowhere (with resect to banking) do they ackowledge (as pointed out later) that banking cannot be done between offices by paper any more. Without power, neglecting the international markets and funds, and the elecrtonic transfer of payroll deposits and automatic payments, the banks cannot function meaningfully for more than 2-3 days.

Also - the reference to manually resettign breakers to fix a brown out shows _why_ certain Y2K probable failures will be so difficult to fix. If a controller or sensor or processor is bad - manually resetting it only casues it to trip again. You must replace or "reprogram" the controller - which can only be done if the system is secure (safe = 0 volts), and if there is a replacement available. Rather than show why there will be no outages, this shows why - even if the power plant recovers - the distribution network will be most likely very, very erractic while coming back up.

Again - to the regulars, or any other "reader" above who can dispute - with facts, as Paul has done regularly, any of my conclusions - have at it. However, I reserve the right to test your prediction gainst real-world performance next January.

Your words won't keep me or my family warm, but my actions might. What will your actions be doing? What will your hot air (if spewed now to distract people from legitimate preparations) be worth then?

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), January 29, 1999.

Old trick, fun to watch. Shills drop rock on fire ant bed, ants come boiling out. Works every time. Having food stored is one thing. Building a community in a post-collapse world is another. If all y'all can't do it on a harmless virtual forum, what do you expect the result to be when you're cold and hungry? Love and support, that's what it's all about. It's okay to be wary, circumspect, prudent, cautious, bull-headed, and skeptical, but you gotta have love. Or else nothing else will matter. 'nuff said.

-- Spidey (senses@tingling.com), January 29, 1999.

Could someone explain to me why people who profess not to be concerned about y2k would hang out in a y2k forum?

Dian

-- Dian (mybit@cyberspace.com), January 29, 1999.

Dian,

I've wondered about your question too--many times.

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), January 29, 1999.

Those first posts where copied from the URL referenced by fly, as so astutely pointed out by SOB.

I sure would like to see Deano the worm get his proper from Hardliner in person, but being the fair man Hardliner is, I believe that Hardliner would decline the honor after seeing the Deano in all of his fairy fury. Real men don't pound on little girls. Deano sure sounds like a defensive little girl to me.

Luv? What kind of prepubescent teenybopper horsehumper spells it LUV?

What a puss!

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 30, 1999.

sorry dave.

-- humpty (no.6@thevillage.com.hayou), January 31, 1999.