If you don't access anything else, be sure to go to the "Y2K TIP OF THE WEEK www.y2ktimebomb.com You will find Jim Lord's article and, hopefully, follow his urging to send a copy of it to your local newspaper, as well as elected officials, both local and national. This is heavy stuff, folks! With Slick Willy's record, all the way from Arkansas, one can surely wonder what his planned agenda might be in taking advantage of the debacle ahead. Will America have a king after all? Another excellent one to print out and give to family, friends, etc., still denying any major y2k disruptions... cbn.org/y2k and click on "Why Can't We Just Revert to Manual Systems?"

-- Holly Allen (Holly3325@juno.com), November 13, 1998

Answers

Here it is as a hotlink:

http://www.y2k timebomb.com/Tip/Lord/lord9846.htm

-- Arnie Rimmer (arnie_rimmer@usa.net), November 13, 1998.

Holly, good post.

Time to send some e-mails to my local newsmedia.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 13, 1998.

Please forgive the lengthy insert. I just received an e-mail a few hours ago which may apply to this thread. FYI:

PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY, ALL OF IT.

THE CLINTON WHITEHOUSE IS SPONSORING A WHAT APPEARS TO BE A COMPETENT MAJOR PUSH TO FACILIATE AND COORDINATE ORGANIZING FOR Y2K COMMUNITY PREPAREDNESS. FIRST OPEN STRATEGIC PLANNING RETREAT NEXT WEEK IN D.C. TO INCLUDE REGIONAL FOLLOWUPS AND VIRTUAL ACTION.

THEIR IMMEDIATE CONCERN IS COMPUTER DATE PROBLEM DISRUPTION STARTING JAN 1, 1999 (1.5 MONTHS AWAY) THAT HAVE THE POTENTIAL OF DISRUPTING EFFORTS TO PREPARE FOR Y2K !!!!!!! IF THEY ARE CONCERNED, WE SHOULD BE CONCERNED.

I BELIEVE THAT THIS IS RELATED TO THE ARLINGTON INSTITUTE'S PROJECT Y2K: http://www.azstarnet.com/~nuu/Other_DOCS/project_y2k_arlington.htm

THE TUCSON YEAR2000 CENTER SHOULD BE INVOLVED. I WOULD APPRECIATE ANY OTHER INFO YOU MAY HAVE ABOUT THIS ACTION. THANKS. LARRY

>From: Bdfutures@aol.com >Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 01:58:53 EST >Subject: National Y2K Civic Leadership Initiative ... a Strategic Planning Retreat >X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 214 > >Dear Colleagues: > >As many of you already know, on November 19-21, 1998, we will begin to >galvanize a National Network for Community Resilience and synchronize the >efforts of those dedicated to Community Y2K Contingency Planning. We will >meet for full days on the 20-21st. There is much to cover and I will do the >best I can to be concise as I bring you up to date in this email. > >For those new to this network: The Strategic Planning Retreat will help us >create the collaborative communties attitude and national infrastructure for >sharing practices and lessons learned that are vital to the success of far >more communities in 1999 and beyond. We must focus on maintaining a robust >infrastructure and intact supply chains for as long as possible. Many >communities are latecomers to the social implications of Y2K. Early adaptors >make a tremendous difference by getting to know each other and sharing lessons >learned. By working together, we pave the way for others. > >Need > >The likelihood that there will be "citizen critical" infrastructure >disruptions due to Y2K computer system failures is growing every day. Local >and regional awareness and preparation is necessary to prevent chaos and >ensure stability. > >Response > >Regional conferences that bring together civic leaders, from non- profits, >foundations, local governments, state governments, private industry, and >community action agencies in order to accelerate awareness, promote mass >transfer of best practices, and catalyze community building, will be held in >regions around the country. > >Scope > >The scope of this initiative is limited to awareness building, information >gathering and sharing, and the establishment of a regional infrastructure to >address the problem areas. The initiative will encourage regional >organization and leadership and will also act as an on-going resource for >information, support, and community development. > >Outcomes > >It is the intention of this initiative to ensure the preparation of regional >communities to meet "citizen critical" needs. > >Please join us in more ways than one. > >A coordinating core is an essential first step to a successful, highly >distributed approach. This event is not the be all and end all, but a vital >step in the right direction. It will be a valuable kick off to >national/regional and online meetings and conference calls, and the scope will >be as dependent on funding as it is on our creativity and resourcefulness. We >are lining up different host organizations for face-to-face regional meetings, >so let us know as soon as possible of your interest. > >We welcome the active participation of foundations, particularly those that >have expressed their concerns and pledged their commitment to Y2K readiness at >the recent White House Summit on November 5th. A true partnership in the >development of this strategic action plan will save us from wasting valuable >time that we do not have and help us facilitate a meeting of the minds. Please >forward this to those who have offered support or who simply need to be >informed. > >We are depend on funding from those who truly stand behind this critical joint >venture on behalf of communities nationwide. Thank you so far to the >Independent Sector for being the first to step up to the plate by covering >food and beverages and to the Arlington Institute and the Office of Personnel >Management for the offers of space. We will advise registrants of the final >location in the DC area as soon as it is confirmed. > >To register, please email me at bdfutures@aol.com by Tuesday, November 16th >with complete personal contact information and your web site for the >participant list and our online network. The number of registrants will have >a bearing on the space we will use. > >We are beginning to develop toolkits for collaborative communities, so please >bring key multi-media materials, reference lists, "best practice" information, >and an overview of your organization, its mission, products and services in >hard copy and in MS Word. Indicate the territory you already serve and that >which you are best positioned to serve. Such information will help us >identify gaps and develop regional breakouts. Notify us of others you believe >should be involved because of the leadership they have already demonstrated. >Please circulate this invitation along as you see fit, noting its time >sensitivity. > >If you are not able to attend this retreat, please forward infomation worth >highlighting to bdfutures@aol.com by November 16th and let us know of your >interest in participating in future gatherings. > >We agree we need to have a central calendar of events online. Please advise >Stephanie M. Lanz (sxl@csis.org of the Center for Strategic and International >Studies of those you suggest posting on the csis website (www.csis.org) with >as much advance notice as possible. > >Please let us know of your commitment to participate online on November >20-21st and then keep in touch. We are working on establishing offsite >access, courtesy of Kathryn Burns of SoftBicycle / Group Decision Support >Systems, to include the questions we will address on site. To learn more about >this capability, which we will continue to use, please visit www.gdss.com or >www.softbicycle.com and explore both ConsensusAnywhere and Dashboard. > >We will use same time / same place groupware at the retreat to generate and >document our strategic plan and build our capacity to conduct virtual >conferences. A special thank you to Todd Erickson of CoVision, Inc. for his >tremendous support, to Steve Balkam for his co-facilitation, and to Curt Bury >for his planning assistance and development of an executive briefing in >response to the needs identified at the National Work Group action planning >meeting. > >Many thanks to Sam Love of Public Production Group, for the timely and concise >videotape he created pro bono, interviewing Laurene West, R.N. and Joel >Ackerman of the RX2000 Group. Their observations about the need for >contingency planning by the health care industry are sobering. Laurene >provides a visceral understanding to those who begin with only an intellectual >realization of the social implications of Y2K. Next step... please clarify >target audiences and seek funding for mass production and dissemination as >part of a toolkit. > >To develop individualized, self-paced, competency based multimedia toolkits, >we are seeking sponsors to cover the cost of audiotaping and videotaping >interviews with the leadership gathered at the strategic planning retreat and >beyond. It is critical to balance awareness with a variety of seasoned >perspectives in response to Frequently Asked Questions such as those raised by >a citizen, an elected official, direct service provider, executive staff, >board member or funder. Such multimedia tools will generate a shared vision of >success and help channel energies productively. Ideally, key dialogues will be >added to the sites of national associations for easy online access and audio / >videotapes will be distributed widely via corporate and public library media >centers, executive briefings, and training programs. > >---------------- > >Instead of having a kickoff program for the retreat on Thursday evening, >November 19th, we are encouraging people to attend an already scheduled >Evening Panel Program on "The Status of Year 2000 Federal and Regional >Readiness". This program is preceded by a reception at 6 PM. Both are free. >If you wish to attend the reception and the program, please RSVP as indicated >on the following program announcement. > >It could be very helpful for as many people as possible to attend this panel >program since it should provide us a common grounding in some of the issues >and challenges that are confronting us with Y2K. Please let us know at >bdfutures@aol.com that you will be there. Retreat registrants are invited to >join us after Thursday night program ends at 9:00 pm. in the lounge area of >the Capitol Hilton at 16th and K (regular cash bar) for some informal >networking prior to the formal beginning of the retreat on Friday morning. > > > Invitation to a Program > > Thursday, November 19, 1998 > > "The Status of Year 2000 Federal and Regional Readiness" > >Panelists will be Federal and Regional officials whose responsibilities >include Y2K readiness and contingency planning concerns. > > > Hosted by The Washington Post Company > > Sponsored by the George Washington University Year 2000 Group > > >Panel: > >The Honorable Tom Davis, U.S. House of Representatives, Chairman, Subcommittee >on the District of Columbia, Committee on Government Reform and Oversight >(confirmed) > >Jack Brock, Director, Governmentwide Information Systems, General Accounting >Office (confirmed) > >Donald V. Evans, Director, Department of Infromation Systems & >Telecommunications Montgomery County and Chair of the Chief Information >Officers Committee for Council of Government. (confirmed) > >Suzanne Peck, Chief Technology Officer, District of Columbia (invited) > > >Moderator: > >Robert McLane, The Washington Post Company > >Discussants: > >Stuart Umpleby, Professor and Director of the Research Program in Social and >Organizational Learning (RPSOL), Department of Management Science, George >Washington University > >Paula Gordon, Adjunct Professor and Director of Special Projects, RPSOL, >George Washington University > > >Time: > >6 PM (Reception) >7 - 9 PM (Panel Program) > >Place: > > The Community Room, 9th Floor > The Washington Post Company > 1150 15th St NW (at 15th and L Sts. NW) > Washington, DC > >Directions: > >The Washington Post Company building is accessible from two Metro stations: >MacPherson Square and Farrugut North. > >>From the MacPherson Square station exit at the Vermont Avenue side. Walk up >15th Street to 1150 15th Street. > >>From the Farrugut North station exit on L Street. Turn left on L Street >and walk down to 15th Street. Turn left on 15th Street and the Post at >the corner of 15th and L Streets. > >There is some off street parking and also some street parking is available >after 6:30 p.m. > >The seating capacity of The Community Room is 200. > >Please use to the following form to RSVP to "Wafa Abou-Zaki" ><74563.1454@compuserve.com>. > >You will be notified only if the program is oversubscribed. > >Please feel free to circulate copies of this invitation. > >********************************************************************* ** >To: The George Washington University Y2K Group, >Attention: "Wafa Abou-Zaki" <74563.1454@compuserve.com>: > >____ I plan to attend to October 1 Program. > >____ Please notify me of future programs. > >Name____________________________________________ > >Affiliation_____________________________________ > >E-mail Address__________________________________ > >Phone Number____________________________________ > >Fax Number______________________________________ > >We all look forward to taking this mandatory step forward. Please let me know >if you have any questions, suggestions, or interest in providing funding this >joint venture. We need your support if we are to leverage our efforts in time. > >All my best wishes to each of you, > >Lois >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >Lois R. Saboe, MSW National Y2K Civic Leadership Initiative >President >Business Development Futures >8302 Professional Hill Drive >Fairfax, VA 22031-4611 Help us Help you Help others. > >703-641-8787 >703-641-9853 Fax >bdfutures@aol.com > >P.S. I am resending the attachment sent with the original invitation on >November 4th in MS- Word. It was gibberish for some and is as follows for >those who still have a problem: > >---------------- >NATIONAL Y2K CIVIC LEADERSHIP INITIATIVE > >NATIONAL NETWORK FOR COMMUNITY RESILIENCE > >BACKGROUND > >The National Y2K Civic Leadership Initiative is playing a facilitative role >with the President's Council's for Year 2000 Conversion as part of the >National Work Group for Non-profits and Philanthropic Organizations. In a >full day action planning session on October 15th we agreed to focus on >leadership, funding, community contingency planning, communications, and tools >/ resources. > >The White House Y2K Summit for Foundations to be held on Nov. 5th involves >many at the early stages of understanding the social implications of Y2K. The >hosts hope to generate a pool of resources to support immediate, high impact >collaborative action and ensure community resilience. > >ASSUMPTIONS > >Much of the public, including business leaders who are also civic leaders, >believe Y2K is primarily a technical problem and outside their control. What >can I do? I'm not an expert. > >Once aware of the urgency to fix or work around annual forecasts triggered on >January 1, 1999, businesses and consumers will focus on managing the risks and >avert the repercussions of miscalculated budgets, inadvertent orders, and >database contamination. Denial costs. > >The longer we maintain a robust infrastructure and intact supply chains, the >better we can prepare for contingencies and recover from failures. An ounce >of prevention is worth 2000 cures. > >December, 1998 is the last opportunity for national leaders to launch a highly >credible event that focuses organizations on the January 1, 1999 horizon. Time >flies. > >Y2K leaders nationwide who promote developing community awareness and >resilience must model constructive collaborative action. We get 1000 flowers >to bloom by setting an example. > >STRATEGY > >To help channel resources in a manner that veers decisively away from the path >of too little too late, we propose that those leaders who are focused on Y2K >community resilience initiatives nationwide: > >Meet on Nov. 19- 21st for a professionally facilitated STRATEGIC PLANNING >RETREAT > >Promote COLLABORATION by using electronic meeting software and conference >calls routinely > >Clarify our VISION of the PRIORITIES CONTINUUM from now through recovery > >Form "TIGER TEAMS" of organizations best positioned to successfully mobilize >communities > >Create TOOLKITS, including access to training and technical assistance > >Recommend an INFRASTRUCTURE of key capabilities and events that warrant joint >funding > >Provide KEY MESSAGES to share at a highly visible NATIONAL PUBLIC FORUM in >December > >Effective national leadership will ensure awareness of the urgency and scope >of Y2K in a positive manner. It will engage the public in immediate >constructive action, avert an early wave of disruptions, and foster a >proactive national climate. > >We believe that the general public would prefer to know what to do to achieve >even limited success with a late warning than to be blindsided by events in >early 1999 that they "could have" controlled.

WHAT FOLLOWED IN THE ORIGINAL MSG WERE PAGE AFTER PAGE OF VERY, VERY LONG URLS & FONT CODE -- LARRY

-------------------------------------------------------- Laurence J. Victor / Larry / et http://azstarnet.com/~nuu NUU / ABC_EARTH_2002

"What we all need at this point in human evolution is to learn what it takes to learn what we should learn - and learn it." -- Aurelio Peccei, No Limits to Learning

-- job (jbabinsky@theriver.co), November 13, 1998.

Also see the "Will Discussing Y2K Cause Panic" thread above.

This whole thing is probably the most difficult aspect of the issue. More so than the technical aspects, I believe.

In my rich fantasy life, I can imagine the President going on TV over this coming Thanksgiving holiday and spilling the beans to the nation. Tell it to us like it is, Willie, I believe we can take it. Some low grade panic in a state of "National Emergency" now before things start breaking down may reduce the need later for actually nationalizing industries and putting troops in the streets.

Unfortunately, that's only a fantasy. It ain't gonna happen. Those people (our "leaders") don't have the "cajones" to actually confront a national emergency head on and deal with it in a timely and forceful manner. Just look at the way "the Iraq crisis" has been dragging on for, what, 8 years now? Doesn't this guy (Clinton) realize that this is his opportunity to go down in history as something other than the chickensh*t pariah that he appears to be? If he declares martial law, etc after the fact, his reputation is toast. (well, burnt toast. it's already toast) If he declares a "State of National Emergency" NOW and mobilizes the nation and world to prepare, he may actually be able to finish his term and salvage his reputation.

Unless, of course, there is something else going on, some hidden agenda...

E.?

-- pshannon (pshannon@inch.com), November 13, 1998.

I'm not going to say "I told you so." A lot of people told us so, and now it's happening. The interesting thing is that a congressional commitee's recommendation for Y2k martial law is not THE front page news item on every paper in the country. What does that tell you?

It's a policy of "break it to them gently," from what I can see. Don't want to spook the herd, just get them moving slowly into position. Unfortunately I don't think this can be done without a bank run. Once bank run/market collapse occurs, expect them to really start talking openly about "contingency plans" - including martial law, though that term probably won't be over-used. They will talk "community preparedness" and plan centralized control.

As others have said, we will all be begging for martial law. To make that happen they have to break the news, so we know the danger. But they can't do this until everything is in place, deals are cut, the big insiders divested, etc..

I think we're looking at the next logical phase in a globalist New World Order, and that once martial law is in place, we will never get our Republic back.

I had a dream last night that sports cars were going for $5 each. Didn't see a gas station, though.

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), November 13, 1998.

The liberals controlling the story-by-story format and emphasis in the national media are very accomodating of martial law - perhaps even wanting it - as long as their politically corrupt liberal allies are in charge.

If Reagan were still in Washington, you'd see a panicking fear in the media of martial law.

But if Reagan were still in Washington, you'd not have a Y2K crisis - the government would not be expected to fail. Social order would be expected to be maintained, and martial law not needed - except in the dire emergencies in certain places where it would be handled by the governors as it has been in the past..

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), November 13, 1998.

btw: The "Tip of the Week" doesn't mention the e.o. on "federalism," which isn't dead yet. The new strategy is to compel state governors to enact these federal policies, giving a false appearance of "federalism" - in this case, the policy is the National I.D. card. Soon, across the land, from sea to shining sea, on every street-corner, from every stormtrooper, beatcop and denmother, we will hear these inspirational words: "...let me see your papers."

Here's the lowdown:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/19981113_xex_governors_pu. shtml

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), November 13, 1998.

Reagan was part of the plan. "Left" and "right" are a children's game to them. It's theater. As long as we're divided, blaming eachother, at eachother's throats, they can control us, and they're happy. When will we learn?

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), November 13, 1998.

Oh, for Christ's sake.

You guys sound like non-malevolent versions (I don't think many people here are sexist, racist anti-Semitic extremists) of some people I flamed on the Gary North forum yesterday.

What possible evidence do you have that the government is planning anything evil, that there is any massive "New World Order" conspiracy happening? Surely someone would have leaked it somewhere. There are conscientious objectors everywhere- many of the top members of the German High Command hated Hitler, for example. I doubt that any massive conspiracy such as you seem to believe in, can ever actually be happening. There are enough good men -the Premier of NSW, Bob Carr, is one (even if he's a member of the left-of-centre Labor Party). So was Ted Mack (a right-of-centre Liberal frontbencher who retired one day before he was due to get $4.5 million in pensions and benefits), and undoubtedly a LOT of American politicans.

And please, those black helicopters are a myth. The reason for this, I think, is that we've lost our old enemy the Russians. So Americans are looking for a new bad guy, and they've found The Government. Fanned by shows like the X-Files (I love the show and the movie was brilliant, but it's entertaining FICTION) and no actual evidence, people come up with this stuff. The Gary North extremists are far worse (summary of 2 posts: Me- "I believe people are basically good and the government isn't going to do anything as evil as you say." One of the extremists, in reply- "You're either a radical leftie who should go back to Cuba, or a government propagandist."), but it's paranoid fiction.

It's a symptom, though, regarding the revolutionary theory I was talking about earlier. Namely, the increasing suspicion people have of government. This has happened everywhere else a revolution has happened; Tsarist Russia, Batistian Cuba, Imperial China, etc. This is usually -and in this case, is with these new govt laws- accompanied by increasing restrictions the government is placing. I'm not accusing anyone here of being involved in the collapse of society because these are demographic trends that some theorists say are as inevitable as the tides, just pointing them out.

--Leo

-- Leo (leo_champion@hotmail.com), November 13, 1998.

# # # 19981113

"Leo" is way off base in this arena ...

The "black" helicopters are no MYTH, my friend. I have observed -- with and without binoculars -- deep, deep, deep forest green helicopters ( usually in grouped formations of 3 Hueys each ) heading north-to-south, or south-to-north, as well as circling around downtown Detroit(!), in southeast Michigan! The green is so dark, my friend, that the black markings are illegible. I'm a Vietnam Vet, I know what Hueys look and sound like. I also am familiar with typical military/civilian markings of these craft.

There is no justification found in the body of the U.S. Constitution providing authority for martial law. None! That, is the myth.

There's only consolation in the Y2K scenario whereby governments ( globally ) will be on equal footing with regard to capability. There will be no nuclear launch capability by any government on the planet. To assert otherwise is a ploy to forestall the inevitable and vain attempts to preserve the "power" -- political, that is -- for the elites and their minions.

That is the only solace to be found in the bottom-line of the Y2K echno-Ambush! There is no immunity -- the GREAT EQUALIZER!

Regards, Bob Mangus # # #

-- Robert Mangus (rmangus@mail.netquest.com), November 13, 1998.

Welllll Leo - let me ask you this one:

When has Clinton let something like the "law" stop, hinder, or slow him down before?

Now, if he had, in the past, any indication that he was law-abiding citizen or politician (and not a hypocritical, scheming, law-avoiding liar) I'd believe you.

But show any evidence of this administration not reducing liberties, not expanding government, or of positively and pro-actively following the law.

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), November 13, 1998.

Robert A. Cook:

So close to what I intended to post....no need now.

-- Charles R. (chuck_roast@trans.net), November 13, 1998.

I'd much rather discuss Y2K than politics. But...

I think some kind of declaration of national emergency is going to be necessary if we expect (nearly) uninterrupted electricity and phone service in 2000. True, our government does many things the average citizen would be shocked to know. It's true also that powerful groups work behind the scene to advance their agenda--but then again so does the AMA. At one time or another I've heard about all the conspiracy theories out there, but not all of these can be THE group.

Come on, just how long have you been following this conspiracy thing? I remember very clearly reading c. 1975 that with Rockefeller becoming Vice-President, we should expect "something" to happen to Gerald Ford, Rockefeller would become President, declare a national emergency and suspend the 1976 Presidential election.

I'm not naive. I see what's on WorldNetDaily each day; not because I hate Clinton, but because I see privacy and constitional rights slide further down a slippery slope each day. Not because of a conspiracy, but in a misguided effort to achieve efficiency, to prevent fraud, and because the technology is here now for even a tiny country to kill millions of Americans.

Do you see sinister motives as well behind "Project Abacus" in Canada? Do you think Britain will never again constitutional rights after it declares its Y2K emergency?

One thing Rush Limbaugh said a few years ago that's stuck with me was his comment on these inside groups that supposedly have complete control. Wasn't a triumph of communism supposed to be the tool these groups would use to bring about one government for the planet? Where is communism now?

I fear the left, the right, the zealots and the apathetic. All of them are threats to the individual. Eternal vigilance is required.

-- Kevin (musicmixer@worldnet.at.net), November 13, 1998.

If I was in charge of an ultra secret para-military operation hidden deep within the Pentagon, I would paint all of my helicopters white to fool people.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), November 13, 1998.

Kevin -

There doesn't need be a "conspiracy" any larger than one: one guy in the Oval Office with his pants around his knees who wnats to keep his power,

......and be remembered in the history books.

He doesn't want that legacy to be as a morally bancrupt, corrupt, ludicrous traitor, an incompetent failure propped up by the politically corrupt media and academia like Tammany Hall.

Now, it does help that he is aided by many deluded paranoids who are scared of liberty and frightened by Christianity - but there is no conspiracy theory needed. Only a corruption theory.

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), November 13, 1998.

ROFL Deedah! White helicopters!!!!!!!

As far as national emergency (notice my use of lower case letters) I don't think you can look to see one declared til 1/1/2000. They are all banking (those in the seats of so-called power) til the absolute 11th hour....The emporer has no clothes and the Wizard is a humbug behind a curtain pulling levers attached to gas jets. Same as it ever was (to quote "Talking Heads")

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), November 13, 1998.

"Same as it ever was (to quote "Talking Heads")"

and Lee's Hoagie House

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), November 13, 1998.

Same as it ever was! Uncle..had some nice Dutch beer tonight...thought of you.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), November 13, 1998.

folks you might want to watch it - the person posting as leo has been active on the GN site for a while, including attempts at entrapment through questions concerning illegal posession/use of fully automatic firearms on the relocation forum...

Arlin Adams

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), November 13, 1998.

Entrapment?

I was asking a theoretical question. Why in God's name do you really think I would have any use for an illegal weapon, even assuming I thought I could use it without blowing my own hands off?

Anyway, I agree completely with what Robert Cook said about the "conspiracy of one". I believe Clinton might happily try some dirty tricks, but I don't think there's a global "X-files" type conspiracy.

As for the comment about the dark-green/black helicopters, I have no doubt that the military may use black helicopters. They'd be useful for night operations, perhaps- and I think I may have read somewhere that black objects showed up the least effectively on radar. But I don't think the guys inside are any more than plain military pilots, or -at worst- Military Intelligence or Special Forces (both of which would fit in with the idea of black as a stealthy color, and the notion that the government doesn't like commenting on them-- SF and Intelligence have traditionally been higher on the secrecy scale than conventional operations).

--Leo

-- Leo (leo_champion@hotmail.com), November 13, 1998.

Leo:

Those "black" Whirlybirds are real.

I have seen them "up close and very personal".

S.O.B.

-- sweetolebob (La) (buffgun@hotmail.com), November 13, 1998.

No, no, no ....

Black is only good against visual detection by somebody not using infrared tecnology - obviously only at night. Yep - it does radiate best and so is most effectively seen.

Black is worse than useless daytime -it exaggerates motion and improves contrast against most backgrounds even more than white - in fact flat white, light gray, or light blue is more effective visual camaflauge (-2 sp) daylight when loking from underneath. Course it does look cool - so why not?

And since Clinton's private alphabet armies would be targettted in this country only after non-technological foes (US unarmed citizens) it'd only make sense to make them black.

Against infrared and visual technology in smoke, fog, night, low-light - either snooper scope, IR detectors, or weapons (very sophisticated (-2 sp - again) weapons) the best paint in daytime or against visual detection is the military's latest haze gray colors: include no signs, minimal decals, no black stripes, no big numbers, muted colors with paint that absorb radar and infrared. Minimal exposed metal. Smooth shape, with retracting landing gear if possible, considering everything they carry, that reduces air friction .

You can see any like it at any air show in the country - on any functional military aircraft.

Or on the most sophisticated Canadian stealth geese .....

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), November 13, 1998.

>>There doesn't need be a "conspiracy" any larger than one: one guy in the Oval Office with his pants around his knees who wnats to keep his power, ......and be remembered in the history books.

Now, it does help that he is aided by many deluded paranoids who are scared of liberty and frightened by Christianity - but there is no conspiracy theory needed. Only a corruption theory

Answered by Robert A. Cook<<

Good answer, Robert. But there *is* a conspiracy. It's just not where most people look. Ephesians 6:12

-- Elbow Grease (Elbow_Grease@AutoShop.com), November 13, 1998.

Being totally tangential and non sequitor and disruptive...go see the link I posted about "the lessons learned from geese", at

Beyond 2000: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb134913

Cheap plug,..couldn't resist.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), November 13, 1998.

Personally, I think the government as an organism is too clutz to manage a conspiracy successfully.

But one man can conspire, like Starr did to bring down Clinton, and have the whole confused and gridlocked government body work right into his hands. And ofcourse the poeple too.

No matter. It's paranoia. The government will be as crippled to do anything in 2000 as the population. Bet those black Huey's aren't Y2k compliant.

-- Chris (Catsy@pond.com), November 14, 1998.

Chris - I'm not worried about the black Huey's - they're 60's technolgy, and so could keep flying - just wouldn't have all the nifty techno-gadgets working, but .... probably would not have gas available for a second trip.

....I know! You're just trying to distract us from the geese flying south .... getting ready to displace honset pigeons...drop biological bombs of immense destruction ...

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), November 14, 1998.

Robert,

I have mixed feelings about Clinton. He is certainly no saint, but we could've easily had someone worse nominated and elected.

I always tell people that what's good about Clinton is that he's another John F. Kennedy. What's bad about Clinton is...he's another John F. Kennedy. Anyone see the made-for-TV movie "The Rat Pack"?

It wouldn't help Clinton in the history books to have martial law last any longer than necessary. Regardless of what happens with martial law, Clinton's reputation will be trashed by Y2K, and Al Gore's even more so.

-- Kevin (musicmixer@worldnet.at.net), November 14, 1998.

Leo, you need to do some homework.

Here is your assignment if you care to educate yourself.

Find and 4 or 5 copies of the magazine published by the Council on Foriegn Relations. They are on sale to the public at most large book stores. Read them. Read the words from _thier_ mouths not _ours_. Thier plans are NOT secret, NOT hidden, NOT even obscure.

If you do this it will most assuredly change your view on the NWO.

Go to the source. It is all laid our perfectly clear.

Quit quibling about trivialities like helicopters. They only distract from the truth - thier truth, in thier words.

The Republic is gone.

God help us all.

Greybear

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), November 14, 1998.

Elbow Grease,

Agree with you 100%. The real conspiracy IS described in Ephesians 6:12. It manifests itself as a pride that turns family member against family member, neighbor against neighbor, and country against country. It's a pride that tricks us into thinking our differences are more important than what we have in common.

-- Kevin (musicmixer@worldnet.at.net), November 14, 1998.

Oh,oh. First Craig lets the geese out of the bag, now Donna has figured out how they operate, and Robert has found their pattern. I guess we're back to Big Foots (or is the plural for a species Feet?). From all reports, all we need do is set them free then buy y'all's land in return for the SuperSecret anti-scent formula. And we have more up our sleeves, as necessary... cackle, cackle.

-- Tricia the Canuck (jayles@telusplanet.net), November 14, 1998.

P.S. Are 'honset' pigeons related to quonset huts? (This from the woman who hopes she is whong)

-- Tricia the Canuck (jayles@telusplanet.net), November 14, 1998.

No the quonset huts are the shelters from missplelled Canadianain and Saskatwhateveryoucallit geese droppings that shield the honest pigeons and honest politicians from unspeakable horrors and hot air ... Ooops, gave that one away. Drat. Details, details, its all in the details......well actually below details and above defeet. No, below details, a long way below details and above deheads below details....

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), November 14, 1998.

Leo had me ROLFMAO (Chairman Harris) by saying Bob Carr is especially honest. Shhhheeesh! As for Ted Mack, I think he was quite honest, exactly the reason why he wasn't in Libour or Laberal parties. Mack was quoted in the press as saying something along the lines of "both the major parties (aust) are controlled by different factions of Sydney big business." Sounds pretty honest to me.

-- humpty dumpty (12345,678910,1112@sesamest.com), November 14, 1998.

I wouldn't vote Labor, but I like Carr. He's an intelligent man, even if the media does give him a bit of bad press. He's an idealist, which is bad for political careers these days. Anyway, I got the thing about him being honest from something I heard at a party from an acquaintance who works in political journalism and should know.

On the other hand, there are a lot of dirty vermin who make their way into politics and then prosper. Cheryl Turncoat, for instance- she isn't fit to JOIN a party, let alone be a reasonably important shadow minister. I could easily picture people like her involved in a conspiracy.

Greybeard- interesting that you talk about it in terms of the Fall of the Republic. Probably the most fascinating period of history, one where two of my three heroes (Pompey and Cicero, the third is Alexander the Great) come from, and something I've studied in detail. I'll check up on those references. I don't know how easy those books will be to come by in a Sydney bookshop, but amazon.com is always there.

It strikes me that we need politicians with guts and vision. Not party-workers who spend 20 years working their way up the heirarchy before being rewarded with the chance to go for their own seat, but achievers-- people who have done big things in business first. People who speak multiple languages. But most importantly, CREATIVE people. I don't mean artists or musos, I mean visionaries. People with imagination and vision and thousands of ideas.

A leader is someone who leads. Who stands up and says: "This is what you do. Follow me." As someone who (in high school) never made prefect, but -WITHOUT that authority- achieved more than anyone else in my senior year-, I can say that people are going to follow anyone who does that. If you get up and say "Come on guys, let's do this, here's how and here's why- follow me", then you will get more people backing you AND BETTER RESULTS than a bureaucrat saying "do this. Now."

We need visionaries, not more bureaucrats. We need people who aren't just capable of rocking the boat but hate being in a stable one. We need people who are prepared to make sweeping changes, screw the loud minorities, and do what is better for everyone in the end. We need idealists who place popularity and votes a distant seventh after ideals, results, ideals, results, ideals and results. We need combat leaders who come from the front lines and have better solutions than just throwing more men and money into it.

In the 1990s, Pompey would have been kicked out of West Point in his freshman year for making waves. Cicero would probably be a charity lawyer; Caesar might be high in office (being an unscrupulous asshole), and Crassus..oh, wait a sec. He's currently President.

I retract what I said, if it gave the wrong impression. Our society is in desperate need of massive reform.

--Leo

-- Leo (leo_champion@hotmail.com), November 14, 1998.

Leo,

I have every confidence that our society is getting reformed, from within. Why? Because Y2K is forcing all people, at all levels, to look at what works and what does not work.

It is a waste of time to try and change government, or individual opinions, at this time. It is NOT a waste of time to take actions which calmly mobilize a country to prepare for something, that daily, and quite clearly crosses all national boundaries and all ideologies. It is time to create global community, not divisiveness. Its not longer them against us. We are the they we so fear.

Let it go and start focusing your energies on positive solutions for what looks to be the most potentially catastrophic event in human history, or not, if we all prepare and help one another. (Yes Jack, Im still an optimist).

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 14, 1998.

Leo,

To which Caesar do you refer? Specific is Terrific!

Also, it is through my long stint as a bureaucrat that I learned that many of those silly conspiracy theories are only silly because they underestimate the outrageousness of the system and what the "good guys" are capable. In the interest of the nation, the allies, etc..

You ain't seen nothing 'til you've been out in the garden and happen to look up at what sounds like nothing more than a rush of wind to see one of those black helicopters rise up over the treetops (Whisper Mode is well named).

-- Arewyn (nordic@northnet.net), November 14, 1998.

Oh, and I too have seen the helicopters in Sedona, and other places. They exist. Lots of other things do too. Also seen a very strange circular object hovering. That's a different story.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 14, 1998.

To Diane and Donna

It is interesting how the two of you are frequently (and in an arrogant and patronizing tone) telling others to focus on y2k and away from political discussions (unless you yourselves have a political point to make).

Not everyone shares (or has fallen for) the utopian concept of NWO and socicialism. Just look at Mexico for a glimpse at what your utopia will be like...the haves and the have nots...no in betweens, no middle class. The "Goals 2000" school program that has invaded the public school systems across the country is preparing our children for this socialist system. They are not being educated, they are being prepared and programed to be good little worker bees and sheep!

There are more issues at hand than just y2k...whish will also have an effect on the outcome of y2k. Your telling everyone to look over here and not at the funny guy behind the curtain is dangerous and destructive advice...and sounds like socialism (watered down communism) to me.

Texas Terri

-- Texas Terri (TYSYM@AOL.com), November 14, 1998.

Terri,

The idea of a New World Order in the terms of what others would like it to be, isn't remotely what I wish for nor will I participate in it.

I've observed that people who use information do so in one of two ways -- either to control people or to empower them. I'm a teacher. I've always been one, in many ways. I am FOR individuals and civilizations learning to be the best, most wonderful, creative, loving and caring they can be. The way the system is "set up" now, I don't see that. I only see the potential, because, at some point everyone on this planet will have to face what is "really important" in their lives, and for their world.

This planet is dying. Y2K is just the start of the choices we will be faced with.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 15, 1998.

"This planet is dying."

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH I HATE THIS STATEMENT! (nothing personal Diane)

The *planet* is not dying, the system within the planet that lets us exist here is dying. Vast difference. Even if the Earth becomes a chunk of rock with no life on it, it is still here.

Rick

-- Rick Tansun (ricktansun@hotmail.com), November 15, 1998.

I'm referring, of course, to Julius Caesar. Octavian was a comparatively decent guy who fought and defeated that Cicero-murdering bastard Antony.

So the "New World Order" is something like this: There is a class of the ultra-rich, the powerbrokers. These people have a handful of executive lieutenants, who also live damned well. Everyone else is lower or middle class; there is a HUGE gap between these guys and the "haves". Someone not born a "have" cannot become one, not even theoretically. There will be the delusion, like the lottery in 1984, that it can be done, but that will only be a deliberate myth perpetuated by the elite class to keep people working hard.

Makes sense to me. I was talking to some friends not so long ago, saying that I wanted to be a member of the ruling elite. They seemed to believe that it was impossible; "other people do that, not us."

And if that's the case...y2k would be an actively good thing. A chance for an intelligent populare Republican to raise a good deal more than three legions, to sweep these bastards out of office and in front of a military court.

--Leo

-- Leo (leo_champion@hotmail.com), November 15, 1998.

You all had best listen to Uncle Deedah. He's not joking.

Do any of you remember a Blackhawk heliocopter that went down in the Northern Iraqi "no fly" zone from "friendly fire"?

Do any of you know what color it was?

Try WHITE with BIG BLUE LETTERS that said, UN!

Watch the "news" footage a little more closely. They're right in front of your eyes!

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), November 15, 1998.

O.K. I missed something here. Maybe I scanned too quickly. What's the deal with the helicopters? Where are they and why is that a problem? Now that you mention it though, I live close to Louisville. Granted, it's close to Fort Knox. But. I've lived here all my life. I have never seen the planes flying overhead that I see now. I've been wondering aloud for months now why all these cargo-transport planes keep flying overhead. Did something change at Knox or did something just change. Haven't a clue yet.

-- margie mason (nar3mike@aol.com), November 15, 1998.

My, hasn't this thread been stretched to the limit?

To: Robert Mangus RE: Black Helicopters

Robert, the helicopters you have observed flying around the skys of of Detroit are, in reality, the remnants of the Edel Ford branch of the family - still endlessly searching for the 'lost dream'.

To: Leo RE: The Widening Gap

Leo, it's too bad the book "Dare They Call It Conspiracy" has long ago gone out of print. It was written under the auspices of the John Birch Society, or was that the Birch John Society? Get REAL!!!

-- Bob Walton (waltonb@kdsi.net), November 16, 1998.

Has anyone heard about the results of this meeting?

Could the 60 minutes broadcast and other media info also be the result??

-- alurker (nobody@nowhere.com), December 06, 1998.

Absolute black hole about it.

The 60 minutes story was planned and shot (as best can be told from the dates used in the interviews on film) about mid Oct. Probably a coincidence.

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), December 08, 1998.