Long/Short term Prepgreenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
I have a major burr under my saddle. Have been participating in y2k prep lists for over a year, ran my own for a while, have done the local interviews with local CIO's, attended conferences - I see a problem re prep.
Almost all people or communities who are prep'ng end up talking about water filters, propane, generators, lighting, fuel storage, food storage, cash, etc. The litany is varied only when guns, martial law, or intentional communities get thrown into the conversation. Once in a while, non-hybrid seeds makes an obligatory appearance.
The burr I refer to is simple. People, all too often, are making contingency plans for y2k outages. But contingency plans have an inherent problem, that is: one. they are assuming a prep'd position which attempts to create or hold onto, what is now the status quo. two. contingency plans assume that the status quo or something similar will re-emerge.
Re y2k, can we safely assume (I'm an Infomagic 10 [minus nuke war]) that a well thought out CP will carry us until techno-society rights itself? Why are we assuming that techno-society can right itself? Because that is the easy way?
I began doing serious prep in Sept. Even including a windmill for the well, I found that standard 2 year prep is relatively cheap, easy, and fast to accomplish if done simple, 5 year is only marginally more difficult or costly. I started thinking about what I was doing and realized that my prep funds would actually be better used to create a different lifestyle between now and y2k. A lifestyle which has no dependance upon generators (wear out), propane (runs out), an enormous amount of grain and the like.
It is important to secure a fresh water source or means to create fresh water, it is important to deal with personal sewage. It is important to have food stashed. These being what I would call standard y2k prep, and of course the list is a bit longer than that, but not much. ;-)
Stop and think, if 6 months or a year's worth of prep proves, at 2001, to have been absolutely necessary, what is the chance that society is going to restructure, at all, in _anything resembling its present form? My estimation is near zero to that question.
So I adjusted my prep accordingly. Rather than 5 years of grain, or tanks of propane, kerosene refrigerators, in other words, the stuff of y2k prep, why not just go with the flow and prep for a non-tech society? Prep that will allow you a life, while not cushy and comfortable as we now define them, but will be cushy and comfortable in comparasion to the neighbors who are relying upon generators, for example, and have their fuel run out mid-course or the generator brushes wear out.
Simple stuff really. Changing diet, how to cook, what to cook, amounts to cook, what to cook on and in, setting up big subsistance gardens and storing your yearly seed, setting up the means to have and use a draft animal, pigeons, chickens, turkeys, geese. Making a root cellar. Learning how to can now, and getting the very cheap glass jars and lots of lids. Anticipating now, that the entertainment industry will be gone, so get that old piano tuned, buy several cases of guitar strings, buy as many music books, of all kinds, as you can find. Deal with the water and sewage problem, long term. Accumulate a good library, lots of reference books, how to by-hand books - used books are very inexpensive. I'm just scratching the surface here, but perhaps this will give you an idea of how I'm thinking about this.
Now is the time to not only prepare for y2k, but the time to prepare so when your y2k stash runs out you won't be thrust into a position where you either die or start sliding back to the stone age because of lack of prep. Or worse, you must become beholden to those who have thought ahead and did get the means to live ok, if not well, without techno-society. In other words, preparation enabling you to stop your slide-back at the 1850's rather than the stone age.
While I personally don't believe it is at all _possible that y2k effects will be over with in one year, let alone deJager's SciAmerican Jan00 "bumpmonth", what if you _do prepare for the 1850's and y2k is a squib.? What have you actually lost? Anything? I think not. You have just taken yourself off of the techno-tit, something that all of us should think about doing anyway, both for ourselves and the planet.
I remember that Pink Floyd lyric: do you "want a walk-on part in the war, or a leading role in a cage?"
Yours, breaking out of the cage, mitch
-- Mitchell Barnes (email@example.com), December 30, 1998
An excellent post. I am trying to force myself to face the fact that life will never be the same. And I know that my stash is going to run out, get stolen, confiscated, etc. So what is the answer? As this post points out, preparations are a transition measure to ease the passage to a completely new lifestyle, for which I am currently poorly equipped. Self-reliance for the average American is a romantic mirage. It almost seems as if this crisis were designed to destroy the few remaining atheistic bricks in my inmost man. Lord, have mercy.
-- Mark (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 30, 1998.
Your new lifestyle assumes people will respect your property rights. Think no police protection. Will starving mobs raid your big garden and take over your windmill pumped well? Look at the posts on current day Russia, you will understand that the "mob" will take over. Some would argue we have "mob" control here (FBI,CIA,ATF,UN etc...) But the real mob won't respect your private property and you better be ready to defend your new lifestyle with force. The masses are used to having food and shelter take those things away and things will get ugly fast, very fast.
-- Bill (email@example.com), December 30, 1998.
You have apoint, but..... Go back and read the post again. this time, read between th elines in the list areas. What Mitch is talking about is NOT what gets stored in the barn. These things are mutable, and can be replaced, if you have the proper ***infrastructure***!!! Mitch is talking about the infrastructure of teh barn, and teh garden plots. The infrastructure of the education and skills you have stored in your tenacity chest in your head. The infrastructure which is the result of you and your significant other, and a few like-minded souls and brainstorming to come up with a description of life in the mid 1800's and how you would effectuate this lifestyle.
A good source might be any of several books by the Betteman Archive, one of which is "The Good Old Days Were Really Terrible" or close to that. Yeah, it's easier to do if you have the seeds and teh garden protected, and all of that, but think about what you can do with a minimum of "Things".
-- Chuck a night driver (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 31, 1998.
Good thinking, Mitchell. If society can't be brought back to something like the status quo, that's the only way to go. You'll want to have good relations with your neighbors, though, I think.
Tens of millions of people live in the cities, in houses with little or no yards, in condos, hi-rises, and apartments with no yard at all. And there is quite a large population in nursing homes and assisted living communities. The homeless, what can I say... For all these, the steps you outline will be difficult to execute.
We have painted ourselves into a very dismal corner. If your expectations are fulfilled, I hope those happy few, like yourself, who can opt out, will succeed.
-- Tom Carey (email@example.com), December 31, 1998.
Mitch, Given the scenario you expect, you are making a LOT of sense. The ability to let go of a familiar life-style certainly makes you a lot more flexible/adaptable. Just like being an adventurous, rather than picky, eater makes travel more pleasurable and interesting. Holding onto any expectation tooth and nail is asking for (unnecessary) misery. Bill, Even ammunition will eventually run out in a worst-case scenario- and even if it didn't, it only takes one bullet to kill you- or one case of untreated appendicitis. Total self-sufficiency is part of American mythology, but it is no accident that community is considerably more common. Building skills and community is creative work, y2k or no. Trying to barricade yourself against all the various bad things you fear could happen will put you on a never-ending treadmill. It will never be enough. If you raised kids on fear, you'ld never let them do anything!
-- Maria (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 31, 1998.
As we've noted before on this forum, the Amish exemplify the kind of lifestyle Mitchell would like to prep for. Anyway, I think that the poor and middle class GI's will end up prepping like Mitchell, simply for economic reasons. The rich GI's will have super-compounds and depending on the loyality and skill of their hired defenders, may end up as a warlord class.
Power grows out of the barrel of a gun.
-- Runway Cat (email@example.com), December 31, 1998.
I concur with the others..excellent post. I agree it has to be a lifestyle change.Otherwise you ditch the preparations if the incident doesn't happen and panic when something else does...again. If there is anything to be learned from all of this is that a more simle lifestyle is better for survival. I bought alot of books on edible landscaping etc. Granted you can't live off the land all the time but it does help to know which mushrooms you can eat if you have to. The supply should be ok if you have it growing on your land. Cattails are good for many things. Wild rice. Lilly's. Herb garden for medicinal purposes etc etc etc. The amish have it 95% right! I am worried that many will head for them asap after y2k..they don't believe in self defence. Makes them pretty vulnerable. They probably aren't even worried about things either because of their lifestyle. Maybe they don't realize it will disrupt their way of life too.
-- Moore Dinty moore (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 31, 1998.
The Amish around here are VERY aware and VERY concerned. Remember, in terms of self defense, as my wife says it only takes 1 rape and things change. Also remember, the total lifestyle is only adhered to by the bearded and braided ADULTS. the children live under no such strictures, as anyone who has heard the boom boxes in the buggies can testify.
(Consider the visual of 2 horses and buggies going at a DEAD TROT, with Metalica coming from one of the buggies!! LOL ROFCLTWW [Rolling on Floor of Car Losing Touch With Wheel!!!!!!])
ps these folks DO hunt and fish so firearms are NOT new to them.)
-- Chuck a night driver (email@example.com), December 31, 1998.
I've been worried about the same thing, Mitch. Too many people are buying stuff that they think will save them instead of seeking the education to save themselves.
I have played at being a "farmer" for the last 10 years with varying degrees of success. Have lots of books, magazines and other reference material on gardening, canning and such things. (By the way, if you can only buy one book, make it Carla Emery's 'Encyclopedia of Country Living'.) I have learned alot and know that I am ahead of most. But the thought of my family depending totally on my ability to be successful in growing, harvesting and preserving a crop scares me hairless! There are too many variables; I need definites.
-- kitty (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 31, 1998.
I kind of fall in the middle of the 2 groups - 1) buy 2 years of food, and guns and generator, and hunker down. 2) mostly self-reliant peopl who stored food and supplies, and who have the knowledge to carry on after their stored stuff runs out or breaks down.
I've setup a solar rig to run the well, as well as some small appliances, stored food, am setting up large raised bed/intensive gardening area, have non-hybrid seed, am learning older skills, etc.
I hope it all blows over, and the crisis isn't all that bad, but I'm mostly prepared for it. Hope to do well afterward too, if possible.
I need to stash some critical supplies so that if some of it all gets stolen/burned, I have enough to carry on with.
-- Bill (email@example.com), December 31, 1998.
IF the power stays out for an extended period of time then our lives change radically.
IF it comes back on in days to weeks to three months or so, expect a muddle-through to re-create our old lives just a bit differently and with less co-dependency. In either case, there is an abundant natural world all around us just waiting for us to take notice.
SHORT TERM: 1 week to 3 months. Expect local neighborhood & community cooperation with previously stored and prepared items in most places. Anticipate upheaval and military, police, National Guard and ROTC intervention in the un-prepared places and major metropolitan areas. You are either camping at home or away from home. Keep it simple. WATER, food, shelter, medical, heat, renewable solar-powered items for light, heat and cooking, etc. Forget the generator. Local transportation = bicycle or foot power. Car = one tank of gas for departure strategy (can bury couple spare tanks of gas in the back yard). Extended services down, local is all there is.
MID-TERM: 3 months to one year (a growing season). Plant the gardens, be ready with seeds and tools, canning capabilities, organic gardening, large scale irrigation, natural pest control, community gardens, really develop the local tribe distribution of skills and abilities. The opportunity to share your stored figure it out inventive knowledge with others and learn from them. Pull together. Work within the natural environment. Integrate the protectors into the community. Rationing. This is the hardest and most challenging time physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually. The nuturers will be in great demand.
Long-Term: Beyond one year. Trading economies developing with neighboring communities. Very inventive ways of working around with the already in place infrastructure. Forms of power back on. New kind of person whos learned how to survive, and co-operate at unexpected levels. A newly empowered population who knows what is important. Even with the power eventually coming back on, it would never be the same. Could be better, some places could be way worse due to choices made early on.
Its all a dangerous opportunity.
-- Diane J. Squire (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 31, 1998.
Good thread. I, like so many of you, have also struggled with this whole thing too, and have come to similar conclusions to what others have posted. Emphasizing knowledge and skills as part of preparation is prudent, as well as the goal of obaining as high a level of self-suffiency as is possible. Someone also mentioned flexability and adaptability, things which we will find are increasingly important in a fast changing world, where current rules may not even be applicable.
-- Rob Michaels (email@example.com), December 31, 1998.
bill@microsoft - so what do you suppose I should do? Turn over and die? btw, what was your point again?
Diane - wish I still had your optimism. :-)
-- Mitchell Barnes (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 31, 1998.
This "Little House on the Praire" dream lifestyle only works in a small prepared community. You better be way off the beaten path. Your trying to relearn your own lifestyle might work if you are in the right location. For 80% of the US this plan won't work. We need doctors, dentists, vets, etc... We enjoy Safeway, Walmart, etc.... My 6 month vision is "Road Warrior", yours seems to be "Little House on the Praire". Good luck.
-- bill (email@example.com), December 31, 1998.
Bill, the point of the post wasn't to compare hit scenarios. I made it very clear by saying I am Infomagic 10minus that I consider preparation a must. The point of the post was to bring forth an idea that just preparing for y2k isn't enough, one must prepare for the post y2k world too.. I'm not preparing for Little House - that is a piece of TV romantic fiction. Yes I live very remote and rural. I too need dr.s, dentists and the like, which is why I wanted to say that people need to consider preparation in the case that those services might be gone. Permanently. All prep is site specific. I'm trying to point out that regardless of any y2k scenario, there are things ppl can do now which could help them considerably in a post y2k world. Preparations which aren't on regular y2k prep "how to" lists.
I'm well aware, and may have posted it first on the net many months ago, that everyone who preps better be able to watch it all go down the tubes if all plans fail - and then get on with what you still can do. That is part of prep too. That is survival.
Re y2k stuff: I'm not willing to rely upon govt or business when it comes to my precious hide. I am willing to rely upon my good judgement, common sense, & neighborhood mutual views and friendships.
I ask again, what should I do in your estimation, roll over and die of fright, giving up? Not in my constitution, and neither is joining or forming a Road Warrior gang. What is your real objection to my post?
-- Mitchell Barnes (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 31, 1998.
Here is what Bill's point looked like to me:
[From my interpretation of the description of your planned lifestyle, it seems to me that ]
Your new lifestyle assumes people will respect your property rights.
[but I did not see any mention of security and you need to provide your own security operations in your planning and preparations. This could be priority number one.]
Here is what Mitchell's main point looks like:
Long-term survival requires reduction of material requirements (brought to you by the infrastructure) and diversification of knowledge and skills so as to allow ongoing self-sufficiency.
Existing infrastructure systems will not be physically destroyed by a bug nor discarded by its operators, people will try to keep it going. Computers are here to stay (y2k will not be able to take them oput of existence) but y2k will definitely increase the amount of back-to- nature communities. Compromised infrastructure and applications, along with many other non-y2k problems are leading straight towards global economic downturn and higher crime rates.
Mitchell's plan seems very good and complete after adding in security operations (granted, low-tech lifestyle is not for everyone).
-- Jon (email@example.com), December 31, 1998.
jonmiles wrote: >Here is what Bill's point looked like to me:
>Your new lifestyle assumes people will respect your property rights. >[but I did not see any mention of security and you need to provide >your own security operations in your planning and preparations. This >could be priority number one.]
Now do you think I would be so open as to tell everyone _all my plans? And in addition, that type of planning _is not_, at all, what my post was about.
From those who use that piece of Hollywood romantic fiction "Road Warrier" as the basis for their scenarios, we almost always get the ravening hoards storming the fort. And by using this little warming scene, they negate any long term survival plans that anyone may offer forth. If one follows the RW scenario out full, even assuming it might be able to happen, in effect RW is such a complete negative that it can be used as a piece of rhetoric to "logically" point out that any prep, especially long term, "let's get life back together, even if it is a low-tech version" is totally stupid, short sighted, wrong.
Well, I'm call the game here. It isn't just Bill, these people who use this self-satisfied apocolyptic vision tear down any constructive dialog about long term plans are legion on the net. Not only are these people mean spirited & short sighted, but they wish to drag others down to their level. I'm tired of it, been playing this game a year and a half. Almost universally, on every list I've been on, when a real quality prep thread gets going, up pops the local troll to tell everyone why the idea is bad. On every list, nearly all the really good people end up either lurking or they sign off because of ill mannered ruffians.
So again, I ask Bill, what do you want me to do? Roll over and play dead? And even more importantly, what are your long term plans? Not to pick just on Bill here, but all you negative troll types, you are so busy breaking down other people, you never seem to have the time to offer up what you are doing, or really, to offer up much of anything of positive value.
>Here is what Mitchell's main point looks like: > >Long-term survival requires reduction of material requirements >(brought to you by the infrastructure) and diversification of >knowledge and skills so as to allow ongoing self-sufficiency.
Jon, that is partially right. Self-sufficiency, not as an island, but always as a group, in long term y2k plans requires that one acquire, not only knowledge and skills, but also certain hard infrastructures in order to maintain relative quality of life, even a low-tech life.
>My comments: > >Existing infrastructure systems will not be physically destroyed by a >bug nor discarded by its operators, people will try to keep it going. >Computers are here to stay (y2k will not be able to take them oput of >existence)
I coming from an Infomagic 10-, and anyone can argue about that, and I won't respond to a scenario war. But as a I-10- (& I've been that since last year), the idea expressed in the above paragraph doesn't make sense. Sure the hard infrastructure isn't going to go away, and sure there will be attempts to coddle along and revivify hobbled infrastructures, but as a 10-, none of those really will make much difference. If you don't want to re-read Infomagic again, I'll summarize quickly. The large scale breakdown of intertwined systems will ultimately cause a large scale die-off. And with that die-off we are going to loose most of our skilled people who would be the one's able to revivify the life support systems. I'm not going to get into a pi$$ing contest about impacts, I'm just saying that in my take of y2k the probability of a big techno-slide-back is so high that I feel compelled to arrange the conditions of my life right now to optimize my chances of survival in comfort. The original post was nothing more than pointing out to those who feel as I do, that y2k prep isn't enough, long term prep involves something deeper.
> but y2k will definitely increase the amount of back-to-nature communities.
Perhaps. Unless those communities are prepared with the soft and hard infrastructures they will be hard pressed to take advantage of what Diane calls the bounty of the Earth. The point of the orig post was to alert people that in order to maintain a degree of civilized comfort in a back-to-nature community there are necessary infrastructure items to be acquired now, while they are easy and cheap and available.
>Compromised infrastructure and applications, >along with many other non-y2k problems are leading straight towards >global economic downturn and higher crime rates. > >Mitchell's plan seems very good and complete after adding in security >operations (granted, low-tech lifestyle is not for everyone).
Actually, I've written elsewhere in this Forum and other lists about the security aspect, and will let other's hash that one out.
As an Infomagic 10, I do not see that very many will have a choice about a low-tech lifestyle. Those who realize this can act with grace and adequately prepare.
btw. public and private feedback has been almost completely, overwhelmingly positive.
Regards to all.
-- Mitchell Barnes (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 01, 1999.
Mitchell, thanks for clarifying your views. I couldn't find any discussions on security plans for communities, but if you know of a thread on this subject, can you post the name.
Ideally a community would be situated in a geographic environment that offers a defensible position, such as a cul-de-sac valley. Beyond that it seems some perimeter monitoring operations (24x7 with armed response) will be necessary, kind of a border guard patrol. The community may need its own police to enforce public safety. Then it will need its own ambulance service, hospital or medical specialists, and a fire brigade/department as well. All this is based on the supposition that existing such emergency services will be unavailable, either because they are crippled or they are over- burdened, or because the community is too remote. Otherwise a community can be served by the same municipal emergency services that are provided to all its neighboring communities. If the community is very remote that would be a more difficult scenario, because it probably would have to provide all its own services. Just as it is more efficient for a person to live in a community than in isolation, it's likewise more efficient for communities to live within a network of other communities. This allows for sharing resources and economic exchanges.
I also see some problems with the RW/bunker mentality. People need to interact or they get cabin fever and go nuts. However the bunker is a simplistic short-term solution to ride out any bad times and after the trouble dies down, people come out of the bomb shelter and carry on. But it's definitely not a long-term solution.
Self-sufficiency is never 100%, even astronauts on a space-walk are tethered by a supply chain dependency. The agrarian (food-growing) community does seem to be an optimal solution to the need for a support system. This allows for its members to have fresh produce, which is one of the first things to go if it gets bad. The low-tech path has relative independency from the machine world and the bureaucracy that operates it (all artificial systems). It doesn't rely on submicron chip fab technology and all the computer stuff, but if fuel is available on the open market and the farm has tractors, eventually they will become customers in the energy supply chain.
However I have a hard time seeing the collapse and elimination of 'modern' technology. Regardless of what happens on the surface of earth, there are numerous self-sufficient subterranean facilities that carry out all aspects of research, development and production of hardware systems and various other technologies. This technology can always be replicated. Knowledge (including technical know-how) is archived in great detail these days and technology always has the ability to be restored from backup.
The machine world has become a very significant presence in the evolution of human culture on earth. Technology has some self- propagating qualities and it has been a mostly upwards growth in its complexity and sophistication. Having a variety of commercial brands of technologies (products and services), competing for market share, is an evolutionary process driven by the engine of desire for financial gain. As contenders for disposable income, companies in the business world are familiar with the validity of 'survival of the fittest' and it goes without saying that some operations will fail. This has always been true on a continuous 24x7 basis (y2k or not). The point is, the commercial infrastructure is designed to withstand setbacks, likewise the evolutionary development of life on earth, the development of civilization, and the development of technology. Over the next few years the failure curve for suppliers of various energy, food, and other consumer products is obviously to rise. To say its all going to go away for good would need a good explanation.
For example I think the internet is here to stay, and so is tv, radio, and print media. DC units can be used for a failover power source when the grid has blackouts. No matter how bad it gets, there will be some communication, and communication leads to cooperation. Even if the infrastructure is shot, the importance of the communication link in rebuilding a cooperative system to overcome the tyranny of feudalism among fortified communities is shown in the movie The Postman.
The prospect of a sudden and unprecedented end to modern technology and along with it the infrastructure is a most interesting subject, but the all-or-nothing reasoning is hard to follow. Resources such as electricity, fuel, water, food, products and information, it seems to me will continue to have some (nonzero) availability, but at a higher cost.
"The point of the orig post was to alert people that in order to maintain a degree of civilized comfort in a back-to-nature community there are necessary infrastructure items to be acquired now, while they are easy and cheap and available. "
Thank you for the info. And if the money system itself goes down, it seems that there will still and always be activity in the marketplace, with scarcity the name of the game.
Are you also saying that the 'techno-slide-back' is not going to be followed by a techno-renaissance, high-tech is gone for good?
-- Jon (email@example.com), January 01, 1999.
Jon, I couldn't have said it better myself.
-- Bill (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 02, 1999.
Thank you Jon for the thoughtful post. When it comes to perception of depth of hit scenario, its duration and followthrough, that is a personal take, and I'm not defending mine, nor attacking any other's.
Bill, quit riding on someone else's coattails, you still haven't said anything that pertains, let alone, contributes anything positive to the thread.
-- Mitchell Barnes (email@example.com), January 02, 1999.
Ouch Mitchell that really hurts, NOT!
If you can't protect your new selfishly sufficent lifestyle from the hungery hoards, you will need a "Max" to do it for you. Please rewatch the "Seven Samuri" and see how the timid farmers lived in fear.
This back to nature crap will kill most of you. The pilgrams would have died of cold and hunger, if the Indians hadn't helped them. Drop your electric line now, get rid of your propane tank, sell your car and do me a favor, cancel your phone service. Good luck in your little house on the prarie dream life.
-- Bill (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 02, 1999.
Bill (email@example.com) trolled:
>If you can't protect your new selfishly sufficent lifestyle from the hungery hoards, you will need a "Max" to do it for you.
My, my, my. Now you attack me personally. I won't comment on your logic.
>This back to nature crap will kill most of you.
Only time will tell.
>The pilgrams would have died of cold and hunger, if the Indians hadn't helped them.
Hmmm. Your logic again, my goodness!
>Drop your electric line now, get rid of your propane tank, sell your car and do me a favor, cancel your phone service. Good luck in your little house on the prarie dream life.
Another personal attack. You are seemingly very bitter and angry.
-- Mitchell Barnes (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 03, 1999.
You bet I am bitter and angery. Wish this y2k crap wasn't going to happen, but know that it will. I like the system. I like shopping at Safeway. I have no illusions of how difficult the back to nature God's green acre lifestyle is. You think if you learn to plow,seed and harvest, you will survive. I say good luck. You may learn enough in the next 12 months to make it. Who will protect your garden? Why not start now (cut off the system:electric, telephone, propane, etc...)? This is the testing you need to do, if this is your chosen path.
Me, I would rather hope for the best (system survives and returns someday) and prepare for the worst (6-12 months of food, water, heat and a plan to protect it) If Safeway is still closed on 7/1/1999, the world as I know it is over. I don't want to live an Amish lifestyle, so I am not preparing for it.
-- Bill (email@example.com), January 03, 1999.