Ok, shoot me if this is the wrong kind of question. I am interested in using non-photo packs for photography purposes. The packs are "technical day packs" meaning that they have internal frames (designed to carry heavy loads) and are exteremely durable. The reason why I don't run out and buy a Lowepro: verstility (I do a lot of hiking)and only want to buy one pack. I am wondering about issues such as accessiblilty (I know I will lose here but how much in your experience), ability to carry a tripod (the big issue because I can't buy a $600 CF tripod) or anything else I have not thought of. Some examples of packs are Black Diamond Attack Pack, Arcteryx Bora 40, etc. I would really like reposnes from people with experience with these types of packs. Some speculation is ok, if you are bringing up a point I have not thought of. Yes I posted this question on Photo.net, just looking for answers from a different crowd.

thanks-- BV

-- Brian Vega (vega@micron.net), January 02, 1999

Answers

Hey Brian, I don't have the full answer, but maybe some thoughts. I have the same problem and have concluded that camera pros are tough enough that they really don't need lunches or layered clothes, just a bunch of camera gear.

What I currently do is attach my tripod to an ice axe/snow shovel lashing on my EMS day pack. Most day packs I've seen have a similar feature, whether the original purpose was for X-country skiis, ski poles, or just a lot of multipurpose lashing points. Mountainsmith is known for this type of feature. I have a Lowe day pack with a similar feature. I have Lowepro padded Camera case that's just big enough for my camera and two extra lenses as well as extra film and filters. It's about 10" X 8" or so. This goes in my day pack with all my other gear.

I'm not familiar with the packs you mentioned, but would think a good multi-purpose camera/day pack would be front loading rather than top loading so you don't have to root through all of your stuff to get at the item you need - camera or other wise. Also, the more comparments, the better organization, as your clothes don't get mixed in with your granola or your camera gear.

What I'm thinking on doing for my camera gear is to buy a lash on pack bag(s) - several companies make these of different sizes. Mountainsmith is the one I'm most familiar with. Then using some ShoeGoo and cut ensolite, customize compartments for my camera and lenses. Then lash it onto the exterior side(s) of the pack using the lashing points most good packs have. That way it I could get at it without having to open up my day pack. Still working on how to keep it waterproof, but that's where I'm at now.

Let me know if you have some better ideas.

Roger

-- Roger Rouch (rrouch@msn.com), January 02, 1999.

Roger,

Thanks for the great response. Any tips on attaching things (tripod) to lash points? I have not tried to do this but seems like it would be hard to keep heavy load steady. Hate to admit this because I work at an outdoor sports shop, shoe and clothing section though, so I have a little bit of an excuse. If you are interested I saw a brief sidebar in the latest Outdoorphotographer about non-photo packs. Have you been satisfied with Mountainsmith packs? Which ones have you had? Always looking for personal stories.

Thanks--- BV

-- Brian Vega (vega@micron.net), January 03, 1999.

Brian,

I have one of the larger Mountainsmith lumbar packs. I use it when bicycling. It will hold my Lowepro camera case and much other stuff, but I haven't even tried to attach a tripod. I usually throw in an Ultrapod, but these are hardly a substitute. The construction and design are excellent and if I had to start over with day packs I would definately take a hard look at them. The day packs are a bit pricey, but I would think they are worth it. The separate accessory bags I mentioned are sized to securely strap onto the Mountainsmith packs.

As for other lashing methods, I guess there's enough variation it's hard to say. My EMS pack has adjustable straps with quick release clips, which makes getting the tripod on and off very quick. You can get straps with slip buckles or elastic cord with quick releases?

Might also mention that I have a Jansport external frame for extended trips and there's plenty of ways to get the tripod on. I've also had an REI internal frame which was poorly designed and hard to attach things to.

Good luck, Roger

-- Roger Rouch (rrouch@msn.com), January 03, 1999.

I use a Lowe Pro Mountain Contour 40 backpack. It is very well designed, I can fit my camera bag in it, and a extra case with a 300mm lense. Plus a whole lot more! It is easy to strap a good sized tripod on, to either it's back or sides. You might be able to fit some of those Domke dividers inside, to really cusomize it.

-- Nick Stevens (nickstevens@hotmail.com), January 03, 1999.

Nick thanks for replying. Does the Lowe have a frame? Also want kind of tripod do you carry? I have a Bogen 3021 + 3047 head (heavy as hell but I could afford it, about 10 lbs), will this pack handle that much weight? Are you able to keep the tripod stable, how do you accomplish this? I assume you carry the tripod in a vertical position I don't have a very large assortment of camera junk to carry along. So most of what will go in to the pack is "hiking basics" But of course I want some room to grow.

BV

-- Brian Vega (vega@micron.net), January 03, 1999.

Brian,

Forget the Lowe Contour 40 if you want an internal frame pack. I bought one, and the stiffening material used (not metal) lost all stiffness within a few months of normal usage.

I own a Bogen 3021 tripod with an Arca-Swiss head and Gitzo 106 with a small Kaiser ballhead, modified by Kirk to have an Arca QR. Which one I take hiking depends mostly on whim but the tendency (obviously!) is to take the smaller one when pounds really count. The Gitzo is actually quite stable if you don't extend the center column and is small enough to fit inside most daypacks or in the outside pockets of larger backpacks. You might want to consider a lighter, more portable tripod if the Bogen is too heavy. That's why I bought the the smaller Gitzo and I'm very happy with it (although it is very irritating to think that I spent more money on my lightweight, portable tripod than my heavy duty one).

As for which packs are better, I'm gonna wimp out and say it depends on your personal preference. For me, when I'm carrying a moderate to heavy load, I HATE taking the pack off to get to my camera equipment. For convenient access to equipment I've bought individual, padded lens poouches. A variety of companies make them but mine are from Outpack. If you buy medium sized ones, you can put in lenses, film, and a variety of other things. They have a sewn in lash point. I use carabiners and attach the pouches to the bottom of the shoulder straps. That way I have easy access to my gear. Some backpacks actually have D-rings right on the shoulder straps. Mine don't. I've yet to figure out a way to lash my tripod to the backpack and still have it accessible without having to take off the pack. So I hand carry the tripod with camera attached. If someone can come up with a way to carry the tripod on a pack and yet be accessible without having to remove the pack, please give me the secret.

The pack that I use for long dayhikes with my family is the Rising Star by REI. I hike with my wife, a seven year old, and a two year old. Since my wife carries the baby (a Kelty carrier-great design), I carry food, water, spare clothes, etc for everybody so I need a slightly larger pack than you might. This is REI's smallest and cheapest true internal frame pack - $95. My main complaint is that it's a top-loader but for the price it's great. It has a couple of large side pockets that I can put my small tripod into.

-- Paul Tsong (tsong.p@ghc.org), January 04, 1999.

Hi there,

It's a bit of an obscure pack, but the Cerro Torre Blackbird (I think that's what it is!)is pretty good for outdoor type daytrips. I have had one since late last summer and I have taken it on sveral trips, ranging from dayhikes to full on rick climbing weekends. I usually take my photo gear (including tripod) as well as the regular gear and it has served me well. It has a perimeter frame (aluminum hoop running around the sides and top of the pack) with a large pocket on the back. The strap and harness system are well shaped and padded and decently adjustable; the pack handles heavy loads well. There is a water bottle pouch on either side which I find is perfect to stick the tripod feet in one, securing the top with the upper compression strap buckle. This binds the tripod against the pack frame so it won't shift around on you when in travel. I prefer not to hang a lot of things off the pack, but I do put a lens case on either side of the waist strap (a la Kinesis system) for quick access to my 28, 35, 80-200, or 90mm macro (whatever I happen to be carrying) when I'm not climbing.

The bag is front loading with heavy zippers and constructed with heavy ripstop nylon and capacity is about 40 L. It has a good haul handle (good for climbing), 2 ice axe loops, rope straps on top (good for holding a fleece or shell when you overheat), and a single daisy chain (gear loops) for lashing stuff on.

Avoid top-loaders like the plague. I had one and replaced it with this one. They are prone to the "black hole effect" where things tend to disappear into the depths of the bag. Oh yeah, and since camera gear is so compact and heavy it ALWAYS sinks right to the bottom and it's a real pain when you need anything in a hurry.

I also looked at the Arcteryx Boras and the Black Diamond Attack pack. The Boras are beautiful packs, but too expensive and not true front-loaders. For that much, you might as well get one of the Lowe Pro packs. The Black Diamond is a nice looking pack, but it seems a little small, and the ice axe loops seem like a good idea, but from what I've seen they don't hold a tripod very securely (swings around too much, unless the pack is absolutely stuffed and even then it is still irritating for me).

If you have any questions about the pack, feel free to e-mail me.

-- Daryl Hiebert (dhiebe@po-box.mcgill.ca), February 01, 1999.

I e-mailed Daryl directly and then decided to post this anyway. To keep the "conversation" complete. Hopefully I will be buying my pack soon, in time for some spring hiking. I will post a report of what I buy and how it works out.

Please keep the suggestions coming!

Daryl,

Thanks for the reply. Is your pack an external frame pack? Also do you find that carrying a tripod on the side is a bit unbalancing? I was interested in the Attack Pack because I thought that the ice tool tubes would be perfect for carrying a tripod, more stable than loops. Have you tried one out? I got their catalog and I am now looking at the Mixed Master (a bigger version) but I e-mailed BD about the packs and they are coming out with new packs this spring so I am holding out to see them.

I hear ya about top loaders but somethings you (meaning me) just have to live with. If I can get the pack I want and the only weak part is top loading guess I will live with it.

By the way I bought my wife a Bora 65 she loves and a friend has a Bora 80 and also loves. Must admit that I get a discount on products since I work at a sporting goods store. But no one there is into photogrpahery (so no one has used the packs in a similar situation) and we have small stock on hand so I must look elsewhere for information and personal experiences with particular packs.

Thanks for your time. By the way where are you and what type of photography and backing packing do you do?

Thanks-- Brian Vega

-- Brian Vega (vega@micron.net), February 01, 1999.

hi Brian, In the name of completeness, I also decided to post my follow up respose. You've already read this so there is no need to read on.

I am currently in Montreal, Quebec until I graduate this summer. I have been here for several years going to school (McGill University), so my winter outings have been quite limited. I spend my summers in Kelowna, BC much further west, just in the rain shadow of the coastal mountains). There, I do a lot of mountain biking, rock climbing, and general scampering around in the bush. Here, in Montreal, I am limited to mainly day outings to go rock or ice climbing or for the occasional epic day hike (!).

I have only been serious about photography for a couple of years now and I seem to enjoy nature stuff (scenics, macros, etc.) and I am a scavenging animal photographer (as in, I always keep my camera beside me on the truck seat in case I see anything!). But basically, I'll shoot anything from junior sports to cityscapes to a night at the bar. For me, being out there is the important part. I spend most of my weekends up at our cabin with that as my home base.

My primary rigs are my Nikon F2 and FE, although I have several cameras ranging from Pentax Spotmatics to a turn of the century mahogany, brass, and leather view camera that takes breathtaking 6x9 positives (!). Oh yeah, and it's usually a good bet that I have my trusty little Olympus Stylus Epic in a nearby pocket just about all the time.

I didn't really consider the Black Diamond packs too seriously because nobody around here carries them. All I had to go with was a couple of catalog photos. I have tried the ice tool tubes on a couple of other packs, as well as the add-on Arcteryx crampon bag/ice tool holder (awesome price on this as long as you can get the slightly smaller one) and the Dana Designs ice tool tube (way overpriced, much like the Dana packs!). I tried on the Arcteryx packs and yes, they are heavenly, but very expensive (for a student anyway). I tried the Bora 60 and 80. they didn't have the 40, so I can't comment on that one. One thing about the ice tool tobes: they are way too small. You can usually only fit one tripod leg in. That meant the other 2 legs (the bulk of the weight) is free to swing unless you cinch it right down. Even then, I think it will be subject to swing, and accessibility is hampered. For short stuff like an afternoon mountain bike ride, I might throw some gear into my camel back type hydration pack, or use my Lowe Alpine Double Dipper fanny pack. It has 2 awesome water bottle holders which happen to be insulated (padded) and are the perfect fit for a nikon tele and my Tamron 90 macro. I usually leave the 35 or 28 on the body.

About my pack. I'm not sure if you'd really call it an external frame in a traditional sense. I guess it is. The frame is shaped like an inverted U and the part that goes against your back is minimally padded, except for a padded strip up the center to which the shoulder straps are attached (this attachment point is adjustable, very nice for fine tuning, rare in a pack this size- good for adjusting slearance above your harness!). There are also load control straps which run from the shoulder straps to the top of the frame, so they are very effective in adjusting how the load sits, unlike in a frameless or even some internal frame packs. The bottom part of the bag is double layered and the outer layer is slightly larger sized (a la Dana Designs) so the internal layer may be maxed out with the outer layer helping out, but not under total tension. This way the outer layer is FAR more resistant to tears. As I mentioned, I've only had this particular pack since late last summer, but I am very impressed with it. The compression straps mount right on the frame, as do the shoulder straps (i.e. loop around the frame on the outside, velcro to the center pad for adjustment). The upper section against the back is reinforced with some plastic sheet inside, which extends down about 10 inches. There are 2 unprotected (nylon only sections) under this measuring about 6 inches by 3 inches. After this, the waist strap takes over and the rest is padded. As I mentioned, it's a front loader. The zipper extends down both sides to within 6 inches of the bottom. The upper compression straps on either side have buckles so the panel can drop right down. I find this convenient as a little table for lens changes or film, or whatever if I am stationary for any amount of time. Oh yeah, and the pack passes the pillow test. Always something important to consider!

I should mention that I have shoulder problems (one separation 4 years ago and the other one likes to chronically dislocate itself at the most inopportune times) and of my packs and the ones I've tried this one is definitely fits me best (i.e. gives me little, if any hassle). One of our last day trips was an ALL DAY hike on Mt Algonquin in the Adirondacks, and I packed my trekking gear plus photogear plus water plus ice tools, crampons, food, etc. for a good steady 13 or 14 hour walk. No upper body issues at all. As for the legs, well that was a different story.

For real trips, I just bite the bullet and load up my North Face 80 liter bag with stuff I need, and then fill some of the space with camera gear.

If I can find a catalog with a picture of it, I will scan it and e- mail it to you, or post it here maybe. Otherwise, if you're willing to wait a week or so I can take a couple pictures of it and scan those and send them off to you.

About feeling unbalanced... Well not really because the tripod can't swing freely. That gave me more of an unsteady feeling and it really bugged me on my last bag. On this one it is not able to gain any momentum because it is lashed to the frame, so it moves with the bag, which moves with the body. One thing about it that does bug me a little is that it sits a leetle bit wide when strapped in like that. My Manfrotto (Bogen) 3001 with the 3262 midi ball head (crappy head, don't ever get one) is 25 inches tall when folded right down and doesn't really sit much above the pack, but it does stick out a little past my shoulder. For ice this doesn't bother me much, but for rock, I usually stick it inside because it's not much good mid-pitch anyway! When I need it, it's still very accessible. Just undo one buckle and pull the base out of the water bottle pocket and there you go.

packing methodology: I tend to keep everything in little colour- coded stuff sacks.

about price: This baby cost me about $130 Canadian plus tax. Much less than comparable offerings from The North Face, or Arcteryx, Gregory, Dana, Mountainsmith, etc... and comparable to others in price only (others are more travel specific for yuppies in Exec class or for people who want something that looks rugged to go with their Jeep Cherokee Limiteds or Range Rovers, etc. Most of these are glorified book bags. If the Arcteryx was comparable in price I would have probably gone with it though. Someday.....

Right now I am looking for someting to fill the gap between 40 and 85 liters. I was looking at the Lowe Alpine Attack 50 which happens to be on sale next door. My tripod fits nicely in the crampon pouch on the back, with a leg in each drainage hole and the third one hanging out free (nifty compression straps to close the pouch top act to stabilize the tripod). It IS a top loader, but the panels are bright yellow and let a fair bit of light through and as you said, sometimes there is a trade off to be made. I am also considering picking up one of the Lowe Pro omni packs which are designed to fit in a Pelican case. They seem pretty low profile. There is one which seems right for a body and 3 lenses or so. This would sit inside most packs nicely. My only misgiving about the Alpine attack 50 is that it's a frameless pack.

Whoah, talk about rambling. Sorry about the length of the message. I just pulled out the tape measure and started yapping about stuff. My roommate and I are both gearheads, and 2 doors down from our apartment happens to be our favourite gear shop (guess where we hang out!).

Man, in a way I can't wait until I have kids so they can carry some of my stuff!!!!!!!!!!!

best of luck to you,

-D

-- Daryl Hiebert (dhiebe@po-box.mcgill.ca), February 03, 1999.

Daryl and I have been writing back-n-forth. I elminated the parts of my message that do not apply to this forum and thread. Feel free to e-mail me if you have questions.

About the packs... You mentioned that you have tried out the Acrteryx crampon accessory. How does it work? Would it hold a tripod? ArcTeryx packs are spendy but I get a good deal at work because I sure could not afford them on a first year teaching salary, at least not an Idaho salary. You mention that ice tool tubes don't work well. Is that a general statement or are you talking about Acrteryx packs? I really got started on this search because of a photo I saw of a tripod sitting in a tube of the Attack Pack (Outdoor Photographer). I had this idea for a while but this really got me going. Your pack sounds great. Do you have an address for the company I would like to look at a photo of it, and I love to read about "toys." I actually put my camera gear in with the sleeping bag (near the top in case I land on my butt) and have had no problems. Have you had any experience with Lowe packs? Their Alpine Attack 50 looks nice and has an outer pocket that might hold a tripod or I could put it on the side in a water bottle pocket as you do. Now I have to find someone who carries the pack. (Never mind re-reading your message I see you mentioned) There website makes it sound like it has a frame and Backpacker mag reports that it has a frame. What is up? On that topic what is your opinion on Backpacker and similar mags? Do they give honest and useful info? I know a lot of folks think photo mags are run by the advertisers. Thanks -- BV

-- Brian Vega (vega@micron.net), February 05, 1999.

I do a lot of hiking with a camera -- and I mean a LOT of hiking. One of the biggest sticking points for me was how to carry a tripod. I could either say "screw it" and take a light, cheapie Velbon tripod, or struggle wih my 10-lb. Bogen 3021/3047 combo.

The way I found easiest was to get one of the straps Bogen offers for their pods. What I usually do then is put my internal frame pack on, then sling the tripod over my shoulder and around my neck, and then buckle my waist strap and sternum strap over the tripod strap. This keeps it from banging around.

-- Christian Deichert (torgophile@aol.com), March 30, 1999.

Chris,

Glad to hear that such a simple solution works for you. Straps around my neck annoy the hell out of me. I have my camera straps rigged up to hang off of my sholuder straps. The tripod strap under the pack straps don't rub? Doesn't your shoulders ache after carrying that combo around (I have the same combo)?

By the way I bought a REI Talus pack. Look at http://www.rei.com. With a few modifications it carries my tripod well enough, plus room for lunch and other stuff.

BV

-- Brian Vega (vega@micron.net), March 30, 1999.

Hi, I have been using my REI Talus for the last month and have been very pleased with. Heck it was only $75. I add a couple of extra strap (also useful to carry wet gear) and now my tripod doesn't slip. The pack is very comfortable with camera stuff (I don't take a lot) and the more important stuff like food, rain gear, and other essentials. After this school lets and I finish grading finals I will post a more thorough post on all the different packs I looked at, their features, and why I picked the Talus.

BV

-- Brian Vega (vega@micron.net), May 09, 1999.

Hey Brian,

Glad to hear that you are enjoying your new pack. One question for you: How do you manage to organize your camera gear within the bag? I find that when I do this, all my camera gear manages to work its way under my food and clothes and stuff and it's a real pain to get the stuff out. I have since started hanging a couple items off the waist strap--1 smallish case on either side. This is good for the frequently needed things. I usually leave the 80-200 on the body and carry a wide angle on one side and my macro on the other. I've found this to be not too bad for hiking. For climbing it's a pain because it gets in the way, and I haven't yet found a decent solution for this.

So far my solution has been this: When I use my front-loading bag (the Cerro Torre Blackbird, for thos interested) I just drop it all in there because it's relatively easy to open it up and get to the bottom. When I use my larger top-loading bag, I lower my entire camera bag in there (Lowe Pro S&F Reporter 200) and it fits in quite nicely. Unfortunately, it gets in the way of trying to get to my other gear. I might not need to use this bag so much anymore since some work broke into my apartment and stole a bunch of my lenses, thus lightening my load.

Hope the season is going well for you.

-- Daryl Hiebert (dhiebe@po-box.mcgill.ca), May 10, 1999.

Daryl,

Did you get an e-mail from me with an attachment? I finally wrote up a draft of the packs I looked at and why I bought the Talus. Let me know and I will send it again. If anyone else wants it right away drop me a line. Otherwise I will ask Bob's permission to post it on the Nature section of photo.net. As soon as school gets out. Finals are more of a bitch as a teacher than as a student.

How do I keep things organized? Well I took out the foam inserts from my OutPack and it fit perfectly into the Talus. I place this at the bottom (easy to reach with the side zipper), clothes on top (protection),lunch, and other stuff on the very top. I also freeze my water bladder and it keeps my film and water cool on a hot day.

I can comfortably carry everything for both my wife and me. I am very happy with this set-up! Now for the Gitzo CF and some serious big glass, the money will start coming to me! Ok, maybe not better stick with the day job!

Have a good one! BV

-- Brian Vega (vega@micron.net), May 10, 1999.

For anyone still looking for the solution to slipping tri-pods on packs, A NewZealand company called Macpac manufacture an accesory called a SKITE which is designed to hold skis, Snowboards or any thing else you can think of (read tripods) on the outside of most packs You can download an exceptionaly high quality catalogue from the site www.macpac.co.nz - They also have a pack called the Rocketeer which features two ice axe "tubes" on the front panel, which I have found works brilliantly when sliding the legs of my Manfrotto in to.

-- tony armstrong (tony.armstrong@rmh.nthames.nhs.uk), April 27, 2000.