Am I crazy to try this in a big city?? (Toronto)

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I live on the outskirts of a major Canadian city (Toronto) and I wonder if I am crazy to try and stick it out here when the trouble hits. I live near the top of a tall apartment building (about 30th floor) which I think will discourage most looters, and am far enough away from the downtown core so am not worried about gangs and such, they'll freeze in the winter before they find me.

Assuming I can pack in enough food and water, my real concern is heat. I can't store major amounts of fuel in the apartment but will only need to keep a small area warm. I have an eastern exposure with sunlight only part of the day (though in winter it can be weeks before you see the sun) so solar power isn't viable. I'm investigating wind power, since it is usually windy this high up. And for the balcony I'll probably get a small generator with enough power to run small appliances when I need them... .

So, am I crazy to try this or should I find a nice warm island somewhere where they've never heard of computers? Anyone else going to try anything like this? I know I'm late finalizing my plans, but better late than never.

Oz.

-- Oz (daveo@home.com), January 03, 1999

Answers

Hmmm. It really comes down to just how bad you believe this situation in your specific area could become. In the minor, sporadic disruptions scenario (a '1' or a '2'), you would probably stand a good chance.

But should you suffer a loss of power or water or heat for a prolonged length of time in the winter...

Consider sanitation - how will you handle it? My guess would be that in any serious scenario, the building will be ordered evacuated - if not by the owners, then by the local authorities. Don't know how Canada works but in most places in the US, an apartment building with no sanitary service is not considered habitable. (same goes for water, electricity and heating)

Consider fire safety - even if you are super careful, how long before one of your hundreds of neighbors accidently starts a fire? My guess is that the owners of the building would order it evacuated rather than take that kind of risk.

Forget about 'road warrior' (looters and such). I'm not saying that riots are not a concern - they well could be. But in Canada in the middle of winter, I'd say lack of heat (or too much heat in the case of a fire in the building) would present a much larger and more immediate threat to your life than any looters.

No, I don't think I'd try to 'stick it out' on the 30th floor of a high-rise apartment building if I thought my area stood a moderate risk of prolonged disruptions.

My own personal approach has been to try to have as much direct control as possible over as many of the basics as possible (location, water, food, heat, shelter and security). And to build in a little redundancy (if plan A fails then on to plan B and so forth for each of the basic necessities).

As I noted above, threats to security come from a lot of places other than road warrior. (Frostbite is just not very condusive to rioting - it expends a tremendous amount of precious calories in a hurry.) In your case, food and water may be all you need if you're willing to bet that disruptions will be minor. But remember that what you're betting here is your life and that, in such cases, erring on the side of caution is the prudent thing to do. I'd rather be 'too prepared' than 'not prepared enough'.

You will have to evaluate what you perceive to be the risk in your own locality and act accordingly. But if you really believe disruptions in your area stand a chance of being moderate to severe, then yes, you may be crazy to try to stay where you are. Maybe you have a friend with a woodstove in a more rural setting?

Consider fi

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie_Rimmer@usa.net), January 03, 1999.


Sorry, that "Consider fi" at the end of my response was a typo - not some cryptic suggestion.

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie_Rimmer@usa.net), January 03, 1999.

Oz, did you know that there is a book out that is called "uninhabited desert islands"? :)

-- Damian Solorzano (oggy1@webtv.net), January 03, 1999.

Oz, I would be worried about fires, especially living at the top of a high rise. As I think Leo said before on another thread, don't worry too much about looters, they will be absolutely shagged by the time they've climbed 30 flights of stairs. Plus you can dump your sanitation-filled buckets on them when they get to the 25th on up. Of course the sanitation will not leave the buckets because it will be frozen solid so the filled bucket in and of itself will make a formidable and cheap weapon.

Ever see the movie "Mutiny On the Bounty" - the remake with Mel Gibson too was pretty good , that Island paradise never quite worked out but I'm sure the Jack Tars had fun while it lasted. Shame about the Islanders though... Also "Animal Farm", "The Island Of Dr. Moreau", "Gilligans Island" etc. Not the way to go...

On the other hand Toronto in mid winter, Hmmmm...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 03, 1999.


Oz, we too are staying in the city -- because my partner is an Episcopal priest and rector of a church here. We live in a large house that is physically connected to the church (has its drawbacks, believe me) and we are part of a community that is very defensive of it's church and church property. We'll have food, water, a heat source, and most importantly, good strong community. We also have two alternative places to go should we need to. But we firmly believe in the tight-knit community here and feel a responsibility to the members of the congregation.

Good luck in Toronto. Establish community. Have an alternative plan. I think I'd worry most about the isolation of living on the 30th floor of an apartment building. And just how much space do you have to stock food and water? Don't forget, water weighs a lot. Wouldn't want to see your water crash down onto the 29th floor!

-- Libby Alexander (libbyalexander@aol.com), January 03, 1999.



Move or have a backup place to go to. More than likely looters will hit the bottom floors and who knows what they will do once inside. Also, everyone will be in the same boat. Burning candles for light and possibly Kerosun heaters to stay warm. All it takes is one candle to set off a major fire, that would be my first concern. One good thing about living up 30 stories, it would take a while for the sewer to back up, but then you have the problem of storing water and getting to more water once you have run out. Are you allowed to have water beds in your apartment? That could be another source of water storage for you. Good luck.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), January 03, 1999.

YES-YES-YES you are crazy the smell of food - light or movement will give you away. You will not be able to block the stairs people will find you the sound of the generator at night will be loud who else will be in the building they will not stop till they get you if you have to come down who will be in the bottom floors to attack you. Do not bet your life people will be weak you say most looters what about the rest that wont quit until they eat your food? When people are cold and hungry they will take a chance. If you keep them back they will burn you out a fire that someone starts to keep warm will burn the building down with you in it. Never be in a place where you have no escape one way in and one way out means you will not make it.

-- Bubba (Badhabbit@water.com), January 03, 1999.

No chance for survival in a 30 storey hirise especially in the megalopolis region of the golden horseshoe. If the weather next year is like you are experiencing now, forget it. Water pipes could freeze. I don't know what your finances are, but maybe you can find alternative housing. If you are outside To now, there are small towns or acreages you can rent or buy that have a well & septic. IMHO you cannot go into this thing, half-assed. What about relatives? Do you have anyone in the country that you could go to? I wish you luck, but the burbs of Toronto would be one of the last places I would want to be.

-- Rick Reilly (rreilly@home.com), January 03, 1999.

The short sanswer is yes - thats crazy if you believe the situation will be a scenario 3 or greater. If nothing else buy some camping gear and locate a place to go in the country. Surely you have some relative outside the city. Your top floor situation is a death trap if the power goes down for more than 48 hours.

-- RD. ->H (drherr@erols.com), January 03, 1999.

I would not be as concerned if you were in a two-flat...a highrise...find a place to bug out to....My bug out place is where I will go if the smoke signals look bad by midddle of October,...I'm hoping I can stay in my small home in a medium sized suburb. Needless to say, I'm as nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs, and pestering the city council regularly about city wide education and preparedness.

Roll the dice. Draw a card. Keep preparing.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), January 03, 1999.



You may live or die by the decisions you make now. Everybody comes to forks in the road that force them to choose. You are at one now. Doing nothing is a choice.

-- Ann Fisher (zyax55b@prodigy.com), January 03, 1999.

Yes. Head South. Make new friends. Check out: http://www.ic.org/

-- Berry (Berry Picking@yahoo.com), January 03, 1999.

Here's a wild and crazy idea that I think might just work:

On New Year's Eve, some people and I went up into an old, abandoned industrial building to watch the fireworks. I hadn't thought of it before, but this type of building could be the ideal place in which to experience y2k. Here's why:

  • Abandoned. What sensible plunderers would waste their time trying to get into an abandoned building? If you want rusty metal, you can find many, many better places.

  • Space. These places have a LOT of space in which to store your stuff. Just bring it in before y2k, storing it in packing crates or something to make it look like it belongs there (in the VERY unlikely event that a security guy or a vandal will be in the building and notice it; unlikely, if you put it out of the way). Basically, there is so much space that you could run big laps or play tag or whatever. There is NO shortage of room.

  • Roof Area. These places have big roofs, ideal for sunbaking or bringing up dirt in which to grow food. If you keep everything a couple of metres from the edge of the roof, few people will notice you.

  • View. The place that I'm thinking of (obviously this is in Sydney, but it's a common type of building) has a spectacular view of the city. It's an ideal vantage point for watching the breakdown of society!

  • Access. There's probably better ways to get in, but the way we entered was through the only open door in the place -which involved going along a drain, down a dirt pathway, up some stairs, down some other stairs, along a short catwalk and in. Then, up stairs, up some more stairs, up about thirty flights of goddamn stairs. There was a lift shaft running parallel, and the stairs were made of iron grille -meaning that you could remove a few of them, if you had a hacksaw and wanted to. Or a few flights of them, if you were determined. Or you could simply loosen the individual grilles a little, so that any unauthorised guests would take a nasty, NASTY fall. You could also put alarms there.

    And the place is big enough that even if intruders did get in and started looking for victims, they still probably would not find you if you were off the main area (in a quiet corner of one of the wings, say.) I went exploring, for about an hour. I had a torch (in a y2k situation, torch batteries might not be available) and a cellphone so that if I got lost, I wouldn't be in massive trouble. I think I would have covered less than a hundredth of the place. I was deterred from going into some areas by signs that said "Danger; proceed with caution beyond this point" or "Danger: do NOT proceed beyond this point". As far as I was concerned, those signs meant something. As far as a looter is concerned, they could also mean something. Why risk falling through a loose floor or something, when you've been warned? (Remember, there's no medical care in this situation. If you break a leg, you're screwed.) And what's stopping you, the y2k-squatter, from putting your OWN signs up saying "Danger" to deter looters from entering your general vicinity. And even if looters do get in, they'd be exploring on their own if they wanted to find anything. Ten individuals on their own, with no knowledge of the place, looking in the hope of finding something they're not sure even exists, against four people with a comprehensive knowledge of the area, armed with knives? It'd be their worst nightmare.

    If I find myself in November without any better bug-out plan, that is exactly what I am going to do.

    --Leo

    -- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), January 03, 1999.


  • If I were going to stay in your situation, it would be with some co- operation with the building supt. Can you access the roof. Thirty floors up, you must be pretty well there already. Tell him you want to raise carrier pigeons or sunbath or use your telescope or something you would know better. Would you be able to use a room up on the roof to store stuff (pigeons, chase, telescope)? Maybe you could get the supt. in on it and together you can bring up dirt for growing vegs, water, food and kero. All kept on the roof. You gotta trust that guy pretty good eh?

    On the other hand, pick on a lake like Sturgeon near Lindsay where there are summer cottages. Why not rent one for December and January to "vacation" in. You want to go ice fishing or ski or just do something different. These kinds of excuses will probably start getting pretty obvious later in the year so do it soon. Find a cottage where the owners aren't likely to show up themselves and evict you and make sure you have the option of staying longer if you want. You'll have lots of water and you'll be away from the city. Come to think of it, you might find me there.

    Me

    -- Floyd Baker (fbaker@wzrd.com), January 04, 1999.


    My gut-level instincts tell me it not the best thing to do, but I can't give you a single specific reason why.

    The threats we collectively can't quantify living up there?

    Fire. Water losses. Food unavailable. Possible riots - more likely individual gangs each fighting each other and anyone who has something they want. Single robbers, rapists, thieves (working locally in the uilding) when social order breaks down. Sewage system failing. Heat - easier to keep a small area warm than a big warehouse Leo! Lights - for the 14 hours you are dark each day, and for inside rooms. Loss of liberty - you get arbitraily sent to a shelter by the "authorities" then where? for how long? when can you return? will the shelter itself be safe? be secure? be warm? (Why would schools, auditoriums, other municipal "places" have power and heat when the utiltities are lost all over?)

    On the positive side? Services are more likely to be recovered closest to the politicians and the government. Services are likely to be prioritized to down town areas - but also are most difficult to recover there if fires, riots, or civil disruptions occur. If emergency care can be provided by the government, it will happen downtown rather than in the country.

    Biggest question? Do you trust everyone else in the 30 stories with your collective lives? Will anyone in those 30 stories abuse the trust and responsibilities needed to survive together - that is, will no rob, steal or rape? Will no one cause a catastropic fire? Will no one dump waste in the stairwells or cause pipes to freeze by carelessness? Will no one polute the water or damage the apartment below by stupidity or carelessness or ignorance?

    -- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), January 04, 1999.



    Thank you all for your opinions, the popular consensus seems to indicate that I will be in serious trouble if I stay where I am, fire has always been one of my concerns.

    Bugging out seems to be my best option. Going south doesn't appeal to me, too many guns and too many people (no offence to anyone), I would rather take my chances with a Canadian winter.

    Find an abandoned building?? Not in Toronto, most abandoned buildings are being renovated as high-priced condominiums - it's the 'in' thing.

    Renting a place for a couple of months doesn't sound good either, the owners could suddenly 'get it' in November and cancel my reservations.

    Having as much control as possible appeals to me, lakefront property north or east would be nice, maybe I'll talk to family/friends and see if they are interested in getting some nice secluded vacation property.... I have a tight deadline for this, but I'm used to working under pressure.

    Any advice on what to look for in a Y2K stronghold? Obviously I need enough storage space for any food I need, I will look for a lake that will supply water, enough space for any people I invite, good area for planting vegetables, maybe space for a greenhouse so I can extend the growing season.

    Oz.

    -- Oz (daveo@home.com), January 04, 1999.


    Man, I like the abandoned building idea. That's just the sort of crazy sneakiness that those of us on limited budgets need.

    -- Shimrod (shimrod@lycosmail.com), January 09, 1999.

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