In all seriousness, what do you think the chances of actually coming under attack by bandits or whatever are? If you were out of the city, in a modest farm, you've got your generator and maybe your well..you're not right on the freeway, how bad do you think the threat is? Also, where would be best to relocate: the country or the desert?

Pros of country: Far easier to raise food, the land is actually usable Neighbours you can be friendly with, part of a community.

Cons of country: Land prices can be damn high Neighbours might not be so friendly, if you're prepared and they're not

Pros of desert: Land is dirt cheap Isolated from raiders and other unpleasant people

Cons of desert: If you want to farm something, you've got to bring in your own dirt (which can be done, I guess, but at cost) Water requires a well, which probably requires power

Does anyone have information on how much wells cost? Oil wells don't need pumping, from what I've read- the pressure does it. Is this the same with water wells? (probably not, I gather). What about farming? What would a couple of tons of good dirt cost? Is this idea of mine (build large, flat flowerpots in the desert. Fill with dirt to maybe six or ten inches. Grow stuff in them) any good, or is it just another wild and crazy concept? Oh, and with guns: Is there any big difference in quality between a $200 shotgun and a $800 one? Or is it just a few yards of extra range, or a 10% shorter reload time or something like that? --Leo

-- Leo (leo_champion@hotmail.com), December 05, 1998

Answers

Leo- i don't know much about costs for wells. There is quite a bit of rural country property here in us to be had for quite cheap. don't know about where you are in australia. Desert can be farmed somewhat. But just like all areas with extreme climates, the types and varieties are somewhat limited. If really interested in this subject, it might be best to check out what the indigenous desert dwellers grow- and the procedures. Mostly what grows well is beans, squash, corn. Most other things take too much water, good soil, or less extreme temperatures. But, desert dwellers did ok for centuries, so, might be something you could do?

-- Damian Solorzano (oggy1@webtv.net), December 05, 1998.

Get a Mossberg 500 Mil-Spec for $240 and be done with it.

-- Tom Sawyer (tomsawyer@fence.net), December 05, 1998.

Buy or borrow a copy of "Permaculture - A Designer's Manual" by Bill Mollison, Tagari Publications. A$65 here in Oz. They have a whole section on desert farming, with ingenious tricks like pouring water into unglazed pots buried in the soil - so the water seeps out and waters the plants you grow right next to the pots. Mollison says desert "soil" is very fertile as long as you can water it and minimise evaporation. The book is full of desert techniques gleaned from all different countries and climates. Other ideas include using desert stills to water your trees, sheets of plastic under the sand to prevent moisture from sinking too deep below your plants, etc. Yes, I am an unabashed convert to Permaculture (Permanent organic Agriculture).

-- David Harvey (vk2dmh@hotmail.com), December 05, 1998.

Still asking complicated questions,huh,Leo? The chance of marauders is going to be dependent on how bad it goes down and for how long as well as how far you are from major cities and highways.

The climate depends on what your body is acclimated for.Can you take the heat? Phoenix goes to 105- 115 in the summer, so the deserts would be even hotter unless you're planning on higher elevations.

Well drilling is usually charged by the foot they drill.Don't know how far you'd have to drill in the desert. In the midwest we went 200 feet and yet just a few miles away could pound down our own at just 20 feet.This holds true for parts of Florida too.So it really is variable.

Shotguns are pretty much standard, would go for several of the same kind. Rifles- better brands have less chance of jamming if they are semi -automatics. Handguns-revolvers jam the least and semi- auto's will jam less depending on the quality(brand) of the gun.

Shallow wells will work with just a hand pump. Deep wells you would probably need a generator.JMHO

-- y2klady2 (y2klady2@aol.com), December 05, 1998.

IF your well is not to deep use a rope and a bucket it is good for the back as for the shotgun buy the best that you can along with lots of shells a 12gage is good . A short barrel for close up and a long barrel for long distance remenber to buy a shotgun that can use different lengths maby an 18 and a 22 inch or longer take out the plug so you can add a couple of extra shells if you dont know how ask someone who knows. Practice loading and shooting dont wait till the last minute to learn. Buy a ammo belt to carry your shells with you one that holds 25 rounds should do. GOOD LUCK Leo

-- Steve Bell (JVin470924@aol.com), December 05, 1998.

Shotguns: use 00 buck or slugs for social work. Don't need magnum (unless you are a swat entry team member needing to shoot through locks) Watch out: buck will spread about 1" per yard, depending on choke. After 15 yards, somebody or something besides your target will likely be hit. Slugs (.75 cal) can penetrate many layers of sheetrock and plywood - watch your neighbors. Shotguns lack range - their main advantages are: - more range than handgun - much better accuracy at short range than handgun for semi-trained people "point and shoot" - pyschological deterent - specialized loads (but don't bother looking for non-lethal loads, the weapon is inherently lethal, accept that or drop the project.

Some people hate 12 ga recoil, I enjoy it, though I'm not large frame. For some small people, a 20 gauge is a better choice. Almost as effective stopping power, much less recoil. Small people can shoot a 12 ga with stock tucked tight up into armpit, index with body for aiming. For sighted shooting, tuck stock into the edge of the chest, don't have the butt directly agianst your shoulder. Keep a tight cheek weld (cheek to stock). Don't be scared of your own gun, and it won't hurt you. Otherwise, you can get a bloody nose with a 12 ga. Pistol grip on rifle stock gives better shooting accuracy, but is inferior in a retention situation. True pistol-grip-only shotguns are uselelss as sighted fire is impossible. Barrel longer than 20" is harder to maneuver for in-home defense situation. Shotguns aren't easy to retain unless you know what you are doing. If you don't, just drop to one knee and fire upwards as they come on you.

Skeet shooting is NOT realistic training for combat shotgun. Light loads, off the shoulder, narrow stance, its all wrong. Train for combat. Remember, most shotguns are NOT drop safe. They safety's are trigger-safety's only. Be careful.

Pump is cheaper and very reliable. Autoload is faster, and can still be used if one hand down. Auto can fire slugs almost as fast as a machine gun. Benelli is best autoloader, but kicks like hell.

For long range work, the rifle, in .308, is king.

-RC

-- runway cat (runway_cat@hotmail.com), December 05, 1998.

a couple of thoughts here: 1. A few complete paranoids may attempt to defend their homesteads by themselves, but the more effective (and less stressful) method is to set up some sort of mutual defense / protection agreement with surrounding neighbors. Yeah, there will always be problems, and the change for misunderstandings, etc, but as has been pointed out on more than one occaision in this forum, one of the primary survival tools in almost any environment is the basic ability to negotiate with others.

2. if two people have eqivalent training, one armed with a rifle, the other with a shotgun, as long as the rifleman stays at least 100 to 150 yards from the the shotgunner, the rifleman wins almost every time. Now that's a generalization, and someone with a really spiffy shotgun with really spiffy ammo may well be able to do better than that, but the reality is that in an average situation the rifleman will come out ahead.

3. having lived in the desert (southern Arizona - down near Tombstone) I can tell you that at least in that part of the country we had real problems with alkalai, and EVERYTHING including the water was alkaline - the surface soil in my yard had a ph factor of 11! A few inches of soil under those conditions would only last a few months before the alkali would leach up from below...couldn't say about other deserts though.

Arlin Adams

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 05, 1998.

At one time (1952) I spent a few weeks on a cotton ranch near Buckeye, Arizona. This was desert country for sure, the only greenery was paloverde, greasewood and cactus. Cotton needs a lot of water. The ranch had two wells for irrigation, each 800 feet deep. One was 18" bore, the other 14". Industrial grade pumping stations. AND -- the water was too salty to drink. The drilling cost about $100 / ft., I was told.

Some water dowsers can pinpoint a fresh water well 20 feet away from a salt water pool. Only the best, though. Unless you're near a creek, there won't likely be any water in the first fifty feet.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), December 05, 1998.