Bunch of Bullshit

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

This is a bunch of bullshit. If everything I read reflects the degree to which there will be problems, we are screwed. How can anyone in their right mind expect this, or convince others of their conviction? Mind, you, I am 33, male, USA, & very *intellectual* (150 IQ). Philosophy major,(personal study). Come on people, we have to have a way to deal with this without the results Gary North, or Ed Yourdon are taking...don'tcha think? Aren't you all just a bunch of *cult* infected readers who really don't know what your talking about or thinking? I mean come on, people...life goes on. Please offer opinions to this *denial*, ok? I haven't got time (in my life ) to deal with [surviving] against radical criminals, who will kill for a meal...am I thinking incorrect? Who will control this out-of-control generation of people? What about the elderly? Enuf said...just chat back, please..thanx.

-- Randy (flembob@usa.net), December 14, 1998


You are suffering from what we call cognitive dissonance.....

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), December 14, 1998.

Thanx for the psychological examination..but um, excuse, me....screw cognitive dissonance. I want real answers. Where to go, who to know, what to own, how to use my time in this era...

-- Randy (flembob@usa.net), December 14, 1998.

We are not here to argue with you or try and convince you. We are here to help each other and exchange useful information. Many of us have many years experinece in D.P. and have seen so many near and actual disasters than we need no convincing. If you do not believe, do not worry. Time is short, you will soon enough.

-- curtis schalek (schale1@ibm.net), December 14, 1998.

Randy, for someone with an IQ of 150+ it must be room temperature at your computer terminal. Let me re-phrase that, below room temp., as in "the lights are out"...

You are a prime example of an enormous percentage of the population - your best bet would be to check out Peter Carmichaels' site at


Just to get you started.... "The Social psychology of Denial"

"In King Lear

the fool says "Only one in 20 can smell the one who stinks."What I am calling the "social cognition"about y2k is fascinating and distressing. By social cognition I mean the way society comes to know what is important for it.

The other day and I was riding on the Metroliner to New York and my seat mate was reading technical magazines from the media industry. I asked him if there was discussion among his colleagues of the year 2000 problem. " You mean that computer thing? I'm not interested in computers."He would have continued to read his magazine, but I persisted. "It looks like it's going to be quite a mass,"; I said. He looked at me quizzically, listening to me as I got rather impassioned, shook his head, and returned to reading, all these magazines about the technical aspects of television satellites, international coordination , the use of the Internet for multimedia purposes, and of course articles about Turner and Murdoch.

Computers are boring and people can feel that it's not their realm or not their business, but is that enough to account for the way we get brushed off by raising the y2k issue? Or is there more, much more to it? I am working on what I like to think of as a kind of social psychoanalysis: getting the story, following the thread, looking for awkwardness and anxt, in conversations about the issues.

On the ride back later that night my seat mate was a woman who is a high level executive in an insurance company. I asked her the same question. "We have a good team working on that and they tell me there is no problem. I am much more concerned with our Medicare and Medicaid policies. It's not an issue for us. Besides, our programs are so old and so filled with problems and inability to talk to each other that y2k (she used the word that way) couldn't make any difference. Maybe y2k will just help clear them out." That the systems are old and full of holes might make them more vulnerable to y2k and thus a threat to the company. What can account for her logic? Perhaps fatigue with the old systems and the childish delight that the damn things might just all fail. At the end of our conversation I felt that she was slightly perplexed, slightly excited, and slightly disturbed, but she will probably recover. Yet she will read new y2k articles with a little more attention.

Neither of these people asked me anything about why was concerned or what I knew.

Between those two train rides I had dinner in New York with the mother of a grade school classmate of mine. She is in her '80s and I have not noticed any change in her in 20 years. "So Douglass, what are you doing now?" I talked briefly about the new company Shakespeare and Tao and then said I had gotten very involved in the year 2000 problem. "You mean that thing about computers? They can fix that can't they?" I said that it looked to me like a mass and added three or four sentences about why." Douglass I am very upset by this. I can see it. The problems in the cities and people not knowing what to do. And you know I am angry. I am angry at my business friends for not telling me. And this is very bad housekeeping that they have been doing. I am sitting here thinking about what I must do, not to help you, because you are trying to help us and its everybody. Who shall I talk to among those I know? You know, I will stay up all night thinking about this." I have never talked to anyone who got it quicker then she did. Experience with the stock market crash and the depression, with World War II, with being an immigrant, having had a father in the movie business, her financial support for politicians, gave her that frame for seeing things that can be a threat to society and friends.

But I don't think these are enough to explain the differences. I believe people have come to rely on technology as an alternative world to the human: our bodies are much more a symbol added to technology and the underway around. The idea of that everything can be fixed is part of our deep belief. Conversation with a good friend clarified this for me. Our near total belief in things like money, gross national product, the sanctity of jobs, the free market, the invisible hand, can be seen, if we look at our society with the eye of an anthropologist, to be basically, fundamentally, profoundly religious. From this perspective we can say that we have been living in one of the great ages of faith in history. From our commuting, our coffee breaks, our mail-order catalogs, our insurance forms and the general pattern of daily live, we can say this is one of the most highly ritualized societies in history. To question all this by suggesting y2k makes a mess of it raises profound anxiety.

Perhaps at some level people know they have accommodated their life to this proposition and they sense that it might fail, that they have made a fundamental and brutal mistake. This realization could be touching on a profound core of rage towards both the authority and the self , towards the managers to whom they gave allegiance and towards the workers on whom they have been dependent.

And for those who gave jobs and consumption in exchange for power and technology, the fear that they might lose it -- the status, the market leading charisma, the sense that riding the bull market is just too much if it turns out to be the collapse of a civilization. People jumped out of windows in '29 (ha) for somewhat less.

There is some real confusion in all this. When the programmer is programming he or she is probably feeling that this is an abstract system of symbols mechanically interconnected. The logic is tight like the gears of o'clock. But a clock is read by a person who then acts. The computer program is connected directly to machines or markets, making "decisions". By taking the person out of the loop strange consequences follow. The simple kind of judgment, such as when it's important to put your foot on the break and override the highway cruising speed control , is missing. Because humans read clocks and then acted, the interaction between the machine and lived time was just intuitive and simple. But when we took the person out of the loop and let the computer talk directly to the machines, or to finances, we set in motion something rather odd which by calling it a "bug"; hides the reality of the sorcerer's apprentice confusion we have sown for ourselves. Fantasia Indeed. Bergson's concepts of time we dogmatically ignored, and we treated time like it was in fact the clock.

I will add just a few more remarks. I believe human beings have come to treat technology as the source of pleasure for their bodies and souls, and they have come to be suspicious of other humans as sources of pain and let down, or worse. The deep irony is that we have embraced cold technology while looking for the warmth of affection and security. In y2k, we might be touching on a great reservoir of betrayal and anger.

No great City is built without vision, no civilization without vision, shared among artists and engineers and businesspeople and statesman. But visions can go wrong. I have come to realize that it is not just that we have hooked the computer and the telephones and let them talk to each other. But that our experience is (unconscious and filled with wish) that we put the car and the telephone together and called it the monitor. The car, with its rapid control and view through the windshield, the vehicle that carries us through the American dream land, combines with the telephone and its extraordinary intimacy of being inside the head of the person with talk to. The computer is in some ways the driver's window, to the intimate conversation we can have by phone. We know that that the adds promise us love and perfection, justification and relief, and we know we can't have it by just buying stuff. But with the computer, our car, down the superhighway of the internet. By gods, this is good, we felt, we are free, and finding satisfaction. Little did we realize that, unlike Stephen Hawking who found a way out, we had become trapped in the same world he lives in, loss of body and speech, siting for hours at the screen, "interacting with the world."

We have fallen into private dreams and out of real relationships and communities more than we were aware. Like pilots flying in clouds, "up"is poorly defined by experience, so its important to watch the reality gauge, the one that shows the wings in relationship to the ground. But with technology we have not built in that gauge. We have got ourselves in trouble. We are disoriented.

The computer, connected to telephones has made many fortunes possible and improved in many ways that old ";standard of living"; of many of the people in society. It has made possible the internationalization of capital and the kind of rapid exploitation of world differences that has led to local indifferences. It created a kind of crazy ride that was getting us into trouble anyway. At some point this disjunction between the too rapidly extended technology with crucial life-threatening decisions being made on the basis of narrow short- term economic considerations was going to be torn by some set of facts from the underlying biological reality of individual and social life.

This is just a beginning of an adequate analysis of the issues behind the dynamics of denial and the emergence of anger in the face of fuzzily emerging y2k facts. Rethinking how to best use technology, and organize it for the market, and include creative governance, is part of the post y2k agenda."

You're not a manager by any chance are you Randy?

OK Randy, you've read this, have you had enuff fun yet? got your jollies? Sad.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), December 14, 1998.

Yo Randy, deep breath babe. I think you have to watch the language. They delete you if the don't like what you say and include profanity.. I could be wrong.

Yourdon is just trying to make a buck. The more hysteria the more jingles in his pocket. Doesn't make him a bad guy though and the effort is obviously there. North is a religious wacko with his own agenda. You can just throw him out. Kind of like the Russian judge in figure skating.

Doesn't hurt to have some supplies on hand in case of a suspension of whatever services you need.

Have a nice day and why is your IQ relevant

This board is a psycho magnet and a laff riot. If

-- Jimmy Bagga Doughnuts (jim1bets@worldnet.att.net), December 14, 1998.

ah, Invar, there you go being polite again...

Look Randy, let me try this in your terms: we've got a problem here - we ALL have a problem here, and it ain't exactly any more convenient for any of us than it is for you. Convenience is not the issue, reality is. Either people deal with it now and prepare, or deal with it 13 months from now and get shafted. But everybody WILL deal with it.

when you start asking who will do this or who will do that, go over to the mirror and have a good long look. The government isn't going to be pulling much of anybody's rear end out of the fire on this one - they're so far behind that come 01/01/00 they'll be lucky to be able to find their own rear ends with both hands.

A little thinking and you'll begin to realize that it's almost impossible to live reasonably well by yourself...a little more thinking and you'll also realize that it's impossible to defend yourself entirely by yourself - old military saying to the effect that everybody has to sleep sometime.

the fix: Find yourself a community where at least the majority of folks are preparing, become a contributing part of that community as you conduct your own preparations, and then hang on for a wild ride...

now, was that any clearer?

Arlin Adams

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 14, 1998.

Under the bridge troll alert. Under the bridge troll alert.

-- (k@k.k), December 14, 1998.

I'm not a manager, nor am I about getting my "jollies", whatever the hell that is. What I am is pissed, at having to deal with a problem that I didn't cause, create, or contribute to becoming a reality. And I'm the only one in MY family that even has internet access, outta 1 cousin, 2 aunts & uncles, my mom, my dad, my brother....now, where do I take this....what do "I" do? I have never dealt with anything of this magnitude, dunno that I can...but I have loved ones, they may not even believe any of this, if I tell them convincingly....so I am stuck to handle it alone? I feel alone..& ....whatever...I'm just at wits end. Sorry for the hostility, or ignorance, or any other "bad" emotion...ok?

-- Randy (flembob@usa.net), December 14, 1998.

I forgive you Randy. We've all felt the same. You're in the anger stage of your awakening, still mixed in with some denial. Normal reaction.

Welcome to the club. Leave your mansa card at the door, no need to brandish it around ;)

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), December 14, 1998.

Randy, If you gonna be here a while you might want to throtle that IQ back to double digits.

-- Jimmy Bagga Doughnuts (jim1bets@worldnet.att.net), December 14, 1998.

Hi Randy,

Fact: Accept Y2K will happen.

Fact: Accept neither you nor anyone else can solve all the problems.

Fact: You did not create the problem but you will still have to deal with the consequences as someone has said, so will the rest of us. Help the rest of us by being prepared yourself.

Fact: If you deal with your fear/anxiety/concern now and you will be able to help others.

Fact: Y2K has nothing, almost, to do with IQ. It has to do with acting in a common sense way in the face of the unknown.

Suggestion: Use your smarts to get the right books for you and apply your intellect to how to help the people you care about. They are unlikely to get it now but will thank you later.

Suggestion: Be kind to the people on the Forum.. collectively they know more about this problem than pretty well any other group I know.

Good Luck.

-- Bob Barbour (r.barbour@waikato.ac.nz), December 14, 1998.

NO one can tell YOU what to do. WE have neither the expertise nor the time. The most important thing you need to have is the deep awareness, not belief, but knowledge. Then, if you are as smart as you claim, your mind will almost instantly make all of the necessary connections and inferences, particularly those that pertain to you and your friends and relatives. At this point you may not be able to do all that you want, so you will have to do what you can. You must think first to secure your own safety and continued existence, else you will be of no use to others. You must be able to adapt mentally before you can adapt physically.

-- curtis schalek (schale1@ibm.net), December 14, 1998.

Hey, I agree. When it comes to Plato, Einstein, maths, philosiphy, I am intelligent, but when facing survival with "growing" food, bartering, using weapons, I am behind...isn't this typical of the American people generally? Sorry, guys, I was drinking & reading for the first day, & got really ticked off, that my next X-mas has to be non-existent, & that I dunno what to do after that...thanx for "humbling" me & letting me know, it's all of us...

-- Randy (flembob@usa.net), December 14, 1998.

That's "MENSA", Chris. :-)

Randy, scan the archives. We are talking about a systemic problem here, which means that it can impact us individually from any direction. Whatever direction you happen to face, look at your basic dependencies; heat, water, food, etc, and begin planning steps to minimize those dependencies.

BTW, I coulda joined mensa, but I wouldn't associate with a group that would have me as a member. (Groucho Marx?)

-- Elbow Grease (Elbow_Grease@AutoShop.com), December 14, 1998.


I think Chris read you well. We've all gone through the anger and it's an emotional roller coaster.

I'm sending you an email with info from the Cassandra Project that should help you get started in preparation.

Best of luck.

Mike ===================================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), December 14, 1998.


We are here for you, man. And we've all been in the panic you're experiencing. You can treat it - principally by preparing with food, water, etc. - but it never really goes away. You can turn away and be in denial, or you can stay in touch with the situation and prepare. Spend a little on basics, prepare for yourself. Then think about your extended family. My family's opinions range from "not a problem" to "bump in the road." But they are humoring me, for the most part. I'm preparing for a large group of people, with very little moral support (except for the fine folks on this forum). It's totally unfair, and crazy. Like WWs I & II. Like the depression. Like Hiroshima, or Dresden, or any of the other stupidities of our species - which are more or less constant and invariable. But you aren't responsible for that. Do not, repeat, Do not, try to "make sense" of it: that road leads to madness. You only have to deal with yourself and your situation. "Start where you are." Then, when you grasp the practical exigencies of the situation, help others do so, if you feel you must. Help yourself. Then help others, if that's what you want to do. Don't overwhelm yourself with worry. You're useless to your family and friends if you don't look after your self first. Take it a step at a time. But take some kind of step every day, if only planning and learning. If you are at all receptive to dealing with it, we'll be here. Because that's what we're all here for.

Think of it as a challenge. You are going to grow. If it doesn't kill you, it will make you stronger.

I think you are probably a smart, independent thinker - like most of us - and you wouldn't be so upset if you didn't Get It on a gut level already. I've learned a lot here, and you can too.

I hope this advice wasn't too condescending. It is what I have to tell myself every day, and I really hope it helps.


-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), December 14, 1998.

Mensa, right..I knew that ;)

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), December 14, 1998.

Hmmm, a bunch of degraders jumped on the IQ thing, but no one responded about the philosophy thing. Is anybody into philosophy, that would *geek* out the other responders? By the way, if I intimidated you with a 150 IQ, sorry. That isn't good enuff to survive a depression. Heck, I dunno what to do, with or without inteligence....does anyone?

-- Randy (flembob@usa.net), December 14, 1998.

Randy, I know what you mean. My IQ is 149, so I guess we're similar. And I felt pretty similar to you, when I came to realise what was going to happen.

I'm a capitalist. The first thought that came to my head was: "hey, I could make a shitload of money out of this!" About the thirtieth was "There's actually a chance I could die in this." 33rd or so: "There's actually a 90% chance or so that I could die in this!".

Either way, it's not nice. It's not nice to look at. It's scary to contemplate. That, I assume, is why most people DON'T contemplate it. And when you do..

I know exactly how you feel. Don't worry about what anyone else says. You may want to keep the swearing down a little here -people do swear, it's not black-ban or anything, but..you know.

Anyway, welcome to the forum.


-- Leo (leo_champion@hotmail.com), December 14, 1998.

Hi Randy,

Welcome to the mind-bending, heart-rending conundrum of y2k! I felt exactly like you do when I first learned about this mess. It takes awhile to come to grips with it all emotionally. But you're using the emotional energy in exactly the right way: feverishly looking for the most efficient way to get ready. Here's one of the most extensive ready-made lists of needed provisions I've found: http://www.y2klinks.net/Y2Ksupplies.htm. It will get you started. Don't be overwhelmed by it. Just recognize it as a resource and use it as a guide. Be sure to see Ed Yourdon's new site, too: http://www.y2klinks.net/Y2Ksupplies.htm. Our community site has a lot of links and resources, too, including some helpful books on preparation: http://www.ccia.com/~sminarik/prepare2000.htm/5.htm. You'll find many resources on the net once you begin surfing the y2k links. But those three sites will give you a solid start. For a perspective that will help you get your balance and provide positive ideas about actions you can take to help others in your community, please visit http://www.co-intelligence.org/Y2K.html. To find other y2k-concerned folks in your area, register at http://www.webpal.org/Registry.htm. You'll be sent the email addresses of others in your area on a monthly basis. One personal suggestion. Go out and buy something, anythinga bag of beans, a package of toilet paperthat's intended as the start of your preparations. Taking the first action step has a big impact psychologically; it makes the situation all much more real for you, and it provides you with some assurance that you're actually doing something about , that you're committed to meeting the challenge. You have already found one of, if not THE, premiere y2k forums on the Net. Keep coming back, and join in the discussion. We'll welcome your perspective and share ours, and you'll find, as we have, that you're not alone in this. A lot of good heads and hearts are working hard here at coping with these incredible y2k uncertainties. You can let off steam and find a laugh, and get leads to good info and find some thought-provoking ideas. And don't worry, we won't hold your initial panic against you; we all know the standard initial response to perception is "Oh, Sh*t!" Besides, you picked up on the ground-rules quickly. We'll enjoy having you around.

-- Faith Weaver (faith-weaver@usa.net), December 14, 1998.

*whew* I feel distinctly outclassed by some of the other responses - sorry about the sarcasm in my initial response, Randy, but I wasn't sure whether or not you were for real.

One other suggestion I'd add to all of the good advice the others have given you is: don't worry about doing everything all at once. As you explore the y2k preparation issue on the net you're going to run into folks who have (or at least give the appearance of having) unlimited resources and unlimited time. They're the Martha Stewarts of y2k...and by the Grace of God we don't have any of them around here.

The folks you'll meet on this forum are just looking to do the best we can, each according to what he/she understands to be his/her preparation goals (and boy oh boy do we have some diverse understandings!)...we all have budgets, other folks to whom and for whom we are responsible, other commitments on our time, and so on.

The important thing is to keep learning, keep preparing, and keep motivated...which, really are the three reasons most of us hang out here.

just my 2 cents' worth, Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 14, 1998.

Randy, just stick around and browse through the threads. You'll soon find out that there's plenty of people with your IQ and above on here. Everything is discussed, from philosophy to gardening, psychology to embedded chips, politics to sewing. All relating to Y2K in some way. Scroll down to "Archives" and start there. There's a wealth of information, and real good threads to help you deal with your anxiety and panic we all felt, and still feel to some extent. Also, I suggest you click and read the "What about you" threads listed below; they are about who the people on this forum are. You'll be amazed by some of the people's credentials, as well as the great diversity of backgrounds and knowledge.

What about you?

What about you? (third incarnation)

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), December 14, 1998.


How well I remember those feelings of anger and rage when I finally realized that Y2k was a real problem and was really going to happen no matter what!

My husband and I did massive amounts of research on the subject and the more we read, the more we knew it was real. Then we got paranoid; then we got sad; then we got frantic...etc. etc. etc.

Then I decided to do a web site about Y2k. That helped. Just doing all the research required to build such a site heightened my awareness and knowledge on the subject. Somehow it made me feel better to know that I was doing something to help others to learn about it.

I think I have experienced every emotion there is in the last several months!

Once we started in our own personal preparations; that in itself calmed our fears and anxieties. Once I started accumulating a stash of needed items, and learning skills, etc, I felt better. It gets better every day. I still have those flashes of total mind-boggling fear, but it isn't as numbing now as it was in the beginning. Really.

So, I recommend that you study everything you can find about it, and once you accept that it's really real (and you will be), then begin to prepare yourself and your family. Taking action is the best medicine for this bug, imho.

You can visit my web site too. I have quite a large collection of links and info there. It's a purely informational site (I am not selling anything). I do have a vendor page of other sites where you can go if you are looking to buy things though (no, I don't get a finder's fee). I feel it's one of the few things I can actually do to help people learn about Y2k. It's like my contribution to the community effort. That's how I look at it anyway. :-)

Soon, hopefully within the next couple of days, I will have Steve Hartsman's powerpoint slide show online there too. It's a very very good presentation, especially for newbies. I am just awaiting his final okay before I unveil it. :-) I will post to the forum once it's up and running. I heartily recommend it for everyone, but it is expecially eye-opening for those who have just become Y2k-aware.

Good luck and keep on keepin' on,

Bobbi Check out the newly revamped Y2k information site! http://www.buzzbyte.com/

-- Bobbi (volfnat@northweb.com), December 14, 1998.

I can't believe this whole mess. After reading various responses the two things I have found are that: 1. There are no experts. 2. that most of you are swayed by any arguement in the matter of a few responses.(randy and arnie on the nuke plant issue) You all need to spend time researching, and getting your facts straight. The so called sheep are actually those of you who are jumping on this doomsday bandwagon of cultists because gary north or yourdon tells you to. Are these people giving information or is there a price tag on it? I guarantee that he's not trading for beans and rice or gold bullion. (or maybe there are plans for using cash to start a fire) The bank runs stock market crashes etc. will probably happen due to the simple fact that you all are scaring people into making this a reality. The real y2k winners are the companies that you are buying your supplies from.

outta here

-- get real (What@crock.!), December 14, 1998.

ROFLMAO! 150 only if you multiply by 3.14! Go away troll.

-- RD. ->H (drherr@erols.com), December 14, 1998.

Hey people this troglodyte Randy is a troll (and a pretty bad one too) - wise up everyone! - if you are new to this game a troll lurks "under bridges" (just figures of speech) and impersonates people, usually making assinine comments to get people flaming (fighting) each other, or alternatively posts something equally outrageous to achive the same effect.

On the plus side a lot of you have posted valuable advice for panic stricken newbies so it's not a completely wasted excercise :)

This situation is not going to get any better forum moderator, maybe we should have a password??? Can we hack the toe-rag and send the boys 'round??? I volunteer to go in first with my "remediation" code :)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), December 14, 1998.


Don't worry, be happy. You are smart, white and on top of the world right now. Y2K is BS. That's why companies are spending billions (trillions?) to fix this non-existent problem. No one argument will convince you (you have an answer for everything). Spend hours reading past posts, talk to your computer "geek" friends, wake up in a cold sweat a few times.... Then go buy your first gun, a 50 lb. bag of rice, a couple of cords of firewood .... Think Amish (or Road Warrior) Welcome to our nightmare.

-- Bill (bill@microsoft.com), December 14, 1998.

Andy, you picked up on that too? His fourth response gave him away. Although, I felt that way 10 months ago, you eventually, walk the road to acceptance. Acceptance is the key to all my problems today.


-- flierdude (mkessler0101@sprynet.com), December 14, 1998.


-- epigone (cc@pizza.com), December 15, 1998.

Heeeeere we gooooo again with someone quoting their IQ. Am I impressed? no!! How do I know you have an IQ of 150? Is there someone walking around with a microphone all day quoting you to test your intellect? Well, I can say that my IQ is rather far above yours to see right through your inadequacies and uncommon babble. I live in an area where the people aren't so book educated, but they will far out live you and your IQ of 150. I think you give yourself far too much credit. Start learning the IQ of street smarts and then come back and see us.

-- In Quotes (InQuotes@Mensa.com), December 15, 1998.

Hi there, "get real" --

You may be right. You may be wrong. If you don't care which, neither do I.

"Men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all the other alternatives." (Abba Eban)

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), December 15, 1998.

BS huh? Check out a thread inthe archives that gives a link to your power or gas company entitled something like" get the dirt on your power co here".

Read the weasel words the lawyers have included. Read the contingencies they include in their attempts to say "Don't worry, be happy, we'll be done on time". And then see if you don't look at the bulk rice pallet at Sam's a bit differently.

You CAN research for your self, and do not need ANYONE telling you how to think. When you have come to your senses, we'll be happy to assist you in your preparations, Physical, Mental and (dare I say) Spiritual.


-- Chuck a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), December 15, 1998.

Elbow Grease:

I think your quote was made by Woody Allen, not Groucho Marx.


Get your act together first. Get through the anger and denial and fear (quickly, you have no choice), and then prepare. As for your family, be persistent. It will pay dividends in the end, hopefully. They will ultimately be responsible for themselves, for better or for worse.

-- Steve Hartsman (hartsman@ticon.net), December 15, 1998.

I live in an area where the people aren't so book educated, but they will far out live you and your IQ of 150. I think you give yourself far too much credit. Start learning the IQ of street smarts and then come back and see us.

Where Where!

I shudder when I hear people talking about Street Cred, does that mean you can deal in drugs, spot a mugger, not get fleeced, fleece others, avoid a drug dealer, form a gang, form a vigilante group, purchase a subway ticket, get away with not doing so. Where is this gift of longevity. Anyway be interested how you fare on the Stanford-Binet test. Find out for yourself, don't tell the rest of us.

-- Richard Dale (rdale@figroup.co.uk), December 15, 1998.

Some people are educated beyond their intelligence. We are just mear mortales just trying to understand what might happen. If a person has a high enough IQ to brag about their ego time for you to go and create your own website leave this site please if not listen to other people and you might increase your IQ on the ability to survive if not i am sorry for people like you because you may not make it into a brave new world that may come to pass . If you awake from your sleep and open your eye and ears and i hope that you do maybe you wont step in the bullshit in front of you.

-- Steve Bell (JVin470924@aol.com), December 15, 1998.

I'm just wondering for those of you that are intelligent beyond the norm, why are you even asking about how we should deal with "this out-of-control generation?" Don't you have the answer? I thought all intellectuals answered their own questions.

-- RAH (RAH@jet.com), December 15, 1998.

You have to be alert enough to find out there is a hidden, worldwide problem embedded in the connections between systems that now aren't exhibiting many symptoms. You have to be determined enough to look past the easy rationalizations to "get it". then you have to be smart enough to realize it will affect "you". then you have to be even smarter to realize you don't have all the answers, and may not even know all the questions. So you have to be outgoing enough to go out and to ask the right questions first. Then humble enough to listen to the answers.

Few ivory tower "intellectuals" do all the above. But evidently 80 year grandmothers can and do all the above. Bravo for her.

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), December 15, 1998.

"Miss Taggart, do you know the hallmark of the second-rater? It's resentment of another man's achievement. Those touchy mediocrities who sit trembling lest someone's work prove greater than their own - they have no inkling of the loneliness that comes when you reach the top. The loneliness for an equal - for a mind to respect and an achievement to admire. They bare their teeth at you from out of their rat holes, thinking that you take pleasure in letting your brilliance dim them - while you'd give a year of your life to see a flicker of talent anywhere among them. They envy achievement, and their dream of greatness is a world where all men have become their acknowledged inferiors. They don't know that that dream is the infallible proof of mediocrity, because that sort of world is what the man of achievement would not be able to bear. They have no way of knowing what he feels when surrounded by inferiors - hatred? no, not hatred, but boredom - the terrible, hopeless, draining, paralyzing boredom. Of what account are praise and adulation from men whom you don't respect? Have you ever felt the longing for someone you could admire? For something, not to look down at, but up to?"

Excerpt from "Atlas Shrugged"

-- Ayn Rand Fan (AynRandFan@booksRus.com), December 15, 1998.

"Have you ever felt the longing for someone you could admire? For something, not to look down at,but up to?" Excerpt from "Atlas Shrugged"

I think I'm going to be sick. It's that same feeling I got 35 years ago upon having read "Atlas Shrugged" for the first time. After hearing it recommended by forum contributors here and elsewhere, I tried to read it again. No luck. My stomach is just not strong enough to handle ego-centric, demeaning, pseudo-intellectual, selfish....Ms Rand must have been over-compensating for a severe inferiority complex.

Anyone who remembers their IQ must be young enough to recently have take the test--too young to have acquired much wisdom.

"I'd never join a club that would have me as a member." A genuine Groucho line, Steve. Woody was never that droll.


"I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me."--- Fred Allen

-- Hallyx (Hallyx@aol.com), December 15, 1998.


Loved every word you wrote! Read Atlas Shrugged 20+ years ago. The concepts are inspired and prophetic, but the dialog and personalities suck big time. Slogging through John Galt's broadcast will indeed make one sick.

And thanks for the real Groucho quote.

-- Elbow Grease (Elbow_Grease@AutoShop.com), December 15, 1998.


That quote ("I would never want to be a member of any group that would have someone like me for a member") was at the beginning of Woody Allen's "Annie Hall," but in the movie he attributes the origin of it to Groucho Marx.

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), December 16, 1998.


Don't you just love how these people jump all over about spelling errors, misquoting, etc. It's pathetic and reminds me of a bunch of little kids. Na na na boo boo, I know more than you do!!

I'd rather deal with the looters than this bunch of simpletons.

Higher IQ

-- Higher IQ (problemchild@usa.net), December 16, 1998.

Steve etc what is this personal vendetta against people with a high IQ, I suppose you would also hate Franklin, Einstein, Da Vinci etc etc. I'm not saying that all high IQers would contribute to such a high level, but intelligence is the only thing that differentiates us (not you) from the primeval sludge. Hey got nothing against people from the sludge end of town.

-- Richard Dale (rdale@figroup.co.uk), December 16, 1998.

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