I'm not a great scholar of the bible. In our house tonight, I was reviewing some Bible passages always referenced at the end of the W2k Weatherman' email: Ezkiel 3,17; 1 Timothy 5,8; Romans 8,28. My wife was paying attention and read Psalms 11 to me. It struck us both. Particulary, the first verse:

"In the Lord I take refuge; how can you say to me, 'Flee like a bird to the mountains'."

Then to follow. If you choose not to run, but to defend, and let God be the judge....then when friends and neighbors become enemies (because they failed to hear our words of warning), how abhorrent could it possibly be for us to have to draw down on them with front and rear gun sights aligned? And all in the name of individual survival?

I hope this posting evokes many responses. You all may be correct, in your own fashion! Let it all out! This one bothers us to no end!

-- Bob Walton (waltonb@kdsi.net), December 04, 1998

Answers

Psalm 137, v8-9

O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

__________________________________________

Depressing, isn't it.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), December 05, 1998.

Hey bob.

Your braver than I, last time I posted a referance to God and his word, this forum got reeal mmmean.

Anyhow, I think that it is possible that that Paul is right. This could very well referance the downfall of babylon in Rev.

I think that it is funny that a world which has made tech. its god will suffer at its hands. The word also says in Psalms 2

Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing?

The Kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsil together, against the Lord and against his Anointed saying,

Let us break their bands assunder, and cast away their cords from us.

He that sits in Heaven shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Now I expect to be flamed for the above quote. Yet the truth is that this world has totally rejected Godly principles like Love your neighbor as yourself. I expect that this rejection of Mans will result in civil strife when their God of technology falls.

Babylon will fall, its been fortold. So it is written, so it shall be. ww

-- WAYNE WITCHER (WWITCHER@MVTEL.NET), December 05, 1998.

It also says in the bible when you see the abomination of desolation to not turn back but to head to the mountains/hills.

-- more dinty moore (not@this time.com), December 05, 1998.

And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack for anything?" So they said "Nothing". Then He said to them, "But he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."

Luke 22:35-36

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 05, 1998.

So, Arlin,...you've sold all your worldly goods?

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), December 05, 1998.

I mean...except for a sword?

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), December 05, 1998.

Hi Donna,

as a matter of fact, I live at the poverty level, on a small disability pension. I have very few worldly goods, and since I'm allowed to take my sword (modern equivalent), my moneybag (i.e. neccessary travel expenses) and my knapsack (those worldly goods needed for the trip) along with me as well, yeah, I'm pretty much within parameters. The only exception would be one year of basic grain and beans which have been delivered to some folks to hold onto for me - if I don't get there, then they can use them for themselves.

In other words, I'm very far from perfect, but I really do try to practice what I preach...

Arlin Adams

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 05, 1998.

What? Me Worry? Alfred E. Neuman.

-- MVI (vtoc@aol.com), December 05, 1998.

Great responses! It is on our minds, isn't it? In a more worldly vain:

Paul Davis, it is depressing. Particularly, since we can't predict the outcome.

WW, no flaming responses, this time. Isn't it great?

dinty moore, we may need lots of cans of your namesake product.

Arlin, you'll 'get there'.

Alfred E. Neuman(MVI), you may have the most psychologically calming advice after all. Wasn't it Bobby Mcferrin who immortalized Alfred in the song, "Don't Worry, Be Happy"?

(The old baseball pitcher Satchel Paige may be closer to the truth with his quote: "Don't look back, somethin' might be gainin' on ya".)

Donna B., the context of my original post was sort of contemplating that we may just need to keep a worldly possession or two, something manufactured by the likes of Colt or Ruger. As an ex G.I., I believe I could use a weapon in defense of my family if I had to, but against neighbors? I really don't know. Total strangers, perhaps. Ugh! I guess all of this soul searching means we aren't really done with the Paul Revere effort until all our neighbors have been converted and will remain friends throughout.

Anyway, friends, keep the faith!

-- Bob Walton (waltonb@kdsi.net), December 06, 1998.

The whole of what we call the "Old Testament" was written to, and applicable to only Israel. It had instructions for Israel and prophetic words for Israel.

Taken out of the context in which it was written (which seems to be the norm unfortunately), you can conclude anything you want to from it.

For example, the verse quoted above "When you see the abomination of desolation to not turn back but to head to the mountains/hills..."

This verse is clearly speaking only to the residents of Jerusalem. The fulfillment of this verse happened in the year AD70. It was a prophecy about the Romans attacking Jerusalem and destroying the temple completely. History shows that those who fled the city lived, whilst those that waited too long or came back for their possesssions were brutally murdered. This verse has nothing whatsoever to do with Cleveland or Denver or Liverpool.

Israel of old were under the law. We are no longer under the law. If you wish to live under the law of Israel, go ahead, you are free to do so. Just do it right if you're going to do it at all. The law requires you to kill your rebellious children (in Deuteronomy). The law forbids you from doing any work at all on the Sabbath (Friday at Sundown until Saturday at sundown). The law is not just the ten commandments. Ask any Orthodox Jew and he will tell you that the law encompasses over 600 rules, some religious and some ceremonial. However, to keep the law you must obey every one of them.

Sorry for the length of this. I just want to make one point perfectly clear. Quoting verses here and there from the old testament with no regards for context or the intended audience proves nothing. Sure, there are principles that are valuable when interpreted properly. However, the old testament or even the new testament, have nothing to do with Y2K whatsoever.

If you seriously study the whole of the Bible and follow the story line to its ultimate conclusion, the result is summed up in three words. "God is love". If you only take part of the story you can end up with some pretty weird stuff.

Taking part of it to prove something is as foolish as for example, taking the source code to Windows98, removing half of the code randomly, and recompiling it. Sure, you'd still have lots of code, but it wouldn't make a bloody bit of sense!

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), December 07, 1998.

Craig,

In due respect to your views, if you continue on in Psalms 11,5 you run into my very point of 'morality and moral decision':

"The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked," "and his soul hates him that loves violence." i.e, Guns==violence.

My goodness, I guess I have been operating under the false assumption that the Old Testament has applicability beyond Israel and the time of David. For as everyone knows, there is only one valid interpretation of scripture. That must be why there is only one church in our communities. I must tell our Pastor that he must stop his Old Testament lessens cuz it doesn't apply to us!

But we do agree that "God is Love", hense the Gospel of 'Good News'.

-- Bob Walton (waltonb@kdsi.net), December 07, 1998.

Pardon my misspellings in the last answer. I trust it won't diminish the point! Sarcasm intended.

-- Bob Walton (waltonb@kdsi.net), December 07, 1998.

"Babylon will fall, its been fortold. So it is written, so it shall be. ww"

So, are you claiming we are living in Babylon right now? I thought Babylon has been gone for thousands of years.

-- Buddy (DC) (buddy@bellatlantic.net), December 07, 1998.

Buddy,

To whom are you addressing your question of Babylon? If it addressed to me, I'm not saying that. My subject is 'struggling with the issue of guns and morality'. Please read the original post at the top.

Craig took umbrage with my quoting from the Old Testament because (paraphrase) "its meaning and interpretation is out of context for anyone other than the Israelites" in the time of David.

-- Bob Walton (waltonb@kdsi.net), December 07, 1998.

Sorry, Bob, I was addressing Wayne's remark, he signed it ww which I included.

-- Buddy (DC) (buddy@bellatlantic.net), December 07, 1998.

Bob..........

I didn't take umbrage at all with your use of Psalm 11. You're misunderstanding me. My point was that making a decision on whether to flee or stay where you are because of Y2K was not the reason why that Psalm was written. I agree with your point of not wanting to be staring down a gun barrel at others.

Further down, my point was emphasized when the book of Matthew was quoted regarding fleeing to the hills, which again certainly had no reference to Y2k, but only to the residents of Jerusalem.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), December 07, 1998.

craig, I disagree with your statement that the OT was written to just Israel. And my quote on Matthew was simply to show that there are situtations in which people have been told to go to the hills. When Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad only those who did go to the hills survived. At no time did I ever insinuate that it was for y2k..nor do I have any idea if any prophecy had to with y2k. However, I do feel my quote was relevant to the original post.

-- More Dinty Moore (Not @this time.com), December 07, 1998.

gotta say that I pretty much side with Bob and, er, ? do we call him Dinty or 'Stew' for short? as one who generally believes that the both Old and New Testaments apply just as much today as they ever did...and that I have no idea whatsoever whether this is covered in any of the as yet unfulfilled prophecies...

as I may have noted previously I see this whole y2k thing as similar to the tower of Babel, but that's just my personal opinion...

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 07, 1998.

More Dinty Moore......

You are free to disagree that the Old Testament was only written to Israel.............but you would be dead wrong.

The Books are written to the Israelites, the topic is Israel and the instructions are to the Israelites. Yes, there is good information that is valuable to all, but notwithstanding, it was written to Israel.

Just as, if I send a birthday card to you, it is for you only. There may be words of wisdom that others could learn from, but the information would not be for them.

Arlin.......

you said "gotta say that I pretty much side with Bob and, er, ? do we call him Dinty or 'Stew' for short? as one who generally believes that the both Old and New Testaments apply just as much today as they ever did..."

Again, what do you mean by apply just as much today as they ever did? Do you then support the killing of rebellious children as instructed in Deuteronomy? Should you build an Ark also? Do you follow all 600+ of the laws including ceremonial ones? Do you pay the three tithes which equalled approximately 27% of total income in OT times? Do you live in a Theocracy as Israel did? Do you believe in an eye for an eye or do you rather follow the new testament model of turning the other cheek? Have you been circumcised? Do you support the idea of a Jubilee where all debts are cancelled every fiftieth year and ownership of land goes back to the original owner?

These are not questions to be picky Arlin, but rather to show that the Old Testament law was not written to you. Rather, the new covenant is one based on love, and doing the right thing not out of fear of punishment, but as response to the love of God.

Which brings me back to my original point. Pulling a verse, any verse, out of the Bible to "prove" what is right for our Y2K plans is not only unscriptural, but could be dangerous. Particularly, the verse that Dinty Moore quoted, is often misused.

One last point, someone mentioned part of the verse about "beating ploughshares into swords". Good verse, in the right context. There is also a verse instructing the "beating of swords into ploughshares". Another good verse. They are of course not contradictary, but rather dealing with different situations. Thus the importance of understanding who is being written to and what the context of the instructions was.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), December 07, 1998.

Mr. Craig, Are you saying that an all knowing God who gave us the OT didn't know that Christains where going to use it??? And Jesus quoted it many times...for non jews as well as jews. It may be written about the history of Israel...but it wasn't written for just Israel. It was written that all might know who Jehovah God is...emmanuel, Prince of peace, everlasting Father...

-- More Dinty Moore (Not @this time.com), December 07, 1998.

See bob, what did I tell you! :-( WW

-- wayne witcher (wwitcher@mvtel.net), December 07, 1998.

"Again, what do you mean by apply just as much today as they ever did? Do you then support the killing of rebellious children as instructed in Deuteronomy?"

I don't mean to flame religion since I'm an atheist, but I want to point out something. All this brainwashing religion dishes out, it's worse than any goverment, and harder to get out of because of the guilt factor. Many religious people like you Craig see the faults/inconsistencies/illogic in bibles of whatever version, as you pointed out in the example above, but most just take it as uh...gospel. It's what frightens me the most about any religion/cult. Takes away all freedom in thinking.

-- Somebody (An Atheist@atheist'R'us.com), December 07, 1998.

The Old Testament still relevant? Certainly. (If you are a 2000 year old Jew, roaming around lost in the desert)

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), December 07, 1998.

Hi Craig,

to handle a few of your questions, without further annoying the non- Christian participants in this forum:

All true Christians live in a spiritual theocracy where God is the final and ultimate ruler and authority...and yes that means obeying Him is more important than obeying civil law. In order to discuss The Dietary laws were overridden in Acts 10: 9-16; and more generally the Whole of the Law was re-established and modified from the Mosaic perspective to Love God/ Love your neighbor, by Jesus, and as exemplified throughout the New Testament.

If you want to continue the discussion I'd suggest we take this to email, I'm more than willing to discuss it with you in that environment, and as I have the time. On the other hand, I really don't think that this sort of theological discussion is or should be an inherent part of this forum, other than to mention that some of the folks who are preparing do hold theological views similar to my own.

For those out there who think that a TEOTWAWKI scenario means not having to deal with conservative Christians, I'd suggest that you might want to reconsider that thought. :-)

Arlin Adams

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 07, 1998.

Arlin,

I agree that we should take this to email. But, may I say that this has gone beyond what I ever dreamed. Craig, I think you pose very very good questions about interpretation. I am not certain that I am can possibly be up to your standards. Aferall, I started out by saying "I am not a Bible scholor". All I ever wanted, was to start diaglog about what it takes to bring a hand gun to level - against folks we never dreamed we would 'draw down on'. You all are so great, because you obviously care. Right??

-- Bob Walton (waltonb@kdsi.net), December 08, 1998.

I don't think I can type fast enough to keep up with your thoughts. I must say, my partner of thirty years just read all of this and said; "It doesn't get any better than this". We are just average people trying to figure out what Y2K means to us, and, we don't really know how it will all turn out. You have all made a difference! Keep your best thoughts for what is coming.

-- Bob Walton (walton@kdsi.net), December 08, 1998.

Well, I must put my .02 in on this thread, The Old Testament is based upon Jesus coming and the OT mirrors things that were to take place in the New Testament and things that will take place, the book of Daniel is mirrored throughout Revelation, some of us do believe that Y2K is prophecy related, it seems to me that this would be the one event that would involve the entire world and bring forth the Anti-Christ. Personally this is where I find solace, Ive read the last chapter and I know who wins. Galatians 6:7, Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Also if you read Isaiah 53 it tells of the coming Messiah and if you read the New Testament you know that came to pass. I am sure this will cause further discussion.

-- Mrs. Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), December 08, 1998.

Couple of points:

1. You can't know and follow the teachings of Jesus and even consider shooting anyone to protect your food and water ("I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink") or even in defending yourself ("If someone asks for your shirt, give him your coat as well"). If we truly believe that we are to "Love your neighbor as yourself", then denying someone water and food is the same as denying yourself and your family. 2. The Old Testament can and should be taught to Christians in order to help us understand our God, but we need to use proper application and weigh everything against the teachings of Jesus which is our primary source of instruction. By fulfilling the law and the Old Covenant, Jesus no longer requires us to obey the laws of the Old Testament. He established a New Covenant which we are to obey where the "laws" are written in the heart. That means be very careful interpreting instructions from the Old Testament. Make sure Jesus didn't give a new "law" to replace an Old Testament law. For instance, he changed "an eye for an eye" to "turn the other cheek" and "stone the adulteress" to "he who is without sin cast the first stone". It is extremely important to know and understand the teachings of Jesus before trying to apply anything from the Old Testament.

3. For those having difficulty reconciling God as expressed through the Old Testament and God as expressed in the New Testament through Jesus, please remember that God is both loving AND just, He is merciful AND holy. Throughout the Bible, God demonstrates that He is holy as He judges sin. At the same time, God shows how much He desires to show mercy instead of judgement. And as the New Testament proclaims, "Mercy triumphs over Judgement!" through Jesus Christ. Romans 11:22 says to, "Consider therefore the kindness AND sterness of God." If you need an example that God's justice still applies to the New Testament, please read about Ananias and Sapphira in Acts chapter 5. They were instantly judged and killed (by God) after having lied to the Holy Spirit.

David

-- David (David@BankPacman.com), December 08, 1998.

Bob, Not surprisingly, you opened up the "can of worms" that seems to occur here any time anyone mentions anything about the Bible! I wonder how many detractors actually read it daily, have taken years of courses in Bible study, go to church, etc.??? But, that's o.k. Maybe they're really trying to find answers and Truth to fill their empty God-given "vacuum!" The fact is that every one of the hundreds of Old Testament prophecies concering Jesus' first coming to earh were fulfilled. Then, He said, as recorded in John 5:39, that people should "Search the Scriptures,..." etc. Timothy said in his letter, II Timothy 3:16, "All Scripture..."etc. To what "Scripture" did they refer? The New Testament had not even been collected into a book yet! The only "Scripture" available was the Old Testament. One of the joys of my life these days is being under the ministry of a Jewish (Messianic) Pastor. With his knowledge of Hebrew, he often explains the meaning of Old Testament words in the original Hebrew. Last Sunday, for instance, he quoted the Scripture, "They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength..." etc. In Hebrew, "wait" literally means to wrap yourself around the Lord, he said. That's a warm, comforting thought to this old great granny! And, here's my "Y2K Scripture" -- No need to panic over alarms or surprises, or predictions that doomsday's just around the corner, Because God will be right there with you; he'll keep you safe and sound." (Prov. 3:25&26 The Message) This is what I keep in my thoughts, rather than worrying about neighbors, etc., robbing me, now or after 01/01/2000! I am preparing, too,....that's also Scriptural--both Old and New!

-- Holly Allen (Holly3325@juno.com), December 08, 1998.

Holly,

Fyi, the infant church had the Apostles and others (teachers and prophets) who knew Jesus and knew first hand His teachings to direct them in God's ways in addition to the Old Testament scriptures. A little later, as the gospels were written and various letters from the Apostles to the churches were issued, the early church would read the gospels and letters as their scripture. They were not collected into a book, but rather were circulated as scriptural letters as Paul instructed. Even Peter makes reference to the fact that Paul's letters should be read as scripture.

The Old Testament wasn't even a complete "book" at the time. It was a collection of books that was the subject of much debate in that day to determine which were truly inspired by God. There indeed was teaching from the Old Testament, but that has always been secondary to the teachings of Jesus from the beginning to today.

David

-- David (David@BankPacman.com), December 08, 1998.

I see my dear wife has been here, love conquers all, even differing opinions regarding where the bathwater ends and the baby begins.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), December 08, 1998.

Uncle Deedah, please tell your wife she has an open invitation to visit with us over on Pastor Chris's forum. I think she would feel right at home.

-- Just lil ol me (not@important.now), December 23, 1998.

Uncle...your wife? Holly? Golly, I'm, dumfounded. I catch things so very late. I suppose everyone knows this.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), December 23, 1998.

Uncle Deedah, Like I said before, you married a very special lady and she is right on target! Events in the OT are mirrored in the NT. It is not that we are to forget the teachings in the OT but by salvation through Jesus we are empowered by the Holy Spirit who gives us the desire to be obedient to God's laws. Unfortunately we always have our own will (sin nature) that if allowed to rule dispite the Holy Spirit's leading, we will act in ways that are not in according to God's will. ROMANS 8:5-11 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires: but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace: the sinful mind is hostle to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. (no matter what religion they have) But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will Also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. vs 12 Therefore brothers, we have an obligation - but not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. As for your questions Bob, it is with all of y2k - daily prayer - we have some areas that we are still waiting for God's direction. David thanks for your points. Diana

-- Diana (count@373.day), December 23, 1998.