It may seem humorous to we who are truly omniverous, but how funny is spam to a Jew? High fat or salt to a heart patient? Peanuts and egg products to the allergy prone? Non-Diabetic diets? Milk to the lactose intolerant or meat to the vegetarian? There are REAL anger management problems associated with the prospect of feeding a diverse population accustomed to the accomodation of their needs and preferences. Short of actual starvation I do not forsee our pampered populace meekly, gratefully, and cooperatively accepting whatever food has been decided by someone else that they should be satisfied. I'm afraid "Have it your way" is too deeply ingrained.

-- Ann Fisher (zyax55b@prodigy.com), December 19, 1998

Answers

I'd like to say, That the only way, You'll have it 'your way', Come Y2K, Is if you put it away, Today! OK?

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie_Rimmer@usa.net), December 19, 1998.

Standard Government (FEMA) answer:

This ain't Burger King - You take my way or you don't get the S.O.B.

S.O.B.

-- sweetolebob (La) (buffgun@hotmail.com), December 19, 1998.

Most likely, you just show up with a bowl and a spoon and they ladle some gruel into it for you.

-- Jon (jonmiles@pacbell.net), December 19, 1998.

FEMA will probably have all the MCDs and BKs nationalized. So the only noticeable difference is that the food will be nutritious and actually taste better.

Oh, and you will also be able to collect all 10 John Koskinen action figures. (Limit one per visit).

Nathan :o)

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), December 19, 1998.

Priceless comment Nathan!

-- curtis schalek (schale1@ibm.net), December 19, 1998.

What makes you think FEMA will have any food to distribute? "Government cheese" only lasts so long. I know the feds stockpile some grain (wheat and corn), but their prefered method of distribution is good old food stamps. I look to FEMA to provide water. If anyone knows of huge hamburger helper stockpiling by the government, let us know.

-- Bill (bill@microsoft.com), December 19, 1998.

Hi Ann,

here's a simple experiment: First, eat no supper in the evening. go to bed hungry. Next morning dress warmly and take a canteen. Now without eating breakfast walk at least 20 miles in the cold (perhaps in falling snow or sleet as well). Now, still standing outside in the cold, (remember y2k occurs in January) consider the options of either going inside someplace warm and eating whatever you're given - even if it's spam on burnt toast with gravy from a powdered mix and instant potatoes, OR continuing to stand outside in the cold, going home unfed, and coming back the next day...remember those are your *only* two options. See how easy the decision becomes?

Arlin [who learned the army way that if you're tired enough and cold enough you will eat roast dog if that's what's on the menu....]

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 19, 1998.

That's right Arnie, so that takes care of the vegetarians and the Jews, they'll eat anything when the hunger pangs are strong enough. So we're left with special medical diets and alergies.

Did you have any doubts that some people would die due to Y2K Ann?

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), December 19, 1998.

I think you can forget about any animal products being made available in a FEMA food distribution scenario, or anywhere else for that matter.

-- Jon (jonmiles@pacbell.net), December 19, 1998.

not to worry Jon, a few simple wire snares and a person can generally come up with something edible...'course that's why I'm going to be in the country, where that something is more likely to be squirrel or rabbit than rat.

Arlin [who happens to be one of those folks whose body doesn't metabolize vegetable protein well at all]

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 19, 1998.

Arlin, I would recommend these digestive enzymes over all others (digestive enzymes allow you to make much more efficient use of the food you eat by helping to break it down into more useful building- block size parts):

Digestive Enzymes
http://www.celltech.com/FOD/900.html

A good long-term protein source is chlorella.
Chlorella
http://www.sunwellness.com/chlorfaq.html

While your hunting party is out collecting up little animals to eat, make sure you leave behind a contingent for the perimeter patrol duty to make sure no one cleans out your reserves. (just kidding....:))

-- Jon (jonmiles@pacbell.net), December 19, 1998.

In my experience as an ARC shelter person, we use area food warehouses for shelter feedings. We are also able to handle special diets, to a point. Kosher is dificult, veggie is a bit easier but, it may not be quite as balanced as the veggie is used to as th epreparers are typically not versed in the propper balance for veggies. diabetic is one which is reasonably easy for us to do but there will be SOME sugar in the foods and the diabetic will need to test a bit more often.

Chuck

-- Chuck a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), December 19, 1998.

Hi Jon,

I'm sorry I guess I should have been clearer. If I'd realized you were a vegetarian I wouldn't have made the snare suggestion - thought you were just worried about FEMA's lack of preparation...anyway sorry if you found the suggestion offensive. speaking for the folks I'm working with, none of us have any interest in becoming vegetarians, but thanks for the info anyway. To explain some of the things that weren't clear, just so you understand: 1. snares and traps are generally something children are taught to maintain. They don't really require a 'hunting party' per se, just a bright 12 year old with a .22 (in case something like a skunk got hung up in one of the traps). 2. animal protein requirements (as with all other requirements for living) are best handled through layering. That is, one raises some live stock (chickens, catfish, etc), and supplements that through barter, trapping, and hunting. 3. while people are indeed responsible for maintaining the security of their own property, overall security should always be a cooperative function within the community - the community is the perimeter, as it were.

I hope that's somewhat clearer, Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 20, 1998.

FEMA they will not be able to feed all the welfare people in the big citys then you have the dope takers - drunks laying in the streets young men and i use the word men just to describe their sex to feed who do not know what work is.The lines will be 20 miles long ! When they are told to get in line at the back women and children first the riot will break out the army will not stop this.The men in the army will be more worried about their family back home than feeding these people they will want to quit and go home the number of people in the army will fall. On Christmas and Thanksgiving when they feed these people they are usually male for every one of these there is a woman with children these men are eating the food and demand to be taken care of while these other needy are doing without. I have seen them complain because their was no salt and pepper shaker within reach they refuse to do for themselves. They will demand to be in the front of the line because they were first. Normal hard working people will not even be alowed to eat. Prepare to feed yourself do not depend on FEMA. Who will pay for these people to eat the goverment is broke maybe they will take your gold and silver that you have to pay for it.They will say that the gold and silver will be illegal for you to own. If you are caught using it you will eat at the local jail for free. Only the goverment can say what money is they will need taxes if a reward is posted to turn in these people with gold you will be caught when you barter. The next time you see these people on the street or tv remember you will save them with all your hard work and sweat that is invested in that gold.

-- Bubba (Badhabbit@water.com), December 20, 1998.

Arlin, thanks for elaborating, and no need for apology since I am neither vegetarian nor opposed to others being non-vegetarian. Although my diet is 90% non-meat, I do like cheese (but not milk) and eggs.

I learned about snares from reading Tom Brown's books (Tom Brown's Field Guide to Wilderness Survival and see The Way of the Scout thread) and have great respect for anyone who has mastered the art of earth-living to this level. However relying on small game does not seem to be a practical contingency plan for all but a very few properly trained and situated people. I am also not opposed to guns and hunting, but just wanted to point out the added hazards of "the most dangerous game": people tracking people. If someone were really desperate they could monitor the comings and goings from the remote wilderness domicile, and when the moment is opportune, they could drop out of a tree or show up from nowhere and disarm and disable you. The nutritional benefit of going after the dwindling population of animals has to be weighed against not only the time, skill, and effort required, but also (and perhaps more importantly) the risk of becoming prey oneself. Due to security concerns, it may not be advisable to send children out to check on the traps. And when out on the hunting expedition (and you are better off not going solo), home and community security is a very significant consideration, which has not received the attention it deserves. Anyone in a community that has a security plan, do please share.

Fresh water fish such as catfish is a great idea and chickens are good because the egg is a near-perfect food. But as for other livestock, such as cattle, I just don't see the future there when you consider it takes 2500 gallons to raise 1 pound of beef versus 25 gallons to raise 1 pound of wheat.

The other problems with trying to provide meat in an austere economy is the transport and storage cost (refrigeration) and above all the disease potential. If people are having to live on handouts you can be sure that a non-essential such as meat will not be part of it.

Meanwhile chlorella and other freshwater algae has countless health and practical benefits. One big problem with the vegetarian diet is getting all the amino acids. Chlorella has every one of the essential amino acids and is the exact same proportion as the human body requires! It also has a special ability to bind with toxins (including radioactive ones!) and bring them out of the tissues, through the lymph system and out of the body. Chlorella does not take up very much space and keeps indefinitely. It is 60% or so protein.

-- Jon (jonmiles@pacbell.net), December 20, 1998.

Jon,

I think we're pretty much on the same sheet of music. I will not be at all surprised if beef once again becomes food for the rich only...as you pointed out it's just NOT cost effective on a small scale. Fish, chicken, possibly the occaisional goose, goat or sheep which has reached the end of it's productive life (well there's always stew...), and the occaisional wild game or fowl.

the trapline scenario mentioned (ref to 12 year old checking) is within the context of one or more roving security patrols throughout the general area...even then, we will indeed have to closely monitor threat levels to determine safety. You're right though, it *is* amazing how many folks have no real idea about security issues in an unstable environment...have seen that in several different discussions.

having given it further thought, you're probably right about whatever it will be that fema will be providing for handouts. we plan on being nowhere near a major urban area, and avoiding government handouts at all costs, but I'd imagine it's gonna get pretty basic for folks who are stuck on the dole. One wonders what their caloric intake levels will be like - after all one of the easiest ways to control the population is to keep them undernourished.

Just my 2 cents' worth, Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 21, 1998.

Re: resources needed to raise cattle or other animals

Keep in mind that cattle, goats, or sheep can be raised, without any grain supplements, on grazing land that is uneconomical to use for other agricultural purposes.

My mother grew up on a cattle ranch in central Texas. The land there is rocky and rough, the climate is hot, and the natural vegetation all tends to have thorns, burrs, or hooks of some sort. A goodly proportion of the native animals are poisonous.

BUT cattle get along just fine because the grass is three feet tall, and they just chew right through the little hooks that the grass uses to hitchhike seeds on passersby. The cattle are bigger than all the poisonous critters and don't bother them anyway, and they just need a little assistance from the rancher in digging ponds or building water troughs fed by windmill. Grandpa, Grandma, and their kids raised a lot of big beef down there.

There's usually some final fattening-up done before slaughter by feeding cheap (often unsuitable for humans) grain to cattle, but that's not essential - it just improves the economics for the rancher.

-- No Spam Please (anon@ymous.com), December 21, 1998.

No Spam, in your experience, have you seen the industrialization of livestock-raising (the 4-footed ones) similar to what's happened with large-scale agribusiness (for crops) and the poultry growing/packaging industry (and is a return to small-scale local/low- tech farming an option)?

In addition to the concern about how people can be fussy with their food preferences as a panic factor, a bigger threat would be from alcoholics and druggies who can't obtain the required supplies. Talk about anger management problems. We already know what they can resort to in the face of scarcity, even with "normal" crime incidence and a functioning cop shop.

-- Jon (jonmiles@pacbell.net), December 21, 1998.

Jon,

No, I don't have experience with large-scale industrialized livestock-raising. My mother's family ranch never had more than a couple of hundred head AFAIK.

>(and is a return to small-scale local/low- tech farming an option)?

AFAIK it's an option for some people in some places. It won't support as high a standard of living, or as many people, as large-scale high-tech farming does in our current economic times.

- - - - - -

A point I wanted to make with my preceding posting is that not all agricultural land will support more people by growing crops than by growing animals. For some combinations of soil and climate, such as exist in many parts of Texas, cattle-raising is the most food-efficient use of the land and available water.

-- No Spam Please (anon@ymous.com), December 21, 1998.

ann, in the real world, here are the responses you will hear:

1. "beggars can't be choosers."

2. "you have 2 choices--you can take it, or you can leave it."

3. "suck it up."

4. "if you don't want your portion, can i have it?"

-- Jocelyne Slough (jonslough@tln.net), December 22, 1998.