Predator sightings : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

I am no longer speaking or posting, except anonymously, about y2k, haven't for a while, due to the following incident. A few months ago, a coworker asked me about y2k after hearing about it from his programmer wife and reading the WIRED article. We talked for a few minutes, then he said: Gee, why should I worry about preparing. All I need is your address and a rifle. Then I noticed I was the only one of us laughing at the joke. I've heard the line before, usually aimed at Mormons. That was my "predator sighting," to borrow from Cory, and it has had a definite chilling effect on my public comments about y2k. Has anyone else had similar sightings and is it affecting your y2k openness?

-- Cash (, January 21, 1999


I've heard that same comment several times in personal conversation several months ago, and also on other BB's. I quit talking a long time ago to anyone about Y2K. My neighbor a few weeks ago approached me about Y2K and I haven't really talked much more about it to her. I wait for her to bring up the subject, and I am guessing that either she doesn't trust me about their plans, or they really have not made that great of an effort to stock up. She keeps talking about getting remote lighting put up around their house. So who knows? I'm not saying anything or revealing anything to my neighbors about what I have planned. I think all of them are DGI's...two just had babies.

-- bardou (, January 21, 1999.

There are 16 people where I work who have all essentialy said the same thing to me while at the same time making me out to be the fool, a butt of all their jokes because I am preparing. My answer to them is "I don't feed fools. You were all warned, I begged you to prepare, when TSHTF I will have extra food only for children the elderly and those who did not know what was coming. Don't darken my doorstep.

-- Ann Fisher (, January 21, 1999.

Rule number one : keep your preparations to yourself.

Rule number two : try and spread the word about how bad y2k could be.

Rule number three : how the hell do you follow rules one and two at the same time?

-- Andy (, January 21, 1999.


Time to make your public profile as a "pollyana". To those you talked to before, if topic comes up, say you've reevaluated and think now no big deal.

Myself, I have only "promoted" personally to a very few people -- close friends -- not even "regular" friends, and surely not to the masses of the great unwashed.

-- d (d@d.d), January 21, 1999.

Rule Number Three: Change your address. Get a postbox. Rule Number Four: No Domestic Phone, get a cell phone. Rule Number Five: 'Fade' your data shadow. Pay in cash. Rule Number Six: Fade your public presence. No public appearances beyond July 1999. Rule Number Seven: Form a community of like minded people who will emerge from following Rule Number Two.

-- Bob Barbour (, January 21, 1999.

I'd look at the clown and tell him not to worry because I'd walk over his dead body to the next looter.But in reality(mine not yours) can you in all good faith stand at the door of a burning building and not raise the alarm. I can't. I've gotten a few of my fellow workers to look up and they are preparing. Will it do any good? Your guess is as good as mine.But I at least tried to tell something.

-- nine (, January 21, 1999.

remember the story of the grasshopper and the ant?

-- Joe O (, January 21, 1999.

Andy has framed the dilemma just so but it's not really binary. You don't have to tell everyone everything about what you have, what you're doing, or where it is going. Except for people in bug-out cabins (and even then there will be big-time nuts with serious guns in them thar woods), total invisibility becomes more and more impossible as TEOTWAWKI becomes more possible.

Alliances in/with the right buddies in your local community will be as vital in a TEOTWAWKI scenario (which is when they'll be needed) as individual readiness. This is the year to get those alliances happening (take note of Hamasaki's efforts on this score with DragonFarm and do likewise) not in the middle of chaos.

I may be wrong but I think a lot (not all, a lot) of the predators referred to at the top of this thread are (a) blowing smoke: they're actually cowards and can be dissuaded quickly if you're prepared to "dissuade" them and (b) that most of them will be whining in shelters about why they weren't given a second bowl of rice.

Bob may have a point about fading public presence in our communities after July or so. But that only works if the public happy-face continues, which, personally, I think is still most likely. If panic is happening, all the DGIs will begin to come to us for advice. In which case, continue to implement plan to build allies.

Look, guys, you are platoon leaders about Y2K in your communities. Seriously. You need to discern over next 12 months where the platoon grunts are going to come from and aid them, "train" them and strategize "making it" with them. Andy, I think that this is why, intuitively, we are sounding the alarm as well as all the humanitarian reasons (I'm a Christian: I am not embarrassed about those reasons nor are many of us coming from other backgrounds, I'm sure).

Am I out to lunch on this?

-- BigDog (, January 21, 1999.

I live about 1 1/2 hours from where I've been doing most of my onsite work for the past 6 months, and telecommute the rest. Driving in to the city from the country is a major pain during the winter months...cracks me up when people who live 10 miles away call in sick because "they're snowed in" and I manage to get in early, LOL.

I experienced an "I'll just book on down to your house" scenario occurred a couple of weeks ago.

I've implemented Barbour's and some other methods that should make it an interesting trip if they try to find my address using information, the post office, employee/vendor information, etc.

And my girlfriend thought I was crazy for having multiple phone numbers, a couple of addresses (mostly P.O. boxes located within various townships which are close to one AND personal), multiple email addresses, multiple cell phone numbers...I even have relatives confused at times.

Just had a collegue say that I'm crazy for having to drive so far to work. What concerns me is that if they block off the city in a hurry, I may be trapped and not be able to get back home. Hopefully, I'll be able to see warning signs....

-- Tim (, January 21, 1999.

I *work* with my family, so it's different for me. I have been beating them over the head with this for MONTHS now, with no success. My uncle joked yesterday (after I showed him the TIME article) that they'd just come to our house. I told him very seriously that: a) we will only have enough for ourselves--we are not wealthy and are already paying the BARE minimum on all bills to free up extra $$ for preparations, and b) he lives in a suburb MUCH closer to Dallas proper than we do...and he is in the Dallas county lines. IF what I think will happen DOES happen, he and his family won't be able to GET to our house in a much more outlying suburb and outside the county line. I keep envisioning everyone trying to go "somewhere" (without knowing exactly where) in their cars and clogging the roads(think about the movie Deep Impact). So I doubt they'd make it there. (Not only that, I have been telling him about this for soooo long, he will have no excuse for having not prepared!)

I personally am more worried about my totally unprepared neighbors showing up....I am worried my extended family will just die....morbid, I know, but isn't Y2K pretty morbid?


-- Kellie (, January 21, 1999.

I get dead serious when I hear that "your house" shit. I let them know right then that it they don't prepare and expect to live off of me, the only thing I will have for them is 00 buckshot. I am going to cache most of my food in the spring, in case, FEMA/Nat.Guard asks people for information on known "food horders". I have tried to keep my mouth shut, but I care about the people I work with and our community. I do not discuss my level of preparation with anyone other than my family.

My friend who was on an air force base in Vietnam, said the refugees would try to over run the base for food after Tet. There would be thousands of hungery men, women and children heading for the base. They would warn them to leave, but some were shot and killed for trying to storm the base. Not a pretty sight. He hopes it won't happen here.

-- Bill (, January 21, 1999.

Your can banter TEOTW...'s to your hearts content on this forum. It has become so new age,warm fuzzied,I'm so scared that it turns my stomach. If we get TEOTW... it will be ugly. Period. People will die and the rule of the jungle will ensue. You are either predator or prey. Period. If you aren't predator then you and anything you have is fair game. You can hide, but if you aren't predator you are prey. Your coworker is either a fool or an overconfident predator. Given the threat, you know you have to shoot him before he shoots you. So be prepared when he show up and don't let him even get to the door. Unless you'd prefer to be, lunch?

Sorry if this upsets you but its time for a reality check here - TEOW... this ant TEOW... that. Talk is cheap, take a good hard look and understand the implications. Life will suck compared to the our warm fuzzy times and the dream worlds of Diane and company (no slight intended Diane, your posts can be interesting but in my estimate off base if we get TEOW... because there will be nowhere to go where it is 'normal'.)

Choose your allies, learn your enemies. If you are willing to fight for freedom you may want to let it be known in the right circles (if we get TEOW... do you really think Dicktator Bill will willingly relinquish the throne)

Go figure the plight of post Y2K - on one hand you can trust no one on the other if we don't trust someone the government will take all your freedoms. Life's a beach and Y2K just makes it better.

Hey, who is for lunch?

-- Another Lurker (, January 21, 1999.

This thread got me thinking. Those of us who have prepared and have opted to stay in urban areas don't dare NOT to go to food and water distribution centers (if there are any) lest we be identified as "hoarders" If we accept food and water from these centers while we have provisions at home, then we become true hoarders. Any thoughts?

Bill in South Carolina

-- Bill Solorzano (, January 21, 1999.

I have been getting the word out. I want others to prepare. I plant the seeds and see what happens. I have tried to convince my friends and family to prepare. I could have just prepared and tried to keep it a secret. However, I live in a small town. People see things. They ask questions. Even if I had chosen to keep quiet, I doubt that I could have "kept the secret" long.

I did not chose to keep silent. I hope to influence enough people around here to do some basic preparation. I believe that a prepared community is safer. The fewer people who are desperate, the less risk to those who are prepared. In addition, I care what happens to many of "them". My church is presenting info. soon and advocating preparation. I am getting those calls asking "how do I?" already. I understand fully that being vocal on this topic could cost me my life. I accept that. We are taking precautions. The rest is up to God.

-- Sue (, January 21, 1999.

Bill in S.C. With pandimonium in full bloom, who will be taking head counts? Put a sign on the door "sick & dying in here", some my do that legitimately.

-- curtis schalek (, January 21, 1999.

Going to make 'em run out of gas trying to find ya on a wild goose chase, eh Tim? ;-)


-- spirit (, January 21, 1999.

Sorry to over-simplify, but:

... if they come in peace, accept your hard-fought knowledge and preparation experience (this NG isn't a game, guys, but an ongoing "simulation exercise") have skills and want to stand together with you against OTHER threats, welcome them. You can help them and they can help you, whether they "started out" as GIs or DGIs.

... if they don't, do whatever has to be done to dissuade them at the lowest level of force needed to do the dissuading.

-- BigDog (, January 21, 1999.

Some y2k topics just keep coming around, not because people are dumb, but we just can't find a good answer.

There was a posting from a 'Predator' on Gary North Relocation forum 7 months ago. As always, wish I'd saved it. Said basically "I'm a trained killer. I'm going to kill you and feast on your preparations. You can't stop me, you won't know who I am, I'll be on you before you can react, etc." (you get the idea). It was cleverly written and really jerked the chains of the people over there. The response that got the biggest laugh was a guy whose entire reply consisted of a huge scanned-in color photo of a prarie dog (varmint!) standing on its hill with nose up, with a cross-hair reticle superimposed on his 'kill zone'.

Well, I have 11 guns, of all types, thousands of rounds of ammo for each, etc. But lately I've been thinking on a higher level. I'm not a dogmatic Christian, but I saw another fantastic exchange on Gary North a few months ago. Really made me think. Somebody posted the question "what is your greatest fear about y2k ?" Most of the responses were the usual stuff: food, water, shelter, medicine, neighbors, government, etc. But one guy named "Man From Uncle" posted this line:

My greatest fear is that I will say or do something that will make me ashamed before my savior Jesus Christ

Though I'm not a Christian, I was very impressed and touched. I personally favor reincarnation (Buddhism) as a theory. But either way, I think we should take the long view, and not do things for a few hours/days/months of life that will make our souls ashamed for eternity.


-- Runway Cat (, January 21, 1999.

We handle this a little differently - first off, all of the rest of the folks I'm working with generally remain very low key *except* for me...I'm the contact person, and if someone wants more info on this, generally they point him/her in my direction rather than answering directly. Secondly, I've made it VERY obvious that I am moving this summer - moving hundreds of miles a rural area which was intentionally chosen for it's poor road grid and lack of direct access to the interstate...between that and the fact that I've also been politically incorrect enough to offer firearms training to several members of the staff at our church, nobody has yet bothered to pull the 'predator' nonsense on me directly. Indeed generally speaking it's been my observation that everyone trying to impress others with the 'predator' threat rhetoric has been a wannabe with no clue as to what they're actually talking about.

just my 2 cents' worth, Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (, January 21, 1999.

When the hammer comes down, the predators will come out. They will not be just gang members. They will be 'Jamie, the accountant', and 'Fred, the barber'. If they are unprepared they will have little choice. That is why I have repeatedly stated that to remain in a populated area is suicidal. It matters little how much you have prepared. It does not matter whether you REFUSE to leave or whether you CAN NOT leave. The end result is the same, nevertheless.

You ought to try to help whomever you can. But, NEVER help anyone whom you have warned and they REFUSED to do nothing. Ignore their pitiful faces. They were not pitiful when they were laughing at you six months ago. Now, they should jeopardize you and your family? They have PROVEN that they are NOT your friends by their behavior.

This is not being callous. They do not have the right to jeopardize you because they were complacent.

NEVER be afraid to defend yourself from a bona fide predator. What is the difference between a predator whom you have never seen before , in your life, and your own brother who laughed at you and refused to prepare and now jeopardizes you. Nothing at all.

I have had numerous people say they will come to my house if it goes south. And I tell them that I have STRINGENTLY warned them and they have refused to do anything. Do not expect me to treat you as a 'friend' when you do not treat me as one. If you show up, I will treat you as hostile. Hostile, becuase I warned you, you ignored the warning, and now you are a threat to me and my family.

I will not hesitate to drill them right between the eyes if they lift a hand towards my family.

This is what it is coming to. It is a HORRIBLE shame that we even have to think of such things. It is enough to make you sit down and weep. But, this is reality. You'd better decide NOW what you are going to do and get "OK" with it. That is part of preparedness as well.

-- Paul Milne (, January 21, 1999.

"I am no longer speaking or posting, except anonymously about Y2K". It's good to see that some people are "getting it" to a next level. Don't make the mistake Paul Milne has made and tell the whole world that he has 20 acres with tons of food buried, guns and ammo. He's put his family at risk. When it gets ugly, they will storm his place, poor Paul won't have a chance. Stay invisible. They ask you about Y2K, you ask them "what is that".

-- thinkican (, January 21, 1999.

I post y2k updates above my desk at work every week or so, along with a countdown ("344 days left"). People either ignore it altogether, or shrug, or make lame attempts at humor. No one will admit to taking it seriously or being particularly concerned with the whole thing, nor do I attempt to enlighten anyone beyond urging them to read the weekly postings & investigate for themselves. They're grown-ups; they can either figure it out or suffer the consequences.

-- passively agressive (, January 21, 1999.

On DGIs: "They will not prepare, but they will remember."

-- Jack (, January 21, 1999.

Doesn't the bible say that there were 10 brides? 5 were ready 5 weren't. 5 got to go into the wedding, 5 were told I NEVER KNEW YOU. Sounds pretty plain to me.

-- Ralph (, January 21, 1999.

"Paul Milne [has told] the whole world that he has 20 acres with tons of food buried, guns and ammo. He's put his family at risk. When it gets ugly, they will storm his place, poor Paul won't have a chance."

You might think so, but my money's on Milne. There was a long discussion about this on Usenet a few weeks back. Turns out Paul's in such a remote location that it's next to impossible to find his place even with a map. Try it w/o one & you'll run out of gas and/or starve in the process. Plus the locals are well-armed & decidedly NOT friendly to outsiders, even when things are good.

Why does anyone care anyway? Why do people want Paul to fail? I hope he succeeds. If you read this, good luck, Paul.

-- been warned (, January 21, 1999.

Having some "Quarantine" signs on hand (Smallpox, diptheria, plague, etc) might be a *very* good idea.

-- Elbow Grease (, January 21, 1999.

Being prepared to defend your family is always a good idea. In my view, living in the city in never a good idea.

Having said that: How far away is far enough? How many guns and rounds of ammo is enough? How many friends and neighbors are you prepared to kill to survive? One? Two? Ten? One hundred? What if they all show up at once? What if they have equal or superior fire power? What if they are smarter or faster than you? What if you are asleep? What if they try to burn you out?

Will their screams and cries for help haunt your dreams?

-- Jane (, January 21, 1999.

When TSHTF and the self-proclaimed "Predators" crawl out of the woodwork, if these "predators" have any natural true predatory instinct, then they aren't going for us hard targets. They'll go for the easy pickin's. In Africa, the big, toothy predators don't prefer to attack big, healthy, horned Cape Buffalo, they go after the gazelles, wildebeasts and zebras because they don't put up much fight. Predators in the wild don't enjoy a one hundred percent success rate against even the "meek" prey. They fail three times for every successful kill, and they do sometimes recieve fatal injuries in these "easy" kills. Against more "equal" prey, predators are more like one in ten for success and they are one in for for sufferring fatalities tehmselves.

If Y2K hits and the world goes fully mad then those of us who've prepared to include having and using weapons are going to be the Cape Buffalo (and maybe Rhino's) of the Y2K world. Predators may exist in that world, but they are going to have many more Y2K sheep, gazelles, wildebeast and zebras to pick on before they can even find and much less try and successfully take us down.

I don't look forward to any such "predator" encounter and I honestly envision it to be as common as encountering a poisonous snake. In my life, I've lived in prime snake country for the better part of forty plus years. I've had maybe four instances where I had to take action to move out of a dangerous situation. Once every ten years is pretty good odds.

I know I could have gone in and gotten well in and amongst the vipers if I had wanted to and it would certainly have greatly increased my odds of a dangerous encounter. But just like staying out of prime denning areas keeps you away from snakes, moving out of the cities and densely-packed suburbs to the rural countryside gets you away from the predators and vipers of Y2K society.


-- Wildweasel (, January 21, 1999.

I like that! I think I'll be a hippo, with just my eyes and ears above water, but a big, mean SOB under the water. The hippo is one of the meanest animals on earth and has few, if any, enemies. I think I will post under hippo2000 from now on.

-- Bill (, January 21, 1999.

Well he's from business school and he's nervous with the tool so he ends up on his back in a bloody pool... -Everlast

That's the fact. Most of these so called "preditors" are joking now. If the stuff hits the fan, they'll be improvising. The fact of the matter is that most gun owners (self defense) don't go through more than a box of ammo in a year. Those of us that are taking this seriously enough to arm ourselves are practicing (I assume). I cycle about 200 rounds through my .45 a week and about the same for my .22 pistol. I'd shoot more, but I can't afford it (and keep my stash of ammo). Those people out there that think they can pick up a 9mm or a .45 and shoot like the cops are in for a terminal surprise. The "preditors" will be ill prepared for their conquests. I've shot hundreds of rounds at targets and it still really bothers me when I think about what the target represents. Hopefully, through practice, I'll aim at the center of mass and deal with the emotions later. The idiots out there won't be making themselves ready. If you have a gun, make sure that you can aim quickly at the center of mass and pull that trigger. Practice is the only way to do this (unless you're a psycho). I don't want to hurt anyone. I don't think that the most "extreme" people here want to face a life or death situation. There isn't any way to avoid this issue now. The "President" has screwed us, Time has screwed us, very few people are going to be converting at this late date. Wave the GI flag high, because there isn't much time left.

-- d (, January 22, 1999.

I've been a survivalist for about 25 years now, and I've met other survivalists that run the gamut from totally pacifistic to those who only stockpile guns. How do you think the ones with nothing but guns plan to get food? Pretty obvious, I think. If things get bad, the people who know about your preparations aren't the only ones you'd have to worry about. In a scenario where things are pretty bad, people will have lots of time on their hands, with nothing to do but try to find food. I'm not too worried about the grasshoppers who know about what I'm doing. I figure they'll probably be vastly outnumbered by the other few million grasshoppers in this country. The numbers can be interesting. Last I looked the population in the US was around 265 million. I doubt if more than 5% is doing anything meaningful to prepare. Do the math. That leaves lots of people with lots of time on their hands to look for food. I've always considered it important to not tell people everything I'm doing, but also thought that nobody can think of everything. You might find someone else to discuss preparations with. You might also find out that there was something important that you hadn't even thought about.

-- Noah Simoneaux (, January 22, 1999.


Again, click-click.

d (,

You might want to visit Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC (Ret'd) at this link , before you chisel your comment (Those people out there that think they can pick up a 9mm or a .45 and shoot like the cops are in for a terminal surprise.) in stone. According to the guru of gunfighting, for every cop that can shoot like the ones on TV, there are 8 or 9 who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if they were in it. He cites numerous instances of police shootings where there were anywhere from 25 to several hundred shots fired by the police only to have the autopsy reveal as few as three or four hits.

Having said that, your point is well taken. Only a fool assumes expertise with a firearm based on observation of the garbage that passes for programming on American TV.

-- Hardliner (, January 22, 1999.

Yeah, Hardliner. Even frequent range practice is beyond most people's attention span. And check the targets at your local range, even experienced people don't shoot well. Now on top of that, add Mas Ayoob's comment that range practice at static paper targets is unrealistic "ballistic masturbation", and that much more stressful training is mandatory, you begin to get the picture. Personally I have many dozens of times more hours of training with guns of all types than most police officers in this country. And always remember, handguns are pretty useless, their only value is to buy you time while you fight your way back to your rifle.


The Bad Guys Have a Default Tactical Advantage !

Why, you ask ? Think about it, we are 'decent' people our default setting is: don't shoot (cause we want id that the person needs to be shot, we worry about innocents/backstop,etc.). The bad guys default setting is shoot, cause they don't care about those things I listed. This gives them a significant tactical advantage, so that even though their training/handling is usually inferior to trained private citizens in many cases, they can win because of this tactical advantage. You have to be pretty good to overcome that, as a 'good guy'.


-- Runway Cat (, January 22, 1999.


-- rc (, January 22, 1999.


Your post reminds me of a film I saw in Africa that was taken by a Life magazine photographer. This guy sat at a mudhole in the bush for weeks, waiting for the crocodile in the water to feed. Eventually a herd of impala came to drink and the croc' flashed up and grabbed one. The antelope struggled mightily as you would expect, and in the middle of that struggle, a female hippo came charging in and proceeded to "stomp" on the croc' "big time". I have no idea where she came from, but as they don't get too far from the water, the mudhole must have been close to a river. Anyway, the croc' quickly retreated and then the most amazing thing happened. The hippo gently took the impala's entire head into its mouth as if attempting to breath life back into it (hippos are herbivores)! Although the hippo's motivation can only be guessed at, it was theorized that since the enmity between the hippo and the crocodile is ancient (crocodiles regularly feed on baby hippos when they can), that the female hippo acted according to genetic programming (instinct) and executed a "program" that was "written" to protect its own young.

At any rate, you're right on about hippos. You don't want to get on the wrong side of one!

For those of you who remember the impala, sadly it did not survive. The hippo eventually gave up its "artificial respiration" attempts and left. Soon after, the vultures were on the antelope's carcass and it was soon, in turn, claimed by the crocodile.

-- Hardliner (, January 22, 1999.

off again

-- rc (, January 22, 1999.

RC--re: the comment from the man who said

I say "AMEN" to that!

The greatest of all disasters is an eternity spent in hell.

-- Zoe (a@a.a), January 22, 1999.

The craziest part is that I would be surprised if many predators would know what to do with our supplies if they had them: almost all basics that require processing and time to prepare, and you have to know how to use a solar oven too, (kerosene only for back-up in this climate).

-- Maria (, January 22, 1999.

Someone I know once said that there are 4 requisites that looters need to achieve before they can use your stuff. 1) they have to know about it, 2) They have to know what they want (you can't take everything, after all), 3) they have to defeat you to get it, 4) they have to know what in the hell to do with what they took. Probably few qualify in all 4 areas.

I have yet to have a "predator encounter", but I've thought about what I'd say. Basically, "if I warned you, and you didn't care enough to prepare, WHY should I care about you enough to help you?! DO NOT show up at my place asking for help, because you won't get it."

DWGI's are practicing something that I saw in a Larry Niven book years ago: "consider it evolution in action". They probably won't make it, except through sheer dumb luck.

-- Bill (, January 22, 1999.

Maybe simplistic, but i think of predators in terms of the theory of culling: This relates to the order with which most people in a true survival situation will either die off or survive. The people who will die first are the first cull. They are the people who are completely unprepared, the weak, elderly, the people who are physically and unemotionally unprepared to survive in a world completely gone crazy. The second cull are the people who are unprepared, but are strong enough to survive for a time, but unprepared to make the mental switch to survival living. This would be many young people in 20's-40's i would guess. The third cull is the predator. He can survive as long as there are people and/or goods to prey upon, but in the end cannot survive on his own. The survivor is the rare person who is prepared, clever, and able to meet the physical and emotional demands of a crisis situation. Thinking about it in this way is strange as you look around you at the people you know, and yourselves, and mentally put people into a 'category'. Could drive you crazy, but useful, if you think about it in terms of yourself, also. Where in this category can you honestly place yourself?

-- Damian Solorzano (, January 23, 1999.

If I have to deal with looters, my weapon of choice is my 12 ga. with 8 rounds of 00 buck. I will have a 9mm on my side, but only as back up or very close range. I have shot hundreds of round through the 9mm, but you have to aim a pistol. My shotgun is point and shoot and with 00 buck very deadly. If you don't have time to train, and you are buying one defensive gun make it a high capacity 12 gauge shotgun.

-- Bill (, January 23, 1999.

The basic rule is people just dont want to be wrong or critized about anything some cant admit when they know they are wrong, some or most just follow the crowd, unfortuantely the crowd still thinks everything will be peachy-keen. By the time they realize the peach is rotten too bad.

-- moose (, January 23, 1999.

Y2k Hippo,

If you are serious about defending your abode, I suggest that you get something better than a 12ga shotgun. Shotguns are subject to too many limitations, in my experience and opinion, to make them great defensive weapons. 1) ammo is heavy/bulky. 2) generally low capacity 3) ever try to reload or use a pump shotgun prone? 4) ever shoot a shotgun weakhanded, or one handed? No fun. 5) short effective range (MOST barrels won't keep even 1 pellet on a head-sized target reliably at 25+ yards - TRY it for yourself, simulating a target who is using cover and only the head is exposed), and if you configure it for 100+ yard slug use, it's much less effective in close w/buckshot. 6) it's a real pain to be using buck for in close work and then have the need to engage a 100 yard target, while you have a tube mag full of buckshot. Try to change out the ammo in a hurry, and then load it with slugs. Takes way too long.

I suggest that you get a military semi-auto rifle. Choose either .223 or .308 caliber, as these are commonly available, and are military calibers. 7.62x39 will do also Make sure you have SP ammo, as it is deadlier (SP's are for killing, and FMJ's are for wounding).

Make sure you have lots of ammo, and plenty of magazines. For home defense/area defense, where you aren't walking even 10 miles a day, the .308 is ok. If you are even remotely considering bugging out on foot, get the .223. Much lighter weight gun and ammunition.

As for not having to aim shotguns, that's a load of crap. Even at 5 yards, the pattern isn't much bigger than 4", and you sure do have to aim such a pattern, if you want to get more than a graze, or more than a few of your pellets on target (the whole point of a shotgun is many hits at the same time, and if you graze him, that negates the whole point). An individual 00 Buck pellet is about as effective as a .380 FMJ round - ie, not very effective. You need the multiple hits.

Using slugs, it's just like a rifle, only a larger slug; you DO have to aim it.

Just my perspective on shotguns.

-- Bill (, January 24, 1999.

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