An Interesting Scenario : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

I thought these two letters to the Editor of World Net Daily were relevant and worth posting here. I think the scenario in the second letter is plausible, because it allows the media and government controllers to seize the initiative and control the situation. Comments?


The president's dangerous new plan

I've been waiting to hear something similar from this "president," but I certainly expected Clinton to wait until the impeachment process was over before he advised the Senate and Congress to allow for the military to be able to take over control of civilian police in the event of an attack within the United States. After 33 years living in Latin America I know first hand how dictators work and I tell you now this is what Clinton is trying to do. First to rupture the morale of the country, then eliminate the middle class, and finally put the military in control. So far Clinton has only to put the military in charge! He's done the rest. God help the people of the United States from themselves, those too lazy to pay attention to what is going on. This is exactly what Clinton wants. Just like his mentors in the dictator field. Soon we will belong to South America, since we will be governing ourselves the same way and only Canada will have the right to say they are North American. LEO D. GREER SR. / CAPE CANAVERAL, FL

From an old man concerned about the direction of our nation: For what it's worth regarding Y2K, here is the scenario which I believe may very likely be correct.

Beginning Premise:

1.There are those (Insiders) within our country who are working diligently toward the destruction of our Constitution and the subsequent ruling by edict as an oligarchy (group of dictators).

2.They would like nothing better than an excuse for martial law from which they would never release control, nor return our nation to constitutional government.

3.The Y2K problem, whether it turns out to be real serious, or a bump in the road could be used to their advantage. But whatever they do must be done before 1-1-2000.

4.To achieve their objective they need to orchestrate the situation to intentionally create a very chaotic situation, regardless of the seriousness of Y2K.

5.If the masses make reasonable preparation for Y2K in advance, an adequate chaotic situation would be far less apt to develop. That would foil the plans of the Insiders. They must assure by whatever means that chaos develops.

6.The above being true, certain steps and preparation by the government will be necessary. Government organizations like FEMA, BATF, FBI, etc. will be prepared to take action under executive orders.

They must prevent any alarming statements about Y2K from being issued by their minions in the major media until at least mid-year 1999. Continue to downplay the Y2K issue with statements like -- "government spokesmen are optimistic about Y2K." The published line -- "The problem lies with the reactionaries who store food and buy up supplies."

At a given time after mid-year, the national media, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, and the CFR-controlled publications will simultaneously "discover" the dreadful Y2K problem and see no chance of getting it corrected. Those who have stored food or other supplies will be blamed for the ensuing turmoil, and will be presented to the public as the bad guys -- hoarders. The intention will be to scare the daylights out of the masses. At that point in time the masses will only have made very little preparations. Within hours of the co-ordinated announcement in the media the riots will be here. Regardless of the reality of Y2K (it wouldn't even have to be real bad) the excuse would be there for the executive order. This scenario would take place well before 1-1-2000.

At that time, there would be a sizeable group who had made some preparations for Y2K. They (the hoarders) would be ordered by executive decree to turn in the food they had bought. The troops would be given orders to search the premises of all who had stored supplies, or who had turned in food. How will the government know who these "culprits" are who stored supplies? Besides information from the jealous neighbors who had made no preparations, they could easily confiscate the records of Walton Feed, CSIN, and other firms who process dehydrated foods. Also they could get the records of places like Lehmans, Jade Mountain, and Cumberland Store and find out who had ordered survival supplies. Anyone whose name appeared on any of the lists would receive a visit from FEMA or some other government agency. Hiding supplies would be almost an impossibility, especially if one's name appeared in the government search. These government agencies delight in tearing a suspect's home and property to shreds in their search. And the masses who had stored no survival supplies would be pleased to support the government action.

This action by the government would net a large percentage of those who they would refer to as "reactionaries" or enemies of the government, just as was done with political prisoners under communism. They could easily be arrested, killed if they resisted, or sent to a slave labor camp. With that group removed from society, there would be very few left to create trouble for the Insiders. And this could all take place before 1-1-2000.

And this above scenario would be in addition to the real problems which would result from Y2K on 1-1-2000.

-- E. Coli (, January 28, 1999



At the risk of sounding like a pollyanna, I have difficulty believing that there is enough organization and cooperation among the various agencies to pull off something of this magnatude. I work in the system myself (county level) and my own experience has shown me there is much chaos.

Although I may not agree with the plausiability of the above scenario, I appreciate the post. I have always found your posts to be helpful, insightful, intelligent and thought-provoking. Thanks!

-- gina (, January 28, 1999.

An interesting post E, but I don't think there's any way in hell that the public would go along with such a thing by mid-year 1999. This is because implementing such an atrocity would cause a huge amount of bloodshed as "hoarders" began using up their cases of .223 and 00 buckshot. JQP would not tolerate such a thing until the computers go down and his food and beer runs out.

Plus, I'm not as paranoid about Clinton as some.

-- a (a@a.a), January 28, 1999.

I don't think they'll be able to get away with it. But since Waco, civil forfeiture laws, and the increasing frequency of "dynamic entry" drug policing resulting in innocent people getting shot (e.g.: for brandishing hairdryers at unidentified armed intruders - the killers: "oops! sorry, wrong house.") I think these pukes are emboldened and capable of anything. It's been called "endocolonialism:" the American empire is devouring itself, and our Constitution is the appetizer. You can't deny they've taken a number of big bites out of it...


-- E. Coli (, January 28, 1999.

E --- Undoubtedly there are "elements" that are consciously considering ways to manipulate Y2K, perhaps in ways as you post, but my gut feeling is that even the elites are uncertain as to whether Y2K will be bump or TEOTWAWKI. If bump, they must not risk overplaying their hand too much.

What I would expect is some "probing" towards the outcomes you describe, with a range of actions that will be taken as dynamic events unfold (probe, parry, react, probe, etc).

I also agree with "a" about Clinton, with this stern caveat: he is a willing tool of forces bigger than himself (cf Riadi and others).

-- BigDog (, January 28, 1999.

Then you don't know Clinton as well as I do, a...

-- Nabi Davidson (, January 28, 1999.


Conspiracry theories are as old as the hills and have to be taken with a grain of salt. If Y2K causes a 1930's style depression, though, the wrong person might be elected by a desperate public.

-- Kevin (, January 28, 1999.

Big Dog,

I am in complete agreement with your entire post.

It's not Clinton. It's Money.


-- E. Coli (, January 28, 1999.

When you start talking like that I must post...

When they think they have us they will fail!

(Isa 59:19 KJV) "So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him."

(Isa 59:20 KJV) "And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD."

(Isa 59:21 KJV) "As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever."

(Isa 60:1 KJV) "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee."

Got MUSA? Mutual Security Agreement.

-- Mark Hillyard (, January 28, 1999.

Lest I be misunderstood, I have no interest in fighting for some kind of fundamentalist theocracy in the U.S.. Groups like Gary North's Christian Reconstructionists are traitors, not patriots, and serve the interests of global capital by balkanizing the U.S. and thus weakening our power as a nation of free people. "Go to your closet and pray," and stay out of politics. The Bible has often been used as a political weapon, and I want no part of that. Religion is a matter of choice in the U.S. - the Supreme Law of the Land, the Constitution, is not.


-- E. Coli (, January 28, 1999.

Kevin, I agree with you and most conspiracy theories are juvenile. Yet, you yourself are quite right to introduce your depression image here. Just as Y2K presents opportunities for terrorists to exploit confusion geopolitically, it presents opportunities for other "powers" (who don't wish to be visible most of the time) to exploit the situation as well.

E coli's basic point, on other threads as well, has been that *the big money* is scarcely sitting still with the idea of *letting* Y2K happen to it. I mean, this might sound silly, but would you? Why would they? So it's not paranoia to speculate in a Y2K NG about the interplay of those forces on the situation though it is, clearly, speculation.

One of the reasons I think the letters which are shared on this post are, shall we say, premature, is because I think conditions like a depression will be the natural seedbed for the kind of "probing" I mentioned. Indeed, JQP isn't ready to have his sleep disturbed yet for the sake of any NWO. But, if JQP can have his sleep given back to him in return for NWO, that might be a different story!

-- BigDog (, January 28, 1999.

E -- While I am often accussed of being a conspiracy theorist, I will say that virtually everyone in the power structure and all those with substantial incomes fears the kind of total choas many in this forum are able to contemplate. Those in power do not want to do anything to "cause panic". I do think there is real fear in media circles about being the one to write or broadcast anything that unhinges the American people.

If the US government wanted supplies, it would want them in very large quantities. If it wanted soybeans, it would go to Cargill Corp. and would not be interested in small retail amounts in individual houses.

If there was a true emergency, I could imagine a government decree that anyone with stored food was obligated to feed their community. I imagine that it would be easy to enforce, by suggesting that people find out what their neighbors have stashed away. In the same way that the IRS does not send 100 lawyers to collect a dollar, the US marines are not going to attack your house to obtain a sack of potatoes.

All the postuting and the spin and coverups are due to concerns about legal liability, worrying about looking foolish if "nothing happens" on 1/1/0, and keeping the money circus going for a few more months.

-- David Holladay (, January 28, 1999.

IRS just sent me a letter asking for $2.02 in interest on taxes I paid last year.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (, January 28, 1999.


You were doing just fine until that last post, then it all fell apart. Don't attempt to wrap yourself in the flag and wave the Sacred Constitution around, and then flatly state that you wish to deny "Groups like" their political and religious rights. Sounds like treason by your own definition.

-- Elbow Grease (, January 28, 1999.

There are a lot of evil people around, but I do not give them credit for deliberately designing a defective 80 column card fifty years ago, and then proceeding with this intrigue to bring about our downfall. If the banks go down, then so do they.

-- dave (WOOTENDAVE@HOTMAIL.COM), January 28, 1999.

All you conspiracy naysayers try doing some research to base a real opinion on instead of pooh poohing it out of hand. I believe they call that a Pollyanna. Silence would actually be preferable to commentary based on wishful thinking or denial. You are acting like DGI's and DWGI's without knowing what you are talking about. Or are you under the delusion that you and your children now live in and will continue to live in a free society and no one could be clever enough to take it away from you? Obviously, history eludes you.

How many of you need a list of resources to start your research with? I'll just bet no one asks for it either. DWGI's. FWIW knowledge carries with it a great deal of power. The more people that have the knowledge the less likely they can be duped. Still don't want to get it?

-- (, January 28, 1999.

They may not have planned it, but I expect it to be a big benefit to them. A big opportunity that they will take full advantage of.

-- Leo (, January 28, 1999.


As always, a thought provoking set of ideas. It's good to have you back.

A couple of points I think people missed:

It's not "Big Money" that really counts, rather "Big Power." "Big Money" is just the tool that "Big Power" currently uses. Bill Gates has big money, but I don't think he has big power. He's on the verge, but he's not in the club. That's why "they" are "out to get him."

Without the current monetary system intact, "Big Power's" power will INCREASE, not decrease. After all, they control the supply and flow of resources (especially food!). Without the monetary system intact, "they" will be able to tighten that control.

Also, this scenario is based on the PERCEPTION of Y2K breakdowns, not actual technical problems. "Big Power" through the mass media controls that perception (for most people). Right now it's happy-face/ survivalist nut-jobs. Later it switch to TEOTWAWKI/hoarders. All that would take would be a few well placed "statements" and the perceptional switch is complete. If done correctly, this could be acclompished before the fact while everybody is getting jittery.

elbow grease - I think you misinterpereted E.'s last post.

I also don't think this game will be played out before the big party, but I do think much of what this scenario describes is already and will continue to be put into place before rollover...

-- pshannon (, January 28, 1999.

mass: Its not that I don't see the conspiracies, its that I don't think that they are all necessarily connected. Its a free for all. It's very crazy and mixed up, like an orchestra without a conductor. The characters are quite entertaining (Starr, Hussein, Greenspan, even Micheal Jordan), and it's all blended together with some of God's love and a dash of quantum synchronicity.

There is very little to debate about the fact that CIA ran drugs, US corporations fueled the Nazi war machine, the Fed is the proprietor of the world's largest gambling casino, and China buys influence in the American elections. But don't go overboard with paranoia. The future has not happened yet. It's a book, mass, that we are all both characters in, and authors of, at the same time.

-- a (a@a.a), January 28, 1999.

a., I like your literary instincts. But I often think that life isn't a novel, it is a collection of short stories.


-- Runway Cat (, January 28, 1999.

I get it well enough, mass. The cfr,fabians, Club of Rome, bilderbergers, Illuminati, Etc, etc are all real enough and exert enormous control over many things, mostly through their control of the central banks of the world. Without y2k thhey are on the verge of total domination. They ain't no way that they are going to cook up and pursue a scheme that could possibly wreck the central banks, which is the source of their power, contrary to what shannon believes. Y2k could possibly end the dreams of these people, but If they go down, unfortunately we go down first.

-- dave (, January 28, 1999.

China throwing fit over ballistic missile defense umbrella. National guard planning total mobilization comex exercise. President proposes domestic commander in chief of new branch of military. Terrorist weapons of mass destruction imminent. Kokinkook says y2k no problem. Gov. hiring public relations firm to handle y2k. 500 fbi agents deployed to combat militia groups. Pentagon to sell 4 Aegis class missile cruisers to Taiwan over Chinese protest. Taiwan closes deal for 50 F-16E fighters from U.S. China and Russia forge new alliance. Tensions in Kosovo escalate as Russia warns U.S. not to intervene. More missles fired in Iraq today as ground radars engage fighters. 75% of countries world wide are doing noithing to address y2k. Looting erupts in Columbia following earthquake. Monica to testify. Byrd calls for dismissal. 9 U.S. fighter pilots resign over anthrax vacinations. signal to noise ratio exceeds redline.

"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned government since the days of Andrew Jackson." Franklin Delanor Roosevelt.

I think it is safe to say there is more than one hidden agenda by the ongoing at this time.

-- Nikoli Krushev (, January 28, 1999.


a. it's never just *one* group of power players, it's always a whole series of conflicting groups vying for power. your entire scenario assumes a monolithic federal government which does not exist...try thinking more in terms of a huge bureaucracy that can only be guided in very general terms, and which often has internal political factions working toward mutually hostile goals which may or may not do anything to accomplish their stated missions. In other words it's a whole LOT more confusing and less well organized than you seem to think. b. as a conservative Christian who does NOT buy into GN's "reconstructionist" theories, and in fact considers them unbiblical, I object strenuously to your attempt to disenfranchise me. I *will* pray, I *will* evangelize, and further I *will* campaign for and vote my beliefs as well. I have the same constitutional rights you do and I *will* exercise them.

Not to say the next year or so aren't going to be interesting, merely saying they have the potential for being a whole lot less linear than you are suggesting...


-- Arlin H. Adams (, January 29, 1999.

Cat, I think we've got a set of tens or dozens or hundreds or thousands of interrelated short stories. Thanks to some genius of an author, they work together to create the plot of the greatest novel of all time; human history.


-- Leo (, January 29, 1999.

E coli, In case you've never read the Bible it has little to do with "religion" and lots to do with Politics. America will stand no thanks to traitors in her midst. If you want to post tearing down America or whatever you are doing then I will defend her. With verse if needed. I don't intend to use this forum to preach. Get into studying the Prophets of Israel and Judah and you will find that they were the Patriots of the day.

-- Mark Hillyard (, January 29, 1999.

First we are Saddam, then we bomb him. The CIA has been in Macedonia for years arming the insurgents, then 'voila' we need to send troops into Kosovo. Now we find we're arming the Chinese. War is big business, and the central bankers have always loved it. As for 'trusting' Clinton, I'll quote Jim Johnson, a former Arkansas Supremem Court Justice. "You are not dealing with a normal person when you are dealing with Clinton. He is not controlled by character and truth, but by cunning instincts for survival and political expediency. Give him an inch and he will beat your brains out! He is capable of causing a third world war, martial law, or whatever to maintain his position of power." Just ask Jim McDougal, or Vince Foster, or Jerry Parks, or the former white house intern gunned down at the Georgetown Starbucks two years ago (six bullets, two co-workers killed with one shot each to head, cash register full of money untouched, no 'leads'). People had strong feelings about Nixon, but no one accused him of having people murdered. Of course, you're free to believe that Oswald killed Kennedy, too. Why, after Oliver Stone's movie came out, the New York Times ran no fewer than 70 articles & letters maintaining just that. They seemed terribly concerned that people might start wondering whether a coup d'etat DID occur in Nov. 1963, and what the implications are. Are our puppet leaders capable of plotting martial law? Can't happen here, right?

-- spidey (, January 29, 1999.

I have to disagree with some of the bible quotes. Yes christians are safe from total destruction. But, You have conveniently forgotten the verse in revelations that says, and the antichrist will make war with the saints, AND OVERCOME THEM! God didn't promise you immunity from bodily destruction. Just that your soul would never be cut off from his presence. If we as christians don't see that the world system (meaning many dictators)is in control of this earth, and will continue consolidating their power worldwide, you have been overlooking some very important text.

-- sam (we', January 29, 1999.

Former Top Clinton Aid Describes Clinton As "Exasperatingly Stupid" By Casey Combs AP Writer 10-20-98

PITTSBURGH (AP) -- Former White House spokesman Mike McCurry drew cheers and applause Monday when he described President Clinton as a ``richly qualified leader'' who was ``exasperatingly stupid'' in his personal life. McCurry, in his first public lecture since leaving the White House Oct. 1, spoke frankly about his three years as Clinton's spokesman before an audience of about 200 at the University of Pittsburgh. When one man asked how McCurry felt about leaving the White House after three years, McCurry jumped in the air, spread his arms wide and shouted ``Free at last!'' McCurry had nothing but praise for Clinton's performance as president, citing his economic and peacemaking accomplishments. ``He is an enormously gifted and richly qualified leader for our nation but someone who is exasperatingly stupid in his personal life,'' McCurry said. History will never forget the Monica Lewinsky scandal, he said. ``I think there will be an asterisk next to his name in the record books,'' he said. Clinton's presidency ``will always be marred -- stained -- by the episode with Monica Lewinsky.'' He spared no criticism for the White House press corps, saying he was ``literally stunned'' in many press briefings during the Lewinsky scandal when reporters failed to ask a single question about other issues. But McCurry admitted he was duped by Clinton's initial public claim that he didn't have an affair with Lewinsky. ``I was aware of the potential for deception, but I just didn't want to believe he had the capacity to deceive,'' McCurry said.


1 byte

-- Andy (, January 29, 1999.

Clinton's 'Circle Of Death' -

Enjoy??? - Andy...

Latest Statistics


Nahhhh...I'm Just A Cute Guy From Little Rock!"

By Sam Lowenthal


The CLINTON BODY COUNT has climbed to 85 seriously DEAD people connected with that adorable William Jefferson Clinton, (born 'Billy Blythe') whom 46% of you are boo-hooing over, saying "AHHH, it's Sexual McCarthyism, a Torquemada Lynch Mob of Victorian anti- sexuality. We've all had a little nookie, why hang this poor sex- starved good ole boy?" Well, kiddies, don't feel sorry for this reprobate. They may not hang Bill for the right offense but it's the Right airport, if the wrong PLANE!

Read the following, just a partial list of the large number that has recently met a demise in suspicious circumstances, with ties to the Clintons. I stress "partial" because new stiffs are coming in faster than closets can be found to hide bodies in! If even half of these can be tied to Mr. Bill, (Oh no!) then he is the number one mass murderer, serial killer in the HISTORY of America. And what's really weird is that he's our PRESIDENT! It's like having TED BUNDY in the WHITE HOUSE!


1. JAMES McDOUGAL - Bank Embezzlement crook, Clinton's convicted Whitewater partner. Died 3-8-98 of an apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement, serving 3-yr sentence for bank fraud. He was going to be a key witness in Ken Starr's investigation and died while the reporters who were covering him were away covering a sudden, new standoff in Waco, (which, when he died, suddenly went away.) Jim McDougal suffered a heart attack that was brought on by the diuretics forced on him. They took him out of solitary as he collapsed, then left him alone in the medical wing. Instead of attempting to defibrillate his heart with equipment on hand at the facility, he was taken on a LONG drive to John Peter Smith hospital. Not the closest hospital to the Fort Worth Federal Medical Center, JPS is a welfare hospital, where (in the words of one local,) "they let interns practice on deadbeats".

The single most damning fact to come out of the McDougal death was his injection with Lasix, a diuretic, to force his giving a urine sample for drug testing, even though McDougal was not a known drug case, and Lasix is contra-indicated in cases of heart disease. Lasix can cause excessive diuresis, blood volume reduction, circulatory collapse, and vascular thrombosis, or blood clots. If a matching potassium supplement is not administered at the same time, Lasix can kill. McDougal may have been taking the heart medication Digitalin (foxglove) which cannot be combined with Lasix. Several inmates had gone public with the claim that McDougal was given a heavy injection of Lasix right after he ate lunch, but the prison system has refused to allow those prisoners to be interviewed nor have they released McDougal's medical records.

NEW! The Fort Worth Star-Telegram acquired the official report of the McDougal death via a Freedom Of Information Act request, and report that doctors ignored McDougal's signs of imminent death.


2. SANDY HUME - Journalist. On Sunday, February 22nd, 1998, Sandy Hume, the 28 year old son of journalist Britt Hume, was reportedly found dead in his Arlington, Virginia home. Aside from the statement that this was an "apparent" suicide, there remains in place a total media blackout on this story, possibly out of concern that the actual facts will not withstand public scrutiny. Indeed, it was reported in Associated Press that the Arlington Police were not responding to any inquiries.

Hume was a reporter for The Hill magazine, newspaper about Congress for Congress, and had broken a major story in 1997 regarding the friction between House Speaker Newt Gingrich and a faction led by Representative Paxon (who mysteriously announced his resignation just 24 hours after Hume's death).

In addition, Sandy Hume had just joined the staff at Fox TV News and was just three weeks into a job that represented the pinnacle of his young career. Oddly enough, aside from echoing the one Associated Press story, the Fox News website has ignored the death of its newest commentator.

Sandy already had a reputation for getting the story that nobody else wanted to look at. It is worth noting that his death came hard on the heels of reports that "a reporter" was about to break a story confirming the White House's use of investigators to dig up dirt on critics and investigators.

It has recently been confirmed that the man who performed the as-yet- unreleased autopsy is none other than Dr. James C. Beyer, who has a record of concealing homicides behind a ruling of suicide. Kenneth Starr's "suicidologist" Dr. Alan L. Berman has waded in again and, as he did in the Foster death, ruled it "100% certain that this is a suicide and can be nothing else".

3. DANNY CASOLARO - Investigative Reporter, investigating Mena Airport CIA drug transport, Arkansas coke trade and CIA's INSLAW 'PROMIS' software. Warned his family that he'd learned too much, and that "they" would try to get him and not to believe it was suicide if he turned up dead. Found with slit wrists, apparent suicide in the middle of his investigation. Danny was a free-lance reporter and writer who was on to all the secrets of the "October Surprise", the BCCI banking scandal, the Secret Government OCTOPUS, and the infamous INSLAW super secret software that super spook William Casey had stolen from its inventor (so that CIA could sell it to banks and discover all the secret funds politicians have stashed in bank accounts across the world. PROMIS allow them not only find out how many dollars, they had the ability to make wire transfers and take the money back, and then they forced crooked politicos to leave office. Danny Casolaro had confided to pals that he had the real stuff on PROMIS, the CIA's OCTUPUS, MENA and how Clinton had worked for Bush and Reagan and Casey, the NSC and all those people hiding under the White House. His mistake was using a telephone which must have been bugged. He was found dead in a bathtub in a Sheraton Hotel room in Martinsburg, VA near DC, where he stayed while keeping appointments pertinent to his investigation. He had told his friends that 'they' would try to kill him and that if he died, not to believe it was suicide. He was found with his wrists slashed a dozen times. All his research materials were missing and have never been recovered.

Click on CASOLARO footnote, on last page, visit LIVE LINK to learn how a 5th column group stole back all of Vince Foster's Swiss stash of hard-earned Mossad Millions. (He was influence peddling as he and Hilary did at the Rose Law firm). When his moola disappeared from his account, his rage and threats ended up getting VINCE killed.


4. PAUL WILCHER - Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport, also an earlier REAGAN SCANDAL, called "the OCTOBER SURPRISE," found dead on a toilet June 22, 1993 in his Washington DC apartment. At the time of his death, Paul was investigating connections between the "October Surprise" during the 1980 federal election campaign and drug and gun-running out of Mena, Arkansas, as well as the BATF assault on the Waco, Texas Branch Davidians. Was planning on producing a television documentary on his findings. He had delivered a 105-page affidavit to Janet Reno detailing the evidence he had collected regarding the drug operation at Mena, just three weeks before his death. GAWD! HINDSIGHT is 20/20! You don't tell HER, bozo! That's like ratting out Hitler to Goebbels!

5. LARRY GUERRIN - killed in February 1987 while investigating the INSLAW case.6. ALAN STANDORF - An employee of the National Security Agency in electronic intelligence who leaked info to Danny Casalaro who was investigating INSLAW, BCCI, etc. Standorf's body was found in the backseat of a car at Washington National Airport on Jan 31, 1991.

7. DENNIS EISMAN - An attorney with information on INSLAW. Eisman was found shot to death on April 5, 1991.

8 thru 12. IAN SPIRO AND FAMILY - Spiro had supporting documentation for grand jury proceedings on the INSLAW case. His wife and 3 children were found murdered on November 1, 1992 in their home. They all died of gunshot wounds to the head. Ian's body was found several days later in a parked car in the Borego Desert. Cause of death? The ingestion of cyanide. Declared a murder/suicide.


13. CHRISTINE M. MIRZAYAN - Clinton Intern, died August 1st, l998. Her death went unnoticed by the world. She was beaten to death with a heavy object near Georgetown University. What makes us think BILL's thugs did it? In the pre-trial publicity surrounding Paula Jones lawsuit, Newsweek's Mike Isikoff dropped hints that a "former White House staffer" with the initial "M" was about to go public with her story of sexual harassment at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. They were LOOKING for the DIVINE MISS M, and sure enough, shortly afterwards, gunmen entered the Georgetown Washington D.C. Starbuck's and shot ---

14. MARY MAHONEY - This former White House intern was murdered July 1997 just after she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White House. An attractive 25 year old woman, Mary was a former White House Intern for Bill Clinton working as the Assistant Manager at Starbuck's. Sadly, Mary's two associate coffee clerks, Aaron Goodrich, 18 and Emory Evans, 25, were taken to a room and shot. Mary herself had five bullets in her, from at least two different guns, most likely with silencers. A total of ten shots were fired; none of them heard by neighbors in the densely populated Georgetown section. Mary was shot in the chest, her face, and in the back of the head. Someone wanted her very dead. Or to send a message. Even though more than $4000 remained in the store, the police have categorized the triple murder as a robber, even as they acknowledge the "execution style" killings.

There was no sign of forced entry, which means that the killers were let in (at least one hour after closing) by either Mary of one of the employees. That means that the killers included at least one person known to the victims or were very upper class types. One report is that the Starbuck's was still locked when the bodies were found the next morning. Now, ROBBERS don't bother locking doors!

Of course, As of this writing, Mike Isikoff's "former White House staffer" has finally surfaced and its NOT Mary Mahoney, or Christine Mirzayan but Monica Lewinsky. If the killing of Mary Mahoney was to Silence a "bimbo eruption", imagine how tragically wacky that the hitmen actually got the wrong two women! (Also, just how many of the interns was Clinton getting oral service from anyway??)

15. VINCENT FOSTER - THE MOST FAMOUS STIFF. White House Counsel, Hillary's longtime co-worker/friend, maybe co-depositor on her Swiss Accounts, maybe even lover, her closest associate at Little Rock's ROSE LAW FIRM, which would make THE FIRM in the "THE FIRM" MOVIE with TOM CRUISE look like a coven of PIXIES. ROSE FIRM was basically a bunch of greedy influence peddlers. i.e., "how much ya wanna pay to get this law through, or get to this politico?" Vince was mixed up with Israel, on their payroll, (fronting for Billary?) stashing cash in Switzerland, which was found out the week he died, 7/21/93 - Found dead in a public park in DC of a supposed suicide by gunshot. A suicide note was supposedly found a fews days later, in his briefcase, after his office had been entered by white house staff. The torn into pieces "suicide" note, (leaked despite official efforts to keep it from view) has since been revealed to be a forgery. The gun which he supposedly used to kill himself was reported to be still in his hand, but the person who first found the body reports that there was no gun at that time. Many irregularities surround the death and the investigation of it. Only print on gun not his. 3" exit hole in back top head but no brains on the ground. An FBI memo has surfaced dated the day after the date of the official autopsy, in which the autopsy official informs the FBI that there was NO exit wound. And Foster had an unreported gunshot wound to his neck which had nothing to do with hole on top. So everything is screwy as if a gang of people had all tried to do separate cover-ups.

Foster had intimate knowledge of the Clintons' personal finances. All Hillary's files were removed from his home hours after his death. Foster was implicated by this JUGGERNAUT investigation of their finances. Also, he'd had his own Swiss accounts raided, emptied. He'd reportedly made a phone call to Hillary just hours before his death. Foster was distraught that week and probably also had called Bill complaining. A supposed Fifth Column independent vigilante group had discovered his Swiss bank stash. Group was really a phalange of the FBI or CIA, which used the INSLAW software to penetrate Swiss banks then dethrone politicos for graft or CONTROL THEM with blackmail. Vince had almost certainly gone to Clinton demanding protection, threatening exposure.


16. RON BROWN - Minutes away from having to testify against Clinton. He was way high up, Secretary of Commerce and former Democratic National Committee Chairman, but they killed him and 35 other people. Said to have died by impact in a plane crash but pathologist close to the investigation reported that there was a hole in the back of Brown's skull resembling a gunshot wound! At the time of his death Brown was being investigated, had spoken publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors. His death brought to an end his ability to testify. As of this writing, Judicial Watch has petitioned for the investigation into on Brown's dealings to be expanded to include his death. (NOTE: Ron also belongs on the dead fund raisers list as that was his first job for Clinton.)

Regarding this crash, THE WALL STREET UNDERGROUND, (Nicholas A. Guerino was the newsletter publisher) compiled a detailed and revealing report. His evidence led him to the conclusion that the radio beacon guiding Air Force-2 was deliberately diverted to send the plane into the mountain. Among the incredible anomalies that he cites is the fact that, on orders from high, the customary air safety investigation of plane crashes was killed. Croatian, Russian, and French TV and the U.S. European command in Stuttgart, Germany announced that the 'black boxes' containing the flight date recorder and the cockpit voice recorder were recovered and delivered to the U.S. Marines. However, Pentagon brass later denied this and stated that Air Force-2 was not equipped with flight data and voice recorders (Interestingly, an LA talk radio station took a call from a man who identified himself as the electronics technical expert who stated that he personally installed the 'black boxes' in AirForce-2 and completely ridiculed the Pentagon statement that the plane that had carried Hillary Clinton less than two weeks earlier on her trip to Europe was suddenly not equipped with flight date and voice recorders. Also odd, Maintenance Chief Niko Jerkuic, in charge of the radio beacon that guided guided Air Force-2 into that mountain committed 'suicide' shortly after the crash by shooting himself in the chest. Cilipi's air traffic controller also commits suicide and the tapes of the control tower disappear. That makes 35 dead on the plane, 2 on ground. 37 that we're not going to put on the MAIN LIST of 85 dead. But there is a body we should count.

17. SHELLY KELLY - Air Force Stewardess who is riding in the tail of the plane, sustains only minor cuts and bruises, and was able to board a rescue helicopter without assistance. She later dies at the hospital from loss of blood. According to journalist Joe L. Jordan, an autopsy revealed a neat three-inch incision over her main femoral artery that was inflicted at least three hours after all her other cuts and bruises. Clinton hastily ordered all bodies of the victims to be cremated.

18. BARBARA WISE - Commerce Department Staffer. Died 11/29/96 - As the scandals continued to swirl around the Commerce Department, and most of all about John Huang, one of Hang's associates, Barbara Wise, was found dead in her locked office at the Department of Commerce, partially nude and covered with bruises. No cause of death has ever been announced. Oddly enough, following the discovery of her body, Bill Clinton made an unscheduled return to the White House from Camp David, claiming he needed a book of poetry in order to complete his inauguration speech. She was a looker so maybe Barbara belongs on the Babe list? Well, who says you can't belong to two lists at the same time?

19. CHARLES MEISSNER - Assistant Secretary of Commerce for International Economic Policy. Following Ron Brown's death, John Huang was placed on a Commerce Department contract that allowed him to retain his security clearance. Who gave it to him? Charles Meissner. Shortly thereafter, Charles Meissner died in the crash of a small plane.


20. VICTOR RAISER II - National Finance Co-Chairman, Clinton for President Campaign.

21. MONTGOMERY RAISER - Son of Victor. Both men died, 7-30-92, in a private plane crash in Alaska, en route to a fishing expedition. No cause was ever determined. Five others not connected to Clinton died with them. - DeeDee Meyers described Raiser as a "major player" in the Clinton organization. Victor Raiser was also chairman of Mobile Telecomm Technologies Corp., whose subsidiary, SkyTel Corp. is an international paging company used by federal police agencies such as the FBI. Victor Raiser was a Washington lawyer and he was counsel to the Washington law firm of Jones Day Reavis & Pogue until 1991. At his death, he was the national finance co-chairman of the Clinton for President Campaign and the campaign's press secretary. He and his wife had been friends of the Clintons for ten years. He was the past national finance chairman of the Democratic National Committee. He served on the boards of the Democratic Business Council and the Center for National Policy and the board of advisers of the Democratic Leadership Council. On May 29, 1993, President Clinton announced that he had selected Raiser's widow, Molly Raiser, 50, former Democratic co-chair of the Women's Campaign Fund, to be his protocol chief and stated that he planned to nominate her for confirmation as an ambassador.

The "No Good Deed Shall Go Unpunished" Society more CLINTON FUNDRAISERS

22. PAUL TULLY - Democratic National Committee Political Director. Died 9/24/92. Found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock, Arkansas of "unknown causes." No autopsy allowed. - Described by Clinton as a "dear friend and trusted advisor."

23. DUANE GARRETT - Radio Host and Al Gore fund raiser. Died: 7/26/95 - A lawyer and a talk show host for KGO-AM in San Francisco, Duane was the campaign finance chairman for Diane Feinstein's run for the senate, and was a friend and fundraiser for Al Gore. According to Garrett's lawyer; Garrett was under investigation for defrauding investors in Garrett's failed sports memorabilia venture. There was talk of a deal to evade prosecution. On July 26th, Garrett canceled an afternoon meeting with his lawyer because he had to meet some people at the S.F airport. Three hours later he was found floating in the bay under the Golden Gate Bridge.

24. HERSHEL FRIDAY - Attorney and Clinton fund raiser died March 1, 1994 when his plane exploded. I'm torn between putting him in the Dead Lawyer's Society and the Dead Fund Raisers. This man knew CLINTON and was a lawyer AND a fundraiser so he belongs on a list all his own. The Dumb Sonovabitch society. He statistically shoulda seen it coming.

25. ED WILLEY - Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the woods in Virginia of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed Willey died on the same day his grieving wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was involved in several Clinton fund raising events. Kathleen would have been killed if she'd given notice she was going public with her Bill tidbit, but she learned from her husband's mistake and DID NOT give notice. She smartly JUST WENT PUBLIC.

The Wisdom of NOT Keeping Little BLACK BOOKS Dept.

26. JERRY LUTHER PARKS - Head of Clinton's gubernatorial security team in Little Rock. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little Rock. died: 9/26/93 - Shot through the rear window of his car. The assailant then pulled around to the driver's side of Park's car and shot him three more times with a 9mm pistol. Traffic anxiety? Freeway sniper? Whaddya bet it was a BILLIE BOY HIT SQUAD! Parks' family reported that shortly before his death, they were being followed by unknown persons, and their home had been broken into (despite a top quality alarm system). When news of the discovery of Vincent Foster's body came over the news, Pa is reported to have said,"Bill Clinton is cleaning house". Parks had been compiling a dossier on Clinton's illicit activities. The dossier was stolen before he died.

27. JAMES BUNCH - Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had a "Black Book" of people containing names of influential people who visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas.

28. JAMES WILSON - Was found dead in May 1993 from an apparent hanging suicide, reported to have ties to Whitewater and files full of info.

29. JON PARNELL WALKER - Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust Corp. August 15, 1993. Was investigating Morgan Guarantee scandal. Mysteriously fell to his death from an apartment balcony. He was excited about this new apartment which was being fixed up for him, and was just visiting it, not living there yet, the same apartment which was alleged to have been a secret getaway which Foster may have visited.


30. KATHY FERGUSON - Ex-wife of CLINTON regular, Trooper Danny Furguson. Died 5/94 of a supposed gunshot suicide in her living room. Bullet in head. There was a suicide note found by the body. However, friends were surprised at having noticed nothing wrong previously. And even more curious, found nearby were several packed suitcases, as if she expected she was going somewhere. A lot of these Clinton stiffs have had other things on their mind when they suddenly say 'oops, maybe I should kill myself.' Kathy was the former wife of Arkansas state trooper Danny Ferguson, who is alleged to have escorted Paula Corbin Jones to the hotel room for her alleged episode of sexual harassment by then-Governor Clinton. Ferguson's wife was reported as a possible corroborating witness for Ms. Jones. Danny Ferguson is a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in Paula Corbin Jones's sexual harassment suit. His ex-wife was reported as a corroborating witness for Ms. Jones.

31. BILL SHELTON - Arkansas state Trooper and fiancee of Kathy Ferguson. Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancee, he was found dead in June, 1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the grave site of his fiancee. His crime? Making a fuss about his girl getting murdered.

32. CALVIN WALRAVEN - 24 years old, Walraven was a key witness in Jocelyn Elder's son's drug case. Ten days after Elder's son was convicted of trafficking in cocaine, Walraven was found dead in his apartment with a gunshot blast to the head. Tim Hover, a Little Rock police spokesman says "no foul play is suspected."

33. NEIL MOODY - son of Vince Foster's Widow's new husband. Died Aug. 25, 1996 Following Vincent Foster's murder, Lisa Foster married James Moody, a judge in Arkansas, on Jan 1, 1996. Near the time Susan McDougal first went to jail for contempt, Judge Moor's son, Neil died in a car crash. There were other reports that Neil Moody had discovered something very unsettling among his stepmother's private papers and was threatening to go public with it just prior to the beginning of the Democratic National Convention. He was alleged to have been talking to Bob Woodward of the Washington Post about a blockbuster story. Witnesses said they saw Neil Moody sitting in his car arguing with another person just prior to HIS old clunker CAR SUDDENLY SPEEDING OFF OUT OF CONTROL AND HITTING A BRICK WALL.

34. RON MILLER - Died October 12th 1997, investigated by authorities over the sale of his company, Gage Corp. to Dynamic Energy Resources, Inc. was the man who tape recorded CLINTON FUND RAISERS Gene and Nora Lum and turned those tapes (and other records) over to congressional oversight investigators. The Lums were sentenced to prison for campaign finance violations, using "straw donors" to conceal the size of their contributions to various candidates. Indeed, Dynamic Energy Resources, Inc. had hired Ron Brown's son Michael solely for the purpose of funneling $60,000 through him to the Commerce Secretary, according to Nolanda Hill's testimony. Reportedly a healthy man, Ron suddenly took ill on October 3rd, 97 and steadily worsened until his death 9 days later. (This pattern fits Ricin poisoning which only intelligence uses as it leaves no traces. KGB uses it. Common Castor seed plant. Owing to the strangeness of the illness, doctors at the Integris Baptist Medical Center referred the matter to the Oklahoma State Medical Examiner's Office. The Oklahoma State Medical Examiner's Office promptly ran tests on samples of Ron Miller's blood, but has refused to release the results or even to confirm that the tests were ever completed but Ricin is very evaporative.


35. BARRY SEAL - Drug running pilot out of Mena Arkansas, now known to have been a drug runner for the CIA, reportedly kept in contact with Bill Clinton's head of security at the governor's mansion, Raymond "Buddy" Young, the ex rodeo clown who is now the number 2 man at FEMA.

Following his fall from CIA grace, Barry was sentenced to live at a YMCA by a judge who also prohibited Barry Seal to either have any guns or to employ any bodyguards. Corruption doesn't become any more obvious than this. Barry was gunned down with machine gun fire in the parking lot of the YMCA.

In violation of the court order, Barry had hired bodyguards who worked a rotation schedule. But the bodyguard who was to be there when Barry was killed never showed up. That bodyguard was a former associate (meaning drug pilot) of Barry's named William "Bear" Bottoms. Bottoms continues to this very day to prowl the internet insisting that there never was any drug running operation at Mena, Arkansas. (This last fact according to video producer Daniel Hopsicker, whose speciality is the MENA AIRPORT SCANDAL, and who has filmed the mother of the two children murdered there) and has website

36. Anonymous Mena Aircraft Mechanic - Barry Seal's aircraft mechanic at Mena (name unknown as of this time) died March 21, 1995 of an "overdose of mouthwash". (?) Must be a redneck thang. Regarded by local authorities as an obvious homicide.


37. KEVIN IVES & 38. DON HENRY - Known as "The boys on the track" case. Reports say the two 16 year old children may have stumbled upon the Mena Arkansas airport drug operation. Controversial case where initial report of death was due to falling asleep on railroad track, Aug 23, l987. The State Medical Examiner, Fahmy Malak said so. This coroner turns up time and time again, lying for the state. Later when parents made a fuss, forensic reports showed the 2 boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Later it was determined that Kevin died from a crushed skull prior to being placed on the tracks. Don had been stabbed in the back. Rumors indicate that they might have stumbled upon part of the Mena drug operation which went on when Clinton was Governor.

BUT WAIT, the full cast of MENA ain't OVER. What about the EXTRAS? "The MENA EIGHT." The following Arkansas citizens were all MURDERED, just for volunteering that they had INFORMATION ON THE "two DEAD BOYS" CASE that they volunteered to give a grand jury.

39. KEITH CONEY - Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck while being chased by a car. Ruled traffic accident. July, 1988. Keith had information on the Ives/Henry deaths.

40. KEITH McKASKLE - Died stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988. McKaskle had information on the Ives/Henry deaths, had told his family someone wasout to kill him and told them "good bye".

41. GREGORY COLLINS - Greg had information on the Ives/Henry deaths. He died from a gunshot blast to the face in January 1989. Declared a suicide.

42. PAUL OLSON - A Federal witness in investigations to drug money corruption in Chicago politics, Paul had just finished 2 days of FBI interviews when his plane ride home crashed, killing Paul and 130 others on Sept 8 1994. The Sept. 15, 1994 Tempe Tribune newspaper reported that the FBI suspected that a bomb had brought down the airplane.

43. JEFF RHODES - He had information on the deaths of Ives, Henry & McKaskle. His burned body was found in a trash dump in April 1989. He died of a gunshot wound to the head and there was some body mutilation, specifically that his hands and feet had been partially sawn off, leading to the speculation that he was tortured prior to being killed. The body was then burned.

44. JAMES MILAN - had information on the Ives & Henry deaths. He was decapitated. The state Medical examiner, Fahmy Malak, initially ruled death due to "natural causes," claiming that the victim's small dog had eaten the head, which was later recovered from a trash bin several blocks away.

45. RICHARD WINTERS - was a suspect in the deaths of Ives & Henry, and had offered to cooperate and give INFORMATION. SEE DUMB DICK, SEE DUMB DICK DIE. He was killed by a shotgun blast to the face during a "robbery" in July 1989 which was subsequently proven to be a setup. Parenthetically, Dan Harmon, the Prosecutor who Winters reportedly made the offer to, has since been implicated in the Kevin/Ives deaths and is now in jail for running his office as a racket.

46. JORDAN KETTLESON - had information on the Ives & Henry deaths. He was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup in June 1990. Have you ever heard of any law case in HISTORY where 8 witnesses died? Some serious cui bonum here. That's "who benefits" in Latin, meaning, who would go to all that trouble UNLESS they benefitted?



These four died in the SAME MINUTE, 2/28/93 "executed" by gunfire in the Waco, Texas assault on the Branch Davidians. - All four were examined by a "private doctor" and determined to have died from nearly identical wounds to the left temple, so-called execution style. According to Linda Thompson, videotapes and other evidence indicates that none died from guns fired by Branch Davidians.

In his address to employees of the Treasury Department in the Cash Room on March 18, 1993, Clinton said: "My prayers and I'm sure yours are still with the families of all four of the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents who were killed in WACO -- Todd McKeehan and Conway Le Bleu of New Orleans; Steve Willis of Houston, and Robert Williams from my hometown of Little Rock. Three of those four were assigned to my security during the course of the primary or general election." However, the Little Rock, Arkansas office of the ATF confirmed that all four had at one point been bodyguards for Bill Clinton, three while he was campaigning for President, and while he had been governor of Arkansas.

51. STAFF SGT. BRIAN HANLEY (or HANEY or Hassey) - Clinton bodyguard.

52. MARINE SGT. TIM SABEL - Clinton bodyguard 53. MAJ. WILLIAM S. BARKLEY, JR. - Clinton Bodyguard 54. CAPT. SCOTT REYNOLDS - Clinton bodyguard

This group died 5/19/93 when their helicopter crashed in the woods near Quantico, Va. Reporters were barred from the site, and the head of the fire department responding to the crash described it by saying, "Security was tight," with "lots of Marines with guns." A videotape made by a firefighter was seized by the Marines. All four men had escorted Clinton on his flight to the carrier Roosevelt shortly before their deaths. A witness, out in the woods, said that the bodies had been burnt by a ray of energy coming from the ground, and had caught on fire before the helicopter crashed. They were burnt from within, without burning their skin or hair. Like a microwave cooks meat.


55. ALAN G. WHICHER - Oversaw Clinton's Secret Service detail. In October 1994, Whicher was transferred to the Secret Service field office in the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. Whatever warning was given to the BATF agents in that building (none of them came to work that day) did not reach Alan Whicher, who died in the bomb blast of April 19th 1995.

56. UNKNOWN SECRET SERVICE AGENT - killed when the C-130 carrying the Presidential Limos crashed near Jackson Hole, Wyoming.


Next we have a little group of NINE military OFFICERS who were with Mr. Bill ("Oh no!") on one of his 'on board, military' vacations:

57. DEPUTY COMMANDING GENERAL MAJOR GENERAL WILLIAM ROBERTSON - V Corps, Europe 58. COL WILLIAM DENSBERGER - Corps Chief of Operations and Plans 59. COL ROBERT KELLY - V Corps Chief of Intelligence Spec. 60. GARY RHODES - Crew Chief

This group died together on 2/23/93 - All were killed when their Army UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter crashed in Weisbaden, Germany. No cause was ever determined. - V Corps figured prominently in the US Bosnia- Serbia peacekeeping operations, along with the carrier Roosevelt.

These 4 officers, a reporter and 8 other government employees associated with Clinton's visit to the Roosevelt all died within 4 months of each other. Were their phones tapped and did someone hear them gossip about the prexy's on-board vacation?

I don't have the names of the other 8 so I'm not adding them to our number sequence. I have put together every list on the internet. What if these 8 unnamed, were one of the named? So I'm being ultra fair to Clinton here. I'm not stacking up MORE bodies than he actually is responsible for But I AM GOING TO ADD THE FIVE NAVY AVIATORS. This is # 61., 62., 63, 64, 65., as they are reputed to be Five Navy aviators who were Clinton bodyguards/escorts (names not determined) died: 3/26/93 - Not the date of the other helicopter death. And that tag 'navy aviators' is unique enough to add them. They all died in a crash of an E-2C Hawkeye in Italy. So that wasn't the group in Quantico though the deaths were a month apart. The crash occurred shortly after the plane was "waved off" from a landing attempt on the Carrier Roosevelt, due to a "foul deck". -

All five men had been Clinton's escorts during Clinton's visit to the Roosevelt 2 weeks prior. Three other men, who had flown Clinton to the Roosevelt for that visit also died later in a separate helicopter crash. As tags weren't clear, I'm not adding THOSE THREE, either.


We've had a lot of witnesses of one kind or another. Here are some more, unique in that they were about to become WHISTLEBLOWERS.

66. JAMES BUNCH - Influential Texan. Died from a gunshot suicide, similar to Vince Foster. - Was discovered to have a "little black book" containing the names of many influential persons in Texas and Arkansas who visited certain prostitutes.

67. JOHN WILSON - Former Washington DC Council member, Died 5/18/93. Found dead from an apparent hanging suicide. Claimed to have info on Whitewater and was threatening to talk.



The first two were Attorneys representing Clinton best guy pal Tycoon Dan Lassater in a case concerning alleged financial misconduct so had heard puhlenty... died by jumping out a window of a tall building January 8th, 1994. Lasater, his client was a convicted drug distributor. Baugh, Shelton's law partner, was "suicided" one month later on 2/9/94. Huggins was Partner in Memphis law firm investigating Madison Guaranty. Reported to have succumbed to viral pneumonia, his 300 page report has never been released.


71. DR. RONALD ROGERS - Dentist from Arkansas, killed in plane crash as he was on his way to an interview with a "London Sunday Telegraph" reporter to reveal some Clinton dirt. Maybe Bill didn't FLOSS?

72. DR. STANLEY HEARD - Clinton's MOTHER's doctor, made Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small plane crash Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton's advisory council personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather and brother. Died 9/10/93 in a plane crash outside Dulles airport, after their aircraft, rented after Heard's personal craft developed troubles, crashed while attempting an emergency landing after reporting a fire on board. Let's repeat that. They took off in a plane. It developed problems. They got it back to the airport. They rented a new plane. They took off in the new rented plane and IT developed a problem. On the way back to the airport it crashed. - Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton's advisory council, also personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather, and brother. Whatever he knew never got HEARD --- except on a tapped phone!

73. STEVE DICKSON - Legal Counsel to that Chiropractor, Dr. Heard. His only sin, being with Unheard HEARD. Should we count DR STAN? NAHHHHH. He's probably someone GOD wanted dead! God Clinton that is. What the hell, let's count him, too.


74. WILLIAM COLBY - Director of Central Intelligence (retired) Died 4-27-96, had been the DCI from 1973 to 1976 under Nixon and Ford who were the top New world Order Rockf'lr flunkies! As Was the Kiss of Death Henry the K! "Ve Vill Make DERE Economy SCREAMMM". Certainly knew where all bones were buried as this was the group that wanted the 'one world after all' with China a capitalist trading partner and 3 billion chinese paying taxes to the world banks, an agenda that has taken TEN prexies to deliver.

At age 76, Colby had found a new career and had just started writing for "Strategic Investment Newsletter". They covered the Vince Foster "suicide" in detail. Its editors hired three renowned handwriting experts to investigate Foster's suicide note, which hadn't been found when his briefcase was first searched, but later materialized, torn into pieces, with no fingerprints on any of the pieces. Upon comparing this document with others of Foster's writings, these experts declared it was a forgery, and a not very good one at that. So Colby was ratting out his spook pals... This had worried many insiders in the intelligence community who felt that Colby had already divulged too many of the CIA's secrets in the preceding years. Indeed, his dismissal by Ford was because of his over- cooperation with Congressional investigations into CIA wrongdoing.

It was Colby who had revealed to Congress the plans to kill Fidel Castro, the spying, phone-tapping on American citizens (in direct violation of the CIA charter) and the conducting of biological tests by the CIA on unsuspecting citizens, and agency's using human guinea pigs for mind-control experiments involving LSD, as we saw in CONSPIRACY THEORY movie with Mel Gibson, MK-Ultra program. Colby was in charge of the infamous Operation Phoenix during the Vietnam War, in which more than 20,000 South Vietnamese citizens -- supposedly Vietcong sympathizers -- were rounded up, tortured and executed. Must have found religion late in life. Phoenix was run by the infamous Hanoi station, same group that brought back tons of heroin sewn inside G.I's bodies for the Mafia to distribute. THE ENTIRE CIA HATED COLBY, however, he died while Bill was prexy so he goes on the list. According to the original CNN report, Colby was reported missing by neighbors who "recovered" his canoe, by one story from under the dock at Colby's house, by another report, 1/4 of a mile downstream from Colby's home. Colby was by all report a methodical, tidy man, yet police found his home unlocked, his computer on, and a partly eaten dinner on the table. The official story is that Colby just put down his fork and decided to drop everything and go canoeing. On Monday, May 6th, Colby's body was found just 20 yards from where his canoe had been recovered, in an area that had been thoroughly searched several times by helicopters and search teams. Most notable about the body was the absence of a life jacket, which according to his wife, Colby always wore on the water. Inferred is that a well known, old co-worker called him and said come on down to the river and talk to me. Colby was not really planning on canoeing.

75. FLORENCE MARTIN - Spook # 2. Accountant subcontracting to CIA. Flo died of 3 bullets to the head. Her work was related to the Barry Seal case. At the time of her death she had the account numbers and PIN for a bank account in the Cayman's in the name of Barry Seal which held 1.4 million dollars. Immediately following her death, the money was moved to someplace in the Virgin Islands.


76. JOHNNY FRANKLIN LAUGHTON, JR.- Died March 29, 1998. In the spring of 1997, a tornado ripped through some junked cars at Johnny's Tranny Shop and opened up the trunk of a car that proved to have a box of Whitewater records in it, including a copy of a $27,000 cashiers check drawn on Madison and payable to one Bill Clinton. Johnny Franklin Laughton, Jr. realized what he was looking at and here's the funny part......he turned the box of documents over to the FBI. Is that a screamer? but wait. There's more. According to police, a year later, Laughton and a friend hit a telephone pole at a high rate of speed after their car had become airborne and left the road. They had driven less than 1/4 of a mile at the time of the impact, in a '73 Pontiac Trans Am meaning this clunker got the TAKEOFF ratio of a brand new Ferrari.

This manner of death is similar to the single vehicle accidents that killed Paula Grober, and Neil Moody and Karen Silkwood. Single car accidents in clunkermobiles going warp speeds.


77. COL. JAMES SABOW - Died 1991, supposedly about to blow the whistle on drug running activity taking place on the naval base where he was stationed, Col. James Sabow was found by his wife in the backyard of their home with his head blown off with a shotgun. The Navy ruled it a suicide. In all, more than 40 deaths by individuals concerned with drug traffic on military bases have been declared as suicides despite evidence that MURDER was involved. I think we've all heard the DRUGS AND GOVERNMENT rumors recently. Hey, this is more than a specious rumor, friends. It is a 50 year old American tradition. Footnote and LIVE LINK to clickable URL proving CIA has been dealing drugs for 50 years at end..

78. ERIC BUTERA - An informant who came forward offering information regarding the murder of White House intern Mary Mahoney. He was promptly sent into a known crack house to make an undercover buy for the police and there was beaten to death by unknown assailants.

79. MAYNARD WEBB - Owned a small aircraft repair business, and had stumbled on several aircraft whose tail numbers were being changed on a regular basis. Was about to go public when he walked head first into a spinning propeller.


80. SUZANNE COLEMAN - Reportedly had an affair with Billy when he was attorney general. Died of "suicide" with gunshot wound to the back of her head. No autopsy allowed. Was 7 months pregnant at time of her death and had told friends it was Bill Clinton's child.

81. PAULA GROBER - Clinton's speech interpreter for the deaf. Died 12/9/92 in a one-car accident with no known Karen Silkwood or Princess Diana. Her body was thrown 33 feet from the car, indicating a very high speed. A very attractive women, Paula traveled extensively with Clinton from 1978 until her death. Clinton, through a spokesman, called Gober's death "a great personal loss." He also said, "Hillary and I extend our sincere sympathy to Paula's family. I had the privilege of (ahem) 'working' with her over many years."

82. JUDY GIBBS - Arkansas professional good ole girl and lady of the night, belonged to a house that regularly blackmailed gentlemen clients. Had just told Police she'd cooperate in a probe on local cocaine selling. Both Clinton's bodyguard and her family say she was intimate with Clinton. She had been a Penthouse Playmate was so HOT that her house burned down with her in it.


83. DON ADAMS - Died Jan 7 1997. Long before Whitewater's land flips made the Clinton's circle of friends rich, many of the same players had been involved in a similar land swindle in Branson. Don Adams was a lawyer in Arkansas who got involved trying to help the people who were being swindled out of their life savings. He was found missing. Then he was found dead. Muy misterioso. Branson has Clinton fingerprints all over it so let's COUNT this stiff! As coke was a food staple in Little Rock during Clinton's Camelot there, and his rich buddies were into it, and busted for it, and coke makes users greedy, deadly unemotional, cold and cruel, paranoic and irritable we deduce that Bill's death squads were coked up back in the 70's and are coked up still.

84. JIM WILHITE - Vice Chairman, Arkla, Inc. died: 12/21/92 - Died in a one-person skiing accident. - Wilhite had extensive ties with Clinton and Mack McLarty, with whom he visited by telephone just hours before his death.

85. LANCE HERNDON - this Clinton Appointee was found BLUDGEONED to DEATH in his bed. A prominent entrepreneur who received a presidential appointment in 1995 Lance Herndon, a 41 year old computer specialist, appeared to have died in his Atlanta mansion's bedroom, under the bedcovers, from a blow to the head. Mr. Herndon had not been shot or stabbed and there was no evidence of forced entry or theft. The home had an elaborate security system. Herndon's relatives said they unbolted the front door to gain entry into the home and discovered his bloody body under the bed covers.

Herndon founded ACCESS INCORPORATED, (anyone know anything about them? Write us) an Atlanta based information systems consulting firm once listed by Inc. Magazine as one of the nation's fasted growing private companies.

President Clinton had appointed Mr. Herndon to the high level White House Conference on Small Business, part of Ron Brown's Dept of Commerce. Jim Quinn at brought up quite an interesting point about the WH data base. Pressure is apparently being applied to the contractors and subcontractors who implemented the database and the phone network in the Whitehouse which tied the database to several other databases. There has been the assertion that Lance Herndon, a computer database specialist from Atlanta, may have been murdered because of his work on the White House Data Base. He died in the period when the WH phone records disappeared, containing hour of calls in dispute, within days of Janet Reno handing over the brewing WH data base scandal to Kenneth Starr. The man who finally incriminated NIXON had been a tekkie who'd installed sophisticated equipment. They weren't going to let History repeat itself.


GARY JOHNSON - lawyer who lived next door to Gennifer Flowers' apt. Familiar with what was going on inside. i.e. visits from Bill, and of course, her gossip to him. Not dead, but beaten near death and left for dead. Had security videotapes of Clinton entering Gennifer Flowers' apartment. His tapes were taken. On 26 June 1992, he was severly beaten to the point that his spleen had to be removed.

DENNIS PATRICK - Court clerk. Had millions of dollars laundered through his account at Lasater & Co without his knowledge. Four attempts on his life. He should get together with that guy in I LOVE YOU TO DEATH who owned the pizza parlor. Imagine this patsy being alive. Somebody invested tens of millions of dollars, that he did not own, through his account at Lasater & Co. Lasater was a bigtime coke dealer with Tyson Chicken tycoon, and were laundering coke cash. Patrick has spoken to FBI agents and Fiske's taskforce but remember, Starr predecessor FISKE was always working for the Intelligence group that runs Clinton and foxes don't really turn in other foxes fer eating hens.

L.J. DAVIS - Reporter investigating Rose Law Firm for stuff on the C's, attacked at his hotel room in Little Rock. His notes were stolen. He wrote an article for the New Republic concerning Whitewater. Davis was attacked in Arkansas on 14 February 1994, but survived head injuries, though some of his papers concerning his investigation into Whitewater were stolen, including a "list of contacts," and a "critical document." Based on a mysterious phone call he received before the beating, he suspects that his modem transmission (you tekkies check THIS out!) of his story was intercepted (ie. that his phone was tapped). Davis is a contributing editor for "Harper's" magazine and does free-lance writing for many publications.

MURDOCH - a "New York Post" Reporter, assaulted in Little Rock while he was there collecting information on a story he wrote about Whitewater.

LARRY NICHOLS - Former official in AR. and author of "The Clinton Chronicles." A terrific Super VIDEO is available from him. The man who broke many of the Clinton scandal stories. Several attempts on his life.

RUSSELL WELCH - an Arkansas cop, drug investigator trying to prove highly placed men were involved in coke trafficking, infected with military grade anthrax, lucky to have been diagnosed correctly, narrowly escapes death.


THIS JUST IN: Death #86. (#123 if you count Ron Brown's fellow passengers). Theodore R. Williams - brother of Betty Currie, Clinton's private secretary. Ted was run off a highway after being hit by a truck in December l997. He got out of his wrecked car, climbed up an embankment to the highway, and then another truck hit him, killing him instantly. This was just A MONTH before Betty Currie was scheduled to testify about Billy's Oval (Ovum?) Office doings. Betty's other brother, Lee Williams, had been beaten severely and hospitalized the August before.


DAN SHORT - Arkansas cocaine bank President - Missing. Took local bank into bankruptcy, told pals he was laundering cash for the Arkansas Coke Cartel, next day he and 71k are missing and someone goes to great lengths to provide a body but dental records prove it's not his. No one knows where HE went.

______________ 86 PEOPLE IN ALL HAVE PERISHED IN THE CLINTON INVESTIGATIVE PROCESS, five of them children !!!! We didn't count two croatian airport guys at the Ron Brown crash OR the 35 co-passengers, which would have brought the grand tally up to 122 dead. And we left off another dozen soldiers because they had no names. We have been very conservative here, in only picking the people Clinton actually caused to be dead. We actually took Admiral Boorda off this list where other reports had him, because his suicide death involved the Mossad (who shot him) over convicted Israeli spy Pollard but not we can't see how this tied in to Clinton. If you know something, call us.

Anyway, the parade of corpses isn't over! When will the fat lady finally sing???? Oh, excuse me, it's the end of the Millenium and she finally HAS! Monica, Honey? Chubs? Keep warbling! You're the best thing that has ever happened to the 20th Century right up there with PC's and the INTERNET. We wish you and Linda Tripp luck at surviving this whole thing. If an angel like you can bring this Stalin down, with a touch of your pinkie, there must be a God in Heaven.

**** NOTE to READER, if you want to save this article, CLICK ON "FILE" THEN "SAVE FILE" then give it a name. Want to "SEND FILE?" that's a possibility, too. SEND THIS whole piece TO YOUR FRIENDS so that this tidal wave of inappropriate commiseration with "Oh No! Mr Bill!" will STOP!! Hitler was cute. Stalin was a hunk. What do LOOKS have to do with anything?

The above article gathered by an informed Starr-gazer in L.A. who thinks we should elect a non-cute group of caring, dedicated persons to be president: Noam Chomsky, Ralph Nader, or Jerry Brown, Michael Moore, Gore Vidal, The Berrigans, Tom Hayden. More suggestions for this group are welcomed.

P.S. if you want more files on the CLINTON arm of the NSC/CIA which is a proven, Death-dealing, Drug-transporting group serving the Oligarchs with their DIRTY MONEY FOR DIRTY TRICKS, their cash-raising preventing money trails back to the Rockflrs'* (and to the other 13 families'). This New World Order "One World After All " MAI/ NAFTA world has been built on assasination, death, ghetto drug addictions from the mid 40's. If you want to see how and through WHOM this has been going on since WWII, go to to read all the details proving how LONG the CIA and before them the OSS have been dealing drugs, not to enrich themselves but to pay for covert dirty tricks without borrowing from the oligarchs. They did not want money trails to lead back to the oligarch-run banking, IMF, world slave colony agenda. Read the truth about Casolaro stumbling on this OCTUPUS and on these crazy PROMIS software driven CIA bank raids. Read of Vince's battle with the CIA, their emptying his Swiss bank accounts the week of his death at and there you will find the details that round out this picture of the Agency that has been moving Bill like a pretty Chess Pawn since Winthrop Rock'flr discovered him back in AR where Winnie was gov, and made him a RHODES SCHOLAR.

* deliberate spelling error done to confound search engines of the oligarch overlords and their paid hacker spies who monitor the net.

This report was partially sourced and assembled from many net sources including Rivero, Russell Stepanchak, etc.

-- Andy (, January 29, 1999.

That's way too much smoke for there not to be a fire.

-- Nikoli Krushev (, January 29, 1999.

yeah and he has an illigitimate son by a black protitute...right...

Clinton's main concern with life is getting his wick wet. Some of the people listed above may have been murdered, but hey, shit happens. Of course the mafia and its links to governemnt exists. Home many of Regan and Bush's "associates" met an untimely demise?

-- a (a@a.a), January 29, 1999.

Thank You E....for bringing the subject up

And Thank You Andy for all the pertinent info............

I realize it's a lot for some to digest.......but it's very encouraging to know that there are several (on this forum) who already comprehend........


-- Paul & Sandy Stambaugh (, January 29, 1999.

Andy, thanks.

For Arlin and Elbow Grease and any other christians who may be tweaked off: I don't think believing that the Bible is the inerrant word of God -or believing anything- is traitorous. You have the right to preach and teach and spread the word, whether christian, communist, or Amway salesman. When I refer to christian reconstructionism as traitorous, I'm refering to its stated purpose to supplant constitutional democracy with a theocratic state. I should add that Gary North "saved my life" with his Y2k material, and I like some of his writings on the economy. If I met him I would thank him and shake his hand. But I think we should all view his co-option of religion for political gain as unworthy of our consideration at best. You have the right to preach; I have the right to say that your religion is nonsense. I even have the right to quote the words of Jesus Christ, telling you to go to your closet and pray. The louder you are, the more judgemental politically ambitious and insistent, the less I will respect you and your faith, and the more I will put it in the same class as communism, or Amway, or any other cult that is trying to take over the world (starting with my local school board. In my county, christian fundamentalists have accused teachers of secretly being witches, because they used a literature text containing traditional stories from other cultures - with ghosts, wizards, the usual. This group had financial backing from Falwell's "moral majority"). Your religion is a cult to me, one among many. I see fundamentalists campaigning for censorship, presuming to lable people as saved or damned, calling all other faiths satan-inspired, etc.. They act like they have no aquaintance with the teachings of Christ - OR the U.S. Constitution. If there's any doubt that fundamentalists can be traitorous, check this out:

THAT'S what I'm talking about. Okay? Okay. Now go to your closet and pray - or preach on a street corner. But if you want to "take back America," don't expect me to view this ambition as divinely inspired and blessed with Almighty God's approval. We all still remember what happened the last time nations were controlled by churches. And we're ready to stop it.


-- E. Coli (, January 30, 1999.

>After 33 years living in Latin America I know first hand how dictators work and I tell you now this is what Clinton is trying to do. First to rupture the morale of the country, then eliminate the middle class, and finally put the military in control. So far Clinton has only to put the military in charge! He's done the rest.

_Hate_ to be a party-pooper, but of the three steps you list, none has yet to happen at all. The morale of this country has not been ruptured, and the middle class has not been eliminated, so your "He's done the rest" is glaringly false.

I notice that all you conspiricists have tiptoed around those issues. You really shouldn't have mentioned them in the first place.

Such gaping logic holes leave your fumings looking rather silly. I advise that next time you refrain from mentioning factors such as morale and the middle class for which there is no evidence of destruction -- your fantasies fare better that way, producing less cognitive dissonance in your readers.

-- No Spam Please (, January 30, 1999.


NSP>none has yet to happen at all.

... should have been "none has yet happened at all."

-- No Spam Please (, January 30, 1999.


The Moral Majority is neither. Hasn't Jerry ever heard of GLUTTONY?

-- Uncle Deedah (, January 30, 1999.


You created your "christian" strawman, and tarred us all with your brush. If you have a problem with Christian Reconstructionism, *focus on that and that alone!" That was *my* point. But the URL, the references to Falwell, et al and "Your religion is a cult to me, one among many." prove the lie; your brush is intentionally much broader.. This is at odds with your position as Objective Defender and Interpreter of the Constitution. You've got your own axe to grind. Clearly, your implication is that Christians have no right to be politically active. Well, excuse me, your Eliteness, Have I not the same right to say to you, "Go into *your* closet and pray" ?

Having said that, I'd like to ask you: Have you ever met a self-proclaimed witch? I have. The thoughts, the attitudes, beliefs and practices of such a person are extremely unsettling. There is a deep hatred and bitterness for (even) nominal Christianity. There is an almost self-destructive bitterness that presents itself in conversation. I have *felt* the malevalence, and I have no doubt whatsoever of the outcome if witches became a political force. "Tolerance" as you know it would be no more than a euphemism. Be *very* careful whom you defend and whom you seek to tear down. The last may be worse than the first.

Now, maybe I've let a sheltered life, but in the half century of my existence, I don't "still remember the last time nations were controlled by churches." Is this some kind of past-life or racial memory? Or is your imprecision with words on a par with your political and religious intolerance?

-- Elbow Grease (, January 31, 1999.

Elbow Grease:

>>You've got your own axe to grind. Clearly, your implication is that Christians have no right to be politically active.

No, E.G., I would die for your right to preach the gospel. I would fight right along side you. Christians have the right to be politically active, no question. But here's my point: when politically ambitious people use their religion for political gain, it cheapens that faith. It makes that faith a tool for controlling people's hearts and minds. And I will take it apart analytically if it's used against me, or against the Constitution. If you are not content to merely practice your religion, and you enter it in the marketplace of ideas, expect competition!

If you want to champion christianity as a religion, clean house. Don't defend pharisees and terrorists, and you won't be tarred with my brush (it's mere ink, not tar, btw). When supposedly middle-of-the-road christians apologize for abortion clinic bombers, they are sympathizing with terrorists - those who have chosen a violent, extra-legal, extra-constitutional route for changing the law. They are supporting treason. Both Falwell and Pat Robertson have done some fancy dancing along this razor's edge. I'm not isolated from the christian community. I'm aware that many evangelists are highly impatient with the democratic process, and are not content merely to change the culture through persuasion. There is talk of "war." Many others (usually those most scripturally focused) are concerned primarily with their own salvation - so I'm not criticizing all christians. There is a lot of sympathy expressed for clinic bombers and assasins, and a lot of unwholesome focus on condemning others' supposed immorality - in direct contradiction to the teachings of Christ.

>>Have you ever met a self-proclaimed witch? I have. The thoughts, the attitudes, beliefs and practices of such a person are extremely unsettling. There is a deep hatred and bitterness for (even) nominal Christianity. There is an almost self-destructive bitterness that presents itself in conversation. I have *felt* the malevalence, and I have no doubt whatsoever of the outcome if witches became a political force."Tolerance" as you know it would be no more than a euphemism. Be *very* careful whom you defend and whom you seek to tear down. The last may be worse than the first.

The last witch burning in North America happened in the 1880s. Before that, millions were tortured and burned, over centuries, in the name of Christ. The "wars of religion" scoured Europe for hundreds of years. Literal rivers of blood were spilled in the name of Jesus. Indiginous people in this country were branded the "spawn of satan" and murdered with impunity. It is very, very clear what fundamentalist christians will do if given political control. I've met a lot of adherents of various nature religions, of many different cultures. I have met buddhist lamas and South American Shamen/healers. They worship God as found in nature. Few call themselves "witches." According to fundamentalist christians, these people are SATANIC, and practitioners of witchcraft, a priori, for worshipping nature. There's over a thousand years of historical precedent for what christians would do to these people if they weren't given the constitutional right to worship as they pleased. They look at christians like jews look at nazis, and with good reason! We're not talking about your brief "50 years" of life. We're talking about the uses to which christianity has been put FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE YEARS IT HAS BEEN PRACTICED. Study the history of your religion. Read about the crusades, the pogroms, the inquisition, the torture, the burnings, the public beatings and humiliation for minor infractions, the genocide of native americans, and the criminalization of their religion and culture on expressly christian grounds. Read Cotton Mathers' "The Hammer of Witches." Read "A History of Torture." For those with pagan beliefs, THIS is christian history - as viewed from the OTHER end of the red-hot poker...

And don't pitch your "christian love" at me - I grew up in an intensely christian locale. I know how readily any deviation from the norm is condemned, and the frothing hatred expressed for "sexual deviates," (gays and lesbians) practitioners of hinduism, buddhism, etc.. Homosexuals are cursed, ANY religion other than christianity is "satanic." I've seen the only jewish kid in town called a "christ-killer," beaten and chased home every day after school by the flower of church-going christian youth. The christian teachers watched and did NOTHING. I've seen preachers praise AIDS as a "divine plague" sent by God to scour the Earth of homosexuals. Your "peaceful, gentle" religion is the dark ages in a can, ready to be opened when times get tough and loud mouthed hate-mongering preachers ascend to the stage. NOTE: I am not blaming present day christians for past atrocities. But I am vigourously opposed to self-proclaimed-"christian" intolerance for the rights of others as guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. In this opposition, I am SIMULTANEOUSLY CHAMPIONING THE RIGHT OF CHRISTIANS TO PRACTICE THEIR RELIGION. See where I'm coming from? The same goes for witches - but a christian accusing them of some organized attempt at world dominance is the hight of hypocrisy and paranoia.

As long as there's hate and anti-democratic sentiment coming from the pulpit, and I see christians nodding their heads in sympathy, I'm going to rationally analyze, and therefore undermine, your irrational belief system and the worldly uses to which it is being put. That is my right, is it not? Deal with the terrorists and political wolves in your midst. Take the beam out of your own eye. Show me you can exist without condemning others. Then perhaps I'll respect you and your faith.

You have a right to praise God. I have the right to proclaim that the Bible is a mistranslated, selectively-edited fairy-tales that are mostly stolen from prexisting cultures (the Sumerian Eden and Flood stories, the dozens of pre-christian death-and-ressurection gods, etc.). If you can't deal with my freedom to express what I believe to be true, then you yourself are giving up your own guarantee of the same freedom.

God bless America!


-- E. Coli (, January 31, 1999.


Caught your response, will give it the consideration it deserves, as I find time this evening.

-- Elbow Grease (, February 01, 1999.

E, here's an article about the blurring of Posse Comitatus - or however you spell on CNN's page.

"The new task force, if approved by President Clinton, would have the authority to draw resources from the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps and to coordinate activities with overseas military commands and other federal agencies."

-- Lisa (, February 01, 1999.


>>Christians have the right to be politically active, no question.<<

This statement is certainly a far cry from your previous one:

>>"Go to your closet and pray," and stay out of politics.<<

Which is your real opinion?

>>If you want to champion christianity as a religion, clean house. <<

Let's get back to reality here. Pick your favorite politically active group. Am I justified in challenging you to "clean house" based on my prejudice? I haven't met many non-Christians who didn't think they knew better what it means to be Christian, while opposing the basic tenets of the faith. You continue to cite an amalgam of extremist acts and label them "Christianity." It's a strawman constructed by you to confirm your prejudice. Nothing more.

>>The last witch burning in North America happened in the 1880s. etc.<<

So you go off on the word "witch" without getting my point at all. Stop generalizing everything. The practice of witchcraft is not something you would want to see as a widespread belief in this country!

>>There's over a thousand years of historical precedent for what christians would do to these people if they weren't given the constitutional right to worship as they pleased. <<

Oh, please. The framers of the Constitution were predominately Christians. They understood what you seem to have missed: Freedom of religion was and is an inalienable, that is, a God-given right. The least you could do is compare apples with apples. Witchcraft and satanism are not synonymous. Are Buddhists American Indians? Are witches Jewish? Of course not. Yet you drag in every non-Christian element you can think of. By the same token, anyone can call himself Christian; yet not all are either fundamentalist or Christian. By their fruits ye shall know them. Even if I were to agree that Christians were responsible for the slaughter of nature-worshippers as you've misrepresented, even if I were to agree that history as you've misrepresented it is accurate, I am saying that even then, a non-Christian majority of the groups you've lumped together would be worse insofar as personal freedoms, that is, Constitutional freedoms, are concerned. We are experiencing it now. The U.S is moving away from Christian ethics. Christians are becoming a smaller and smaller minority. Are you willing to state that personal freedoms are expanding/improving? If your original post says anything, it is that the opposite is true. Again I say, the last may be worse than the first.

>>But I am vigourously opposed to self-proclaimed-"christian" intolerance for the rights of others as guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.<<

>> Show me you can exist without condemning others.<<

As a Christian, I know there are certain things that SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED. And I have every right to work to have laws implemented so that society is not corrupted by those things. And by your words, you are stating your intolerance in opposition to some of those things. Is your intolerance superior to mine? By what standard? The Constitution you keep waving around? The one that protected the rights of unborn children until a generation ago when a new "freedom" was created out of thin air? If the Constitution is a document to be reinterpreted and twisted to suit a degenerating society's morals, then it is shifting sand. But if one faction can use it as a tool, so can another.

Universal Tolerance is not some Holy Grail, it is not some "higher doctrine" that can somehow supercede Christian beliefs. As I've shown, you cannot yourself adhere to such a paradox.

-- Elbow Grease (, February 01, 1999.

"As a Christian, I know there are certain things that SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED. And I have every right to work to have laws implemented so that society is not corrupted by those things."

Care to be a bit more specific?

-- Uncle Deedah (, February 01, 1999.


Though I was deliberately vague, I mentioned two.

Ideas, comments, flames?

-- Elbow Grease (, February 01, 1999.

Mr. Grease,

>>Christians have the right to be politically active, no question.<< >This statement is certainly a far cry from your previous one: >>"Go to your closet and pray," and stay out of politics.<< >Which is your real opinion?

To clarify: Go to your closet and pray, and stay out of politics IF you want to keep your moral authority as an example to others, as arbiter of supernatural realities, etc.. If you can't keep your nose out of statecraft and other people's business (what they do in their bedrooms), then no one is going to take you seriously as a moral authority, or a font of spiritual wisdom. They're going to think you're a bluenose and a busybody. They are going to take you seriously as a threat to their liberty. So, once again, you DO have the right to drag the Bible into politics. And I have the right to tell you to go jump in a lake. Which is what I was doing when I quoted Jesus, saying, "go to your closet and pray." I'll respect your religion to a point, but if you want to go waving a cross in the political arena, don't expect me to cease all argument and bow down in prayer. Don't expect me to welcome your claim to control my life according to your interpretation of an extremely corrupt and ancient religious text. Everyone has the "right" to display their bigotry and intolerance. Go ahead - make my day.

>>You continue to cite an amalgam of extremist acts and label them "Christianity."

Not so. These actions represented the mainstream of the church at the time. The very people who compiled and edited the bible that fundamentalists hold (laughably) to be the "inerrant word of God" were violent persecutors of "pagans" - i.e., anyone who didn't submit to the new religious/state authority. It got worse in the middle ages, then the MAINSTREAM authorities of both sides of the protestant/catholic divide bathed Europe in blood for over a century, burning and torturing witches and heretics along the way. Those christians who refused to sanction the violence were a clear minority.

>>So you go off on the word "witch" without getting my point at all. Stop generalizing everything. The practice of witchcraft is not something you would want to see as a widespread belief in this country!

So witchcraft is bad. Really bad. You know, because you've FELT the malevolence. And it must be squelched, because, well, just because. I'm not getting what you're saying, except that there should be freedom of SOME religions and not others. And that those authorities of YOUR religion should decide what qualifies as a religion. I disagree. I find satanism, for example, to be a miserably selfish, unwholesome creed, but people should be allowed to worship as they choose, period. Freedom of speech and worship means freedom ESPECIALLY for those creeds one dislikes. Otherwise get ready to be wiped out by a sect of your own faith (They will have already killed the witches, and opened the show by burning "faggots"- the origin of the term. You will be next - or if you resist, maybe you'll treat us to another "30 Years War").

>>The least you could do is compare apples with apples. Witchcraft and satanism are not synonymous. Are Buddhists American Indians? Are witches Jewish? Of course not. Yet you drag in every non-Christian element you can think of.

In dealing with these as a group, I am following the example of fundamentalist christian teaching, which holds that ALL these faiths are "inspired by satan," "counterfeit religions, created to deceive mankind." This has been the case throughout christian history, and it is damn sure the case in my home town. It's in the sermons and the literature - all you have to do is look. The only place you don't hear this line is among quakers, unitarians etc. (hmmm - maybe they're really witches, too!). Let me emphasize that I believe you should be perfectly free to believe this - but when you demonize others, expect them to view you as a threat. This fear and hatred of "witchcraft" - worshiping nature at the turning of the seasons, and the various gods of different pagan holidays - does more to promote pagan beliefs than any evangelistic witch could.

>>As a Christian, I know there are certain things that SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED. And I have every right to work to have laws implemented so that society is not corrupted by those things.

You hinted to Deedah about "two things," which as far as I can tell seem to be abortion and witchcraft. Well, many (but not all) Lakota religious beliefs and practices certainly count as witchcraft. They were illegal until the 1970s, so you have a precedent there. But why stop at witchcraft? Since all non-christian faiths (and many "christian" heresies) are inspired by Satan, the adherents of those faiths are effectively praying to Satan, so isn't that witchcraft, too? Why not outlaw those as well? I agree with you in principle, that some things should not be tolerated, and we should be working to enact laws against those intolerable things. The difficulty lies in the fact that almost everything everyone does or believes is intolerable to someone else. That's the whole rationale behind securing certain liberties over and above the general law, and preserving the right of the minority, even if a majority wants to pass laws against their religious or political beliefs - that's why the Constitution is the SUPREME law of the land.

Abortion is different. It's like global warming. Global warming is real, but it's being used by globalists to undermine our national sovereignty, on the pretext that nationalism is THE cause and UN authority to tax us and pass anti-constitutional laws will be THE answer). Same with abortion; the liberalization of abortion laws worldwide was prompted by UN population control freaks (the key players in this have links to the nazified eugenics movement - read "And The Truth Shall Set You Free" by Icke for details). Nonetheless, population control is a good idea, and outlawing all abortion is a vile intrusion on personal liberty. I'm for defining "life" (and with it citizenship) the sameway we define death: the presence or absence of brainwaves. But if my wife's life is in danger, and you tell me she'll have to die because we need to save the child, you're way out of line. Of course you have the right to tell me what my wife and I will do in a given medical situation. And I have the right to tell you you're not make any converts to christianity with that tactic.


-- E. Coli (, February 02, 1999.

To address - though only briefly the supposed rejoiner from a@a above:

"And there were no deaths under Reagan and Bush? (Or words to that effect)

No - there were no murders of 130 plus people - at this rate, by the same execution-style techniques, of people whose only link was to Bill and Hillary Clinton, and who uniformly, consistenly, and overwhelmingly had evidence of their corruption - or were associated with their corruption, or were implicated by the corruption.

Also, not only were there no serial murders like this, there was no systematic effort BY GOVERNMENT AGENCIES under the control of the Clintons of deliberately concealing and hiding and not investigating the deaths themselves. Many, most, maybe almost all could have been coincedental - but the only common thread among these is that they were all "made dead" under violent and most often suspicious ways - after evidence was available that each person had evidence of corruption.

And now, the FBI investigators working the Clinton sex coverup fear for their lives - how many of them will die? How many more must die before you get suspicious?

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (, February 02, 1999.

But, E, your sentiments have moved a long way from the statement you made to which I objected. You accused "Groups like Gary North's Christian Reconstructionists" of treason, but it is clear at this point that your animosity has a much larger target. To a certain extent, I can understand the viewpoint that Reconstructionism might appear to be subversive, but I'd call that straining at a gnat and swallowing a whole herd of camels. The threat is just too improbable. You have since extended the argument to all politically active Christians, and that leap of logic is specious, erroneous and unwarranted.

>>I'll respect your religion to a point, but if you want to go waving a cross in the political arena, don't expect me to cease all argument and bow down in prayer. Don't expect me to welcome your claim to control my life according to your interpretation of an extremely corrupt and ancient religious text. Everyone has the "right" to display their bigotry and intolerance.<<

I don't expect you to kowtow to my belief system. (Except where the law of the land and my belief system intersect.) But when you say: "Everyone has the "right" to display their bigotry and intolerance," I will make sure that you know that you are living in a glass house. You do not speak from the moral high ground.

>> These actions represented the mainstream of the church at the time. The very people who compiled and edited the bible that fundamentalists hold (laughably) to be the "inerrant word of God" were violent persecutors of "pagans"<<

I'm not going to recap the bit about the excesses of the last 2000 years, because it is largely a red herring. In the context of this dialog, I did not adequately quote you, and that led to a sidetrack. I would like to point out, however, that the "pagans" drew Christian blood for 300 years when Christianity was supplanting the pagan community in the religious arena and had no political power. I am not excusing persecution by Christians, only pointing out which side was *first* to feel the point, the fire, the tooth and the claw.

>>I'm not getting what you're saying, except that there should be freedom of SOME religions and not others. And that those authorities of YOUR religion should decide what qualifies as a religion. <<

Don't know how you arrived at either conclusion. As an aside, the real problem is that our Big Brother has become arbiter of what is and is not a religion. If an Indian tribe has smoked peyote for centuries as a religious ritual, the Feds should not be able to restrict that rite. If a group wants to barricade itself at Waco and preach apocalypse, why should the Feds get involved? If the Church of the Bull and Bear meet regularly to "take offerings" and invest them in stocks, and distribute the "tax free" proceeds back to the members, the Feds should keep their hands off. But, by accusing the group of the "evils" of drug use, child abuse or tax evasion, these religious freedoms are being infringed, the groups are being marginalized, disenfranchized, and eliminated by our government with the blessings of the majority of the populace.

>>In dealing with these as a group, I am following the example of fundamentalist christian teaching, which holds that ALL these faiths are "inspired by satan," "counterfeit religions, created to deceive mankind." <<

Within the context of any particular faith, there are explicit boundaries to what is "correct doctrine" and what is not, what is right and what is wrong. It doesn't bother me that "other religions" castigate Christianity. Obviously, they believe their faith is correct and mine is wrong, and vice versa. That is *freedom* of religion. I do not have to validate other religions within the context of my own in order to tolerate them. That is freedom of *religion.* Anything beyond that is an imposition upon all religions.

>>You hinted to Deedah about "two things," which as far as I can tell seem to be abortion and witchcraft. <<

No, I was trying to use witchcraft purely as an example. Wiccans are entitled to the same religious freedoms as others, but I view the practice of witchcraft as a symptom of the moral decline of our society. And I think I can prove that. The "two things" are abortion and universal tolerance, which, as should be evident, is a contradiction in terms.

>>Abortion is different. It's like global warming. Global warming is real, but it's being used by globalists to undermine our national sovereignty, on the pretext that nationalism is THE cause and UN authority to tax us and pass anti-constitutional laws will be THE answer). Same with abortion; the liberalization of abortion laws worldwide was prompted by UN population control freaks (the key players in this have links to the nazified eugenics movement - read "And The Truth Shall Set You Free" by Icke for details). << We are on the same page here.

>>Nonetheless, population control is a good idea, and outlawing all abortion is a vile intrusion on personal liberty. <<

Please, please, let's not turn this into an abortion debate. However, a couple observations: (1) The issue has never been about outlawing all abortion, but about legalizing all abortions. Freedom of "choice" is no such thing unless the *child* has an equal voice in the decision. (2) Population control is not a factor in the parent's (parents') mind (s) when considering an abortion. If it is forced on them by a government, *that* is a vile intrusion on personal liberty.

-- Elbow Grease (, February 03, 1999.

Elbow Grease:

We need to be slightly more riggorous in our definitions. You seem to be equating satanic activities and witchcraft. NOT THE CASE!!! I have a fair number of witches/wiccans as friends. They are VERY aware of my Christian Position. the discussions can be HIGHLY interesting, but nothing like any "MALEVOLENCE" (emphasis mine) comes across. Any belief system which starts out "First, do no harm," is one I will respect. I may try to introduce the person to the Lord I know, for the sake of her or his soul, but I can respect the system.

PS Around here, if there are satanic or pseudo- (wanabe-) satanic things that surface, the educated cops end up having help from the wiccan community, as the (putative) exercise of Black (satanic) Magick is just as anathema to them as it is to us Christians.

On the founding document authors. Yes, they were Christian. The freedom of religion and speech come from their Masonic heritage, however.

On the Falwells of the world, one of the local pastors, who has an active ministry on radio, suggested that, in the opinion of a guy from across the pond, haven't they gotten something a bit messed up? Didn't Christ say that His Kingdom was not of this world?? Guy's name is Allistair Begg and is a) a hoot, b) has his Christianity ALL TOGETHER, as we used to say, and c) from a working class family in Scotland.


-- Chuck, night driver (, February 04, 1999.


What gave you the impression that I was confusing witchcraft with satanism? I know there are differences. Perhaps you would like to describe some of the beliefs, practices, and rites of Wicca.

-- Elbow Grease (Elbow_Grease, February 04, 1999.

This post is about to drop off the horizon, so I'm going to bow out.

As for Christian Reconstructionists and other politically involved christians, I think it's kind of a continuum, with degrees of hatred involved, from wanting to nuke Washington DC to merely having the strength of one's convictions. I try to be fair, especially since there really is an ugly, anti-christian tactic used in the overall strategy of tarring the "far right" (anyone who opposes globalism).

I think we're really in agreement about most of this, especially since I realize you're not for outlawing "witchcraft" or any other religion (which it seemed like you might have been hinting at, but clearly you weren't). I too am opposed to "universal tolerance" as a heavy-handed one-world battle-tactic - it impinges on freedom of conscience and expression.

Thanks for sticking with this debate. I hope to catch you on another thread - where we'll probably be on the same team.


-- E. Coli (, February 04, 1999.

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