My wife and I went to Sam's Club today, and did some serious stocking up on mundane but essential supplies. While there, I noticed they had 2 sizes of Coleman generators. Let me state that I'm an idiot when it comes to generators, so I'm looking for some general advice from the vast knowledge that exists within this forum.

The 2 sizes were, I believe, 1600 watts ($350)and 2500 watts ($500). The fuel capacity on the larger model was 5 gallons. It didn't say what KIND of fuel anywhere on the box. Couldn't find the capacity on the smaller one.

I asked 5 different employees. None of them knew anything about it, but kept referring me to someone else they were sure did. Very frustrating experience. I mentioned in passing that there may be power outages due to Y2K, and I asked how many were in stock, as I expected there to be a run on generators very soon. Again, dumb looks. I digress...

My questions are: What output is best? Is Coleman a well-known brand name for generators? What fuel is best? Can I keep it in my garage, or do I need better ventilation than that? How much fuel, on average, would be consumed daily if I'm just powering the essentials (furnace, stove, and refrigerator)? Will everything function well if the temperature is below 0F? Why do I live in Wisconsin?

Sorry for all these questions. I don't think I can get a better price, so I'm inclined to buy soon. I will not do so, however, until I feel better informed. Anyone?

-- Steve Hartsman (hartsman@ticon.net), October 24, 1998

Answers

Steve,

I am also pretty clueless about generators, so I turned to a friend of mine who is a diesal mechanic. He said that of all the diesal generators he has worked on, he LOVES John Deere's. Second, he said, would be Honda.

Now, I don't know about Coleman, but I know Honda has a very detailed web site detailing gas consumption, hours of usage, temparture ranges and so on. You may want to see if Coleman has something similar.

I know I didn't really answer your questions, but I thought I would throw in the little research I have done:)

Rick

-- Rick Tansun (ricktansun@hotmail.com), October 24, 1998.

I have heard several people say Honda is the best (gas) I have a small engine repair friend that says most important of all, is to change the oil every 20 hrs. Whatever you do, don't run any kind of fuel engine in the garage (even with the door open). Carbon monoxide will penetrate the walls.

-- Arthur Rambo (buriedtreasure@webtv.net), October 24, 1998.

Hi Steve, I'll see if I can answer at least some of your questions... 1)Output...that will be determined by your needs. You need to determine what your basic "essentials" are and add up the wattages on those appliances. This will give you a -rough- idea of the size generator you need. Anything that uses an electric motor...water pump, fridge, furnace, etc. will also require a momentary "surge" of power to start it...1600 and 2500 watt units probably won't handle your surge loads. 4000 and 4500 watts are better suited for most backup situations...5000-5500 for more serious usage. 2) Coleman's OK...but it and others in the same category are meant for occasional usage and will not give you much more than 500 to 750 hours of useful life. As the other folks mentioned, Honda is much more suited to serious use. Ask the folks at your local rental place what generator lasts longest for them. Rental tools take a beating and these places know what works and what doesn't! 3) Not in the garage!! Carbon Monoxide!! Not to mention the fire hazard. Put it outside to run it, pull it in when you're done. 4) Plan on a gallon per hour...maybe a bit more if you're running heavy appliances. I suggest you find alternatives to the electric stove, perhaps the heat as well. Using the generator only for light duty use will increase it's life and decrease the fuel consumption. 5) You should be OK with a gasoline genny at 0 or below, storing it inside the garage when not in use will keep it a bit warmer...mine starts grudgingly in real cold weather, but it does start. 6) You live in Wisconsin 'cause it's much better than here in New York State or a lot of other places for that matter! :-) And finally...those were gasoline generators you saw at Sams. And my advice to you would be to keep looking for someone local who's knowledgeable about generators...a John Deere dealer or someone similar. They would be a good resource for info if nothing else. Good luck! Roy

-- Roy @ Four Winds (4windpwr@infoblvd.net), October 24, 1998.

You might want to ask yourself if you really need a generator at all. If you think the power is going to be out for more than a couple of days, the answer might be 'no' for these reasons:

1) It's hard to store much gasoline safely. (Diesel fuel is easier and safer though).

2) For the price of a generator, you can buy a lot of beans and rice... and candles, propane, propane lanterns, wood for your stove, etc.

If you're really paranoid, 3) Having the lights on will make you a target.

-- Ned (entaylor@cloudnet.com), October 24, 1998.

Lots of good info there.

Coleman would not be a good choice for the y2k situation. Actually most brands of small, gas-powered gennies are inappropriate. They are designed for light, intermittant duty and will wear out rapidly under heavy demand. The sizes mentioned, 1600W and 2500W, are very small, and would (most likely) be pushed beyond their operating limit if power is out for any length of time. For example, a hair dryer can draw 1200W alone. (Not that a hair dryer would be considered essential) These gennies are selling off the shelves everywhere around here, however.

One factor not mentioned yet is fuel storage. Gasoline storage is hazardous, gas degrades rapidly, plus, how much gas can you store anyway? Fuel *availability* will probably be the limiting factor for most situations. One constant (within the 4KW to 15KW range) is, surprisingly, fuel consumption: roughly 1 gallon per hour.

Diesel fuel is less volatile and stores longer. Diesel generators run slower, last longer and are not as finicky about fuel quality.

Another factor is voltage. Some of these small gensets put out only 110 VAC. If you have a well and a 220V well pump or a 220V furnace (as I have) you need the correct voltage to drive them, along with enough surge capacity (roughly 3x the operating wattage) for the motors' startup. I went with a 12KW Honda diesel which cost a small fortune, but seemed like the only realistic choice to me. Coupled to a 1000 gal. heating oil tank, that yields a substantial (though not continuous) operating time.

One more suggestion: Don't rely on your generator as the answer to everything! Your backup plan should have a contingency plan too.

Prepare Spiritually Prepare Financially Prepare Physically

-- Elbow Grease (Elbow_Grease@AutoShop.com), October 24, 1998.

Steve,

We just got a small 2500Watt from Sears, and have a 7500Watt on order, both Craftsman.

I'm opposed to the 7500Watt, but compromise is the key to harmony.

Anyway, the 2500 will be adequate for recharging deep discharge batteries, and is small enough to secure fairly easily when not in use. Craftsman is supposed to be pretty good, Spouse-man says something to do with overhead cam??? It is NOT quiet, it sounds like a large lawn mower. We have been assured that the 7500W is 'quiet- running' (HA!!!)

I can not envision the big one being useful or pratical: it will drink gas and oil, and as far as I'm concerned, we'll have the woodstove for heat & cooking & hot water for bathing; what else do we need?

HOWEVER. As someone said on this forum a while ago, sometimes you have to accomodate your emotional & psychological needs, too. Having both generators is important to my husband's peace of mind, therefore it's important, period.

If you can find the funds, and it will help you sleep the next 14 months, it's money well spent. Right???

-- Arewyn (nordic@northnet.net), October 24, 1998.

My 2 cents worth...I bought a 2000/2500 watt Coleman powermate from Sams last month for $330. I plan to use it mainly for backup to charge the six 115Amp-hour marine batteries I also bought there for $49 each (the Walton's family wealth will surely eclispe Bill Gates shortly before Y2K!). The batteries' primary charging is from a 200 watt solar array ($1000). An $800 Exceltec inverter provides 1100 watts AC power.

I bought a large bottle of fuel stabilizer from Boaters World for $6, enough for 160 gallons. It is advertised to preserve gas for 18-24 months. I bought three used 55 gallon poly drums from a local steel drum company for $25 each. If I have time, I plan to bury them so a stray bullet doesn't cause a disaster.

Getting off topic, but I bought a $70 Igloo 12V DC cooler from Wal-Mart (maybe this would be a good time to buy Wal-Mart stock). It requires 1000 watt hours per day, 10 times more than a higher quality 4-cu ft ($1400) DC refrigerator. I am going to rig up a timer next week and see if I can reduce the power consumption.

-- a (a@a.a), October 24, 1998.

First, Hey Roy! Glad to see you posting to this forum.....you give good advice for those looking at energy sources.

What follow is a discussion that isn't really related to Steve's question, but covers power in general. I see a lot of power questions on this forum, so I'm glad to see Roy drop by to answer them.

This is a long post. Basically, it says that a generator is nice, but please, folks, look to other ways to get through things. _________________________________

Rushing out to buy a generator should be the last thing to do as we prepare. They are expensive. The cheap ones (Coleman) are expensive because they don't have a long life expectancy. They can die when you have come to depend on them. Even the most reliable diesel can be a source of mechanical problems. If you can't fix 'em,. don't buy 'em. Roy, or someone as knowledgable, won't be next door in February, 2000.

First look for food and water. Next, supply heat and a way of cooking your food. When all those things are taken care of, then (and only then) a generator may be in order.

I'm preparing our church -- physically -- for Y2K. We don't expect to have a generator.......propane heaters, oil lamps, and water supplied in 5 gallon containers, both for drinking and sewage handling. When we have everything else, we'll consider a generator. Not before.

When I first started wrestling with the alternate energy problem for Y2K I spent days and weeks on the Gary North (is it back up yet, Roy?) Home Power forum. I read, and read. I also have the advantage of being an electrical engineer, so that the power isn't a complete mystery.

I also do have a generator (3500 watt Honda), which I use about 8 or 9 times a year, for everything from power outages to running power painters, saws and drills on a fence line. So I wasn't rushed.

I quickly came to the conclusion that I had only two choices in the event of serious problems: go without electric power or buy a diesel.

First the inexpensive contractor generators have a built in problem. Roy will confirm that the end bearings go out.....they're in a little plastic housing. Hey, guess where those bearings are made: Brazil -- the least compliant and most economically challenged country in the Western Hemisphere. They get here.......by ship or air cargo, of course. So, if I were going to buy one of those things I'd also stock up on bearings......in fact I would have a whole lot of spare parts.

Any of the inexpensive generators may turn out to be a maintenance problem if we get into a serious power bind. Hondas are the best, but even they can be a problem.

Now, consider this: in order to generate electricity we have to burn a fossil fuel. There is only so much energy in that fossil fuel. There's only so much power that we can get out of it. If we want more power, we have to burn more fuel. If I jump from 1250 watts to 2500 watts, I HAVE to burn almost twice the amount of fuel to get full output from the generators. When I go from 2500 watts to 7500 watts, I triple (roughly) the amount of fuel I have to burn.

In a situation where fuel is critical, it doesn't make sense to burn it without thought. Electrical power companies can not store power (as a first approximation). We can. We can use batteries and inverters, storing DC power in the batteries, and then converting it to AC power for use in the inverter. If I'm just using the generator, I have to run it every time I want power. Most of us will find excuses to run it far too often. But if we use it mainly to charge batteries, then the batteries can supply power when the generator isn't running. Batteries and inverters are good.

Gasoline storage is dangerous, and gas doesn't store well. Steve might get up to 8 hours on the 5 gallon tank on the 2500 watt Coleman. If he runs it 4 hours a day, that's 2 1/2 gallons of gas. Ten days is 40 hours or 25 gallons of gas. A 55 gallon drum will last only about 3 weeks. Hmm....this doesn't sound too promising, even with the battery pack and inverter.

That leaves propane or diesel. Propane is easier to store if you can put a big tank in your yard, but the generator is still the same. You can buy good low speed (1800 rpm propane generators, or you can also but good low speed diesel generators which will run 'forever' (relatively speaking). Either one is expensive compared to the Colemans......figure upwards of $3000.

I use oil heat. So, #2 heating oil and #2 diesel are the same except for the dye and the road tax. My furnace and generator will run off the same thing. I store heating oil. No brainer. That means I have a 500 gallon diesel tank outside my door.

Notice that I said charge batteries. I don't want to run a generator 24/7. So, a pack of batteries and an inverter are required. The inverter charges the batteries when the generator is running.....but I have to have a big enough generator and a good inverter. All of these things cost money.

In my case I can look down the line and see the day when I can throw the switch on the power company. Hopefully I can do this before they raise the rates to cover all the Y2K work they're doing. The point of all of this is that all of these things cost money. You can buy several years supply of food for the money that goes into a power generation system. Get the food first. Secure your water supply first. Make sure you family can be warm without the genny first.

Even with a generator, a battery pack and inverter, I plan to have alternate sources for most other needs:

Lights -- oil lamps

Refrigeration -- outside insulated box for winter only, and a selection of foods and dairy products that don't require refrigeration. I don't need to refrigerate powdered milk

Cooking -- solar cooker, microwave, firplace with dutch oven

Heat -- wood/oil fired hot water baseboard heating system, using only wood in the event of power outages, saving the fuel for the diesel. Does require electricity for the water pump. Have a back-up fireplace insert, and I've heated the place, without power, keeping it at 70 degrees when it was -10 outside.

Hot water -- heated in a heat transfer with the boiler.

Yes, I'll have a generator, but only absolutely needed to pump water, run the water pump on the boiler system, and to run the microwave.

The point is, there are other ways to do things than relying on the generator. It's mechanical. Murphy's law says that it'll die when you need it the most.

Hey, Steve, it gets cold in the WV mountains, too. And, at least you do have cheese up there don't you? Man do I love a good cheddar!

-- rocky (rknolls@hotmail.com), October 24, 1998.

close

-- darn (a@____.-----), October 24, 1998.

Steve,

I'd suggest looking into a Generac, made not far from where you live; Waukesha. The cost a little more but will hold up a lot longer. The Coleman leaves something to be desired. Don't make the mistake of buying a small one. 5000 Kw should be the minimum.

-- Hull Stetson (stetson.hull@usa.net), October 24, 1998.

Where a generator fits in priority wise depends largely on where you live. It is a number 1 priority to me, as our temeperatures are usually in the minus 30/40 range in January. At those temperatures, if you can't keep the furnace motor running, your house will freeze to the point of being uninhabitable in 8 to 12 hours.

Also, rotating power outages have already started in our province. Last night, power was cut for about half an hour to parts of Edmonton, Calgary and some smaller cities because there is too much demand for power and not enough supply. If we are already experiencing shortages, there is no room for any Y2K induced problems before it starts seriously affecting us. We don't have the 20% or so excess capacity that we should have. The irony of it all is that we are sitting on the world's largest reserve of oil (The Athabasca Tar Sands) and yet have to rely on power coming through the grid.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), October 26, 1998.

Steve, hey,take some time and visit an RV dealer in your area. take a look at the RV gen sets that Motor Homes contain. I was an RV Tech for 10 yrs and found Onan gen sets were very good. especially the 6500 watt generators. The same ones in the RV's Talk w/ the Tech's and see which one they recommend. They know more than the salesmen do.! Also talk to them to see if there are any trade-ins that are changing over from gas to propane generators. Most Diesel Motor Homes have two fuel systems, one is propane and the other is Diesel. The propane is used for the generator,Refridgerator,furnance, and water heater. The diesel part runs only the engine of the motor home. So walk and talk to the techs at an RV dealer they might also have a refurbished generator for sale normally cheap. They might also have one at their home for sale,cheap... Should you get a generator using Propane than a tank will be needed, but you will also have gas furnance and gas water heater in your home.? Check out propane gen sets and get a tank, they also burn fuel cleaner,and no soot to deal with. Good luck and tell us what you have decided to do. Furie...

-- Furie (furieart@gte.net), October 26, 1998.

Using a generator to run your essentials as you put it "furnace, stove, and refrigerator" at your home is a very complex and expensive project. You just don't plug into an extention cord and turn on the generator.

There are many items that need to be added to the system for it to work correctly and to meet the national electrical code.

First of all you will need to contract an electrician to install the system. You will need some type of isolation switch as in an automatic transfer switch or a manual one so not to back feed tne utility. You will also need a permit to have the system installed.

The average cost to have an emergency back-up system installed for a home can start at $10,000.00 or more.

The size of the generator depends on the total wattage of what you you want to power in your home. My advise is to get a licensed electrician to check this out for you.

I have been in the generator business for over twenty years. The companies I have worked for support generators for homes, RV's to large systems for hospitals, office buildings, communication sites, etc..

The best brand I would recommend is an Onan generator set. The best fuel to power the generator is propane or diesel with diesel being the more expensive, but more durable.

I hope this information helps.

-- Dave Harris (Onanman@jps.net), October 28, 1998.

Thanks everyone.

I've decided to put a generator purchase on hold for now. My wife and I are in the process of convincing her sister to let us stay with them. They are in the country, have a well and a fireplace, etc.

In the meantime, the money that would have gone for a generator will be put to better use. I will print out this thread, however, for future reference.

-- Steve Hartsman (hartsman@ticon.net), October 28, 1998.

I am a believer in backup generators (live in Hurricane country). Bought a Generac 10KW and had an electrician wire a 50 amp recepticle into my breaker box. Generator is in my Garage with a flexable exhaust pipe deployed under garage door when running. Carbon monoxide alarm in garage for safety check. Gasoline CAN be stored for well over a year IF you add a gasoline stabilizer like STA-BIL. My gen. has a overhead two cylinder pressure lubricated engine (Coleman uses "splash" method). The 10 KW will run my central AC + Frig/freezer + Microwave + one burner on electric range + Home theater + assorted lighting + computer, etc. If I need hot water and want to wash and dry clothes, I kill the AC until finished. Gen holds 5 gal. of gas and will run about 6 hours on standard load. ADVICE: If you run your generator outside you MUST post a guard or say goodbye to it. In Homestead FL after ANDREW nothing was stolen faster than a running generator outside the house. Pickups cruised around at night listening for the sound, whipped out their trusty bolt cutters and snipped the chain "securing" the generator to the house and were gone in less than a minute. A word to the wise from experience. Of course, if you want to play Daniel Boone and live by candle light and cook over a fire, enjoy. I like my modern day comforts. Stay Safe. Jim

-- Jim Messer (Hook291407@aol.com), October 30, 1998.

I've been researching generators also (and still have a long way to go), but I'm becoming convinced that propane is the way to go. I still don't get just how the thing gets wired into the house (guess I'll have to shell out for an electrician for that). The main reason we need a generator is to pump water from our well.

Some friends have mentioned that we should put in a hand-pump so as not to rely on a generator which will surely die sooner or later. But, how do you tie a hand-pump into a typical home well? Amazing how expensive the manual pumps are that I've found so far. Perhaps we could start a water pump discussion?

-- (kayaker@itis.com), October 31, 1998.