Y2K, Firearms, Metaphysics and Personal Choicegreenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
Y2K, Firearms, Metaphysics and Personal Choice
Sheesh!! Hot topic and hot-under-the-collar people on the earlier "Firearms and personal protection" thread posted beginning 10/19/98.
Personally, just to make my stand...
I plan to be in a forest, able to walk silently wearing Y2K compliant moccasins, climb the tallest tree, shoot my deadly force self-made arrow at a squirrel that Id rather feed than eat, bless the little guy for nourishing me and mine, and let you survivalist dudes with your clumping combat boots, stomp through the forest floor below clanking your rifles and handguns in readiness. You wont even know Im there. If by chance, one of you guys with your hard-won egos and closed hearts happens to look up my tree and shoots me down, so be it. Id rather go through the light tunnel and go Home rather than live on a planet steeped in FEAR.
Better luck next life.
P.S. To address the inevitable comments that undoubtedly will arise about my metaphysical persuasions ... If some of you gentlemen and ladies spent half the time really investigating and intelligently researching the Life Beyond Death issues as you do the Y2K Domesday scenarios, you might choose to live your lives differently, plus face your Y2K choices a lot differently. (R. D..Herring I am breathing again now and Robert A. Cook, P.E. I am reviewing the older threads -- thanks for the suggestion).
Yes. I have done my homework over the past eleven years. I was hugged by an Angel and it got me real curious. I jumped into studying -- everywhere -- trying to understand how such a thing could happen. In 1987, I thought I understood my world, my God, and my high-tech job pretty well. Surprise. I knew nothing. Only what the status-quo society believed was true. Oddly enough, it helped that my Dad was dying then. I was compelled to investigate issues such as: What really happens when we die, and What is my lifes purpose on this planet? Over time and personal experience, I got my answers and day-to-day bio-feedback. Once you really start looking, youll find. Ive lead a fascinating life since then. Not easy, but I dont regret it.
And, let me make one other thing perfectly clear (Pop Quiz -- What historical figure, now dead person, said that?)... for the fundamentalist crowd ...
Jesus Christ was a Jew. His name was Yeshua (spelling). He was a really great teacher and had a wonderful way of getting across his teachings in ways people could apply to their daily lives. He was also a voice in the wilderness, of his day, trying to get people to really look at their lives and the choices they were making, or taking on, imposed by others with bigger guns. (Sound like Y2K?) Problem is, to understand what he was saying, you really need to investigate between the historical/hysterical lines of our modern-day, many-times-through-the-centuries-edited-and-rewritten-for-personal-and-religious-agendas Bibles.
Do your personal homework. Your life depends on it. Our planet and the way we all handle Y2K -- together -- does.
-- Diane J. Squire (email@example.com), October 26, 1998
I know that this will probably stir up a lot of controversy, but I have always favored a .44 magnum revolver over a .45 automatic, but only using the special load ammo. This gives the near-.45 large caliber, the heavy frame (since it was built for magnum loads), and the easy-to-point-and-shoot double action revolver.
-- Jack (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 26, 1998.
You'll have to answer to your maker for that when the time comes, Jack. If Jesus were here today, he'd packing a .45 1911A.
-- E. Coli (email@example.com), October 26, 1998.
The 44 I prefer and intend to apply is the one found in Matthew 5.
-- Faith Weaver (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 26, 1998.
.44's and .45's are nice. I personally prefer something with a bit more range...say a 30.o6 or Mini-30 7.62X.39, several Old and New Testament scriptures come to mind, (Didn't Moses part the red Sea with help from a heavenly .50 Cal Browning?) but I like the secular reference provided by one of our own great Presidents: "Speak softly and carry a big stick". I think a .308 Weatherby fits that description.
I've already responded to Diane once tonight, and I would suggest she take care in sounding "holier-than-thou" because of a personal revelation. As far as the purpose of life...it's right there in scripture, if you let the Bible interpret itself. Sounds to me Diane that you discount the Bible due to the myriad translations and misuses of texts. Fair enough to the latter, but discounting the whole book is not the answer. The only knowlege of who we are and what our destiny is is written in there. Have you considered that Y2K will be allowed by the Almighty as part of His plan of salvation? We cannot save ourselves, as we will soon learn that man cannot even govern himself apart from God. But that's a story for another day.
-- Mike Deering (email@example.com), October 26, 1998.
God, Diane, RIGHT ON! You put in words what I have been feeling when reading these ridiculously awful posts about fear and guns and panic. I will never own a gun. The so-called "men" on this site will give you a lot of trouble over your views, and try to out-macho you in all ways (witness the flippant, inconsiderate Jack, for example). Don't let them get to you! I am a man, and I support you 100 percent, and I think, to quote a gun-loving dude, that these guys are p - u - s - s - i - e - s. A few women will give you a hard time, too, as they are ruled by fear. Some of them like to scream "GUNS SAVES LIVES." Not only do they have a poor grasp of what guns really do (they kill lives), they have a problem with grammar. You are a trail blazer. Kudos to you Diane! Now sit back and wait for the avalanche of fear and hate you'll receive for daring to suggest that gun owners are ruled by fear.
-- Sydney Benson (Sydney@Meera.com), October 26, 1998.
Way back, I bought a Marlin .444 lever action. Took it out to an old quarry in the country to get used to it and zero it in. Tacked a bullseye on a 6" aspen sapling growing there. Backed off about 50 feet and popped it. No 10 ring, but I hit the paper about in the center of the tree trunk. Tree fell down. Broke at the impact point. Went up to see what happened. It was spring, the sap was running, and the impact had (I figured) turned enough of the sap into steam to burst the trunk. Hmmm, I said. The tubular magazine only held 4 rounds, though. Guess it would do for game hunting in brush. Do not try this at home.
-- Tom Carey (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 27, 1998.
Tom, Way back, I used to practice archery. In a competition, out of six arrows, I hit five in the bullseye, the other was just outside that zone.
Despite my ability to shoot a moving target, I promise not to aim it at you and Jack and E. Coli and Mike and ...
There. Thats my personal commitment, in writing, to Y2K Human Survival.
And another thing, my ammo is a renewable resource. Yours runs out.
-- Diane J. Squire (email@example.com), October 27, 1998.
Diane, I see I've given the wrong impression. I was really appalled when the tree trunk exploded. Figured most readers here would extrapolate to parallel effects on bodies. Don't have that .444 any more. Nor any other weapon.
I've said elsewhere on this BB-- no matter how many bodies I left in the yard, or hanging on the razor wire, there'll always be another bunch coming down the road and sooner or later I'll run out of ammunition. Plus I can't stay awake forever. The bunker mode didn't work on Saipan or Iwo Jima, why would it work here? Not for me.
The bunker types might want to consider that catapults are not that hard to build, and any bunker not made of concrete can be dealt with by throwing burning materials from a safe distance.
That said, your mention of bow hunting reminded me of the compound bow. With that one could hunt (for food) without advertising your presence to the world. That might be a consideration here.
-- Tom Carey (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 27, 1998.
Just WHAT is the problem? "Y2K, Firearms, Metaphysics and Personal Choice". Oh, OK, so I left out the "Y2K" -- but isn't that sort of IMPLIED on this forum??? (Sydney? Siddddneeee?? If thats your real name, that explains everything....)
-- Jack (email@example.com), October 27, 1998.
Sorry Tom, I did equate your description with a marksmans satisfaction at seeing something blow-up in front of him (or her). There are a few others who seem really into their guns. How about placing the same amount of attention on your neighbors, your communities, your country, your world. Besides, Im rather partial to trees.
As youll see on later threads, Im dismayed at the amount of bunker mentality -- sanitized by the label of personal protection -- that Ive seen portrayed on this forum. Granted, its not everyone.
Im also highly impressed with the insightful statements Ive read so far, in just a few days time. At this moment I feel like Ive been glued to my computer trying to sort through the sifting sands of Y2K and figure out just what the H*ll is going on!! Im tired. Im not sleeping. I suspect everyone of you has gone through this when you personally recognized the magnitude of the situation too.
I just moved back out of the woods into sub-urban Silicon Valley. The home of Y2K. (Oh, joy). You think Im not more than a little concerned? The folks on their way to work are wondering if they should stop off for a single or a double latte. The ones staying home are watching Martha Stewart on T.V. !!! Just the thought of giving up my morning latte sinks me! (I am being ridiculous here). Here I thought Id just create a nice little life, get a job or consult, get money ahead -- since Im dead broke -- and then figure out where I really want to live. My world just turned upside down, quivered and quaked, and its sunny outside. Im a native Californian. Earthquakes used to be fun. (More on that topic later). Im trying to decide if Y2K is an global hurricane, a U.S. Tsunami, a localized tidal wave, the big one, or a rain storm with thunder and some lightening. (Translation -- tempest in a teapot)? Its not looking that way.
I am VERY concerned that if this Y2K Forum --yes, Jack, it is one -- is a representative sample of just a portion of the thinking going on, or that will go on by next year, we are all in BIG trouble. That alarms me Big Time.
We do have another choice here. We do not have to arm to the teeth and spit-in-our-neighbors-eye. I do not say that you dont have a right to your gun. I would not, surprisingly, advocate taking it away from you -- ever. I would hope that you choose not to use it. That we ALL do.
I would hope that we collectively choose a different ending to the global Y2K production we are about to stage. The audience isnt sitting out front yet, were still constructing the scenery, getting our props together and checking out the lighting. What are we choosing to produce here? Apocalypse Now? or How Earth Survived Y2K Gracefully. Are we thinking of next year or seven generations from now?
-- Diane J. Squire (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 27, 1998.
Diane, since you currently have so much free time on your hands, you may find a lot of what you have asked about in the archived threads. You will find that yes, we are worried, Y2K fears haunt us in our dreams, and that our lives tend to be pretty non-chalant and mainstream -- i.e., "otherwise" normal. A lot of us DO NOT see Y2K as having anything but a tragic ending, but then again many see Y2K as either beng a no-biggie, or even a stepping stone to Greater Things. Also, for whatever it is worth, I think that the archived threads will verify that there has been more talk about firearms in the past week then there probably has in past three months. It is easy to let a relatively minor facet of Y2K get the upper hand if we are not careful. And time is so short.
-- Jack (email@example.com), October 27, 1998.
You wrote "Im a native Californian. Earthquakes used to be fun. (More on that topic later). Im trying to decide if Y2K is an global hurricane, a U.S. Tsunami, a localized tidal wave, the big one, or a rain storm with thunder and some lightening."
I too am a native Californian (yes, some of us are born here and some of us have no desire of being in the entertainment industry). I think y2k can be all of these events you've mentioned.
The bunker mentality is an excellent observation. What we really need prior to these events is a mass campaign to bring about a synergy within the populous. If this doesn't happen I fear we're doomed to infighting with our neighbors and that is an invitation to being conquered by outside forces.
If we don't stand as a country regardless of idiology and politics we don't deserve to exist in our current capacity. It's time for a change.
I think it was Thomas Jefferson who wrote to the affect that a little revolution every once in a while is a good thing. In essence, we've seen our personal liberties and freedoms eroded by a selfish government and our in complacent behavior and our sense of community degraded to the point where thoughts of self preservation cloud the mind and twist the brain.
What's on the horizon? Our shotgun will be at our head just as the nations pants are down around it's ankles.
Think about it people. If there is a serious threat to your life and the lives of your friends, your families then you need to consider this. This threat isn't from your neighbor who might need some food or toilet paper or a drink of water.
Our defenses will be degraded and vulnerable. There are those both within our borders and around the globe who might chose this time to strike.
It serves all our interests to band together with our neighbors like those who gave us this country did. Talk to your neighbors and get them prepared. Form plans, make contingencies.
If we fail, we will be divided and vulnerable.
Thanks Diane. ----------------------------------------------
-- Michael Taylor (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 27, 1998.
Why such a bitter attitude towards those of us who own guns? There are bad apples in any group of people, gun owners or non-owners. How can you, a hunter who uses a bow, be spiritually superior to a hunter who uses a gun? Is there something holy about a bow that I am unaware of? Your post for the most part seems written by an intelligent individual, what makes you buy into the 'all gun owners are evil' stereotype?
Not only do they have a poor grasp of what guns really do (they kill lives), they have a problem with grammar.
I am not a teacher, nor am I a grammarian, but they kill lives seems to be a somewhat awkward way to make your point. Try it with one of these words: Stop, Take, Extinguish, End, or Terminate.
My life is not ruled by fear, but the tone and venom in your post makes me curious as to what it is that rules yours.
-- Uncle Deedah (email@example.com), October 27, 1998.
I think it was Mao Tse Tung who said, "Freedom comes from the muzzle of a gun" He was right. If not for firearms we would all still be surfs. A gun enabled the humble peasent or guildsman to be able to take down a warrior knight who had spent his whole life in training at arms. The powerful do not give up power because they are good guys, it must be wrested from them. I assure you that the IMF will soon give Russia a lot more money. Not because we are nice, but because they have all those missles and nothing to lose. We would not have a 40 hour work week if not for unions. Children would still work if not for unions. They went on strike, fought, terrorized and all the ugly things we don't like to think about today. I don't know who said this but it is true. You don't take a knife into a gunfight. (not even an arrow Diana)
-- Bill Solorzano (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 27, 1998.
Jack. Im not an old threader.
From the way it looks, it would take until Y2K to read all the posts. Im representative of the Y2K toddlers -- this week -- that are going to be looking for information in ever increasing numbers. Few of them are going to take the time to weave their way into total understanding. They are going to decide what to personally do based upon what they see up front. If all we show them is our guns and bunkers, WE ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM NOT THE SOLUTION.
Michael Taylor I applaud you for recognizing that we have more than one option here! Not recognizing that is what will doom us.
More of my thoughts were posted down on the second copy of The Big Picture & Personal Preparedness (Mike Deering, 1998-10-26) -- you might choose to check it out.
Uncle Deedah, I dont buy into the idea that all gun owners are the bad guys. In fact, I actually support ones right to own one. Amazing, huh? What I have a real hard time with is peoples total focus on Its me against the world. I have a problem when people get ready to address their FEAR with guns.
Bill. The powerful do not give up power because they are good guys, it must be wrested from them? Silly me. Here I just thought they screwed up so bad and made themselves so obnoxious that they gave everybody a reason to want to take them down. If I had the research time, I probably could come up with examples of groups working together that didnt resort to violence. I suspect there was some in the Suffragette movement -- not a good choice. (Besides all they wanted to do was Wash that mans egotism and arrogance right out of their hair). Lets see. How about landing a human on the moon? Also, I dont walk into gunfights. I look for ways to cry PAX, and talk about what we have in common and why we can work together. Just call me irresponsible.
Guys, I REALLY believe that our thoughts create our reality, and our communities reality, and so on, and so on. What reality are your thoughts creating? What will the Y2K Newbies believe?
-- Diane J. Squire (email@example.com), October 27, 1998.
OK, fair enough. It is tough to shoot your way out of fear, no doubt. Fears must be faced square on, eye to eye, get back on the horse. I encourage nobody to arm themselves if they are not comfortable doing so. Each must weigh the cost/risk against the possible benefits should the worst come to pass. I applaud your wish for a better and more peaceful world, I want one of those too. In the meantime, there are a lot of nasty people out there, who will not think twice about taking what they want by force. I choose to have the option of meeting that force in a like manner, should it become necessary. I also agree that our thoughts create our reality, but only to a point. If that were entirely true we would not be worried about Y2K, the Titanic would have served its time and been sold for scrap iron, and so on. Does my thought, however tightly held, that I want to hang on to my wallet cancel out the thoughts of the man with a crowbar who thinks it is his for the taking? Like you, I do not fear my death, but all the pain and suffering near the end gives me the willies. (no Richard, not those willies)
This is a constantly evolving discussion, the firearm thing is fairly recent. It will evolve into something new as well.
PS, Gandhi would be a good example of peaceful change. The other side of the fence has a cast of characters too large to list.
-- Uncle Deedah (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 27, 1998.
And the Sufragette Movement would NOT be a good example as they had their share of riots, and counter riots.
-- Chuck a Night Driver (email@example.com), October 27, 1998.
Diane said, "Guys, I REALLY believe that our thoughts create our reality, and our communities reality, and so on, and so on. What reality are your thoughts creating?"
OK, I'm thinking there won't be any more drive-by shootings in Houston. I'm thinking that 13 year olds won't set 8 year olds on fire. I'm thinking a 19 year old won't shoot a 12 year old in the back for his bicycle. I'm thinking looters won't steal someone's dishes while they are evacuated from their home due to flooding. I'm thinking a teenager won't shoot the mother of a 6 year old in front of her (yesterday morning.) Diane, your ideas are for a perfect world. I wish it was. My wishing and "thinking" won't make it so. Come stay in Houston for a month and then tell me all about what a great city this will be in January 2000. All of the examples I gave have occured within the last 4 months and they are but the tip of the iceberg. Several people die violently in this city every day, and these are "the best of times." I am informing everyone who will listen about possible problems, and I plan to have plenty of food to share with family, neighbors, etc., but if someone kicks in my front door, they have forfeited their life. And I certainly won't be using a bow and arrow.
-- Gayla Dunbar (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 27, 1998.
What do these 4 have in common?
-- Just me (email@example.com), October 28, 1998.
To get as far away from the above posted topic as possible, I submit that labor unions suck. They had a place in our society before things such as the minimum wage, child labor, etc. came into being. Now all they do is serve as a loaded gun to the industries of the nation. Industries will not locate in my state because we do not have right to work legislation in place. I think it absurd that an auto worker with no education whatsoever can make such incredible wages. I forget the exact percentage, but an astounding amount on the price of a car simply goes to pay the benefits that these unions have taken by force from the industry. The next time you hear one of your fellow union employees piss and moan about industries moving out of the country to Tiajuana or some other border town, think about the ridiculous wages and jobs that exist simply because some labor union negotiated it that way. Hell, my wife and I have 3 master's degrees between us and we probably don't make as much as some of those greedy union workers.
Sorry to vent on such an unrelated topic.
Guns have a place in our society. They are abused just as sex, drugs and rock and roll is abused. The problem with their abuse is that innocent people die. Handguns are a problem that should be dealt with some way. Maybe we should let labor unions negotiate that also. Hey, get off Diane's back. We are supposed to welcome her to this forum and thank her for her OPINION. The last time I checked we still have the right to voice that part of our brain.
Labor Unions Still Suck.
-- Slick (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 28, 1998.
Whew! A lot of frustration steaming forth here! Is there anyone who feels as I do: take action! Put your "money" where your mouth is! Many of us get frustrated because we feel helpless about "fixing" a problem, and Y2K appears to be the mother of all unfixable problems; at least not by 010100. I've assuaged some of my frustration by doing several things: informing family, friends, etc., urging my HUD subsidized senior complex manager to get a food bank going here, and recently I spoke at a city/county AARP meeting, giving out Y2K resource lists, providing tapes of the Atlanta Y2K Preparedness Expo. I'm not a member of this chapter but next, I'm going to send my contact there some printed info from a couple sites. I will urge them to form a small Y2K delegation and get meetings with the mayor, the fire and police chiefs about setting up help centers in this city (food, water, paper goods, etc.) There were 60 or so seniors at the AARP meeting, and I urged them to go to their spiritual leaders and get such help centers ready. In 1965, I lived about 20 miles from South Central L.A. when the Watts riots occurred. A U.S. marshall told my husband he should have a gun available. Thankfully, the riot did not spread that far. A recent PBS documentary showed how much worse the situation is in South Central nowadays. Currently, I live about 5 miles from such an area. I'm not a "do-gooder"; infact, I can be pretty self-centered. But, I am going to continue to assuage my Y2K frustration by doing what I can to help others prepare. Doesn't doing so help assure my own (self-centered) protection? What are you doing in your areas? Please just don't sit there waiting with your arsenal!!!
-- Holly Allen (Holly3325@juno.com), October 28, 1998.
You're right Slick.
Welcome Diane, and any other newbees.
-- Uncle Deedah (email@example.com), October 28, 1998.
You ARE taking some positive actions. Have you found links to web- sites with contingency planning strategies? Ive been asking that question over and over on this forum, some people are helpful, yet a good percentage are throwing rocks. Im in the stage of doing my homework and trying to find out what I can do to help my new/old community. I feel the need to present some kind of solutions, after figuring this out, rather than just yelling fire!
-- Diane J. Squire (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 28, 1998.
I guess this thread is as good as any other. You've been asking about web-sites with contingency plan ideas. I don't know how many sites you already know about, but start with these if you haven't seen them yet:
-- Buddy Y. (DC) (email@example.com), October 28, 1998.
Diane, check out Mother Earths Homestead Corner
-- Your Mother (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 28, 1998.
Diane: Hello, to a fellow native Californian. I sure have enjoyed reading the stuff you have stirred up, even if I haven't agreed with EVERYthing on one side or the other. But such is the way of things, i have really appreciated the uproar. How refreshing! Anyway, to the point, have you heard of or visited the Beyond 2000 Discussion Board- It seems a place you might find to be a nice dovetail to this forum- this one being more focussed on the immediate crisis type thang, and the other forum being more focussed on the rebuilding wish list type of thing. Both are important for different reasons.
-- Damian Solorzano (email@example.com), October 29, 1998.
Re unions; I also appologize for off topic remarks but this one gets me. I have been on both sides of the fence both as a labor union local president and as a business owner.
Unions have fought to raise and maintain the standard of living in this country. I believe it is the highest in the world? That did not come from shareholders who would keep the money for themselves instead of it going to workers pay and fringe benefits. In addition, non-union worker of this country have consistantly benefited from unions in that they were paid wages commensurate with their union counterparts. Non-union corporations had to match going union rates or they would not have been able to keep any employees. Non-union workers who say they don't need unions to make as much money are sadly mistaken as to the why.
BTW; *we* are a union, here and now on this forum.
Killin off the unions has and will continue to lower the standard of living for everyone in this country. Union or non-union; all individuals lose the benefit of their collective barganing power. As this happens, more and more people will be forced to deal with life on their own. Life is not kind when you are alone.
In addition; I personally have trained and assisted women to take an equal place in the workplace. I wasn't *required* to do this so please don't try to flame me as being against women's right to work. It is a case of simple logic however, that if you double the workforce, employers will have twice the choice with more people willing to work for less. It becomes an employers marketplace. Womens wages don't raise to the previous level of the men as was the want. Men's wages come down. Down to a level produced by the new mix and availablility of workers.
Likewise with free trade agreements. When we homoginize our culture with others, don't think everyone will rise to our level. *We* go down again to yet another level. Unions have always fought against this. It isn't the unions that are allowing corporations to make greater profits by going elsewhere.
Lastly; at any one point in the past there was a certain average number of dollars in everyones pocket. Ten years later there was twice as much money in everyones pocket. Where did it come from? Not because the unions insisted on it. If it wasn't in circulation, it wouldn't have been able to be paid, no matter how long the strike. It was put in circulation by the FRB, etc. I don't claim to be an economics wiz but does it take one? If inflation is a bad thing, why is it permitted to happen? Who *prints* those extra dollars? It seems someone has a reason, and possibly a good one, for doing so, but unions just try to keep up with those Joneses.
IMHO; to blame unions for our problems is to shoot ones self in the foot.
-- Floyd Baker (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 29, 1998.
Thank guys for the great links. Just looking at the topics on Beyond 2000 gives me some hope. Think I'll walk in the forest before the next round of reading. Need to get centered again. Also my eyes are too pink both from hanging with the computer too much and dropping a few tears.
-- Diane J. Squire (email@example.com), October 31, 1998.