a prediction of economic collapsegreenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
found this letter which says pretty much the way i feel about the economy. what do you think?
check it out here: http://www.homestead.com/PLANET5/ECONOMY.html
-- chris davidson (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 24, 1998
In the article you provided a link to, the following statement was made:
"Kenneth Starr will be happy to add this [Y2K] to his agenda of ways to crucify the President of the United States. Ironically, President Clinton is one of the few leaders who is actually doing something to lessen the impact of the approaching economic disaster."
Ignoring the obligatory liberal Democratic rant against the satanic Ken Starr, please explain to me exactly what President Clinton has done to lessen the impact of Y2K. I'm sorry, but I obviously haven't been keeping up with his efforts well enough.
When (and if) future history books are written, I think you'll see this president derided as the weakest and most corrupt leader this nation has ever had. The most powerful man in the world has used his power to satisfy his own lusts, not look out for the well-being of our nation.
-- Nabi Davidson (email@example.com), October 24, 1998.
Well, Clinton *did* give a speech in which he at least nominally recognized that we've got problems, and signed into law a bill which will hopefully make it easier for organizations to share remediation information. Not much, but this is more than most leaders have done. He also approved an appropriation of $3.4 billion for federal y2k remediation, which is more than he asked for.
As for 'corrupt', either you are unduly offended by Clinton's womanizing, or ignorant of history. Going back a little, Reagan's administration holds the record for most federal officials convicted of various offenses. Nixon is second. Most historians give the corruption 'award' to the Warren G. Harding administration -- at that time, even the courts were too corrupt to convict, and every principle was for sale cheap. Second place alltime probably goes to Andrew Johnson ('to the victor belong the spoils').
Local governments are notorious. In most places, you can't even get nominated unless you're part of the local good-ole-boy network.
-- Flint (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 24, 1998.
Nabi, Without disagreeing with your assessment of Clinton's grotesque Y2K inaction, or his "lustful behavior", I think the writer was referring to Clinton's economic policies in general. I'd actually disagree with the writer there, to some extent, but that's another story... scott
-- Scott Johnson (email@example.com), October 24, 1998.
response to Nabi "Nazi" Davidson:
I beleive the point being made in the article is that the government should NOT be responsible for the negligence of these corporations to take care of their own backyards. Clinton senses this irresponsibility of Big Business and although he is constantly being challenged by selfish Republicans, he has managed to FINALLY get them to approve $18 billion for the IMF, which will at least help to ease the disaster which is coming to the desperate regions of the world, who also happen to possess valuable resources which America needs. Republicans JUST DON'T GET IT. We ALL live on this planet together. To continually hoard the wealth to themselves while alienating the rest of the world will just NOT work. Ask Bill Gates if he is going to use his disgusting $50 billion bank account to assist any of the countries that he relies on for his business. I DOUBT IT.
-- chris davidson (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 24, 1998.
My dear Chris:
The next time you feel moved to call someone a NAZI, please remember that it stood for National SOCIALIST German Workers' Party. That's ri- i-ight- NAZIS WERE SOCIALISTS. They said so themselves. Of course you might think that socialism has changed in the past few decades... but some of us know better. In fact, I have no trouble remembering that every time I see Hillary on teevee.
As to the causes of the upcoming economic collapse, it can be laid squarely at the feet of that (Democrat led) government you seem to cherish so much. The government that creates debt- based money with reckless abandon, and flings billions of dollars of it away on all sorts of useless causes (corporate welfare included, mind you). The government that preaches a singleminded reliance on GOVERNMENT as the solution to all problems, the government that JUST DOESN'T GET IT. Because government is the PROBLEM, and an unsupported faith in government will only result in the realization of that problem in a tangible way for ALL the people who live under it. Hang around and keep your eyes open- you'll see what I mean.
Of course you probably won't GET IT when the crash comes, and you'll find a way to blame it on THOSE DEMONIC REPUBLICANS and those LARCENOUS BUSINESSMEN. And you'll find a way to whine to SOMEONE IN DC to come and help you and save you and feed you and keep those roving bands of looters (who are all probably REPUBLICANS and BUSINESSMEN) away from your poor little government loving self.
Wake up and smell the coffee, child. The days when "feeling your pain" made a difference are over, over, over. The world out there is the same big ugly place it's always been. And it's coming soon to a neighboorhood near you. You'd best get ready.
ps- I'm not a Republican either, cause politics no longer matters. Only preparedness matters.
-- nemo (email@example.com), October 24, 1998.
Chris: You said --
".....the point being made in the article is that the government should NOT be responsible for the negligence of these corporations to take care of their own backyards."
.....he (Clinton)has managed to FINALLY get them to approve $18 billion for the IMF, which will at least help to ease the disaster which is coming to the desperate regions of the world,"
[snip political diatribe]
Isn't there an inherent problem with stating that the government should not be responsible for corporations, and then turning around and applauding the expenditure of $18 big ones that will be throuwn down rat holes in a desperate attempt to shore up corporations in other parts of the world?
In other words, the American citizen should be expected to carry the load for the mistakes of Japanese corporations, Korean corporations, Malaysian corporations, and so forth ad naseum, but American corporations should toe the line.
I agree that US corporations should be responsible. So should foreign governments and foreign corporations.
You're not looking for corporate justice, you're looking for big(er) government......and more taxation, and more meddling, all in the name of even bigger government.
-- rocky (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 24, 1998.
Chris said, "We ALL live on this planet together. To continually hoard the wealth to themselves while alienating the rest of the world will just NOT work."
I'll bet you a Baygen Radio that he's still in school or just fresh out. That is exactly the crap curriculum that is being spoon fed to our children today. I should know. After all, "It Takes a Village," remember?
-- Gayla Dunbar (email@example.com), October 24, 1998.
You start you answer to me with the following classic liberal manuever: name-calling.
>>Response to Nabi "Nazi" Davidson
Just for your information, Chris, most Jews don't particularly like being called "Nazis," given the historical fact that six million of my people were slaughtered by them just a few short years ago.
As for "not getting it," you appear to be the one who doesn't get it: The IMF loans have primarily been designed to bail out the rich and wealthy who have made bad investments in these "poor" foreign countries suffering from economic troubles.
BTW, for the record, I'm not a Republican, selfish or otherwise. The only good thing about Y2K is that it is going to render all these things you seem to hold dear obsolete.
-- Nabi Davidson (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 24, 1998.
As someone who's been on both sides of the political fence I find it refreshing to find myself now registered as an Independent.
I don't think that blame can be placed directly on the shoulders of either politcal party. Both are run by special interests, soft money and corporate greed. But then, that is the nature of politics. At no time in human history have the fundamentals been any different.
Thomas Jefferson wrote about the evils of incorporation and how if such entities were allowed to exist in America it would lead to corruption and misused, misguided power. I'm constantly amazed at the insight of the men of that time.
The economic troubles we are facing are a direct result of the greedy manipulations of the power elite. There is no elephant or donkey associated with money. Politcal agendas often cease to exist when the bottom line is the focus or money can be made.
Make no mistake, the only way you fit into the equation is that you provide a service. You deposit in the bank, buy stocks and bonds for the future and go shopping for goods and services. You stimulate the economy and that is what they need. There isn't a political label attached to a consumer or an investor.
I've said this before, I believe that right now there is panic because of the possibility of panic. You can see it every day on Wall Street and within the movements in the hierarchy of the financial elite. Anyone who thinks Mr. Clinton is a player in "the Club" is mistaken. IMO the reference in the article wasn't needed and took away from the message. This isn't to say that he is trying to do something to stop the tidal wave that will hit our shores soon enough. All the power elite are scrambling to do "something", "anything".
We live in an economy where the masses are overextended and living beyond their own economic viability. We have too much credit debt and not enough savings. In fact, THEY want you to have credit card debt and NOT put your money into savings. If savings was what they needed you to do, the interest rate would be 18% - 21%. How many people live within one or two lost paychecks of being in financial ruin or homelessness? Too many families live this way. We live with a false sense of wealth because of a few plastic cards in our wallets. In truth, each time we use them and don't pay them off right away we mortgage our future earnings. There is the rub. What happens when we can't pay?
If you look at what is happening right now in the second largest economy in the world, Japan, then you can see what we can expect soon. It's going to be bad. It's a new kind of world economy where there aren't any borders and no firewalls and the IMF has no chance of "helping". I don't think there are quick fixes for what's coming. I think the only way to make things better is to go through the unraveling. Maybe it's a great cleansing opportunity and there will be positives that come with the pain.
But, in the end, regardless of which side of the politcal landscape you stand on we'll all feel the pain. Hopefully, so will the manipulators that got us here in the first place. ______________________________
-- Michael Taylor (email@example.com), October 24, 1998.
Dear Chris, dear Nabi, >Just for your information, Chris, most Jews don't particularly like being called "Nazis," given the historical fact that six million of my people were slaughtered by them just a few short years ago.< Sadly, slaughter by one's one government seems to be an ongoing process. According to the Investors Business Daily, 10-14-1997,: "The 20th century has been the blodiest ever. Some 42 million (only) people have been killed in wars, and 170 million of so have been killed by their own government." The Nazis almost got me. Let's vote for more government. Why am I a cynic?
-- TTF (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 24, 1998.
I'm sorry about the Nazi thing, it was just an impulsive reaction because of your name. I am not a ranting liberal Democrat, but a Libertarian. And I do not think Kenneth Starr is satanic. Truth is, I don't think the childish war going on between parties right now is accomplishing much of anything, except wasting more of the taxpayers money. I just found this article which I thought might cheer you up, just a little . . .
here are a couple pieces of it;
Clinton Urges Israel, Palestinians To Show Courage
``America will continue to work for a just and lasting peace in this land that is holy for so many people throughout the world,'' Clinton said.
He also said he would ask Congress to approve additional financial aid for Israel to help it ensure its security and for the Palestinians to help their economic development.
I'm kind of getting off the subject of storing water and eating rice, and I guess I am idealistic, but I feel that peace will be good for everyone, regardless of what happens to the economy, and this is really what politicians are supposed to do. I feel about the same as Michael Taylor (thanks, Michael!) and I do not think government or hardworking low income taxpayers like myself should have to assist these large businesses when they fail. See this article;
"If there are bank failures resulting from the year 2000 problem, taxpayers would ultimately foot the bill for any government bailout, noted Jeff Jinnett, president of LeBoeuf Computing Technologies."
The distribution of wealth is way out of wack, but I surrender myself to the laws of nature, which say that forces on this planet are constantly struggling to attain a state of equilibrium, and this will be reached no matter what humans do. We're just along for the ride.
Best wishes, and Shalom
-- chris davidson (email@example.com), October 24, 1998.
Examining the premise a touch further, the 18 B $US sent to the IMF will be used by teh IMF for it's own agenda. Perhaps it would be more responsible for us to have that 18B in reserv, added to our (soi dissant) 82B$US surplus this year, so we can but up at least the first day or two of treasuries the Japanese are going to HAVE to try to liquidate to bring their banks back to something even remotely resembling insolvency. (NO, I did NOT misspell the word! The banks in Japan will have to come back a LONG way to be considered simply insolvent! Now, the closest they can see is horribly bankrupt!) For reference check out PNG's posts on Japan. the rush of tehose treasuries coming home will be a SERIOUS problem for our own liquidity markets. We'll probably see a surprise bank holliday just as they hit, with the usual amount of warning.
-- Chuck a Night Driver (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 24, 1998.
I appreciate your apology, Chris, and fully accept it. We ALL have more important things to worry about right now. Shalom aleichem (peace be unto you).
-- Nabi Davidson (email@example.com), October 24, 1998.
Just where IS Uncle Dedah when you need him? Hope he gets in here quick and makes the kids quit fighting
-- consumer alert (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 25, 1998.
Nope, the kids have to address this themselves:
With facts though. And what I have counted is that the Clinton administration (protected by the "politically corrupt" mainstrean (NY-DC-LA) news media) has had more Cabinet level and White Officials indicted, convicted, and accused of actual crimes, bribery and treason-like behavior than ever before.
Harding, for example, actually only had 3 scandals in his administration.
Clinton has had over 35 already, including selling tombs in Arlington National Cemetery to campaign contributors, attacking ho soponents with IRS audits, and several cases of selling access to Commerce trips based on Democratic National Committe donations. In just one scandal (Chinese money paying for Clinton-Gore campiagn ads) over 42 witnesses fled the country or plead the 5th to avoid self-incrimination.
Some observers claim there are another 24 scandals known about but not publicized by the press.
The man is a pathetic pathological liar pampered by the liberal mass media and "intelligenzia" in the NY and LA cliches of liberal "feeling."
These people, consumed by their abject hatred of the Christains in particular, and the conservatives in general, have no morals, and will stop at no level of personal assault, specific lies or "Goebbel" big lies, repeated often enough, to present their version of of the truth. Their propaganda is spread willingly, and their lies accepted at face value by the press.
So, let me ask a series of specific questions:
Do you trust Clinton to tell you the truth about Y2K preparations by the government?
What progress has been made by industry at large, compared to by the government?
Will computer failures by the government affect you? Affect society? Affect law and order? Affect our current freedoms? Has Clinton's liberal Justice Department done anything to increase your personal freedoms? Has Clinton done anything to increase your personal ability to withstand Y2K?
Is the government ready? Why not?
Who is responsible for the day-to-day operations and manitenance of the governments programs for the past 6 years?
What specific things has Clinton done (not greenspan, but Clinton) done to to benefit the economy the last 6 years? How good would the economy be if it had not be limited to 2%-3% growth by tax increases? Why has the stock market only really taken off after the Repblican Congress was elected in 1994?
Why have deficits been reduced only since the Republicans were elected?
Why has Clinton secretly been issuing Executive Orders to override laws and expand government powers? Why has he been afraid to even publicize these Executive Orders?
Why is the FBI planning to infiltrate Y2K awareness groups in guise of preventing "domestic terrorism"?
This man has done nothing to minimize the impact of Y2K, and has done absolutely nothing to prepare or prevent or mitigate its effect on the federal government. He, more than anyone else, is personally responsible for its affect on the world.
Because, he, Bill Clinton, could have been working for the past 6 years to prevent it. And he could have been publicizing preparedness world-wide for those same six years.
I invite any person who can show me a positive contribution made by Clinton to speak up.
Instead - I will leave you with this very real thought -
Because Bill Clinton is in the White House, because he has created a federal police force and has institutionalized a "thought crimes" mentality (which he is now trying to make legal)
that because of what I wrote here,
I can honestly say that I fear I will be audited (again), that I will have an FBI file created (or expanded) again, that I will be monitored for domestic terrorism, that my house and family will be investigated, and that I will be threatened by private investigators and the officail police powers of the US.
Why? Because others who spoke out have it happen to them....
-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (email@example.com), October 25, 1998.
Robert, I agree with every thing you wrote 100 percent!!!!
Take heart re. the gov. investigations tho.I read in one of the ngs(probably csy2k) " If you'r not in at least one gov. data base, you'r not a true patriot!"
Sean in Indy.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 25, 1998.
I was perplexed for awhile when the whole Zippergate debacle was unfolding. Why, I wondered, does this obvious sexual harrasser enjoy the support of the N.O.W.? After making so called 'strides' in the laws, and in case law, governing sexual harrassment, Bill Clinton is 'firm'ly supported by the womens rights movement. Then it hit me. Look what the alternative is. Dan Quayle...Rush Limbaugh...Jerry Falwell...Bill Bennett...ad nauseum. Easy to figure out when looked at in that light, and I can't say that I blame them.
AHHHH, so that's why George Washington warned the new republic about the dangers of a two party system! If one party says black, the other says white. No room for gray!
I know that there are several Libertarians on this site, do you vote your conscience? (you know, 'waste' your vote?)
"STOP THE MADNESS"
-- Uncle Deedah (email@example.com), October 25, 1998.
Think yourself lucky you only have the Democratic Party, here in the UK we have a full-blown socialist government with a massive majority which can do whatever they like. On the agenda, severe curtailment of private transport, biaised race laws, "reform" of the House of Lords and the monarchy, reform of the voting system to a PR method that will ensure the perpetuity of the Labour Government. There is in my locality a massive increase planned in "social housing", ie state provided homes for Labour voters. He rejected the method favoured by the society for electoral reform (for years) as it would have led to a hung parliament. The "reform" of the House of Lords will ensure that it is filled with Blairite socialists. The Conservative vote abstained at the last election giving his massive majority. PS you never hear the word socialist, but they are all "politically correct" as is the BBC and much of the media.
-- Richard Dale (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 26, 1998.
Socialists, democrats, republicans...they all suck lies big time. ALL OF THEM shoulda told us about Y2K a looooog time ago and keep talking about it on the news everyday. They only care about thier ratings and lobby money. And news media only cares about ratings and money.
And Bill Gates and big business only care about money..short term profits. Y2K is not profitable for them. So you're all wrong. Nobody cares about little people, we just been lucky to get the falling crumbs for so long. So stop arguing over which liar lied the least. You're embarrassing us kids.
-- DaKid (UpOn@tree.com), October 26, 1998.
Uncle Deedah, don't forget (shudder) Pat Buchanan. (is Lyndon LaRouche still alive?).
And yes, I do vote my conscience. Usually against incumbents, if no third party alternative exists. Read the letters of Thomas Jefferson-- he was a true revolutionary. If he were alive today, the government would smear, discredit, imprison, or murder him.
I like that line, "If you're in at least one government database, you're not a true patriot". In accordance with that sentiment, I offer:
"Wouldn't it just kill Clinton if he found out that Chelsea was a Republican?"
-- Max Dixon (Ogden, Utah USA) (Max.Dixon@gte.net), October 26, 1998.
Don't be silly. Everybody knows that Chelsea is in fact a football (soccer to the clueless) team located in London. I think it is important you understand this as it will make much more sense should I claim to be a Chelsea supporter.
-- Craig (email@example.com), October 26, 1998.
Political parties are all controlled by the international banking cartel, via the Council on Foreign Relations. Political parties? Ideologies? Corporations? Nations? Religions? Say it all with me: "Divide and Conquer." And again: "Divide and Conquer." Get it? As long as you cling to your parties and your 'hot button issues' you will be unable to think like your controllers, or understand them. Or understand the global plantation they have planned for us all.
What is the biggest business in the world? Arms. War exists because there is money to be made. We are goaded to it, shamed into it, bribed into it, at every turn. Was it Eisenhower who said "the people of the world want peace and someday the leaders of the world will have to give it to them." He left the bankers out of this scenario. Banks control the money, and everyone needs money, starting with nations and military. Then corporations: industry, media, universities... Control the money and you control the world.
So Y2k crashes civilization. There will still be strategic oil reserves. There will still be arms aplenty and means of production to rebuild. And there will be gold by the ton, held by....who? It's not in Fort Knox. The people at the helm -big bankers- will use this as an opportunity to consolidate their global position - wait and see. All we can do now is understand what's happening and make an honest accounting for future generations, so they will know how we surrendered the liberties that were to be their inheritance.
-- E. Coli (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 26, 1998.
Who said that Republicans and Democrats are simply two different horns on the head of the same beast?
Robert Cook, my respect and admiration for you increases yet again. I am enriched by knowing you, albeit only in cyberspace.
E. Coli, I find your perspective particularly valuable in that it is not only unfailingly accurate but free of bias as well.
What I wish to contribute is this: Some number of ethical men of principle, morality and good intentions will survive whatever Y2K turns out to be. I perhaps flatter myself when I count myself among them, but I believe that we will have yet another chance at building a Human society. I hope and pray that men such as Robert A. Cook, P.E. and E. Coli are among them.
-- Hardliner (email@example.com), October 26, 1998.
Max, are ya sure that :
> I like that line, "If you're in at least one government database, you're not a true patriot".
doesn't read "If you're not in at least one...."
-- Chuck a Night Driver (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 27, 1998.
Rob Cook, that was a Georgia Peach of an assessment of our 'fearless leader'. I've never trusted him any farther than I could throw a donkey, much less an elephant. And that's been ever since he was governor of Arkansas (had a roommate from there, gave me advance warning).
There are, however, people in government whom I do trust as regards Y2K --
Senator Bob Bennett. Rep. Stephen Horn. Sen. Christopher Dodd. Rep. Connie Morella. Joel Willemssen of the General Accounting Office.
These are good, honest reporters, methinks (mehopes).
(John Koskinen? not yet.)
-- John Howard (Greenville, NC) (email@example.com), October 29, 1998.
And Unca D, regarding your comments about the two parties being black and white --
that reminded me of an old Doonesbury comic from 9-24-1976 that tickled my gizzard enough at the time that I saved it (was in college in Chapel Hill at the time, idealist liberal stoopid hippie and all that)....just went and dug it up, and it reads like this (subject being the Gerald Ford - Jimmy Carter presidential debates):
"Mr. President, I wonder if you could share with us your views on balancing the budget?"
"Of course. Basically, I believe...Flip. Flip. Flip, Flip, Flip...and Flip. Flip-Flip! Flip, Flip, Flip!"
"Thank you, sir. Mr. Carter?"
"Flop. I have always said Flop."
-- John Howard (Greenville, NC) (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 29, 1998.
dang, an observant reader...
>Max, are ya sure that :
> > I like that line, "If you're in at least one government database, you're not a true patriot".
>doesn't read "If you're not in at least one...."
Alright, I admit my freudian slip... I'm really from the NSA, and I'm here to gather information on you people. Sorry about that.
Chuck, no hard feelings. I'll put a note in your file: "I recommend that this person be sent to a really really nice camp with clean water and no bugs in the food and shiny new shovels and hoes because he can help the guards learn to read their FEMA directives." In fact, I'm writing it now. How do you spell 'interogate'?
-- Max Dixon (Ogden, Utah USA) (Max.Dixon@gte.net), October 29, 1998.
Max, you left out an "R". It is interrogate. Can I go somewhere nice, too, where they need help with spelling? :-)
-- Gayla Dunbar (email@example.com), October 29, 1998.
Koskinen is either clueless, a dunce, smoking something, or a bald (no pun) faced liar! Boy, is he going to take a fall for someone(s)
A little sympathy for Chelsea please. How would you like to go through life with this guy as your father?
-- Rancherdick (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 30, 1998.
John Chapel hill Hmmmm I happen to know the 2nd male to graduate from that institution. He'd of been first but they went from taller to shorter and he's shorter than I am. And I'm considered somewhat verticaly chalenged. (at 5' 5")
-- Chuck a Night Driver (email@example.com), October 31, 1998.