"And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." -- Jonah 3:4

And Prophets North and Yourdon and Hamasaki and Infomagic added their voices to that of Jonah. Yet Nineveh listened to Jonah, and repented herself of the evil that she had done, and worked mightily to remediate the problem that had caused this pronouncement to be made to begin with. And the Almighty through Jonah expressed his relentment of His original prophecy, in keeping with the principle of conditional prophecy -- if thosed prophesied against change their ways, the predicted disaster will not occur, or will not occur in quite so disastrous a fashion.

Yet the lesser prophets North, Yourdon, Hamasaki, and Infomagic refused to believe the relentment of this original word, and held on doggedly to the original saying. They did not see (or chose not to see) the progress, and repentance, made by those against whom the original prophecy was made. They held on to old dogma, and no one knew why. They would not say why. This led some to wonder if they had hidden agendas. Many wondered why, in a world controlled by God, would they get so stuck in one particular system of thought, when the world around them is so changing and dynamic.

The Year 2000 came and went. There were problems. But they did not bring on the end of civilization. They did, however, bring on the end of most people's trust in the lesser prophets North, Yourdon, Hamasaki, and Infomagic. Never again would anyone trust what they said, since they had misled people so grossly. The macro effects of Y2K had not been so bad. The micro effects of those who had refused to change their worst-case scenario, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, was significant in the the lives of those involved.

A sad story of willful ignorance.

-- Yesterday's news (wake_the_heck@up.com), January 28, 1999

Answers

What about this prophet? Maroon.

Andy

Two digits. One mechanism. The smallest mistake.

"The conveniences and comforts of humanity in general will be linked up by one mechanism, which will produce comforts and conveniences beyond human imagination. But the smallest mistake will bring the whole mechanism to a certain collapse. In this way the end of the world will be brought about."

Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan, 1922 (Sufi Prophet)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 28, 1999.

And these Hopi Elders:-

AB: Now, these are three things: weather change, mass starvation and the third world war. Would you please ask Grandfather if the weather changes are the beginning of these changes.....if what we have seen now, with the weather, is the beginning and, of course, we're going to want to ask how soon these other changes, he thinks, will happen.

Grandfathers One and Two talk back and forth in the Hopi Tongue.

G2: Yes, these are the signs of, you know, the changes and that also part of it is, you know, right now we're having problems with crickets which is a part of these prophecies where they would come in hoards and they will destroy the crops, also, and that is happening, also.

GW: You're having that in Nevada, aren't you?

AB: Yes, we are. In Southern Nevada we are having that and, apparently, throughout large portions of the Southwest we are having that.....yes, indeed. So then, these weather changes are the beginning?

G2: Yes.

AB: When does Grandfather think the very serious parts of the prophecies, another world war and mass starvation......when will these begin to manifest? How far away from these are we?

Grandfathers One and Two talk back and forth in the Hopi Tongue.

G2: Well, it's been said that there is no exact time and date for these things.....events....to take place but the year 2000 is a ......I would say.....that is a close approximation of the time that all of this will start to take place. The teaching from the Elders was that they talked about that everything will happen at once but, when they say these things, they put it in a form that, you know, they say it's going to all happen at once but it's not exactness of happening at once. It will happen but they will, you know, fall pretty much short from the other, following , it's like a domino effect. This is, you know, when one thing happens then the other will fall into place. But, you know, it will be in a short time from one another so this is what Grandfather was talking about.

GW: Are we talking within the next two years?

Bell: Well, he seemed to say....by the year 2000. I guess this would be a first question....if there is a way to phrase this. Is the weather change, that we now have, the first domino?

Grandfathers One and Two talk back and forth in the Hopi Tongue.

G2: It's been known that this had happened a long time ago but, in our prior world, it happened before, you know, the same things that we had gone through. The teachings were that we were not supposed to follow in the same pattern and try to keep ourselves from going astray from our teachings. These weather patterns that we talked about and cataclysms that take place, are not really set in order....in a fashion that any person could say that, 'Okay, the winds are going to do it this year and the next year will be fires and the following year will be earthquakes, you know.' Also, he's saying that it's not exactly his words that that is the way that it will take place but he knows that these are signs and they are readily available. All the signs are out there. Anyone can see that, that it is taking place and it's only going to get bigger.

AB: Grandfather said 'other worlds' or 'other civilizations' and that this has happened before. Now, did Grandfather mean by that that men have walked on the Earth before and that great catastrophes...like the one we are now talking about.....came and wiped them out and man started again. Is that what Grandfather meant?

G2: Yes.

Bell: Oh.

GW: I have a question, if I may?

Bell: You may.

GW: There's a lot of talk, out now, and a lot of theories and a lot of prophecies about these changes having dramatic effects on the configurations of the land masses.....that they will be tremendous, cataclysmic changes. Does Grandfather.....do the Hopis see this as happening in that manner? Will there be very dramatic Earth changes and will cause the face of the Earth, as we know it, to change dramatically?

Grandfathers One and Two talk back and forth in the Hopi tongue.

G2: Ah, yes. The Earth changes will take place in such a way, you know, that this whole planet, here, will become a different type of planet because of the changes in itself. It has happened before, as we mentioned earlier, that it did happen before that they went through these changes and they was taught they we weren't supposed to go back to the same routine that we had gone through in the past life. That was the corruption that we were going through....what we're going through, today. There is so much corruption, out there. These were the things that led us to these things and even animals, insects, all of these things will all turn around on us and, you know, they're going to lead us to the same things again.

GW: So, we're repeating history.

G2: Yes. Even though it can be your own pet, it can turn against you.

AB: The animals will turn against us. Already, I have talked to many experts.....animal experts....who are saying that animal attacks, all across North America, are increasing many, many fold. So, this could be the beginning of that.

G2: Yes.

Bell: Alright, we are close to another break but I would like to ask Grandfather if there will be any difference in the way the people in the cities.....the great cities of America and the World....Los Angeles, New York, Chicago.....will feel these changes and the people in remote areas like New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and the Dakota where Robert is now? Will there be a big difference?

G2: In the changes?

AB: Yes.

GF2: {Asks GF1?} Yes, in the big cities, it will effect a lot. You know, how much corruption there will be within the cities. Also, the people themselves have to be aware of all of these things that will take place, so they must change, too. But, he's not asking anyone to follow him in the way he put himself on the path he is on. He is not asking anyone to follow him in that. It is up to the individual to make that decision for him/herself as to which direction they want to go. When you make that choice for yourself, what you want to do with your life, you don't blame anybody else for your own actions, for what you do. If something happens to you along the way, then you are not going to say that you were forced into it. These are the things that he had looked into also. That's why he's saying that he's not asking anyone to follow him in the way he's leading himself. He's only giving out advice that this is what they should do. They should start changing themselves and going back to the old ways of living simple lives, of taking care of themselves from the land that is available to them, and from the food that they grow. These are the things that will help you along the way when you come to your hard times. So, the people must make these decisions for themselves.

Link at:-

http://bbs.rowlandnet.com/cgi-bin/WebX?14@^4727257@.ee73e8a/1

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 28, 1999.

Andy,

You have to hold the record for fastest average response time.

I'm pretty glad that Sufi prophets have pretty much nothing to do with what actually happens on this planet.

-- Yesterday's news (wake_the_heck@up.com), January 28, 1999.

Hey Yesterday,

Open your eyes and ears, you must be brain dead if you can't see what's happening all around you.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 28, 1999.

Andy,

Let's meet at the Mayo Clinic and both take the MMPI.....whichever one comes closer to the "ya gotta commit this dude" score goes in for five years....deal?

-- Yesterday's news (wake_the_heck@up.com), January 28, 1999.

No thanks Yesterday, they've only just let me out :)

I take umbrage at your labelling the four you did as blinkered and "holding on to the old dogma". I see Gary North on top of the subject every day, keeping up a constant list of links to check out with his pithy commentary. Hamasaki puts out his DC reports regularly, and posts intelligently daily on csy2k. Infomagic less so - his trio of essays bear re-reading, he may be wrong, but not ALL wrong. I respect Ed Yourdon - again he's on top of his subject and his views are as unbiased as you can get.

Who are YOU sir, and what have you been doing??? What is your frame of reference, why are you lambasting these folks? Why do you think I need to be committed, because of my sig. line or respect for the wisdom of the Hopis?

Rationally I have a leg to stand on, you are just spouting wishful thinking in absentia of the facts pouring in by the bucketload day in day out. I'm working on remediation with a fortune 500 company and can see the writing on the wall (hint, they hired me and other contractors far too late to enable us to do our job.)

Take your head out of the sand and take a look at the lions watching you in the distance.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 28, 1999.

Thanks for your post, Andy. I'm a lurker and infrequent poster to this NG, and I appreciate your contributions to this and to the other programmer's forum I've been monitoring since I GI a year ago. Your Hopi contribution, IMHO, is right on target. We ARE living outside the "sacred circle". . . Re the insects, themselves, turning on us-- I have eight years of university-level education, and ten years ago I wrote a treatise entitled "Third Millennial Vortex". The "punch line" was that ALL the "problems" which our species perpetrates (global warming/environmental degradation of all types, overpopulation, massive public/private debt, et cetera) will "come together" at this turn of the century-- thus, the "vortex"-- pulling us toward it. Reason: homo sapien has become a "parasite" on the "host" of "mother earth", and "nature" will not allow any parasite which "kills" its host to exist; all the "forces of nature" (including insects) are "gathering momentum" as it were, to reduce the numbers of a parasitic species so as to bring the symbiotic relationship between it (homo sapien) and "nature" back into a more equitable (and sustainable) BALANCE. Our "institutionalizing", then "globalizing" two-digit date fields in the context of (and in contrast to) a four digit calender is all part of the "mechanism" which "creates" the "vortex". It's NOT "the end of the world"-- just TEOTW "as we know it". How well I know you know. . . Thanks for the wisdom of your tagline, Andy. I know that while I, as an individual may not "survive", at least I have the satisfaction of knowing I didn't "sleep-walk" through the last scene of the play. The grandfathers are [IMHO] right. Those who do not "prepare" to live simply in "the world to come" won't be able to sustain themselves. . . {No flames, please; this is just my own take. It's free-- and perhaps worth what it costs. If someone disagrees, just post your own "take" and leave it at that. Thanks in advance.]

-- Nowi Gedit (gotit@gettinready.com), January 28, 1999.

How about some plain ol' reality?

Today's news:

"Value chain exposure is the biggest Y2K issue businesses face," says Skip Tamke, a managing project director for the Year 2000 consulting firm Millennia III. He believes small businesses are being too shortsighted in terms of Y2K. "Our clients aren't happy about this. Most of them have been working on Y2K for quite some time. If smaller vendors don't start seriously addressing the Year 2000 problem right away, they can cause major disruptions to larger organizations," he said.

Making matters worse, the weakest link in this value chain refuses to believe it's about to break.

According to a recent survey by the National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB) and Wells Fargo Bank, of 500 small business, only 41 percent had addressed or intended to address the Y2K problem, and 18 percent said they were not at all or barely aware of the problem. However, the survey estimates that 82 percent of all small business owners are at risk because they use computers, use time/date systems that might be affected, or sell, lease, or install equipment that could be impaired.

"Most small businesses think they know about Y2K. But they don't understand the whole picture. They don't know some of the more technical aspects of the problem, " says William Dennis, a senior research fellow at the NFIB. According to Dennis, the end-of- the-world scenarios in the general press aren't helping to legitimize the problem. "Small business owners see stories about possible bank failures and airplanes falling out of the sky, when what they need is more discussion about specific consequences," he said.

Many large businesses have tried to reach their smaller partners with questionnaires, but to date, most are either returned inaccurate or go unanswered. Some are planning to resort to pressure tactics, telling the small business, "If you cannot show your Y2K compliance, we'll use another supplier who is ready for the millennium changeover."

http: //www.year2000.com/releases/NFbelinda01_21_1999.html

"America's 23 million small businesses employ more than 50 percent of the private workforce, generate more than half of the nation's gross domestic product, and are the principal source of new jobs in the U.S. economy." -- Small Business Administration, Release Date: June 3, 1998

http://www.sba.gov/n ews/current/98-39.html

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), January 28, 1999.

Yesterday's news, the real reason nothing happened to Ninevah, and Jonah knew it, is the fact that God sends at least two witnesses to pass a judgement. Jonah hated the Ninevites and wanted to see them destroyed. Check it out! How many people are prophesying on this y2k thing? Might be a goood idea to "wake the heck up".

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), January 28, 1999.

Ummmmmm, Yesterday?

Lots of us would LOVE to share your position. Unfortunately, we who are of a questing, questioning mind set tend to need DATA to make determinations. Now, I and most of us are fully aware that the plural of anectdote (-2 sp?) is NOT DATA. To achieve teh status of DATA, the information needs to be reported not by a happy-face rep of some industry, who reads what they hand him, but from someone or some group which has done some independent verification. In short, to be DATA, the info needs to be reported by someone who does not have an axe to grind.

Hands in the back of the room? "But what about Ed and Jenifer Yourdon?? Surely, because they are selling a book and videos THEY have an axe to grind?" Not exactly. Ed posted the books (ed 1 and 2) on the net until his PUBLISHER asked him, fairly politely but firmly to remove it. He did. Ed gives away about 40% of his time in pro-bono appearances, and if you ask politely, with a reasonable excuse, he'll send you a copy of the book gratis.

Plus, remember that what Ed does for a real living, is systems design, and teaching structured design techniques. If it goes away, so does his livelyhood. Harly an axe to grind.

As far as Cory is concerned, all he does for a living is eat, sleep, and breath "Big Iron" "Legacy Systems". If it even goes away a little bit, he could be completely unable to make a living. Axe to grind? NOT!

Infomagic is in exactly the same boat as Cory, because this is what HE does for a living too.

Gary North might be the only one on the list with an axe to grind as far as his hope for a Christian Reconstruction. OK. I'll grant his axe, but this does NOT change the DATA and INFORMATION he posts. If we have a problem on his commentary, or in believing him, then we don't bother with the commentary, we just click on the reference and read it in the raw, minus spin.

DATA, DATA, DATA!!! NOT annectdotes! DATA!! "My company is completely compliant and therefor all companies in my industry are compliant!!" This has the same validity as me saying that my sedan company has only drivers with absolutely clean records working for us and therefor the conventional wisdom that limo drivers have records is totally false.

take care, or your "Totally Compliant company may join the ranks of the (what 30% - 40%) of Brit companies evaluated by an external evaluator and found to have year errors, many of which would generate catastrophic results, or the insurance Co that Cory reported on that was in the process of removing the production code they had installed as compliant, and stuffing it back into the time machine to find out what the he@@ was causing it to come down, hard! (YUP! I plead guilty, this is an annecdote. But it is used in the context of other studies which support the conclusion.)

So, to make a long story short, kindly take your silly a@@ point of view down the hall, and come back when you can cite verrified, completed, remediations. If you can come up with more than deJager's 5 (or is it 7) out of the Fortune 500, or out of 12,000 banks, or out of n thousand power companies, or out of y hundred thousand medium and large companies, we will all rejoice and hope that there are enough in each of the critical areas to have minimized the problems. Unitl that time, we will all continue to sing our song and prepare as hard as we can.

Chuck, Got skills?

-- Chuck, night driver (rienzoo@en.com), January 28, 1999.

how very interesting - I've spent the better part of the last year dealing with Christian DWGIs who are basicly coming from the "God will provide...lilies of the field...etc" frame of reference. NOW we're seeing something new - the "not to worry judgement has been averted" spiel. You know folks, all this is, is an extension of some of the liberal theologians use of a misinterpretation of the story of David and Bathsheba to attempt to excuse the prez's behavior - "because he repented, so everything will be forgotten".

oh brother! Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), January 28, 1999.

Arlin,

As far as Christian DWGIs go, give them Proverbs 22:3 & 27:12 (then let them know God will call them "naive" to their face on Judgment Day- oops); and Acts 11:27-30. Did the disciples just say "God will provide" at the prospect of famine? No- they *prepared*. Duh.

Besides, if these Christians really have that much "faith," why ever go to a doctor? Why use a car? Just wait for God to transport you! Why ever go to a grocery store? Let the ravens feed you, or let manna fall from the sky.

OTOH, don't forget, there will always be those with eyes, who will not see... You reach who you can reach, and let the blind lead the blind...

-- Drew Parkhill/CBN News (y2k@cbn.org), January 28, 1999.

Since weez onna subject, here's another one fer ya, Arlin.

Gen 1:29

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 28, 1999.

To Nowi Gedit,

feel free to reply to my e-mail - I'm glad that at least *someone* is on my wavelength :)

seems like you were way ahead of the curve,

keep in touch,

Andy

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 29, 1999.

From what I remember of reading old testaments prophets of doom, the doomees could be spared only if they changed their attitudes toward God and the life they were living. Not by getting new abacuses (remediation) for the moneychangers inside the temple.

Come to think of it, Roman numerals were a crazy math system screaming for remediation. But would they have strung up a few thousand less non-Romans on crosses along a hundred provincial roads if they could have properly done long multiplication?

Are you really a Christian, or are you TrollPagan? America the Remediated would still be corrupt in the Biblical sense, never changing its ways, still in need of chastisement as Dr. M.L. King said: "And I am sad to say that the nation in which I live is the chief culprit [in the nuclear game of chicken with USSR] But God has a way of putting even nations in their place. And that can happen to America. God says 'I will rise up and BREAK the backbone of your arrogance.'"

The idea of prophecy is entering in because we have a tradition (is it just the New Yorker cartoons?) of expecting a nutcase upsurge before the year 2000. Now the computer crisis has pre-empted it. But it LOOKS VERY MUCH LIKE THE ORIGINAL DOOM predictions! People just don't know what to do with this sequence. And one great irony is that the #1 known "religious guy" to us all, GN, doesn't even link the two! Hell, he's after fractional reserve banking. I love it.

I would ask that we here think about the distinctions between two words:

PREDICTION and PREPARATION

Prediction is too wrapped up in the question of BELIEF.

Newbies and 'Brooders both: Watch out for your NEED to BELIEVE before you let yourself PREPARE.

-- (jor-el@krypton.com), January 30, 1999.