Y2K: CRISIS OR BLESSING? by Michael Dowd I am convinced that the year 2000 computer problem, also known as Y2K, will be an enormous gift and a blessing to our world. While it is true that things could initially be difficult - for some, even VERY diffgreenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread |
Is it possible that Y2K isn't a cosmic mistake but a blessing in disguise?I'm convinced that Y2K will be an enormous gift and a blessing to our world. While it is true that things could initially be difficult - for some, even VERY difficult - let us remember that business-as-usual is rapidly destroying our childrens and grandchildrens chances of inheriting a clean, beautiful and humane world. Reflecting on the state of the world, an 80-year old farmer once told me, You know, if we dont turn around, well soon arrive where were headed. I believe that Y2K is a gift: a turn around point, and just in the nick of time.
As the year 2000 approaches, here are some things we can expect: More community building than weve seen since World War II. Churches, synagogues and schools becoming life centers in their communities. People taking greater responsibility for their lives. A questioning of our dependence on technology and our alienation from each other. A spiritual revival as people try to find meaning in an uncertain and potentially-chaotic future. Nations, citizens and neighbors learning to cooperate and work with each other as never before.
No matter how mild or severe the collective impact of year 2000 computer and embedded chip failures turns out to be (I personally expect the impact to be fairly serious), I believe that future generations will look back at our time and exclaim, Thank God for Y2K!
What are some other ways that Y2K may be a blessing in disguise?
[For those who care to know where I'm coming from, here's a short biographical sketch:
I'm an author, community organizer and co-founder of the Portland-Metro Citizen Y2K Task Force (Portland, OR). I'm also the campaign manager of the Portland Sustainable Lifestyle Campaign: a city funded program that builds community among neighbors by empowering them to support each other in living more environmentally responsible lifestyles. Before assuming these responsibilities, I served as a pastoral minister for ten years and worked with Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, and Evangelical leaders across the country as Religious Organizer for the Washington D.C. based National Environmental Trust. I have three children: 15, 13 and 8.]
-- Michael Dowd (MBDowd@bigplanet.com), January 15, 1999
Hi Michael! Nice to see you found our Forum ;-DHave you been reading the threads? If so, you may have noticed that you are a bit more optimistic than many regulars. If you get flamed, don't take it personally. Many of the posters here are computer programmers who have studied the issues for years. If you want to be a Light here, learn as much as you can from their viewpoints and don't let your enthusiasm be buffeted by the windy flames! BTW, they're not actually mean people, most of 'em, but they do have battle fatigue with the DWGIs (Don't Wanna Get Its), so they sometimes resort to blunt wake-up tactics. ;o
For all YourDoneEres, Ashton & I have met Michael this past week, and he is sincere, very active in the larger Portland region, and has a distinct glow of goodness emanating from him. He is able to attract and very respectfully reach out to a broad range of personality types coming to him for information. Although optimistically positive, Michael is NOT A TROLL.
And now, Michael, aren't you groggy this morning? Last night was toooooo late into the wee hours!
See you at our NET class ;-)
Ashton & Leska in Cascadia, laughing with glee at our growing community
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 15, 1999.
PS Ppssstt: Keep the Subject line of New Questions *short* ;-)
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 15, 1999.
er, Michael,while I certainly admire your zeal for incorporating y2k related issues in your evangelism outreach, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts concerning those folks around the world who will die due to lack of utility services next January. Then there are also the folks in this country and elsewhere who will experience serious economic repercussions due to failures of various businesses and governments to affect y2k remediation in time.
you know, I can't ever remember hearing anyone say "Thank God for the great depression!"...somehow I don't think that's what we're going to hear with regard to y2k either....
Arlin Adams
-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), January 15, 1999.
Michael -I agree that Y2K could be blessing. And particularly if it gets to the TEOTWAWKI level:
A reduction of a third - half of the human population would lower the stress level on our planetary/environmental systems.
Global chaos will lead to the end of the Nation-State and usher in the One World Government which will create an environment of global stability.
Massive starvation and death will create new opportunities for entreprenuers to clean up the mess.
Allowing the cities to starve and freeze will new "frontiers" for people to explore.
Massive militarization will virtually eliminate unemployment.
War on a large scale is always good for the economy.
I too believe that future generations will look back at our time and exclaim, Thank God for Y2K!
-- a (b@c.def), January 15, 1999.
Well, Arlin & abcdef, I sent Michael here to get a little more 'education' and also so he can present his viewpoint. He *is* sincere, just may not know as much as we do re systemic interconnectedness parasitic toast, etc.Hopefully Michael will respond to this and other threads on the Forum and grow in his Y2K understanding.
Michael has an obvious connection with a spiritual force, and therefore believes rightly that a community of God-attuned loving people can take action to withstand the ravages of Y2K.
Question: are there enough God-attuned ppl to stay "the rest of them?"
Even the spiritual of this country have become dependent on the material ease of the webbed machine ...
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 15, 1999.
a, is it my imagination or are you getting to be downright optimistic these days?
-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), January 15, 1999.
Mike: your cup is definitely half full...your brain I'm not so sure about..
-- a (a@a.a), January 15, 1999.
Hey, lookee, it seems like Mr. Thank God For Y2K has managed on his very first post to overflow a buffer or something so that his idiotic title now gets printed in bold on everones post. What a prize.
-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), January 15, 1999.
Scene: The professor's arm's are being held by friends beside him while several voices in the crowd exhort "Don't go out there professor; they'll kill you! --------------------The saucer, which until now, has sat silently hums and rotates a half circle as if anticipating the earthling's next move................................. With a twisting motion, the professor brakes free, runs foward, raises his hands while calling out,"Don't be afraid! We want to be your friends! But in one agonizing instant his last word is cut short by a horrible sound and blinding flash.
-- Type R (Sortapreparing@polly.anna), January 15, 1999.
Adversity builds character. People who are crushed powerfully are compelled to react vitally (or perish). But it's not pretty, and I don't expect there to be much celebration until after people are able to look back on it.I don't look forward to "churches and synagogs" becoming the new centers of the community. I see a real, political danger in those who seek to enforce "God's dominion" over America. Most believers are well-intentioned, and churches, and religiously inspired individuals, can do great charitable works. But -especially in times of catastrophe- we hear a lot about a given misfortune being "God's punishment on us" for being evil: i.e., not being christian, harboring wicked people in our midst (like unbelievers, gays, unwed mothers).
The last witch was ritually burned alive in North America a little more than a hundred years ago. For hundreds of years, in Europe, it was illegal not to be christian, and torture of unbelievers and heretics was routine. When we talk about the churches becoming the centers of the community, I think of that event in this context. A lot of the "take back America" rhetoric makes me think that churches may bring as much conflict, post-Y2k, as they will a sense of community.
E.
-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), January 15, 1999.
Dang, E, now you are starting to sound optimistic! Whats with you guys??!!!
-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), January 15, 1999.
Jack, it's all the Y2K drinking we've been doing. All those little "fight or flight" synapses are finally fried beyond recognition.
-- lisa (lisab@shallc.com), January 15, 1999.
I agree Michael, this can be a blessing indisguise, if we use it as an opportunity for positive change. It all depends on how we Perceive, Prepare, and React. If everyone were to perceive this situation with a collective conciousness, prepare and react to it from that perspective, this predicament could become a transition period into spiritual enlightenment, and the salvation of all of mankind. But as you can see from this forum, many people prefer to live in fear, take a negative attitude, and be more concerned about themselves than the rest of humanity. How can we change the collective consciousness? This is what we should be thinking about.I also agree with what "a" said, except for the part about war. I don't see any reason why the Y2K situation should result in war. That is not progressive, but regressive.
-- (@@@.@), January 15, 1999.
As a Witch (Wiccan), I have to agree with E. Coli.Annie O'Dea
-- Annie O'Dea (tarotmaid@yahoo.com), January 15, 1999.
@: that's nice. But the thing is, if it were possible to turn the collective consiousness on a dime, we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.Hell, we can't even convince the trolls that there's even a problem.
-- a (a@a.a), January 15, 1999.
I agree with Annie, a witch, and E. coli, "a more clean, beautiful, humane world" appeals to me. But if the center of community is the churches, I'm heading for the woods and staying there.
-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), January 15, 1999.
Thank you a.
-- Type r (Sortapreparin@polly.anna), January 15, 1999.
. . .Takes me back to the movie, "ZARDOZ", starring Sean Connery, which first appeared about 1970. Sean, as Zed (the protagonist) makes his appearance in a "perfect" future world where people cannot die. One of the world's "resourseful" inhabitants had "imported" him there for the express purpose of killing all the inhabitants there who were bored with eternal corporeal life. One particular inhabitant, a seeress, asked aloud of the community this: "How has this monster appeared within our midst? And why did we conjure him to be here? These are the questions upon which we must meditate."
-- Albert E. Potts (Potts5116@aol.com), January 15, 1999.
I'm not a witch or wiccan, and I have no power on anyone but myself, and I agree with E. I'm an atheist, yet I'm viewed as worse than a witch by many, because I hold no mystical faith of any sort.It is suicidal in this country to admit that one is an atheist. Why do I do it here? I don't outside this internet forum. Perhaps it's because the people here in general are more open-minded and intelligent. And because it's a heavy burden to carry this secret around.
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), January 15, 1999.
Leska - thanks! My intent was to suggest that he might want to tone down the ooh-rah rhetoric a bit. It's been my experience that more is accomplished in this forum by life-based witnessing than by recruiting spieles.Arlin
-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), January 15, 1999.
To all witches, atheists, cannibals, mystics, mythics, etc, whatever assorted combos out there: To feel a great sense of comradery and Y2K heightening, read Anne Rice novels. Then eMail me to join a fun, witty, intelligent, all-accepting, interesting ListServ. I'm a fanatic "religious" devotee zealot myself, but watch the rest of it with pleasure because I know if one is *thinking* about and questioning the existence of God, one is closer to coming in contact with Him/Her.Arlin, I don't know Michael at all, just met him twice, and he seemed sincere. I never suspected he would "spiel" then scoot, not to answer our posts! Oh well, live and learn. My greatest fault is a faith in ppl and trying to help/include them. Please accept my apologies. Sometimes ppl hear about Y2K, without knowing the facts, and get a romantic idea of going back to the good old days. Better ways to do that than Y2K!
Leska, embarrassed, but it was worth a try
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 15, 1999.
" know if one is *thinking* about and questioning the existence of God, one is closer to coming in contact with Him/Her."To me that is true Leska, because I interpret "Him/Her" as the "good". And since I question everything for the purpose to enrich my "soul", the more I question, the closer I get to "Him/Her".
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), January 15, 1999.
See there, Chris, ya ain't a hard-core atheist, 'cause ya know ya are the "soul," and ya know there's "good" close-by and accessible.
You're questioning/feeling "outside the box." God is not in the box, no matter how much man hems and haws That in fake boundaries.
{I'd better shut up now ;}xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 16, 1999.
Leska -no need to appologize! You aren't responsible for this, 'Michael' is...
Chris - I do believe that what you are is anti-theistic (that is uncomfortable with religion and therefore avoiding it) and not atheistic (believing that there is no Supreme Being)...or am I splitting hairs?
Arlin
-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), January 16, 1999.
Michael,The YourDoneFor groups a tad more cynical this week, due to troll and Y2K overload.
USUALLY THEY ARE NICER ESPECIALLY WHEN A REGULAR POSTER OFFERS A REFERENCE TO A NEWCOMER!!!
That said, welcome.
Im an optimist, and a realist too. (Some will shudder). Rather than refer to Y2K as a Blessing In Disguise, perhaps a more realistic phrase would be Y2K Is An Opportunity, In Our Face, Or Not.
It depends on all the choices we make. Unfortunately, it seems that our unwise leaders in Washington D.C. are still focused on hot pants politics, rather than the increasing heat developing in the global Y2K frying pan. Once again, disinformation, appears to be the rule of law for handling difficult challenges. Thats partly why were kinda bummed right now. The theyll SAVE us mentality, is alive and well and as misguided as ever, on both sides of the We the People and We the Federal fence. *Big Sigh* Especially when they know direct impact is always localized.
We are all walking the Y2K yin-yang tightrope without a safety net. And, as you say we have the obvious choices, opportunities really, to develop:
More community building than weve seen since World War II
Churches, synagogues and schools becoming life centers in their communities
People taking greater responsibility for their lives
A questioning of our dependence on technology and our alienation from each other
A spiritual revival as people try to find meaning in an uncertain and potentially-chaotic future
Nations, citizens and neighbors learning to cooperate and work with each other as never before.
Conversely, we also have the choice for covert agendas and other forms of back-room policies which could also result in creating:
More isolationist and fear building tactics than weve seen since World War II
Churches, synagogues and schools becoming targeted hit-list centers by Government and Military salvationists for daring to try creating communities rather than getting with the emergency response and disaster relief what-is-good-for-us-is-good-for-you government sponsored contingency plans and spin-programs
People encouraged to give up responsibility for their lives
An inability to question our dependence on technology and our alienation from each other because it is not in the best interests of big business and bigger brothers
A spiritual suppression, the likes of which has been experienced historically before, as people are discouraged in trying to find meaning in an uncertain and potentially-chaotic future (think Inquisition)
Nations, citizens and neighbors prodded to distrust and ridicule and work to tear down each other as never before.
Sorta cosmic, huh?
Now, if most of us could learn and choose to help, rather than hinder, to empower rather than disempower, that would be a Y2K lesson in tolerance and honoring the individual and collective creativity, well worth learning.
Time, and 2000 will tell.
(But not the hear no evil, see no evil, be no evil types in high ivory tower, ossified governing places).
Diane *Sigh*
(Leska, give him and yourself a little slack. Maybe hell return. Not everyone is glued to the internet)
-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), January 16, 1999.
Diane, such a post, from you! We're all woozily clambering back on our computer seats, after being knocked thru the stone-hoop by the "different-for-you" exposition above.Yep, my first impression of Michael is being redeemed; he's eMailed me, and wants me to call him. Aaaaaggghhh, don't wanna disconnect. But will. "Cut off thy mouse ... "
Your "more realistic phrase would be Y2K Is An Opportunity, In Our Face, Or Not. got me thinking along RC lines:
R{Milne} = "Up Your A**"
R{Leska} = "On Your Deathbed"
R{Ashton } = "In Your Meditation Asana"
R{Koskinen} = "Fortified In My Exclusive Bunker"
etc. ;-)xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 16, 1999.
Leska,It's a "bad hair" day. Still really annoyed at the .gov and .mil types. Some of their rally-the-troops speeches, really get to me.
Gotta get offline, and re-balance, a tad. Just posted on a different thread a response to S.O.B.
Just a case of being "trolled" out.
Fortunately, it's natural and soothing outside.
Diane
-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), January 16, 1999.
That's OK, Diane ;-) I can just see you with your hair standing on end like a bristling porcupine as your scroll box scratches past a troll boll. Ignition! Has Invar responded to you yet? He has an effective anti-troll knack. I think next week's change will be most invigoratingly refreshing. Enjoy your walk in the fresh air :)xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 16, 1999.
Everyone,Thank you for your responses! (Diane, thank you especially for your generousity.)
Wow, what an education! I've never been on an Internet bulletin board before yesterday. After I posted my thread (new word for me), I turned off my computer and went to work. I only got back on-line this morning. I didn't know that the whole point of this way of communicating was to have an on-line dialog. Sorry!!
I wish I had time to respond to all the responses to my thread. Unfortunately, I have a VERY full day (we're in the process of moving our office and I have about a month's worth of work to do in the next two weeks.)
Yes, I acknowlegde that there will probably be tremendous suffering and disruption around the world due to Y2K. This fact has brought me to tears (and in and out of depression) on more than one occasion.
As reagards paganism, when I pastored my first church in western Massachusetts (10 years ago), I had a medicine wheel in my back yard and a sweat lodge built on one of my parishioners land. Indeed, one of the reasons that I'm no longer pastoring is that my denominational superiors felt that I was too liberal - especially with regards to my embracing Earth spirituality. (My book, Earthspirit, was published in 1991 and is in its thrid printing. Essentially, I am a popularizer of the work of Thomas Berry, Brian Swimme, Joanna Macy and John Seed: I tell the 15 billion year story of the universe as a sacred story.)
Perhaps I AM just a tad naively optimistic. I'll admit that possibility. I prefer to think of myself as having a deep and passionate trust in the Universe and in the mysterious unfolding of Time (you could also call this faith in God/Goddess/The Source of All Things, etc.)
One other thing you all should know is that I am a slow typist. Therefore, for dialogs, I prefer the telephone. As I said, this has been a valuable learning lesson for me. Thanks for your patience, and your coaching. And thank you all, again, for your responses. The've made a REAL difference.
I will not be able to get back on line for another day or two. However, I can be reached at (503) 249-7513. Please feel free to call.
Ecozoic blessings! Michael
-- Michael Dowd (MBDowd@bigplanet.com), January 16, 1999.
Telephones are marvelous but are expensive long-distance luxuries for many posters, who may live in Japan, England, Australia, Arizona, Virginia, etc. Posting is fast and relatively inexpensive, and here responses are shared for the edification of the many.
Michael came back to explain and got rid the question lines too.xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 16, 1999.
How *do* some posters get rid of those obnoxious bolded question lines?
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 16, 1999.
Yes, there are people I know online who I'd love to talk to by voice, but since I live in Australia, the phone charges can be a major nuisance.By the way, if anyone does want to call me, my number (this is also my modem number, so if you get a busy signal I'm probably online), is 061 02 9953 2011. 061 being the Australian country-code, 02 being the Sydney area code.
--Leo
-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), January 16, 1999.
Hi Leo, was thinking about you! I can't even talk on the phone anymore! I'm too impatient to be back here or surfing, and I just stutter like an imbecile on the phone. Besides, I like a print record of the conversation so I can go back and think about different points.Leo, since this is a community-rallying kinda thread, I gotta question for you:
If all us YourDynamites were rounded up by the lurking CIA, FBI, FEMA, etc. and put together on a remote locale for 3 years, do you think we'd fare better than society at large?I do. :) We have a fabulous array of skill-sets collectively on here. But could we all get along? *heehee* This is a fun one to contemplate.
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 16, 1999.
I'd say we would, easily. I don't think there's a lot of people here who believe that society -or anyone, other than themselves- owes them a living. I think we'd have everyone producing, and new ideas coming out to succeed, and better culture (whatever that word means)..Of course, we'd need a defense force. Or at least someone with a rifle in case of, "Hey, Jimmy..so they put you here too?" "Shut up, doomsayer, and gimme some doughnuts." "Don't have any of those, but here's a couple of rounds.."
No, I believe that we as a group would do far better. Even without skills- they can be taught, after all, to people with the right attitude (ie that of an achiever). That's why I also think we'd get along. Yes, the lefties (Hallyx?) would complain, but they can always find others of their kind -there's probably one or two lurkers- and start a commune, if they want to. As long as we kept government and taxes to a minimum, there probably wouldn't be much need for conflict.
Hell, I can see us expanding out BEFORE the three years is up, after we've built ships and aircraft to export all that we're making. I could see people thinking "Hey..Yourdon Land is somewhere where I can work hard and make good money, and there's lots of employment there.." and moving there of their own accord, simply to get away from the CIA and the FBI and the ABCDEFG.
Incidentally, if anyone seriously plans to do this, consider the central Australian desert. Last night I came up with the skeleton of a plan to colonise that area; if I had the money, and if I could get rid of the government (Aboriginal special-interest groups who claim 95% of the country), I could make that land, the "Red Centre", some of the most productive on Earth.
--Leo
-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), January 16, 1999.
Hey, Leo, I'm liking this scene -- revenge on the Alphabet Orgres thru success by building a better society. EXCEPT I love Hallyx, who writes so majestically and poetically, and doesn't complain! I'd want Hallyx to have a place of honor in the hut next to me -- eventually the palace next to my plantation ;-)Isn't Australia the land of the Exiles Who Made Good? And would you want to spar with me because I deeply feel the original natives own their land more than we or any land-grabbing conquistadors? Aacckkkies, what happens when we get to know each other better! ;-D
And yes, we probably would be building ships and aircrafts, and with the Yourdynamites, space ships too. Yourdon Land can satisfy its colonization drives in outer space and middle earth. Ah, now I have something to daydream about :) Thanks, Leo
BTW, we'll harness the trolls for slave labor -- I'm not too far a leftie ;^]
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 16, 1999.
Yes, I like Hallyx too..but nobody's got a right to demand anything off anyone, unless they provide something of equal value in return ;)Exiles who made good? Allow me to correct you on that. Slightly over two thirds of the people on the First Fleet (the eleven ships that landed at Sydney Harbour on 26/1/1788) were convicts. Most of the rest were settlers and British sailors. The place was established as a British colony. A Second Fleet, almost entirely of convicts, came a few years later. When convicts were freed (after 7/14/21 year sentences), they could either go back to the British slums or get land grants to start their own farms. Most -almost all- chose to start farms. They were given, as anyone who had a farm was given, convict workers; the cons had to do something, after all. But the country remained under British control -still does, technically.
As for the Aborigines; I'd be happy to let them have their land back. IF they eschewed all Western medical aid. All Western technology altogether, including clothes and alcohol. I don't think that the majority of our petty-criminal, welfare-grubbing, booze-swilling Aborigines would like to go back to eating grubs and dying at age thirty.
Land changes. Babylon was taken over by Persia; Persia was taken over by Greece; Greece was taken over by Rome, which was in turn taken over by the Holy Roman Empire and then the Turks. What happened 211 years ago was in the PAST. It was a LONG time ago. Nobody's going to remove every trace of white settlement, and the Aborigines are never going to turn back the clock to go back to eating grubs and dying at 30.
The Aborigines should now accept that THEY have no right to the land our distant ancestors took off their distant ancestors. If they want to have it, they should get jobs and earn money and buy it. As far as I'm concerned, the land claims are an attempt to alter history, and that simply cannot be done.
Yes, you're daydreaming about it. I'm working on a means to accomplish it ;)
--Leo
-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), January 16, 1999.
Zouch, Leo, you got testy! Is Hallyx a boozing aborigine? I missed something somewhere ;)
Times change, and injustices should be righted.
Y2K will call into question "progress."
Not that I don't love all the easy fun conveniences.By Exiles I meant the Evicted, the Convicts, who made good settling Australia. Hhmm, dictionary says: "exile: enforced removal from one's native country by decree; banishment. One who has been separated from his country."
Read somewhere that Australians are proud of their unique pioneering history. I must have read wrong; sorry to offend you.
Yes, I'm happily daydreaming about a Yourdynamite community, but I'm also doing very concrete things to bring one together. Hard-core progress is evident, just not on the Forum yet. But you'll be surprised :^]
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 16, 1999.
No, I wasn't testy. Sorry if you misinterpreted my tone that way. Just I was in the City last night, and some Aboriginal fucker passed by and made a disgusting comment at my girlfriend. There were twenty or so of the scumbags in a bottle-waving group, so there wasn't a lot I could do about it (well, I'd say I could have done something had I been on my own..but she strongly urged me not to). My tax dollars are paying for those greasy vermin to go around drinking and making rude comments at achievers.What it comes down to, Leska, is that the Aborigines are trying to take back by force, land that has been bought and traded honestly for several years now. They are trying to say "take this land off the current owners without compensation, and give it to us for nothing; so what if it's been bought legally half a dozen times and the owner has his life savings tied up in it." I disagree with that. I disagree completely with the welfare-state mentality that allows those drunken scum to leech millions of dollars a year (twenty times twenty-two thousand is almost a million, and that's just the ONE group we saw stumbling along George Street) from honest, hard-working achievers.
I'm not a racist. Don't have ANYTHING against Aborigines in general, just the 90% that are bums. I'd have the same disgust for a bunch of drunken welfare-scum who came by and insulted me.
--Leo
-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), January 17, 1999.
Zowie, Leo, it gets worse! Sorry you had a bad experience; didn't know it was so bad. Glad your girlfriend stopped you from getting in a brawl. You need your fingers unswollen and pliant to type your biz proposals![This is a *minister's* thread so we might want to watch our French]
I'm glad you're both OK. Too bad there weren't Let's All Hear Each Other's Stories workshops this year. If such incendiary at-the-brink feelings are broiling now, what will a year from now look like? That's exactly why I want off the planet!xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 17, 1999.
Hey, I don't go around making trouble. But when some acne-faced scumbag remarks, "hey, you wanna give me a blow job, bitch?" and his friend adds, "yeah, fuck that asshole you're with, honey, come fuck me instead", I have a moral obligation to get up and fling the guy into the path of the nearest truck. Or, failing that, to at least knock him flat.Don't worry about me, incidentally. Never been in a gunfight and I really don't like violence, but "really don't like" is different to "can't handle". It would have been a pleasure to show those vermin what a guy who presses 70 (kilos, not pounds) and runs 5km daily, can do when he's mad.
This planet is moving too fast for you to be able to get off at this moment.. but never mind. There are always good, productive people around to keep the vermin at bay. We've got better things to do than start fights -constructive things are better- but if I'm forced to, I finish them quite effectively. (Hmm, I really need to get some firearms training before 1/1/00.)
--Leo
-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), January 17, 1999.
I agree with Christians (like GN)that TEOTWAWKI is highly possible. But if they think they are going to create theocratic christian states of out the mess, they're going to have to do it over my dead body, and I hope I get a bunch of them first.
-- Lucifer (lucifer@non-believer.com), January 17, 1999.
Lucifer: my feelings exactly. And the same in regard to communism, socialism, and NWO-ism. (Hey, did I just create a new word there?)--Leo
-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), January 17, 1999.
Lefty, Leo? Righty? Inny? Outty? What's in a name? Socialist, Communist, Capitalist---I'm really getting bored with these old-think labels. It's too easy to ascribe attitudes and motivations to others based on one's own interpretation of terminology. When that happens, communication falters. And communication, in my opinion, is the salient issue in thinking.Most of the "-ists" and "-isms" currently extant describe features of social organisations that demonstrably have proven to be failures. How can this be? There are six-billion of us living better than the aboriginal peoples of 20,000 years ago, with life-expectancy and lifestyle superior to any that have gone before. Many people who have not examined modern anthropological findings and sociological research are unaware of the fallacy of this opinion. I have neither the time nor the patience to disabuse anyone of their ignorance. Read Richard Leaky and Steven J. Gould and follow their links.
My sole criterium for the efficacy of a social, economic or even ethical construct is simply this: sustainability. Any praxis, arrangement, system, morality or belief which cannot be practiced continually, "even unto the seventh generation," is doomed to fail. Any conduct or behavior which dimishes the well-being of our children's children's children is immoral. And I don't care how many "holy books" may teach otherwise.
I, too, was much taken with Ayn Rand's screed when I was eighteen years-old. But, as I matured and accepted responsibility for the welfare of others beside myself, I became aware that the prowess of the individual must, at times, be subjugated to the well-being of the group (family, clan, tribe, society) by whatever name it is known. This attitude is the primary reason humans have flourished in this Earth for thousands of millennia.
In many, if not most, original cultures, the worth of a man or woman was esteemed not by what he could get for himself but by what he could give to others. The man of high prestige was one who could provide for the safety and comfort of his group. The self-aggrandizing individual was scorned and derided.
All the "-isms" that the labelists bandy about so casually are rather recent apparitions on the face of the planet and, in this comparatively short time, have already become archaic and obsolescent. They had better be. If not, it is 'we' who will become obsolete.
Hallyx
"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well if a promontory were, as well if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee."---John Donne (Meditation XVII)
-- Hallyx (Hallyx@aol.com), January 17, 1999.
HallyxWe must remember to cut Leo just a little slack now and then, as he is still a young pup, and full of piss and vinegar.
Time will temper his bombast.
-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 17, 1999.
Good to find a worthwhile thread still here, good to find Hallyx with the excellent quotations, old and new Yourdon friends still here, (Hiya Unc!),...My family and I continue to plan for the blessing/paradigm shift that comes with Y2K. Planning for simpler, and saner lives now, doing now what we want in the "future".
Now.
-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), January 17, 1999.
Uncle Deedah & Donna! What a pleasure!
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 17, 1999.
Leo: Ditto
-- Lucifer (lucifer@non-believer.com), January 17, 1999.
Leo has the right attitude for an 18 year old. He can't yet think like a 30+ year old, as his brain hasn't finished its formation (happens around 30, when the frontal lobes "harden") I'm confident that he will re-read Ayn Rand at that time, and rethink his views with his new abilities.Leo, about the aborigines, look at it from their uneducated, poor people perspective; the white men are the looters who took their land. They want it back for free because it was theirs in the first place. That to me explain their behaviors. Because I understand that does not mean that I'd take their scummy jabs without a retort ;-) (North Americans are just as much "looters", and although we don't have as much problems with native-american indians as the Aussies do with aborigines, the problem is the same.)
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), January 17, 1999.
Leo, here's one for you."I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from them. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves."
-John Wayne
There you go bud, all's fair in love and all that.
-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 17, 1999.
So we selfishly took it away from them. All's fair in love and war. We could go 'round and 'round. Blah blah blah. So take what you need, leave some crumbs and stay out of their paths ;-)
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), January 17, 1999.
WE didn't take the land away from THEM. The distant ancestors of some of us (the First Fleet numbered about 1200 people; Australia presently has 18,000,000) took it away from their distant ancestors. If it had been US who took it away from THEM, then I would of course support the return. But it wasn't. It happened two hundred years ago, and you can't remedy history.As for being selfish: I desire to produce. I desire to make. If I start a factory making widgets that employs 100 people, I will create 100 jobs and improve the lives of 100 people. I will also lower the overall price of widgets (to be competitive), or give widget buyers further choice in what model to buy. I will also make whatever profits I can. The other extremely desirable side-effects, employment and production, are both means to an end of my making profits. But they nontheless exist and if I wasn't selfish, then those things wouldn't be happening. That's why I consider myself morally fine.
Hallyx, good point as usual. Labelling doesn't work effectively.
-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), January 17, 1999.
Leo, a higher challenge is learning to "share" and honor all perspectives and preferences.Michael,
Just wanted to say it was great meeting you at the FEMA NET training and breakfast the next day after your Y2K radio interview (gathering included Leska, Ashton and Melinda).
Im now back in CA, group, and in Y2K preparation video overload (and heaven). Thanks to Michaels Y2K readiness collection, I now have nine videos to watch and assess this weekend, in addition to the wealth of books and handouts he had available! Hes a great resource for the Portland area and beyond Y2K groups!
Thank you again, hugs and see ya Michael!
Diane
-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), January 22, 1999.
Yes, Michael, thank you for going thru the effort of compiling so many tangible resources for people to study and work through at home. You are doing valuable and so-right community activities! And you have a super ham acting talent in there too! ;-) Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to share so much with us. See ya soon, hope we get another class chance to see your "D" + "W" antics LOL :-DAshton & Leska in Cascadia, still giggling
xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 22, 1999.
Y2K Bug Could Be A Disaster That Builds Community Feeling
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 22, 1999.
G rassroots Y2K Efforts Sprout
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 22, 1999.