Sorry _ I have been 'indisposed' for a day or two...greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
I suppose this is off topic (maybe, bear with me No Spam my friend), but I am in-between jobs/contracts and decided to spend some time (after just leaving San Francisco) with my brother in sunny Newport Beach, Orange County, Southern California.
All was going swimmingly, new job lined up with a major US airline starting "soon", time for a little r n' r on Saturday night. Brother went to triage his ex-marriage :( , or maybe :) depending on your view of the old dame. However, I digress...
So I r n'r'd 'till 1.30 am and decided to walk home (about 10 blocks, needless to say I found out later that *no-one* walks in Orange County - silly me...) at which point I am accosted by two (admittedly blond) of Orange County's finest, determined apparently to rescue me from my own negligence (no doubt of going for a few beers in Newport Beach and *NOT* driving home - *sigh* thanks Diane).
So I am hauled off to spend the night in the nick. Now bear in mind that I've just moved down fron San Francisco, after 5 years there with nary a problem in the same vein, walking every where, no hassle, no such thing as "jay-walking" - OBTW you will be awarded with a $55 fine in Orange County should you decide to cross the road using other than conventional computer driven technology. Really. Walk, don't walk. etc... on deserted dark roads, OK???
So I'm in the nick, not a drunk tank, mixed up with "hard-core" types - all for having a few beers down the pub. What is wrong with America? Is this normal? Certainly not in San Francisco. But apparently in Newport Beach. And Santa Ana. Maybe in ... oh, forget about it.
I had pretty much run out of dollars, bail set at $145, I had about $30, no choice but to phone big bruv to bail me out, BUT no big bruv, big bruv succesfully triaging his marriage,... I have to stay in jail as the phone was not being answered. MERDE. Until Monday. 36 hours later. Merde again.
Suffice it to say that the 48 hours it eventually took to get myself released from a non-existent "offence" was a real eye-opener. Got to give me a *VERY* good impression of the people that are on the streets ( including myself for getting into this ludicrous situaton in the first place!)
Got to give me a *VERY* good impression of the people that are working in the Police in OC. A thinking person would be worried.
A couple of the arrested folks were making plans to be in Vegas at rollover, with a couple of strippers and suitable chemical enhancements, asking if anyone new which hotel would be demolished in the usual finale? Anyone know? I was tempted to say something, but reasoned that I'd screwed up badly enough already without going for bonus points :)
The time passed mind-numbingly boringly. Let me repeat that. mind-numbingly boringly. Did I say *F**&^NG* boring. Most of us were on extremely petty offences including, get this, a young (maybe19-20) Swedish guitarist from a rock band on tour called Wade who was arrested after a lover's tiff with his girlfriend in which she broke a fingernail. A stick-on nail. That's all. A F^%$ing *fake* glue-on fingernail... She did not press charges. Yet the cops found out and insisted on arresting him late Friday night, on $30,000 bail(!!!!!!!), which caused him to stay locked up with me and the crew on cold (fucking cold, pardon my french) concrete floors for the whole weekend, for him 4 days, released at 5 pm on Monday afternoon without even getting to see Da Judge - the system purposely infringed on his liberties (yah! it's gotta be 72 hours "working" days) for 4 DAYS!! - and then just drops the charges, no harm done??? Are there any cops here on this forum, any lawyers, what's going on???
This is one ahem, problematical county/country/system if it's even halfway similar to this where you all live around the USA. What about the UK, Japan Australia/// (Nigel, PNG, Leo.)
I really felt sorry for most of the people who were locked up with me, I was OK, I knew I was getting out once I saw Da Judge, many were on *extremely* flimsy/unnecessary charges, all as far as they were concerned, getting royally screwed by the system.
Despite it all we all managed to bond quite well :)
Diane would have been proud :) Community personified :)
If TSHTF however, we are in collective trouble, the prison-prone collective people do not have a clue about y2k and will simply exploit it for their own ends. It will be very ugly.
The system IS very ugly.
America just concentrates on locking people up, no remediation - uh, where have I heard that one before???
Jails are a boom business here - it's now even privatised fer xxxx-sakes!
Something has got to give in this society - y2k anyone?
By the way - the Cops, in general, were an absolute disgrace.
And Orange county is a pussycat county for cops to work in, now I understand why the cop-retard types (hence the reasons for the disgraceful behaviour I saw (in about 70% of cases) this weekend) choose to work in their area of highest incompetence.
Apologies to REAL cops out there - and hopefully they are in the great and GOOD majority.
Andy the jailbird.
Two digits. One mechanism. The smallest mistake.
"The conveniences and comforts of humanity in general will be linked up by one mechanism, which will produce comforts and conveniences beyond human imagination. But the smallest mistake will bring the whole mechanism to a certain collapse. In this way the end of the world will be brought about."
Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan, 1922 (Sufi Prophet)
-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 26, 1999
What the fuck is this shit doing on a Y2K discussion forum!
-- computer man (email@example.com), January 26, 1999.
Sorry Computer man - uh, computerised society (including Police/DMV/SSA computers) - possible breakdown of such computers - personal view of my lone star state in America (CA) re the folks I spent 48 hours with- the gendarme folks that will be dealing with you and me in 11 months time in times of societal "agitation" - work it out for yourself numb nuts. Maroon.
-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 26, 1999.
I hate to pop your bubble mate, but those cops were representative of the majority. Not just in California, but all across America. You're right about the "pussycat" part though, it's very different in the deep south; it's much worse.
Take a look at what America pays cops, and you'll easily see why most of them are either on the take or looking to hurt someone. Like managers, honest cops are rare and to be treasured.
I have no fear of martial law, only of the ordinary "law" if it's to be administered by these bozos. The "home of the brave and the land of the free" has given birth to the home of the sheep where no one is truly free.
If Y2K gets truly ugly, don't worry so much about your neighbors taking away your "stash". It'll be those "boys in blue" who "need it for the common good". And they'll be right; it'll be for their good and they're plenty common.
Now, dying in your sleep is the best than any of us can hope for, but I'm afraid that America is going to wake up just in time to do it wide awake and screaming in horror at what we've become.
-- Hardliner (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 26, 1999.
What the frick is this computer troll doing on this forum. Shoo computerman! :-p
Andy poor ol' you, just look at it as a learning experience. My township's cops are also sorta zealot on arrests, it's a safe and quiet suburb of around 60k pop. just outside Philadelphia. They seem to park themselves at the highway entrance to our suburb and arrest anyone who doesn't live in the township. Then you have Philadelphia 15 miles away, where criminals roam free, and innocents who got their ID's stolen are repeatedly arrested by mistake (just heard that story of that man this morning on the radio, who got arrested 4 times, including once when he got in a car accident and was taken to the police station instead of the hospital.) Maybe it's a big city/small community attitude difference you encountered in your experience with SF and Orange county? But you got arrested for walking the street at night? Did I get that right?
-- Chris (email@example.com), January 26, 1999.
Andy, I don't think your post is off topic. If this is how some law enforcement officers behave in ordinary times, what the hell happens in not-so-ordinary times? Perhaps we can all learn from your experience. It might be politic for us to make friends with our local cops, so that if we DO need to be out and about at an unusual time we can at least drop a name or two and be viewed more favorably. Joining or starting a Neighborhood Watch seems to be the easiest way to go about it. There's a National Night Out sponsored by NW some time in the summer, August, I think; if your neighbourhood doesn't have a NNO, then perhaps get one going yourself. It might be a good way to meet neighbors concerned about crime who could be useful re Y2K security. If you start a Neighborhood Watch, ask about the ride-along program, where you can "ride along" with the cops in the course of a normal patrol. It's a good way to make connections.
Andy, what happened to you was awful; you must still be in shock. I have an offer to ride along with a deputy friend, and I think I'll call her today.
-- Old Git (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 26, 1999.
Andy were there any video cameras around. Looking forward to seeing you on an upcoming COPS episode. I am picturing the scene in jail from Easy Rider. Did you call the cops "buggers" or any other good English insults? Did you chant Rodney, Rodney....? How was the food? You should have spoke endlessly about how they will all be toast after y2k, they would have enjoyed that. How the boys from Compton will be coming over to see them, etc.... Glad to you survived to tell this tale. Now back to work finding the great clues to this y2k mystery.
-- Bill (email@example.com), January 26, 1999.
Thanks HL and Chris,
Yes I'm venting a little - I'm no angel, I was "wobbling" on the way home, (hey, if you can't get to enjoy yourself in a drinking establishment...) but I'm a big guy 220lbs, I can handle my drink, I was heading home, 10 blocks away, on foot, and these 'heroes' were lying in wait. At these particular two bars (if you're interested where to watch out for these "Cops" they lurk after donut- break in the car park behind the "Goat" and the "Helm.")
They do a shitty job, yes - but they succumb it seems. Hell no, they pick on easy targets!!!
HL you had it right, lousy pay, power, envy (lack of brain cells with many) - a potent combination.
Pay attention this year. And next.
-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 26, 1999.
Unfortunately Andy, what you wrote is probably in vain. The justice system in this country has been broken for a very long time and there is little interest in evaluation or reform. Again, the reaction by the public seems to be, "Yeah, did ya hear what happened to Andy? Ain't it a shame." And that's it. We accept it as "the way it is." Your story is just one of millions that show crystal clear how screwed up it is, yet nothing gets done about it. My belief is because those who make the laws are, 9 out of 10 times, lawyers, and many state & federal legislators are lawyers (if not most) and because they depend on the status quo to maintain their lifestyle, it is doomed to be forever inherently unjust. There is at least one organization that works for reform, but they are beating their heads against a brick wall. Until the general public says "enough," it will remain as is. I did my undergrad work in criminal justice and political science as an idealist thinking I'd go into the "industry" and change things for the better. HA! Not only did I find the dead end road, but became a victim of the game.
To the Y2K side of things. At many jails and prisons, there are auto lock mechanisms on the bars which shut on a timer. I assume these autolocks are able to be manually turned off and on (via generators? if the lights go out) in emergency situations. I think it was Diane who posted from the San Fran area some coverage on the evaluation of the industry a day or so ago. Any justice officials on this forum that have information on embedded systems at the jails?
-- Other Lisa (LisaWard2@aol.com), January 26, 1999.
"Andy were there any video cameras around. Looking forward to seeing you on an upcoming COPS episode. I am picturing the scene in jail from Easy Rider. Did you call the cops "buggers" or any other good English insults? Did you chant Rodney, Rodney....? How was the food? You should have spoke endlessly about how they will all be toast after y2k, they would have enjoyed that. How the boys from Compton will be coming over to see them, etc.... Glad to you survived to tell this tale. Now back to work finding the great clues to this y2k mystery. "
Bill, I would reply, but it's all simply too much for me, I have to go and lie down again now. It was all quite quite horrific. A stain has forever been left on my blue dress. It was awfull.
Other than that it was a piece-of-piss relatively speaking. There were three chaps I felt especially sorry for. All three because I simply could not imagine spending any more time in the hell-hole (boredom) that they would have to endure.
Guy 1 About 22-24. American white, dumb but harmless, likes "cars." Several priors, the arresting offence being a grand theft auto. he thought he was going to get 6 months - he got 3 YEARS. Maybe less with remission. He was actually laughing - the saddest of the lot. For csy2k folks i thought about Don Scott.
Guy 2. Just finished a CA DUI (drunk Driving). American 38 year old white collar electrician guy - never been in jail before. 52 weeks into the sentence. Did his alc. rehab. programme. Got his licence back. Took 6 months. Just about to go to start a new life in San Francisco and was pulled over after (allegedly) (accidentally so he says?) cutting off someone. That someone called it in on a cellphone. He, foolishly, had drunk a ptcher of bud that afternoon. Less than 1%BAC - but zero tolerance on a DUI prior and 3 year probabtion. He was woried about getting 30 days. He got 60 days - his personal life was ruined. Daughter, 9 years old, in SFO, on her own - who knows? A very very sad mess. At least he's out after 60. Sorta. Guy 3. A Mexican/LA dude. Young - 25 - impeccably dressed in Boss, Adidas, Blass. Kept quiet - not a dickey bird for two days. Turned out he had been accused of a roberry with "guns" - not very clever in CA. He was looing at 12 years - when he returned from seeing Da Judge he was ghostlike.
I just cannot imagine the pain a 25 year old would go through being told "you cease to exist until you are 37..." - I'm being polite.
The same fo dude #1, 3 years please...
I was crawling, almost literally, up the bars after just two days.
Guys 1 and 3 will be 'indisposed' over y2k.
If I were they I would be seriously frightened.
Can you imagine the powerlessness you would feel if you were a y2k "believer?"
On the other hand it could be a boon for the both the #1 and #3 guys - nothing to lose...
Andy the jalbird
-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 26, 1999.
Andy, that experience is bad. Have you explored lawful remedies? Are there any laws actually requiring that a person carry cash & ID? especially at night? What hours? Can you write a letter to the editor and start an expose? Did you get a permanent 'record' you have to go before a judge to get rid of? How can it be so suspect when our society runs 24/7 and there are lots of stores open all hours? Does that city have a curfew?
xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxx
-- Leska (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 26, 1999.
Andy -- what were you charged with? Wobbling?
Maybe in Orange County the cops work on commission??? or piece-work rates???
Is your skin lily-white? If not all is explained.
Other Lisa writes " My belief is because those who make the laws are, 9 out of 10 times, lawyers, and many state & federal legislators are lawyers (if not most) and because they depend on the status quo to maintain their lifestyle, it is doomed to be forever inherently unjust. There is at least one organization that works for reform, but they are beating their heads against a brick wall. Until the general public says "enough," it will remain as is."
More to the point, these people are willing servants, or at best impotent captives, of whatever interest group has paid for their election campaigns. But you have to give them some credit -- they stay bought.
The "general public" can say Enough! as much and as loudly as it wants, but until those terms of employment are changed nothing will change. (Guess who regulates the terms of employment.)
For an eloquent essay on this general topic, read My Checkered Coat. The writer's background is given on this page
For the kvetchers among us, one constructive element apparent in the discussion of Y2K is the possibility of building a more humane world in the future.
-- Tom Carey (email@example.com), January 26, 1999.
You picked the wrong spot in Orange County. Now, in Laguna Beach it is expected that people walk at night -- everybody does -- often in groups, and sometimes wobbly. And the police force are pretty nice guys, and real lifesavers during floods and fires. But, like anywhere else, stick to the lighted and safe pathways, and dont stroll along the beach at midnight, alone.
Most of my life Ive lived in small towns, or larger cities that have a small town feel. Many cops are good guys and some are DEFINITELY NOT. (A fair portion of the L.A.P.D. comes to mind). In a few instances I made friends and got to ride along to see what their life is like (not easy). Its a thrill to rush full siren through town, but at the other end, they never know if a bullet has their name on it that night.
In the town where I currently live, theres a roly polly one who rides a motorcycle with a little statue of Ms. Piggy attached to his handlebars. After attending the local Farmers Market, I once laughed at it and questioned him ... his response ... Ms. Piggys my main lady! Appeal to the human and humorous side, rather than the tough guy side and your experience of cops will often be better.
Sorry you had to go through such an educational experience, Andy! Welcome home.
-- Diane J. Squire (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 26, 1999.
This country became a police state long ago, when peace officers became police officers. Think about it.
If you're about to be arrested anytime between now and Y2K, you might as well do whatever it takes to avoid that. Don't want to be locked up New Year's eve. Toast now, vs. toast then ??
IF TSHTF, our "protectors and servers" had best lay low; a lot of people think they have scores to settle (some rightfully).
-- p (P@poffed.com), January 26, 1999.
1:30 AM drunk what were you thinking you could sell some ass like you do in San Francisco to get more booze or drugs spread a little aids? You are luckey to be alive go back to where you are a queen.The next time do not ware a dress who would believe a 220 pound harry drunk woman flagging down a cop car by mistake. Every time people like you are stopped by a cop you always say that the cop is wrong. Everytime i drive down the road i see drunks like you driving crazy and maybe killing someone. If you were in a car you may have killed someone or yourself. Why worry about the cops and government people like you kill thousands every year. People like you abuse this forum to vent your anger and hurt feelings because you may have ben done wrong by the cops tell everybody crybaby BOO HOO HOO. Why are you in-between jobs were you fired for being drunk on the job sober up Andy you lush.
-- Eye Wittness (Orange@county.com), January 26, 1999.
It sounds like you didn't tell the whole story. Did you jaywalk in front of a car and nearly cause an accident while you were "wobbling?" Did you mouth-off at the cops when they stopped you? Non-existent offense? They had to charge you with something. Drunk in public is the most likely charge--it's illegal almost everywhere in the U.S. I don't buy your spin on the way the cops treated you, it's too one sided. And I doubt that other guy was in jail only for breaking his girlfriend's nail. He probably hit her. If you can't stand a night or two in jail you don't have a chance if things get as bad as you expect. Crybaby.
-- anonymous (anon@...), January 26, 1999.
What were the cops names who beat Rodney King? You think they are posting on this forum?
-- Other Lisa (LisaWard2@aol.com), January 26, 1999.
Sounds like some L.A.P.D.ers to me.
My cousin's, best friend's father was the lawyer who defended the Rodney King cops. (He gives slime a bad name). Oh, the stories I heard! There is a very corrupt police group in L.A! (Some, not all).
I do feel sorry for the good ones though.
-- Diane J. Squire (email@example.com), January 27, 1999.
Andy-LOL. I worked as a paramedic in SF for a long time, so had many occasions to be around cops, and to be out on street corners late at night watching things. Used to laugh with partners wondering what you would have to do to make cops there arrest you. One time in market st. area, we were parked, and a woman was being attacked by 2 men, in front of a car with a cop in it. She ran to them, and they did nothing. My partner was able to call her to us, and she was able to get into the ambulance, and we drove her out of there. Wonder to this day if the cops would've ever done anything for her. Then, i was down in SoCal for a trip, and jaywalked (safely, in the evening, and no alcohol). A passing cop made a U turn, came back, stopped us, and almost ticketed us. (luckily, didn't, but was amazed anyway).
-- Damian Solorzano (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 27, 1999.
Andy, lest you leave the wrong impression about the folks in jail.....
A good friend of the family was charged on a set up (woman said "I'm going to ruin your life!" and proceeded to get him tossed on Sexual Battery charges she made up) informs us that the guys in the higher security institutions are VERY Y2K AWARE!!
(PS The woman was so f**ked up that, while the case was prodeeding, she was still calling him and his landlord (mom) crying for help with car, etc. And trying to get him to marry her. She has also sued for about a mil.)
-- Chuck, night driver (email@example.com), January 27, 1999.
Andy- good story.
Chuck- that woman is a fucked up bitch. Do I get this straight when I say that she's suing your friend because he dumped her? (Either way, it would give me great pleasure to see some MadMax type cut her skull open in order to feast on the gooey insides).
-- Leo (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 27, 1999.
Leo, thanks for drawing the line and crossing to the other side. I guess we all need to be reminded of its' presence and location on occasion.
-- MVI (email@example.com), January 27, 1999.
In defense of the officers who decided to arrest you, what should they have done with you? Let you walk around? get rolled? Get hit by a car? Take you home and put you to bed? Public servants are not that servile in this country. Drunks often don't stay at home anyway. Can police take time out to offer such personal services? Years ago I almost lost my job because one very busy and felonious night I stopped a drunk driver and instead of arresting him I locked his keys in his car and dropped him off at a coffee shop. In the eyes of the law, not arresting him was evidence that I had determined him not to be drunk. From that point on, I was unlawfully detaining him, kidnapping him and preventing him from going about his lawful business. This was in East L.A. by the way, where the folks usually don't have fancy lawyers and money to pursue a complaint against the police.
Didn't Gilbert and Sullivan have a song about, A policeman's lot not being a happy one?"
Bill in South Carolina
-- Bill Solorzano (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 27, 1999.
Andy, welcome to the "New, More Agressive Police Tactics" as touted by President Clinton.
-- Nikoli Krushev (email@example.com), January 27, 1999.
Bill from Redneck Country: If the cops are so "caring", why didn't they just let him out the next AM after he sobered up instead of holding him longer?
"P" said: "This country became a police state long ago, when peace officers became police officers. Think about it." Think about it.
-- z (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 27, 1999.
Andy, good thing neither you nor your cell mates are claustrophic. That can be a real problem.
I always show respect to cops for two reasons. One, they have a tough, tough job to do. High stress, low pay.
Two, my safety is in their hands. A cop can choose to protect me, or beat the hell out of me.
I've experienced two instances of inebriated cops who were VERY close to assaulting me. One cop had nightstick in hand. In both instances, the cops were extremely angry. I was not the source of their anger. I was able to talk them down, so to speak. Other folks haven't been so fortunate.
I've found that a fair number of cops from my old stomping grounds (Somewhere in NJ) were picked on as kids. Seriously. For these folks, becoming a cop gave them a license to deliver paybacks. Power trip. Very scary!
Bottom line: We need them. Some are good people. Show them all respect, unless you are willing to pay the consequences.
-- Bingo1 (email@example.com), January 27, 1999.
Some are good. However the system as a whole is corrupt and unjust. Of course I'm from Arkansas and so my opinion may be a bit tilted. However, a good illustration would be a former Prosecutor from Saline County, Arkansas. One Dan Harmon, currently incarcerated for various crimes involving drugs and corruption. You can read a little bit about him at
to see how deep the corruption goes you may want to spend a little time at the home site
My two cents.
-- Other Lisa (LisaWard2@aol.com), January 27, 1999.
Dear zz@zz or whatever:
When I was a little kid in NYC, I stole a toothbrush from the 5&10 cent store. The cop on the beat kicked me in the ass and sent me home. Can you imagine a cop doing that now? Every kid who steals gets booked. A referral is made to children's services. The kids parents are investigated. The kid could be taken from his parents. Do you really think in todays world a cop can "run some one in and let him sleep it off? It's not the Andy Griffith show anymore. Y'all chose this kind of government. It started in the 60's when cops were pigs.
A society deserves the law enforcement it pays for. I am a veteran of the Watts riots and 3 ELA riots. I have been beaten, shot at, spit upon and vomited upon. I have been called everything but a man by people of the kind that I hope you don't even know exist.
I am willing to bet that the arresting officers in Andy's case stopped to help him out. When they saw his condition, I am sure they said to themselves, "Oh sh-t, why in the hell did I stop". Lots of cops wear blinders when on patrol. They get in trouble for that too.
Bill in south Carolina
-- Bill Solorzano (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 27, 1999.
The charge was "Drunk In Public" - according to the paperwork I received in court 48 hours after being arrested it said I was "a danger to myself or others".
I was walking home from a bar at 1.30am - if I was that drunk why did the barman keep serving me? Well I've since found out that's the way it works in Orange County - zero tolerance - seems what happened to me is a risk you take down here. Moral of the story - order a cab, even if it's only a couple of blocks to where you're going. Or don't go out and have a drink. Stay at home.
I was cordial and respectful to the police, I'm not stupid enough to provoke them, they were just doing their job, maybe they have a quota to fill, who knows?
All I'm trying to say is a lot of you folks have no idea how your "freedom" can be taken away in an instant. Yes it's much much worse in Mexico and Thailand etc. But it's much more civilised in many other countries.
Remember the Swedish guy I told you about - locked up on Friday evening on $30,000 bail (who has $30,000 lying around, or 10% of that for the bondsman) and released, no charges filed, at 5pm Monday afternoon. No access to a lawyer. Only up to 3 local calls allowed. For a tiff with his girlfriend, one broken nail. That could happen to anyone in the USA - hope it's not you. Be careful not to step on your neighbour's dog's paw.
In San Francisco there was a recent case of a white guy, Architect, 50 years old, stopped for allegedly driving a stolen hire car. It was not stolen, the Avis computer had made a mistake, he protested, was arrested and went to one of the worst jails in the projects. He was beaten to within an inch of his life. The cops were laughing as they put hin in the holding tank - they were calling him "Armani-man", they knew what was going to happen to him... He sued the city and lost his case (the perp. got 18 months extra.) It was all over the radio - people were calling in telling their own horror stories (much worse than mine) - turns out this was a normal occurrence in this jail - at least once a month there would be a serious incident, manslaughter occassionally.
End of episode - on to other things, a little wiser.
-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 27, 1999.
I hope any of you pig (cop) apologists have a run-in with them real soon, before Y2K. You need to change from DGI to GI re the police state we live in. If you get educated before Y2K, you just might survive a bit longer, if not indefinitely, if you cease believing "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you."
-- A (A@AisA.com), February 01, 1999.