How can renters heat their apts when it is unacceptable to the owner to allow noisy generators and a huge gas tank on the property? Besides, apts offer no privacy and security, and even if one had a generator, it would probably disappear fast! Does anyone know where to buy rather simple alternative space heaters or reasonably inexpensive wood-burning stoves (small ones? I'm not sure a full-blown one would be tolerated by the owner. Does anyone have any other ideas for heating the home?

-- Lona Ann White (lonawhite@earthlink.net), November 16, 1998

Answers

# # # 19981116

Hello, Lona,

Don't even think about it! Get out of "Dodge," before TY2KSHTF!

Get with relatives -- find "lost" ones if you have to -- for a very long ( 5-10 years!! ) "vacation" in a remote ( less than 3,000 folks! ) location and learn: animal husbandry, farming, well digging, hunting, gathering ( cropsharing? ) ... whatever it takes.

An apartment without electricity, heat, water, food, and other of life's amenities isn't going to be any place to be after 1Q1999!

If that's out of the question, buy a very warm tent and find some squating turf.

Your "home" will no longer be a home.

Good luck!

Regards, Bob Mangus # # #

-- Robert Mangus (rmangus@mail.netquest.com), November 16, 1998.

Oh my. The only thing I can suggest is to take Bob's advice. Although I live in a home now, I did live in hi rise for along time. Just yesterday I thought what will those in apt's do? If you are unable to leave the only option I could think of would be a kerosence heater. They are small and dont cost much (120.00) and the price of fuel. Make sure smoke detector/carbon dioxide detector works. Keep a window open a lil bit to vent. I feel bad for you but this is all I can think of. I hope others will have better ideas than mine. But, IF you can, TRY to get with a family member who has a home. Away from city is what most suggest, but I am unable to do that. SAFETY 1st. Good luck

-- consumer alert (private@aol.com), November 16, 1998.

one way of doing this would be to use aladdin oil lamps. these things are great for light, and they put off an incredible amount of heat. I bought two "genies", and I live in an attic apartment. every year I freeze my ass off. but now I just fire up my aladdins, and I'm toasty in no time. if you decide to buy some of these, get the genie models. they are glass, rather than metal, which allows you to moniter the oil level.

-- ed (edrider007@aol.com), November 16, 1998.

If the situation arises (no heat in an apartment building for a prolonged period) won't people start building fires in inappropriate places? I'd be most concerned about fire in this situation.

-- Ned (entaylor@cloudnet.com), November 17, 1998.

A couple of options:

1) The Genie lanterns 2) Coleman 2-mantle lanterns also generate a bit of heat. 3) Kerosun ( or analog) heater 4) Coleman cataclysmic heater (oops! I think of them that way! They'er actually catalytic) either the Coleman fuel or the propane version. 5) Ventless propane heaters

If you decide to flee and have no real place to go (God, I sure wouldn't want to have to do that but...)

1 There is no such thing as a warm tent!! You can consider heating the tent with some of the above (2,3,4 will work) or

You will want to look into a very small wood stove (called a shepheard's stove (-2 sp))

You will need to be using a CANVAS tent of size LARGE (MUCH larger than you might think you can handle alone) with a "stove hole" installed in the roof. this requires a LOT of care. And the tent requires a lot of money as these aint cheap!!

Any really GOOD true outfitter should be able to do all of this for you and will probably successfully talk you out of the idea.

It's an option, but ONLY as a LAST resort.

CR

-- Chuck a Night Driver (rienzoo@en.com), November 17, 1998.

Move to a house. Preferably away from a big city.

Remember to invest in long johns, warm clothes, mittens, sweaters, coats, ski clothing, blankets, etc. in addition to alternate heat sources.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 17, 1998.

I've got to go with the majority here. You need to be somewhere that gives you more control (and thus more options) than your current situation allows. We live just outside a medium size city (200,000) and are going to try to stick it out here -- but -- we have a house with 2 acres and a well and a septic system and are about 5 miles out from the edge of town on a gravel. We know our neighbors. We think our current location makes the most sense for us if events are less than a total meltdown in our area. And we ARE looking at options further out.

In short, even though we are closer to a city than I would prefer to be, there are a number of reasons that lead us to believe that, for a wide range of possible scenarios, we will be fine.

The bottom line here is how much control you have over your own situation. This of course involves drawing your own conclusions as to 'how bad' things will get. You will find opinions here ranging from 'non-event' to 'apocalypse'.

Our own personal strategy is to have several options for the widest range of of possibilities. One thing this meant was not spending all of our resources up front on a single plan of action -- i.e. staying 'as flexible as possible for as long as possible' and always keeping something in reserve. Don't bet the farm on just one possible outcome. But do prepare.

We're trying to have multiple solutions for each potential problem. Take water for example. If no power problems occur, we'll do what we currently do -- use the utility's juice to run our well. If power goes off temporarily/infrequently, we'll have a cheap generator to temporarily run the well. If we run out of fuel for the generator, we'll have a hand pump on our well. And, heaven forbid, should all those options fail, we'll have several hundred gallons of stored water on hand.

We're taking the same approach with other essentials - heat, security, food, sanitation, etc. Still working on the location thing.

Short of a total meltdown, we will be prepared and will do fine. But if Infomagic, Gary North, and Paul Milne are even close to correct, we are probably not going to survive. Neither will they. I think only Infomagic understands the full implications of the meltdown he, GN and Paul describe. While I personally think such a meltdown is possible, I know there are a much larger number of lesser (but still quite serious) scenarios which are more probable. This is where preparation can make a huge difference. By and large, it will be our preparation for, and reaction to, the events (real and perceived) as they unfold that determine the outcome.

Paul: We're completely safe! I measured! We're 6.2 miles from the nearest '7-11'. :-o

-Arnie

-- Arnie Rimmer (arnie_rimmer@usa.net), November 17, 1998.

I ordered a small kerosene cook stove yesterday for backup heat. Cost: $105 including two spare wicks. This unit is rated at 8,500 btus output, so it should be enough to heat one fair-sized room. I estimate from their fuel consumption number that one 55-gal drum of kerosene should provide 60 days of heat, burning 16 hrs per day. (you do not want to use an unvented heat source while sleeping!)

My main source of heat is wood, but in case it seems wise to lay low, I don't want the sight and smell of smoke to give away my position.

-- Max Dixon (Ogden, Utah USA) (Max.Dixon@gte.net), November 17, 1998.

Buy lots of warm clothes. Get hats, gloves and long underwear. Plenty of blankets and some good sleeping bags (army issue...?).

Get a kerosene cookstove. You can get some heat from that and kerosene can be stored relatively safely (get kerosene lantern too).

Set up a tent in one room to sleep in, body heat will warm it right up.

Good luck

-- Okum (ws000@aol.com), November 17, 1998.

This y2k stuff is driving me nuts. All I can think of when we go shopping is "How will this work in 2000" Today I saw a neat item in Walmart. It's a quilted, step in jump suit. I think they call it a "blizzard suit" I bought one each for me and my wife. It was so warm I had to take it off after 10 minutes. Talk about containing body heat. I figure I can cut heating energy by at least 50% with these puppies. The price was about $40.00 each. Just thought I would pass it along.

Bill in South Carolina (75 degrees today)

-- Bill Solorzano (notaclue@webtv.net), November 17, 1998.

Ah- - Bill, It sounds like you just made the acquaintance of a snow-mobile suit. We northerners wouldn't be without ours. They're also good for snow- blowing the driveway.

Chuck

-- Chuck a Night Driver (rienzoo@en.com), November 17, 1998.

chuck, where'd u get those? Hate to admit it, but although i am a here also, I am clueless as to what u speak of. Of course i'm one of those folks who just recently broke down and went to a local thrift store to purchase a down coat. LOL. I ONLY bought it cuz people at church kept asking where my coat was. BTW THRIFT STORES RULE for warm clothing that is inexpensive

-- consumer alert (private@aol.com), November 17, 1998.

Still haven't worked out what a 7-11 is.

-- Richard Dale (rdale@figroup.co.uk), November 17, 1998.

As much as I love my independence and privacy, I moved out of my apartment in August and moved back in with the folks. It was(IS)not easy since I have a small child and now have to deal with my parents approving/disapproving of everything I do or say as a parent. I also have to deal with the "pride" issue, of people assuming that I moved back in with mommy and daddy because I must not have been able to afford living on my own(I could,thank you). 'Course pride won't feed you or keep you warm... I don't know if you even have that option, so I'll just remind myself when I get frustrated that I'm lucky that I have a family that I could go to, and one that is preparing at that!

-- madeline (runner@bcpl.net), November 17, 1998.

Blessings on all you great folks! Some good ideas here!

-- Lona Ann White (lonawhite@earthlink.net), November 17, 1998.

Richard, a 7-11 is a convenience store (grocery basic supplies and junk foods at higher prices) well known here in the USA. There is one in almost every neibhorhood in cities and suburbs.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), November 17, 1998.

I think you should listen to all these people who can offer advice on how to stay warm where you are. Guys, where are 8 million New Yorkers gonna go? There are generations of families there. The relatives out of town may not exist. Thanks for the great ideas. BTW, I'm planning to heat just one room. Yeah, it'll get cranky, but at least we'll be around to crank about it.

-- margie mason (mar3mike@aol.com), November 17, 1998.

***..."a 7-11 is a convenience store (grocery basic supplies and junk foods at higher prices) well known here in the USA. There is one in almost every neibhorhood in cities and suburbs."***

Not only that but they are known to attract thugs and armed robbers....high risk job: shop clerk in a 7-11

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), November 17, 1998.

If you dont have family, you find several friends in the same apartment situation you are in who likewise want to prepare for Y2K and you throw in together to rent a house where you can stand a better chance of surviving. You must overlook your differences and bind together like a FUNCTIONAL FAMILY to help each other survive whatever difficulties you may face. Your lives may depend on cooperating and helping each other

-- Ann Fisher (zyax55b@prodigy.com), November 18, 1998.

If getting out is not an option, then Ann's advice above is key. If things get at all serious, NYC is going to be worse than most areas. You'll need help. So will your neighbors. I know this sorta goes against the NYC keep-to-yourself lifestyle but the times they are a-changin'.

-Arnie (who admits he wouldn't be caught in NYC even on a good day!)

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie_Rimmer@usa.net), November 18, 1998.

Margie, as one of those 8 million New Yorkers, all I can say is that my sister and I are going to do what madeline is doing. "Pride" is knowing that you are willing to take care of whoever you need to take care of under any circumstances. The parents live out in a small suburban town, and luckily are Y2K aware and we're all preping. I wouldn't even think of staying in the city. If I didn't have the option, I would probably become one of the "roaming hoardes."

Lona Ann - another relevant question will be - "where will renters poop?"

-- pshannon (pshannon@inch.com), November 18, 1998.

But's there's lots of trees in Central Park....

But if used for heating, then I guess they wouldn't be available for ....

Then again, if the buildings freeze, and the pipes break, then the rushing water would "flush" the mess out of the way.

It's real mess - in NYC or elsewhere - any place where lots of people, most individually good and honest, are crammed into a small area relying entirely on the copper, iron, and paper triangles to work.

And if they break - when they break - for how long - what happens to the people?

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), November 18, 1998.

does anyone know where i can get a stovejack for my canvas wall tent?

i have tried searches on the internet, have found companies that will sell tents with stovejacks, but will not sell the stovejacks seperately.

-- areseejay (areseejay@aol.com), November 18, 1998.

Areseejay: I knew i'd seen these before, so had to look them up, but found them. for stove jacks, i found 2 sources to try. The first, i'm not sure if they sell them seperately, the second, i know they do (30.00), but you can try both. the first may just not have listed them as seperate, so i thought it worth it to try.

Walders Pack Saddlery- 1 800/253-5841; www.walkerspacksaddlery.com

Tentsmiths- 603/447-2344, email address- tents@moose.ncia.net.

Hope this helps!

-- Damian Solorzano (oggy1@webtv.net), November 19, 1998.

Areseejay: I knew i'd seen these before, so had to look them up, but found them. for stove jacks, i found 2 sources to try. The first, i'm not sure if they sell them seperately, the second, i know they do (30.00), but you can try both. the first may just not have listed them as seperate, so i thought it worth it to try.

Walkers Pack Saddlery- 1 800/253-5841; www.walkerspacksaddlery.com

Tentsmiths- 603/447-2344, email address- tents@moose.ncia.net.

Hope this helps!

-- Damian Solorzano (oggy1@webtv.net), November 19, 1998.

UM stove jack?? I assume this is the chimney hole?? If you have a problem getting one I could refer you to a store that will be willing to instal one.

Chuck

ps the down side is they are in Cleveland.

C

-- Chuck a Night Driver (rienzoo@en.com), November 19, 1998.

Thanks for the info on the stovejacks, will call tomorrow.

Chuck, Cleveland is a little bit out of the way for me, i'm in MT. Thanks anyway.

-- areseejay (areseejay@aol.com), November 19, 1998.

A standalone shack in even a small town or suburb would be infinitely better than an apartment or the YUPPIE abominations called condos or townhouses.

Can you scale back your city digs, so you could afford both for awhile?

But make sure you can actually get out of dodge -- physically -- when TSHTF. Where I live, there are only a couple of ways to get to better areas, and the pigs are likely to prevent exit, even if the idiots haven't already jammed them up by rolling and crashing their Cherokees and other SUVs.

-- samesituation (go@plantoflee.com), November 22, 1998.

Here's how one of my neighbor's renters heated their apartment a few years ago.

Our neighbor noticed one day that the roof of his rental looked like it was sagging. He looked up into the attic and found that someone had cut out some trusses and burned them in the fireplace. Along with the wall panelling.

Renters had good survival skills.

-- . (.@...), November 22, 1998.

So who needs a roof truss?

Everybody knows they put lots of those in just so the greedy capitalistic builders can gouge the innocent poor consumers out their hard-earned wages...

Oops, must of got a dose of Squire (Squirrel ?) Casey in there.

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), November 22, 1998.

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-- zz (x@x.x), November 23, 1998.

The snow-mobile suit sounds cozy. Thanks Bill & Chuck.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@pop.shentel.net), June 07, 1999.