Terms Of Surrender

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Terms of Surrender

ATTENTION Federal Government (and others as well):

Well, well... After months of us being called names from "chicken little" to "doomsday alarmists," William Jefferson Clinton has finally addressed the Y2K problem and the potential damage that could occur on or before New Year's Day, 2000. This means that you (the government) have finally admitted your weakness - your Achilles heel. With that in mind, we think now is the time for all of us to sit down and have a little chat.

Computer experts have stated that virtually every programmer available is in use today, and you still need 500,000 to 750,000 programmers to repair the problems - just here in the US. Since many of these computers use old languages (FORTRAN, COBOL, BASIC, etc.), you are under the impression that the original programmers are long gone. It is this false impression you have that enables us to offer you the Terms of your Surrender to the American public. But remember, this olive branch we offer - this agreement, will be pulled off the table on December 31, 1998. It's your choice. First, a little background:

You figured that since those old mainframes that were built in the 50s, 60s, and 70s they were programmed by people who have long since retired. At least that's what you said publicly. But the fact is, many of those same mainframes were upgraded since then. Remember the Reagan Revolution? Yes, all the young corporate raiders - the ones that re-tooled the military, and helped build all those modern skyscrapers. Didn't they also program (and re-program) many of those machines for an ever expanding government? Where are they?

Admit it. Most of the folks who programmed those mainframes in the past have not retired, died, or disappeared. Just use the math. Most of those old mainframe programmers can't be more than 55 today. But where are they? Who are they?

They are the people who served you breakfast in that greasy spoon on your way to work this morning. The guy who shined your shoes. That janitor you saw the other day. That old cab driver who took you to the airport. The middle aged woman behind the ticket counter. The guy pumping gas at that rural truck stop. The truck driver himself. Maybe that right-wing talk show host. Some are in jail for crimes without victims - crimes against you, the government. The people you called names for daring to speak out against government atrocities. The people that have been talking about this potential problem for almost 20 years. The people who get on the internet and write letters like this.

By now, a light bulb has probably gone off in your head. "Have we been set up?", "Hoodwinked?" The answer is, no. You haven't. Yes, we remember those old languages. Some of us even have the source books. You see, you made us sit there and "vegetate" in front of that old key-punch machine or keyboard, and then took all the credit for the new innovations, while taxing us into involuntary servitude. So, we found better things to do with our lives. We dropped out. Of course, we realize now that the future of the world economy and government as we know it is in peril. You're probably wondering why haven't we told you this earlier and come to the rescue?

ANSWER: We don't want to.

If crashing the entire world economy is what it takes to bring down agencies like the IRS, FBI, FEMA, and the EPA then so be it. We know we can never really beat you by force. You think we don't know that helping you solve your computer problem would only place heavier yokes on us down the road? Didn't you consider that went you hired those "geeks" to fix your problems? Nope. You were so desperate to fix the problem, you never bother to ask the person, "Say, how do you feel about big government, anyway? How do your parents feel about it?" You figured throwing money (our money) at the problem would be the cure. The only guarantee you have that your Y2K bug is cured is "our word on it." Now, you're in a panic mode. You're probably thinking, "Gee, what if one (or more) of those Y2K computer repair people are really..."

Don't say it. We know what you're thinking. And besides, it's too late.

Don't even try and blame us for it. There's no conspiracy here. Nobody "formed an agreement" to screw up your systems. In fact many of us tried to tell you. But we were written off as alarmists. Smarty pants. Making excuses for not doing our jobs. You pushed us. All you wanted was results. Meet the deadline. Meet the deadline. Save memory space. Worry about the other problems later. By then there would be some other suckers to enslave. Sorry, but we're all slaved out.

You're hoping (and looking) for a "silver bullet." Well, there is a silver bullet. In fact, we ARE the silver bullet. We know the systems. We know the codes. And with a little time, we can fix the problem. But in order to gain our assistance, you must first meet the following terms:



We want the 16th amendment, and all laws passed thereto, repealed. This means ALL of Title 26 of the US code. That will include all those stupid tax and gun laws.


We want a constitutional amendment passed removing the phrases, "regulate interstate commerce," and "promote the general welfare" removed from the constitution. You've perverted their true meaning for far too long.


Repeal the 17th amendment. We want our states to have the ability to recall treasonous Senators whenever we see fit.


All agencies will be tested for its justifiable existence under the 9th and 10 amendments. It not, all employees of said agency must be terminated from employment - without compensation. Don't worry, they'll find other jobs. They can grow the food you've told farmers not to grow. They can make the natural medicine that the FDA has regulated out of existence. They can manufacture the products you've farmed off to third world countries. There will be plenty of work available. It's called a "free market."


Give up the land holdings. NOW. No more harassing farmers for grazing rights. No more wetlands grabbing. Scrap all the "biodiversity" regions. No more kicking people off "public" land. If you need land for the military, fine. But that's about it. Anything else goes private. Period.


We want you out of our paychecks, out of our churches, out of our medicine cabinets, out of our homes, out of the U.N. and of course - OFF the internet!


Every potential juror in every court must be told they have the right to not only judge the facts, but the law itself - no matter what the judge says. They will NOT be held in contempt for making a decision.


All political prisoners (US citizens charged with crimes against government -- IRS, drug, gun, etc.) are to receive amnesty. That's about 75% of the federal inmate population.


All federal employees, agents, and officers who have committed violent crimes against U.S. citizens, who have committed High Treason, shall be tried according to the law - in state courts.


Or fix these problems yourself.

We know this is a tall order, and you probably won't agree to any of it. In fact, you'll probably never admit that you even read this. But we know you are monitoring our communications. So here's some little secrets that will help motivate your decision.

Read the news stories about programmers who have quit and are moving to the hills? And all those naval officers who are quitting? And all of those pilots? And all of those doctors?

They are among the thousands (probably millions) joining us in our rural retreats. We've got the bibles, the beans, the bandages, the bullets -- and the brains. And you can't have them. I'm sure your federal snitches have given you numerous reports of people who simply won't file their tax returns next year. They're probably doing the same thing. Why bother? You'll have no way of counting it, anyway. Good luck trying to spend billions to fix the Y2K problem with only millions (or thousands) to pay for it. Nobody told us to do it. We've made up our own minds. We would rather starve than take your national ID cards. We would rather die than take a mark on our forehead or hands. The tobacco companies won't bail you out. The firearms manufacturers won't bail you out. The Chinese won't bail you out. And don't be surprised to see people closing out all those IRAs, 401k's and mutual fund accounts by the middle of next year. We'll need the cash for those last few bits of survival gear. Next year, you will be on your own.

Don't bother having CNN and the AP lie to us and say that you've fixed the problem. We won't believe it. We know the programmers. We are the programmers. We are the silver bullet. And we have absolutely no desire to repair the problem no matter how many federal reserve notes you print out. We will watch from afar - from a safe distance. We will survive. We will say a prayer for you, and the poor slobs who supported you, as they lose what little grip they have on civilized life. You will reap what you have sewn. Economics chaos, food shortages, disease, death and destruction will take over the cities. You will be powerless to stop it. And we will not fire a shot to make it happen. Some cities will indeed end in flames - flames that will light a path to our posterity's freedom. Ugly scenario, isn't it?

Surrender now. None of us will be entertained by watching you wither up and die. What a sobering way to ring in the next millennium. But it won't be our problem. It's is not our duty to help you. We'll have the unfortunate duty of properly disposing of your rotting corpses. Agree to our terms, and some of us - a few of us, may agree to help you in return.

So, think about it. Also think about what happened recently in Russia, Japan, Indonesia, Pakistan, North Korea, and other countries now undergoing economic and societal meltdown. Go ask them how well their computers worked to help save them. Remember who sold them to them (I'm sure they do). And take a look at history: No great nation has ever fallen from a force of arms, but from an unwillingless of its citizenry to support it.

If you would like more insight on this phenomenon, read Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand. It was written in the 40's. It has sold more copies than anything but the Bible (including your little Red Book) and it's still available in major book stores everywhere. For those of you who can't read (i.e. recent public school graduates), you can find it on audiocassette.

There will be no IMF around when it happens nor will there be any taxpayers left to foot the bill. Think about these terms, and make a decision. But remember, the clock is ticking (no pun intended).

We'll be watching C-SPAN, awaiting your decision,

John Q. Public - We are everywhere.

Link and web page at:-


-- Andy (andy_rowland@msn.com), November 25, 1998


OK you got me to finally reply to a post. Only because this 'Terms for Surrender' reflects my feelings better than I could express them. More than once I have said to my wife that I hope Y2K is a big 10! because Americans in general are LIUPs - lazy, ignorant, unscrupulous people. Y2k has given me something to look forward to. Come on 10

-- Smile on my face. (Deep inthe@ woods.com), November 25, 1998.

LIUPs...is that pronounced lie-ups or lee-ups?

-- a (a@a.a), November 25, 1998.

WOOOOOW !!! I am speechless - shades of Dagney Taggart and John Galt. When we read "Atlas Shrugged" (3 times) we said to one another - I wish there was a group of people who could withdraw their services, to stop the world. Now we know there could be.

-- Laurane (familyties@rttinc.com), November 25, 1998.

Smile: If you liked that, your'e going to LOVE this:

Free Republic

-- Rob Michaels (sonofdust@net.com), November 25, 1998.




-- sweetolebob (buffgun@hotmail.com), November 25, 1998.

Andy you have prompted me to tell my story.

25 years in the business. Up until 4 1/2 years ago.

I got caught up in a fortune 100 company's fraudulent billing practice on Gov contracts. I refused to play the game. An attempt was made to set me up (sexual misconduct). I saw it coming and tricked them by taking my wife on the trip. She knew why she was with me. Nice alibi, don't you think? :)

I found documents that altered my personal hours billed to projects that I didn't work on (I still have copies of this documents and others.) So I pulled the plug and resigned.

This is obviously a Reader's Digest version but you get the idea.

I seriously considered filing qui tam charges, saw an attorney who made contact with the feds. The feds said that they had so many similar actions against this company that I would have to stand in line. The feds don't want the embarrassment.

Yep, we are out here. And we've done a many death marchers.

But...Bite Me. I've got food, water, power, guns and sick desire to watch it all come down.

-- MVI (vtoc@aol.com), November 25, 1998.

Who is John Gault? (Just kidding couldn't resist)

Andy that was a great post. I'm saving my third read of Atlas Shrugged for cold nights by the fire with my kerosene lamp.

-- Bill (bill@microsoft.com), November 25, 1998.

Hey, guys -- if you get your wish, and it all comes down, cities in flames, mass starvation, cholera, typhoid, dengue, Mad Max, whatever -- almost all the people taking the hit are just as much victims as yourselves. And you want medals?

Compared to that, Lt. Calley's achievements at My Lai aren't even worth mentioning. (Younger readers see The Peers Inquiry for details.)

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), November 25, 1998.

Tom, the ironic thing is we were there too. Do the math.

-- MVI (vtoc@aol.com), November 25, 1998.

Tom, what I'm about to say will sound really inhumane. To everyone who doesn't know me in real life, I'm a nice guy. I'm kind to animals and I give 10% of my income to charity.

Those "people taking the hit" voted for big government. They voted for the big government that bleeds achievers dry to feed the lazy masses. They supported -directly or by ignorance- more and more taxes, more and more invasion of our rights by the government. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. These people are part of the problem.

I'm sorry that many or most of them will have to die. I am. I don't like ANYONE dying before their time (unless they're socialists *g*), but you can't make an omlette without breaking eggs. It's a cliche, but it's true. To stop Hitler, millions of innocent Germans -civilians and soldiers who were fighting for their country, not for a leader many hated- had to die.

I finished Atlas Shrugged the first time last week. I've since re-read most of it.

Tom, if you've read the book, the last 2/3rds of it -and specifically the last fifth or tenth- involves Mad Max. Civil war, mass starvation, terrorism and so forth. The achievers, the people who are now living in Galt's Gulch, were by your logic directly responsible for all that. Eight figure body count (if you count what Project X did when it went blooey). But was that more John Galt's fault- or the fault of the government? I don't think it's a question that has to be answered.

Now my personal opinion: That scenario is the only positive thing I can think of about TEOTWAWKI. In fact, if that was the result, I'd want a perfect 10. Make that an 11, in fact.

I back the Declaration 100%. I am completely fully, 100% behind it. If my company ever gets off the ground, I would make it a point of honor to supply adherents to the Declaration -ESPECIALLY programmers who are bugging out partially BECAUSE of the declaration- with free or cost-price supplies. (Which is probably not going to happen, but it's a nice thought ;) )

Andy- Bravo.


-- Leo (leo_champion@hotmail.com), November 26, 1998.

As a taxi (exec version) driving systems analyst bounced because I took an Ex VP out to lunch and aco-worker told him the truth about a project, I can endorse much of the declaration, except the glee. I truly agree with the suggestions that there have been huge inroads made in the traditional freedoms of this land. I fear for my ability to "go along to get along" if many more features are removed from the Constitution, or if the features there are perverted, or "reconstructed" in contravention of the written evidence of the framers' intent. I would be willing to step forward if most the conditions listed are met. The set I have a problem with is the "political prisoner" section. NOT all of the folks "inside" on gun and/or tax charges qualify as political prisoners. There are enough folks inside because tax evasion was the only thing that would stick when the murder 1 charges would not (Capone and Gotti are cases in point) that I would probably hope to strike this piece. BUT, I would step forward if the Constitutional and legislative initiatives were enacted.

so much for another footnote in the FBI file!

C d n d

-- C d n d (figure@IT.out), November 26, 1998.


I dont say the system as it stands now doesnt deserve to fall. They did it to themselves. And many of us did drop out because we were disgusted with the way it all didnt work. It is amazingly ironic that their greatest toys, the computers and the global economies, will crash around their ankles, and all their control scenarios with them. BUT it does NOT have to be a 10 to still watch them crumble, uh, re-organize! Remember the we the people? The men, women and all the CHILDREN?

We are the future, beyond Y2K if we choose to be. We can change all of it to something more in alignment with integrity, with caring, with helping, with, dare I say the L word, Love. I suspect we are about to see the end of History. His-story. The era of war, aggression, individual death statistics defined as the trophies of progress, hate, greed for golds sake, the pushing and shoving that comes with the only me first attitudes.

I have confidence that after the Y2K crash, of our old way of being, we may choose to enter a world of Her-story. Where enlightenment, honoring the individual and the earth, coming together as community, creating growth and prosperity based on values of acceptance and tolerance and encouragement and caring and caretaking irrespective or color or belief, will become the rule of ALL the lands. Mothers of the world unite, might be a better beyond Y2K aftermath scenario. (Fathers too, as they recall their stewardship roles). Do you laugh and ridicule when a young child is learning to walk? No. You encourage it to get up again and keep on trying. Y2K may well collapse our technological society to the toddler state again. So what? Its a challenge. An opportunity to do it better and brighter. To make different choices. To try making it work (scratch that), to MAKE IT WORK differently.

Try? There is no try. There is only do, or not do. -- Yoda, Jedi Warrior.

We have a little over one year and counting down. Are we going to choose the scortched earth policy used so effectively against Napoleon? Unfortunately, we would burn ourselves too. Or are we going to grow a new garden, be sure as many as possible make it through, including the children, and change our world into its best potential. That is our ultimate SURRENDER. Not just them but us too.


(P.S. Happy Thanksgiving, and remember why we gave/give thanks).

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 26, 1998.



You misquoted Yoda.

It's; "Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." -Master Yoda (ESB '80)

If you're gonna quote Star Wars...GET IT RIGHT!

Some of us are sensitive on that matter.

As for the Declaration; where do I sign MY John Hancock??

I say we let it all fall down, and remake our nation the way it was originally inteded by God and our founders.

I suppose some will say that's the Dark Side talking.


Listening to anything our government or Emperor Clinton says, is hearing the Dark Side talking.

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), November 26, 1998.

MVI-- "we were there too." I figured most of you folks were. From what I saw of it on TV, and what I've read since, the ground war in the Western Europe (WW2) (where I was) was pretty tame by comparison.

Leo --

Those "people taking the hit" voted for big government. They voted for the big government that bleeds achievers dry to feed the lazy masses. They supported -directly or by ignorance- more and more taxes, more and more invasion of our rights by the government.

No question about that. But consider the massive deception and hypnosis distributed by all media that made it so easy to be comfortable, so easy not to know. And all the children out there who have never voted -- do you blame them too for the world we've built? As for votes -- it's been some years since any real choices were in the ballot boxes. Or didn't you know?

The achievers, the people who are now living in Galt's Gulch, were by your logic directly responsible...

Logic? Moi? I didn't see any logic... I was trying to make the simple point that getting your kicks watching millions die while you survive doesn't qualify you for brownie points. And I certainly said nothing about responsibility. The systemic problem we're heading into will have consequences. Whatever your status then or later, it won't be anything to gloat about. Blame, shame, fame, -- none of that's going to mean dipshit.

Invar -- whenever I hear people telling me what God wants I figure either they've got something to my disadvantage up their sleeve, or they're misinformed. Read history.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), November 26, 1998.

Some good points. Diane first:

What you said certainly sounds nice -for some people. Personally, I have not much interest in any community outside that of my own friends. Society is driven by the elite achievers, by the Hank Reardens and Dagny Taggarts of the world. If people want to be caring and sharing and so forth, that's nice and I honestly do wish them well, but they should have to work for any and all material goods they get.

(Personally, I don't give a damn about race, beliefs or sexuality. I judge people on one thing and one alone, and that's their merit. I also think you'd be stupid to think otherwise.)

Tom- I agree that there is very little choice at the ballot box and that a lot of innocent, well-meaning people are going to go down on this Titanic simply because nobody ever told them the shipowner was a jerk. And I really don't like that. But if the ship DIDN'T sink, how hard would it to be a new one? A better one?

The logic that I assumed you were following was "you people are pulling out and therefore, like a cop walking away from a crime in progress, letting people die by direct and deliberate negligence". That's what I was defending (and no, I don't think of it in the terms of that cop analogy, that's just how I'd argue it if I were opposed to what I'm saying).


-- Leo (leo_champion@hotmail.com), November 26, 1998.

Tom, I took exception to your example of My Lai. Reread your post. Fire, famine, and disease were common occurances in the Republic of South Vietnam as you may well know. You suggest the possibility of the same occurring on American soil.

No glee then, none now, see no possibility of it in the future if and when the US Government decides to inflict the same treatment upon its own citizens in the name of freedom. Or citizen fighting citizen for food, water, clothing, and shelter.

Yes, one can without too much of a stretch apply the same scenario to the US in a post y2k TEOTHWAWKI. Many factions fighting for differing reasons. Food, land, arms, control, ideology.

Imagine the inner conflict and turmoil of the LT Calley's of tomorrow when faced with the prospect of either a)following orders (seize the rice, beans, guns, money, and take prisoners), b)face a court martial, or c) desert. Imagine the same for the private citizens protecting their families. What would you do?

I hold no ill will toward you. I only wish things were as black and white, right or wrong, good and evil as you suggest. The picture is too blurred for me and I see no solution.

-- MVI (vtoc@aol.com), November 26, 1998.

"I hold no ill will toward you. I only wish things were as black and white, right or wrong, good and evil as you suggest. The picture is too blurred for me and I see no solution."

There you have it. That's the best summation I've seen yet. My feelings exactly.

My initial response was prompted by the general tenor of Andy's rant. I understand the rage and frustration. Got some of my own, as a matter of fact. Just don't want to turn into the sort of person that brought us to this. Just hoping whoever survives won't either.

Wm. Blake, in letter to Thomas Butts, 1802:

May God us keep / From single vision and Newton's sleep!

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), November 27, 1998.

Just want to say that I did not write this manifesto, the author can be found at:


However it does have a real bearing on how *some* programmers feel about this situation.

Don't know if this thread has been covered before, but I've been reading lately that there will inevitably be (and currently is) a percentage of Programmers out there - the spectrum ranging from disgruntled employees through to US/Foreign National Cyber-Terrorists (the US market has been absolutely flooded with expat contractors - myself included) - who are actively sabotaging code, planting timebombs etc.

The possibilities for exacerbating the core remediation problems have got to be immense.

Anyone care to comment on a) how widespread this might be, and b) the likelihood of success, and c) in what order of magnitude would the sabotage be successful considering the mainframe and commercial interconnectivity factors of the (ahem) amended code.

Thanks, Andy

-- Andy (andy_rowland@msn.com), November 27, 1998.

Active sabotage?

Okay, there it goes. Just when my barometer was looking a little optimistic and going down to 8, the fact that people would be deliberately and actively screwing systems up, meaning that "checked" systems may very well have hidden time bombs, has just kicked the little meter hard.

If that's happening, boys and girls, we are going to have a very bad 10 on our hands indeed.


-- Leo (leo_champion@hotmail.com), November 27, 1998.

Tom- Who's misinformed here? You sound like a paranoid idiot. Why is it when anyone mentions God or scripture you people assume that us "Right Wing Extremists" want to exterminate or imprison those of you who prefer unbelief? Guilt complex?

As far as telling me to read history...you obviously haven't read the Federalist Papers or the writings of the founders of this nation. Everything they fashioned: the law, liberty and justice was based on scriptural precedence and a strong belief in a benevolent Creator. His laws...not the law of man. Read the Declaration of Independence if you doubt me.

To deny this, or to re-write history with a bunch of idiotic nonsense is to deny the greatness our nation has achieved in over 200 years of our existence. We didn't create the wealth this nation had within it. We resourced it with the blessings of God. Rewriting history to state the founders were a bunch of religious, criminal kooks is to spit on the graves of every American who fought and died for our liberty.

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), November 27, 1998.

And for a dissenting opinion on MANY things, read teh "Anti- Federalist Papers" Yes they exist, and were written the same time as the Federalist Papers. HOWEVER, BOTH papers refer MANY TIMES to the Creator, were written by men who held a SERIOUS belief in the Great Architect of the Universe, and could NOT CONCEIVE of the Nation surviving without a FIRM reliance on the Hand of God assisting the hand that holds the tiller of the Ship of State.

One of the commentators here had an article which defined the ACLU as the organization which tries to preserve us from any contact with God as this is eqoivalent with a contact with a hazardous material.


Who sometimes closes with "Parting on the Square"

-- Chuck , a traveling night driver (rienzoo@en.com), November 27, 1998.

Uh, some of us are atheists ;)


-- Leo (leo_champion@hotmail.com), November 27, 1998.

Insofar as people continue to invest time, energy and other things in the corrupt system, the system will continue. When enough people walk away,...and that means do not try to reform system either...when enough people stop playing the game, the system will topple the rest of the way it is already taking itself.

Atlas shrugged,...They cannot play without us.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), November 27, 1998.

I agree with the original post, with one exception. I shall not pray for the "string of zeros" -- I will cheer.

No excuses about the "media", churches, politicians, etc. misleading them. Some of us have seen what's happening -- the political situation in general, and Y2K in particular; there's no excuse for the rest not to. The fact is, most people are congenitally stupid, willfully ignorant, resolutely greedy, irredeemably nasty, with the imagination of toads, the abstracting ability of flatworms, and the aesthetic sensibilities of maggots. They can stay in the crap.

-- willie (wille@galt.com), November 27, 1998.


"No excuses about the "media", churches, politicians, etc. misleading them. Some of us have seen what's happening -- the political situation in general, and Y2K in particular; there's no excuse for the rest not to. The fact is, most people are congenitally stupid, willfully ignorant, resolutely greedy, irredeemably nasty, with the imagination of toads, the abstracting ability of flatworms, and the aesthetic sensibilities of maggots. They can stay in the crap."

Don't try to sugar coat it man, we can take the truth, How do you really feel?


-- sweetolebob (buffgun@hotmail.com), November 27, 1998.

S.O.B. Sounds like social worker material to me.

-- Rob Michaels (sonofdust@net.com), November 27, 1998.

Hey, Invar -- lighten up.

No one's been calling you names, fella. No worries.

Read what's posted, not what you're afraid of.

How would you describe someone who is convinced that anyone expressing a contrary opinion is an enemy?

Look in the mirror.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), November 28, 1998.

Willie & Other "watch 'em die" Fans:

I am a 41 yr. old husband & father. I can not tell you how selfish you sound; how spiteful and childish. If you are the hope for our future, I'm buying a bullet proof vest. The moment we stoop to the LEVEL of our adversaries is the moment we lose more than the battle, we lose the best of WHO we are. Know this, that civilization will crumble, not because of a "Time Bomb 2000" but because of the loss of civility and a return to the dark ages of plucking an eye for an eye.

I understand the moral darkness that encases this nation and the world. I've seen its effects first hand. I know that we can all stoop to the lowest common denominator faster than you can say "Adam, where are you?" But it is only that way if we choose it to be.

You might say, "Easy for you to say. You're not a poor unsuspecting programmer who's been used and abused." No, I'm not a programmer. BUT PROGRAMMERS ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE BEEN ABUSED BY OTHERS AT WORK. Get off your self pitty soap box. Nobody made you stay at your job. Nobody made you study computer programming. And, just because you are paranoid that others will blame you for this problem, doesn't mean you don't have a moral obligation to share with others any solutions you may have up your sleeves.

So you want to see it all crumble and you don't care how many get hurt. You remind me of Gallump (excuse me if the spelling is wrong) in the Lord of the Rings. A pathetic, selfish, cowardly, shrivelled reminant of former nobility. I would rather choose death with dignity on the other side of your fence. Your hate nausiates me. Try offering solutions instead of threats and see how your soul grows.

-- Tom (tomahawx@aol.com), November 28, 1998.

Bravo Tom!!

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 28, 1998.

Great thread! Just remember, a 10 can be as good as it gets or as bad as it gets, depending on your viewpoint.

-- Bill S. (arlene@inreach.com), November 28, 1998.

****Try offering solutions instead of threats and see how your soul grows. ****

Yes! Very much said here and I'll add only my yes.

As to your reference from The Lord of The Rings...I think it was the Gollum...the penultimate of evil...M. Scott Peck's person of the lie....

Let's have some more solutions, some more settings for survival beyond Y2K.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), December 05, 1998.

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