It's feeding time again.

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

There are forces in the universe, primary forces, that are sustained by the energy released when organic life ceases to "exist." For these forces, pain and death are food.

As part of the ongoing "Dance of Life," we have cooperated with these forces to provide them with their sustenance. All organic life plays a part in the death and rebirth cycle. As human beings have emerged as the dominant and only sentient life form on this planet, we have come to command a particular place in this drama. Non-sentient life provides the nourishment for the more mundane forces of the universe, "the background noise", if you will. Sentient life provides a more enriched form of nourishment for the "higher levels" of universal consciousness. As the environment degrades, the balance of rich-rough nourishment that these forces require shifts.

Wars are by far the most obvious example of how we provide this nourishment to the forces in question. Famine and pestilence serve the same purpose. As we feed these forces, they become stronger, and the stronger they become, the more nourishment they require to keep growing. The quality of nourishment is different when large numbers of young men are killed on a battlefield than when Grandma dies in her bed.

Throughout history, we have come to explain these forces using a variety of labels. We have created rituals to control these forces to a degree and work their needs into the flow of our societies. Atrocities commited in the name of God or Leader are irrelevant to the needs of the "Engine of the World. " The cycle moves forth; we continue to move with it.

Just as we have times of plenty and lean times, feasts and famines, these forces have "feeding cycles." If you backtrack through recent and ancient history, you can see how these cycles play out. This century has seen an increase in the amount and quality of energy released, the peak being during "World War Two." Since that time, the cycle has tapered off a bit and now a new "wave" of "feasting" is on the horizon.

It's feeding time again.

This forum is concerned with the specifics of the "Year 2000 Computer Problem." It's participants are concerned with how to cope with the effects of this problem. The forces that I refer to are concerned with the timely deliverance of their next meal. Much of the discussion here, in a roundabout way, deals with this. "Executive Orders" and "Media Reports" and "Military Exercises" and "Faith in God" are not going to stand in the way of the inevitable, and in fact they only serve to make it happen. Please...just...be aware of this.

.

-- a (b@c.def), January 16, 1999

Answers

well, as long as they will settle for rice & beans, I think we can accomodate them. :)

Hitler was rumored to be aware of the "energy" you refer to. Are you saying that humans in the world's governments are in kahoots with ET?

-- a (a@a.a), January 16, 1999.


Abc:

As sad as that post is... after watching how the American economy boomed during and after WWII I can see your point. After the destruction Hiroshima and Nagasaki it was painfully obvious that pain and death are needed to fuel the forward advancement of life. Just as the old leaves drop off and make up the canopy floor of the forest to give much needed nurishment, so it is with humans, but much more dramitcally and caustically.

Thanks for the insight.

-- TenBears (Apalled@WashingtonDC.com), January 16, 1999.


Abc:

As sad as that post is... after watching how the American economy boomed during and after WWII I can see your point. After the destruction Hiroshima and Nagasaki it was painfully obvious that pain and death are needed to fuel the forward advancement of life. Just as the old leaves drop off and make up the canopy floor of the forest to give much needed nourishment, so it is with humans, but much more dramitcally and caustically.

Thanks for the insight.

-- TenBears (Apalled@WashingtonDC.com), January 16, 1999.


Oh dear. I've really tried, but I can't understand this post. There are cycles to history, yes. The planet cannot sustain the overpopulation and degradation of natural resources, agreed. But what are the "'forces' in the universe, primary forces, that are sustained by the energy released when organic life ceases to "exist." For these forces, pain and death are food?"

Reading thru your post, abcdef, I couldn't get a handle on what this force could be that needs to be fed? Is this an ancient sentient sacrificial devouring entity? It's not God, or Satan, or Kali, or anything I've ever heard of. Not that I specialize in macabre war ghouls ;) Could you explain this more?
Thanks, Leska

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 16, 1999.


Sounds like H. P. Lovecraft.

You may be right, a, but there are higher forces that can feed off more refined emotions of love and hope as well. And they have power too.

-RC

-- runway cat (runway_cat@hotmail.com), January 16, 1999.



RC - I dunno, it sounds like a bad weekend of too much pot, munchies and cheap video rentals to me...you'd think these kids like ab would have better sense than to leave all their homework until Monday...

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), January 16, 1999.


For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

-- (777@777.777), January 16, 1999.

I liked it. I thought it made sense. Arlin, just because a person has thoughts different from yours, doesn't mean he/she is riddled with durgs and videos. I've heard words from the pulpit that made less sense. Read Becker's Denial of Death.

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), January 17, 1999.

Arlin- exactly my thoughts, but you forgot the heavy metal music ;)

-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), January 17, 1999.

No, Arlin, no drugs or bad movies. No Heavy Metal music. Those things are not neccessary or particularly interesting. Just a long, careful and varied study of history and religion. Just a deliberate effort to strip away the conditioned views of society in order to gain a clearer understanding of "what's really going on." Try it sometime. I'm certain that your intelligence applied in this area will lead you to insights that, in hindsight, would appear obvious.

Lovecraft and Hitler, among others, had an insight into this. Often, the "crazy ones" do. Sometimes they are not so attached to conventions as to be permanantly blinded to the wider scope of reality. "Leaders" who are aware of this are not so much "in cahoots" with a conscious entity, as feeding their own desires and as a result these forces are fed by the consequences of the "Leaders" actions. These are not forces that one can have a conversation with, just as one can not have a conversation with a clock.

Leska - God, Satan, Kali - these and many others are labels that humans have given these forces depending on the cultural context. They are all manifestations of the same thing. They are all completely irrelevant and totally relevant at the same time. They are not "war ghouls" but a neccessary part of the structure of the universe. As Ten Bears mentions leaves nourishing the forest, this is simply a part of the Life/Death cycle. It's just that Human life and "The Soul" if you must, provides a richer quality of nourishment.

Yes, Love and Hope and good emotions provide nourishment also. But, it's not a "War" between opposing forces here. They are a part of the same cycle. They require each other. Just because we do not understand these forces, or disagree with their existence or motives does not mean that are not being played out.

Our battle is not against rulers or authorities, but rather against the poor judgement they use and the actions they take in trying to contain or disregard these forces, or in appealing to these forces for their own purposes. Many primitive societies viscerally understood these forces much more clearly than we "civilized" people do. Using ritual and sacrifice, they structured the flow of their societies in a way as to give these forces what they need without disrupting the flow of life. We "civilized" people take a "timeout" from "normal" life every generation or two in order to provide a "feast." We are so afraid of death that we either try to ignore it completely, or we engage in it wholesale.

We've been ignoring it for a while.

-- a (b@c.def), January 17, 1999.



abcdef, I still can't grasp the personification of your death-hungry-thirsty force. In war, the lust for brutality comes from *man's* aggressive latent bestiality, always simmering beneath the veneer of civility, and is exacerbated by mob blood-bath urging and fear.

We are around death a lot, and see and feel the Angel of Death; He is not possessed by any awful hideous thirsty force. Nor does He bring with any miasma of battlefield swirl. He is terrible to behold in an extremely concentrated way, but is no automaton and is followed by God. He is not greedy with His collections.

Are there past war participants on the Forum who have experienced what abcdef is talking about? We are about to be visited by the Angel of Death and I will directly ask Him if there is truth to the above portrayal of a death-thirsty force. I am absolutely serious about this.

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 17, 1999.


So, the Aztecs were right? Clinton could reopen the Temple of the Sun, rip out a few beating hearts, and avert the Y2K crisis?

Take heart, gentle reader. There are those on this forum who recognize this for the unmitigated lunacy that it is.

-- Ned (entaylor@cloudnet.com), January 17, 1999.


In much of Africa right now it's already happening. People complain about violence in the newspapers, but I find that much of the horror that goes on daily in other parts of the world is never even mentioned, much less covered, in our media, & most of us in the West are blissfully unaware of it.

On a personal note: While there's no glory in being a spinster, I'm truly thankful now that I've never had children.

-- xyz (not@aol.com), January 17, 1999.


>>Using ritual and sacrifice, they structured the flow of their societies in a way as to give these forces what they need without disrupting the flow of life. We "civilized" people take a "timeout" from "normal" life every generation or two in order to provide a "feast." We are so afraid of death that we either try to ignore it completely, or we engage in it wholesale.

We've been ignoring it for a while. <<

abc,

No, "We" have not been ignoring it. While you have been busy reinventing a cosmological wheel to suit yourself, hosts of people have understood and lived (and died) knowing the Truth. There is no "purity" or "innocence" to primitive societies, and there is no innate "sin" or "evil" to modern civilization per se either. There is no "noble savage."

If there is any substance at all to your philosophy as you have so far presented it, it is the horrific, debased concept that wholesale human sacrifice has some efficacy in curing the ills of current society. Get real.

777 has it right.

-- Elbow Grease (Elbow_Grease@AutoShop.com), January 17, 1999.


As strange as it may sound, we decided not to have children because years ago I anticipated the collapse of our civilization.

I believe we amplify each others thoughts. We are connected by them and maybe with all living things in our universe. And with God.

Over the years I have invented numerous unrelated things. Often it was not one or two years later that someone else would produce identical items. Other inventors, composers and artists have had similar experiences.

-- fly . (.@...), January 17, 1999.



I hope you will forgive me for being a little paragmatic about the, "Angel of Death" There is nothing spooky or holy about being dead. I was a Homicide Detective for 10 years. The only times I waxed poetic about death was when I was trying to get a woman to go home with me from a bar. If I remember correctly it was, "These old eyes have seen death too many times" Then stare at your drink for effect.

Becoming dead should be the last thing on anyones list of things to do today. Bad people, good people, young people and old people all die. It should not be something to fear, certainly nothing to embrace.

I don't think that death hurts. Being sick or injured I think does hurt. I have seen lots of folks who had killed themselves out of physical pain, but more out of psychological pain and lonliness. I wish that people who attempt suicide would be made to tour their local Coroners office. You know, like the, "Scare them straight" program where first offenders are taken on a tour of the prisons?

To sum up, I don't think there is any entity that feeds on death or hunger or pestilance. Dieing is just one more natural function. Society has made a great mystique out of it. Ask people who work with the dead. Undertakers, Pathologists, Embalmers.

Bill in South Carolina

-- Bill Solorzano (notaclue@webtv.net), January 17, 1999.


Bill in South Carolina, the process and moments preceding, during, and following death are both spooky and holy. This is not to romanticize it, but fact. Maybe the difference in our experience is that you work with the dead; Ashton & I work with the dying. We have not spent time with the newly dead [body] past 24 hours.

The Angel of Death most definitely is real. There may be more than one, but our experience has been with the same one in a variety of situations and locales.

I believe as you do: "I don't think there is any entity that feeds on death or hunger or pestilance." But since I am not sure, I will ask. Going to an honest reliable Source is always a good idea.

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 17, 1999.


"To sum up, I don't think there is any entity that feeds on death or hunger or pestilance. Dieing is just one more natural function. Society has made a great mystique out of it. Ask people who work with the dead. Undertakers, Pathologists, Embalmers. --- Bill in South Carolina"

Does your world-view include a belief in angels/devils? -- or the idea that the universe is a battleground between good & evil? If not, that doesn't surprise me. I suspect that people who deal with death (undertakers, pathologists, embalmers) on a daily basis could not function if they were cursed with an imagination.

Unhappily, some of us are.

-- believer (imnot@aol.com), January 17, 1999.


ab, good post. That's my view of the world in a nut shell.

"But what are the "'forces' in the universe, primary forces, that are sustained by the energy released when organic life ceases to "exist." For these forces, pain and death are food?" --Leska

The "forces" can be described as Mother Nature, the global ecosystem, the universe, the "as the world turns". We are on the same level as ants in front of those forces. We think too highly of ourselves as humans in front of those forces, therefore it's difficult to grasp. The universe, and therefore earth, goes its course, with or without humans on it.

ab made a nice allegoric explaination of it.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), January 17, 1999.


These Angels and Forces must have a sense of humor as well as an apetite for death. I have found many old folks who have died sitting on the toilet, or leaning over the kitchen sink, that one can only conclude that death feels like needing to have a bowel movement or throwing up.

Bill in South Carolina

-- Bill Solorzano (notaclue@webtv.net), January 17, 1999.


The forces of evolution, cycles, life & death, death feeding life, all normal, agreed. Devouring Time, accept. Personalized conscious conniving thirsty hungry greedy malicious death force? Have to find out.

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 17, 1999.


An older person with a fragile system can pass on by the exertive pressure of bowels on venal nerves causing the heart system to stop.

Heart attacks and strokes cause nausea, which leads one to lean over the sink for relief. These are symptoms arising from scientific mechanical processes well documented in the medical profession.

Anita Evangelista can describe these processes thoroughly.

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 17, 1999.


Leska:

This is exactly my point. Natural process without leathery wings being wrapped around the newly departed.

Bill in South Carolina

-- Bill Solorzano (notaclue@webtv.net), January 17, 1999.


Most of us have heard about abused children growing up to be abusive parents. We know how the disease of racial prejudice can be passed from generation to generation.

It isn't hard to see that humans are often subject to forces they're not aware of. An even better example is urban legends. Some of these are so durable that they can outlast the lifespan of the people who originally told them.

Is this what "a" is talking about, or is it human sacrifices that he's talking about?

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), January 17, 1999.


Sweet, compassionate Leska - there is no personification of this. Anthropomorphising these forces is an exercise in futility. Angels and Devils are human constructs invented to deal with these and other forces in terms that we can understand. Man's aggressive nature is part of the cycle of Life/Death and part of the mechanism that provides the energy that these forces require. We have been enculturated to believe that it is our own foibles that cause the conditions for "War" etc, when in reality that enculturation is simply a way of explaining it in order to make it more bearable. The cycle of Life/Death was not made for our benefit, or vice-versa. We are simply a part of it.

No, Clinton could not "reopen the temple of the sun..." to avoid the "Y2K" crisis. That is a simplistic and amusing little joke, and you know it. The "Y2K" crisis is simply another in a long line of collective subconscious screwups that we have perpetrated upon ourselves in our utter lack of cognizance of the fact that the world spins long after our brief lives have ceased. It's another example of the superficial mentality under which Human Beings labor. And, it will most likely create the preconditions for another wholesale "bloodletting." Yes, these things are happening in Africa and Kosovo and other places as we speak. This has always happened and always will. However, in the last few centuries, as we have fed these forces more and more, their requirements increase with their strength.

Elbow Grease - "There is no "purity" or "innocence" to primitive societies, and there is no innate "sin" or "evil" to modern civilization per se either. There is no "noble savage."

This is ultimately true. "Purity" and "Innocence", "Sin" and "Evil" are, again, human constructs. Different societies view different things as being "Sins" for example. The Bushmen of the Kalahari and members of the United States Senate are all equal in their humanity. One type of society or one approach to living is no "better" or "worse" than another. It all simply is. And while I certainly do not advocate the "horrific, debased concept that wholesale human sacrifice has some efficacy in curing the ills of current society," I do recognize that the unseen and unseeable forces of nature do not care what we think about them. These forces are not concerned with "the ills of society" and do not function to create or solve those ills. They and we are simply functioning inside of the parameters under which we must function.

As Bill suggests, dying is a natural function. However, he makes the mistake of looking for an "Entity" that does or does not feed upon this energy. Let me try what might be a more accurate metaphor. It's not like feeding a hungry animal, it's more like winding a clock.

And the clock is winding down.

-- a (b@c.def), January 17, 1999.


Bill, death involves mechanical biochemical processes. Death also has an overriding spiritual component. If you have never experienced this, I can understand your disbelief. Once one experiences it, tho, it is hard to forget.

I have experimented with this, attending deaths with the determination to ignore/block the spiritual aspect, to see how much might be figments of mind, etc. I have spent night after night in a large hospital, making rounds of the dying, desensitized by sheer exhaustion and mass physical vibrations and duties.

But the Angel of Death and God cannot be stayed or blocked once having made the connection, and the coming is so intense and pronounced as to bring one to his knees at the most unexpected moments. At the University Hospital, Ashton & I, hired as a team, quickly became infamously known as the ones who unerringly pointed out which patients would be dying soon.

How could we tell when the Drs couldn't? Why were we put in charge of the Code Cart? Why were we the ones who got in trouble by going over everyone's head to get the respiratory therapists and specialists in STAT so our team would not have to be stuck calling a Code when we were harried and understaffed? Why did everybody grudgingly agree when we said it was time for a quick transfer to ICU?

It was not because we had more extensive medical training than the internationally acclaimed neurosurgeon or cardiologist. It was because we had become so attuned to the Angel of Death and the spiritual herald of physical exit that we felt that impact no matter how we tried to block it.

The pull of that spiritual experience is so great that we feel magnetized and drawn to hospice again and again, despite its difficulty. The contact with God and spiritual forces is of course available in much easier and happiers ways, which we milk, but Death comes with this no matter OUR state. Therefore, death is a "free ride" into God's presence, a sure bet.

Ashton & Leska in Cascadia, a thirsty force for God's attention

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 17, 1999.


"At the University Hospital, Ashton & I, hired as a team, quickly became infamously known as the ones who unerringly pointed out which patients would be dying soon.

How could we tell when the Drs couldn't? Why were we put in charge of the Code Cart? Why were we the ones who got in trouble by going over everyone's head to get the respiratory therapists and specialists in STAT so our team would not have to be stuck calling a Code when we were harried and understaffed? Why did everybody grudgingly agree when we said it was time for a quick transfer to ICU? "

I am as able to pinpoint the "moment" Leska, and as you know, I'm not religious. Your ability, what you call "attuned to the Angel of Death", is an inate subconscious ability; you've acquired over time information, a myriad of clues in a dying person, that permits you to determine acurately when it is "time", when that person will code, die, or is struggling with life. What's more amazing to me Leska, is the fact that many doctors and veteran nurses seem unable, or even unwilling at times, to pinpoint the "time".

Forgive me for pointing out the non-religious explanation. I respect you greatly Leska. My intent is not to dissuade you of your belief. It is in the spirit of discussing different point of views.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), January 17, 1999.


abc,

I can understand Leska's, Chris', and Bill's POV, which are all experience-based, but, discounting drugs, etc., what is the source of your epiphany?

-- Elbow Grease (Elbow_Grease@AutoShop.com), January 17, 1999.


Without being too specific, for a number of years I was a monk in a religious order, I've travelled the world and lived in other cultures, I read EVERYTHING and I currently teach history in a major university.

-- a (b@c.def), January 17, 1999.

I think what ab is saying is that suffering is Natures (or Gods) way of making us ask the important questions and take the appropriate actions. If life was always a bowl of cherries, we would never have evolved from lower forms, as we would have continually been in harmony with our world and would have spent the rest of eternity eating berries, swinging from trees, sleeping and having sex. Instead, early man was confronted by life threatening experiences on a daily basis and he evolved mentally and physically in response to dealing with them successfully. I think that we try and personify these experiences and it leads to all sorts of interesting interpretations and beliefs, all shaped by man's history, just as man was shaped himself.

As I write this, Dateline is on the TV. They are talking about how medical science deals with cancer patients pain. It's hard for modern society to believe, but pain is a very natural part of life. ab's point is that if we supplant it entirely, our development may be adversely affected.

-- a (a@a.a), January 17, 1999.


Human death is not caused by, and does not feed, some grim Moloch that receives energy from the event. People die because it is part of God's plan. Satan upset the applecart in the Garden, and humanity has been paying for our forebears' mistake ever since with a standing death penalty laid upon all. Jesus Christ washed our sins away so that we can, when resurrected, stand blameless before God at the hour of judgement, and experience eternal life. It is man's own sinful (i.e., lawless) nature that causes the wars, contention and strife that plague our world. There is no need to invoke ill-defined mystical forces to account for the overall miserable state of humanity in the twentieth century.

The devil will sit on the shoulder of anyone who lets him...

EOF

-- Why2K? (who@knows.com), January 17, 1999.


abc,

I don't mean to dwell on this but, why can you not be more specific? All I've understood so far is that you are a synthesizer. How is that different from Charlie Brown?

-- Elbow Grease (Elbow_Grease@AutoShop.com), January 17, 1999.


a@a's and Why2K's posts are perfect illustrations of how humans obfuscate reality. a@a, while everything you say is absolutely true, this was not what I was implying. I meant what I said literally.

Why2K adds layers of human construct to explain the universe and its machinations in particular cultural terms. "Sinfulness," however, is something than mankind is not. This is simply mankind's psychology trading "guilt" for self-immolation. Everything that is, simply is. (Clinton jokes aside) There is no "judgement" in the universe, only by humans. The universe does not judge, it moves according to laws that are beyond human scope. The "Devil" is an enculturated construct of your imagination.

One of the "problems" that we have in trying to comprehend things, of universal scale in particular, is that we tend to complicate rather than simplify. Many of you are adding these ideas as another layer OVER what you already know rather than stripping away what you already know and using this as an UNDER LAYER to explain things that you can already see. It's not really such a big deal if you try to comprehend these ideas in their essence.

I want to add that this is not meant as some sort of denial or refutation of existing cultural constructs or belief systems. (religions) There are naturally some of those things that are "right" and some that are "wrong." All that doesn't really matter.

Your experience is all that really matters.

To you.

-- a (b@c.def), January 17, 1999.


Oh, you want to get technical! Here's one of today's posts from a mailing list on post quantum physics:

The universal scale of spontaneous sentience from post-quantum self-organization from the direct back-action of the motion of animate matter on its guiding quantum information field, is the inverse Hubble constant H^-1 approximately 3 10^17 seconds. This is what I meant when I loosely said "age of the universe". I mean this standard cosmological parameter.

That is

Tao = H^-1 = inverse Hubble constant of the expanding universe.

The Hubble constant is related to the average mass density rho in the standard classical cosmological model as

rho = 3H^2/4piG

This formula may need modification in the accelerating universe cosmological model with a repulsive cosmological constant accounting for perhaps 70% of the effective mass of the universe.

Any protected quantum computing network of N coherently active entangled q-bits screened from all sources of environmental decoherence is predicted, in my post-quantum theory beyond orthodox quantum theory, to have a duration of a moment of conscious experience Ts given by

Ts = H^-1/N

For N = 10^18 caged electrons in the human brain today, this gives about .3 seconds if all of the caged electrons are active.

So, in post-quantum theory, Hawking's "Mind of God" is linked to H^-1.

(Dr. Jack Sarfatti)

=====

According to this theory, the mechanism of life seems to be information being transmitted back in time by ourselves (human race) in the future, via the same type of interaction that gives rise to life itself. It's referred to as "back-action" and has to do with the cytoskeleton present in all living cells. Microtubles in the cytoskeleton are tubes lined with countless protein dimers that are switched into one of two configurations based on the spin of one electron. They act as "nanoswitches" in a quantum computer that is driven by quantum standing waves in the ordered water molecules filling the tubes. They have just recently come up with equations that define how a moment of consciousness is created and are close to being able to design a conscious computer! The above analysis indicates that for a human brain sized group of electrons (a million trillion) the conscious moment is on the order of a third of a second. This theory also predicts that every object has a computable "moment of consciousness", even a single electron. However, for an electron, the moment would be almost as long present age of the universe... It is interesting to note that his physics is closely related to Eastern religions in that intelligence is not something that is restricted to the higher animals, but is present in all life forms.

Further reading:

http://www.reed.edu/~rsavage/microtubules.html

http://www.qedcorp.com/book/index.htm

-- a (a@a.a), January 17, 1999.


ab, you've essentially explained my atheistic views. Eloquently. And one of my strong held opinion is that it is hitting one's head against a brick wall to discuss one's views among religious people. One first needs to want to think outside the box to understand what you've said. One cannot make anyone want anything.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), January 17, 1999.

sorry, abc...no sale...either you're openly demonized (which would normally be a contradiction in terms, though on this board it's just barely possible) or you're simply an eclectic troll...hmm, or possibly both...

and yes I know Monday is Martin Luther King day, but if you got started on those term papers now, you wouldn't have to pull all nighters the last week of the term, now would you?

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), January 17, 1999.


Reminds me of a-i think- buddhist saying: the chicken eats the bug, we eat the chicken, who eats us? I know of a teacher who talked about the universe as a system designed to process awareness. The problem with analogies such as this, is that whatever does or does not exist is so far beyond the abilities to conceive or discuss, that to do so is to do a gross disservice to whatever is there. However, one thing that is very similar to what i think abcdef is trying to say that this person also used to talk about was a particular entity (no god or devil or angel, demon, whatever, just an entity) that would feed on the awareness of highly sentient organisms- of which humans were one type of 'chicken'. This would result in an overall lack of awareness, a narcicistic egotism that made the being unable to see anything beyond it's own needs and desires. This, he said, was one of the gravest problems facing humans today. Well, not saying i do or don't believe it, but sometimes i look around me and wonder...what if it were true?

-- Damian Solorzano (oggy1@webtv.net), January 18, 1999.

Couldn't we discuss the immanentization of the eschaton somewhere other than a y2k forum? Or rather, could we just not discuss it all? I got enough heebie-jeebies already from that little computer glitch thingy.

-- humptydumpty (no6@thevillage.com), January 18, 1999.

"The Immanentization of the Eschaton"

Now, there's someone who knows EXACTLY what I'm refering to.

OK, enough said.

-- a (b@c.def), January 18, 1999.


Well ab, if I knew your and humpty's vocabulary...It's one thing to know big words, but someone who makes new words out of big ones is not giving poor little me a chance ;-) (or maybe I should update my dictionary?) No matter, I deciphered that last one. And I agree with Humpty, we have enough to digest with Y2K right now.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), January 18, 1999.

So this thread ends, not with a bang, but a whimper...

-- Elbow Grease (Elbow_Grease@AutoShop.com), January 18, 1999.

kEwL, aa and ab and all. I'd like to sit Jack Sarfatti, James Lovelock, Deepak Chopra and Lisabet Sahtouris down on this thread. Talk about a blow-minding conversation; that would beat any drug I've ever tried.

In the mean time, you guys are doing great. Why should we confine our starsweeping intellects exclusively to this boring little glitch?

Hallyx

"Create no images of God. Accept the images that God has provided. They are everywhere, in everything. The universe is God's self-portrait."---Octavia E. Butler (Parable of the Sower)

-- Hallyx (Hallyx@aol.com), January 18, 1999.


Bad computer code does not care.

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), January 18, 1999.

hallyx: Sarfatt was just on Sightings radio Jan 5, if you're so inclined.

http://www.broadcast.com/shows/endoftheline/99archives.stm

Did I hear someone say "Immanentization of the Eschaton" ? Is it time for a Tim Leary thread???

-- a (a@a.a), January 18, 1999.


"There are forces in the universe, primary forces, that are sustained by the energy released when organic life ceases to "exist." For these forces, pain and death are food."

All kidding aside, it sounds like New York City to me.

MoVe Immediate (who just survived a visit to the in-laws in Alabama and registry error induced computer crash. Lost everything on the puter. Links will be graciously accepted.)

-- MVI (vtoc@aol.com), January 18, 1999.


NOW I remember where I've encountered this idea before. On an old episode of Star Trek. An entity that feeds on human pain, fear & death, invades the Enterprise & orchestrates a war between the Federation & the Klingons (or Romulans, or someone). They finally defeat it by laughing at it.

Well, it DID had a Gene Roddenberry sound to it. No gods out there, only nasty aliens that want to suck out your brain & feast on your fears. Good. Now I undestand this whole thread. I feel SO much better. Live long & prosper, guys.

-- Bones (not@aol.com), January 18, 1999.


This idea reminds me of a description of evil I read one time in the book "Lost Christianity" by Jacob Needleman.

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), January 18, 1999.

The original post here describes a simple and commonplace idea (entities feeding on the psychic pain of others). It is found not only in Lovecraft (most explicitly, though Lovecraft is always best when he only "hints"), but also in popular metaphysical writings, such as Yram, Robert Monroe, and of course Elsa Barker's Letters from a Living Dead Man . No big deal. We'll find out soon enough whether its true in any meaningful sense.

Leska wrote: *man's* aggressive latent bestiality, always simmering beneath the veneer of civility

Leska, you are such a cool person and poster, but WHY must you continue to cast aspersions on our 4-legged friends ? Only civilization produces a WWI, or WWII, or the killing fields of Cambodia. Animals don't DO that kind of stuff !!!

Four legs good, two legs bad !

-RC

-- Runway Cat (runway_cat@hotmail.com), January 18, 1999.


Animals would do "that kind of stuff" if they could. Monkeys commit infanticide & occassionally even eat each other's babies. Almost all forms of quadrupeds practice some form of infanticide. If they could manage guns, they would use them.

-- likes kitties (not@aol.com), January 19, 1999.

Does that mean that animals that practice infanticide go to hell then? Is there a dog heaven? I hope so, my dog has been such a loving, faithful friend...

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), January 19, 1999.

All dogs go to heaven. Not sure about cats.

-- likes kitties (not@aol.com), January 19, 1999.

Kitties, notice your example: Monkeys commit infanticide & occassionally even eat each other's babies You're reinforcing my point - Chimps share 98% DNA with homo saps.

As for animlas in general, the difference is, even though animals might occasionally lapse into human-like behavior, at least they don't go around constantly congratulating themselves on being so fantastically ethical, moral, "advanced", caring, and intelligent.

-- Runway Cat (runway_cat@hotmail.com), January 19, 1999.


Re Felines:

Cats don't even bother being self-congratulatory; that would be beneath them. They are absolutely convinced that all other forms of life are clearly inferior and in fact exist solely for cats' comfort and entertainment. At least, that has been my impression with every cat that's ever owned me. Students are referred to Paul Gallico's classic "The Silent Meow" for supporting evidence.

Re Heaven:

My wife takes great comfort in the passage in Revelation that describes Jesus returning and riding a white horse. "As long as they have horses in Heaven, I'll be all set!", quoth she. 8-}]

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.com), January 19, 1999.


Humans (myself included) never give up trying to "eff the ineffable."

I think it's a useful exercise. Not so much for zeroing in on the Absolute Truth, but for learning to think outside whatever cultural box one's in.

Here's a tentative approach, more discussed than practiced:

Do not be satisfied with hearsay or with tradition or with legendary lore or with what has come down in scriptures or with conjectures or with logical inference or with weighing evidence or with liking for a view after pondering over it or with someone else's ability or with the thought "The monk is our teacher." When you know in yourselves: "These things are wholesome, blameless, commended by the wise, and being adopted and put into effect they lead to welfare and happiness," then you should practice and abide in them....

Taken from Buddhism Without Beliefs, by Stephen Batchelor. He is quoting the Buddha (in translation from Kalama Sutra).

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), January 20, 1999.


Phil 4: 8,9

Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there is any virtue, and if there is any praise, think on these things.

Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of Peace shall be with you.

From The Bible.

-- Elbow Grease (Elbow_Grease@AutoShop.com), January 20, 1999.


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