Not intending to offend, nor god forbid advocate, only interested in differing viewpoints:

"Women's Liberation was dead one minute after HammerFall" -Lucifer's Hammer

Note the "y2k for women" site does not dig this deep.

-RC

-- runway cat (runway_cat@hotmail.com), December 06, 1998

Answers

ALL women and men will be challenged by this experience. Some will rise to the occasion. Some will not.

Some of the sheeple will be herded. Some will lead. Some will be lost.

Great women will realize their potential through this experience. This is to say "I disagree" with Lucifer on this one...

-- Sara Nealy (saran@ptd.net), December 06, 1998.

remember LH was written in, what 197? ? (Like maybe 74ish) LOTS of things have changed, and a lot has been re-programmed. Many of us enlightened males have found out that without our spouses we aren't quite as great asa we used to think.

which comes to the Promise Keepers sort of thing. I can tell anyone who believes that "Christian submission = servitude" is so wrong. My wife and I have an understanding that runs something like this "I make the large decisions, usually doing what she thinks is best. Except she works it so I think it's ALL my decision." What can I say, she met my Italian father while he had his faculties, and she met my Dutch mom. She has figured out that submission is truly empowering. I know that when I NEED to go a particular way, I AM in charge, (I have told her once or twice (truly only 2 or 3 times) that she could NOT do something, in the appropriate tone of voice and the answer was NOT "WHY" but WAS "Ok."

cr

-- Chuck a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), December 06, 1998.

You tell 'em Chuck!

Poeple have been re-programmed indeed, and I made sure my daughter was bug-free, and I almost have my husband completely compliant. Multiply that by the population of my generation and below with all it's interconnectedness, and you can see it's rock solid to last at least 1000 years.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), December 06, 1998.

Runway Cat, you have hit on one of my greatest fears. In times of crisis, it is always the weak who suffer most--women, children and aged. The more things change, the more they remain the same.

-- Lois Knorr (knorr@attcanada.net), December 07, 1998.

It was the women who survived the Donner Party catastrophe.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), December 07, 1998.

I don't think so.

Women have, in their time of "liberation", proved to themselves and most men that they are smart and capable of doing everything that men can.

The only reason men may establish dominance (not total subjugation by force) is because men seem to be better at violence than women. More eager to pull the trigger. Less willing to talk. Not all men; not all women, but IMO considerable majorities. In a world of violence, this could be important.

--Leo

-- Leo (leo_champion@hotmail.com), December 07, 1998.

LEO:

You clearly have not had teh pleasure of a knock down, drag out fight with an angry woman who truly wants your hide, preferrably tacked to the wall behind her.

I know a number of police officers and prison guards (DON'T ask) and the women are each far and away the more blood thirsty in their group.

chuck

-- Chuck a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), December 07, 1998.

Oh I thought you meant it was a prison sentence or something.

-- Richard Dale (rdale@figroup.co.uk), December 07, 1998.

Chuck, I agree with you. The Viet Nam war was a good example of how ruthless women can be. The Vietnamese women fought just as boldly as the men. I also know a female cop who shot a robber. Her male partner couldn't pull the trigger.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), December 07, 1998.

I can't see the LH version of women turning into drudges as a future reality. While reading the book this past summer, I found myself wondering about the author(s) and why they thought that way. Sure, women were nothing but chattle in many cultures, but in many, many more they were not.

I rather prefer to believe that (at least here in our corner of the world) neither women nor men would want to make the other half of the species into drudges. I think we'll all be needing partners.

Besides, my mom said I should never allow a man to strike me, and none ever have, or even attempted to. She said it's a matter of attitude, and what you are willing to accept as treatment. I wonder if such fine points will still apply....

-- Arewyn (nordic@northnet.net), December 07, 1998.

uh, RC, one might point out that something like 80 percent of the audience of sciencefiction books is male, ever think that the whole LH women's roles thing could have been simply a marketting decision?

Arlin Adams

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 07, 1998.

Good point Arlin.

Leo you said, "The only reason men may establish dominance (not total subjugation by force) is because men seem to be better at violence than women. More eager to pull the trigger."

I agree to one extent. In normal conditions, everyday life, women preach non-violence, it's because it's more amenable to progress and wellbeing of society, and yes we have the gift of the gab relative to men. But not in extreme conditions. Women in general have more endurance and guts for survival. Whatever it takes. Add a child in the equasion and you've got a real bitch. Pardon my bluntness, it's to drive home the point ;)

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), December 07, 1998.

y'know Chris, I was gonna make that point, but I chickened out - thanks for making it for me. That happens to be a major teaching point I use in teaching women defensive use of firearms. With guys one teaches from the perspective of *self* defense, whereas with women I generally start the discussion from the perspective of protecting their children or younger relatives. A woman who would not use lethal force to defend herself will drop the hammer in a minute if she thinks her child is threatened...

BTW women are also substantially easier to teach to shoot, as a general rule - they don't automaticly assume that they're going to be natural born experts as soon as they pick up a firearm, and so they actually pay attention to proper technique.

Arlin Adams [who, among other things, is doing his part to insure that at least a few women will have the tools and skills to defend themselves and their loved ones, should that become neccessary.]

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 07, 1998.