We'll probably be forced from our homes anyway......greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
In the event of a y2k induced collapse of society, we'll undoubtedly be forced from our homes by local law enforcement, under the guise of doing it for our own protection. Especially when the lights go out. During the recent wildfires and hurricanes that have plagued parts of the country, one thing remained constant. Local and federal officials forced people from their homes.
I can picture a local cop knocking on my post y2k door saying, "folks, we're concerned about bad guys breaking into your neighbors homes after they leave, and your life may be in danger if you stay here on your own, so we respectfully request that you join your friends and neighbors at the high school gym, where we have blankets, food, and heat all set up. If you argue he'll simply say, "sorry, I have my orders"! The question becomes how do you react? If your local cop knocks on your door in post y2k, and says "folks, we need you to evacuate with your neighbors, for your own safety". What do you do?
You could be prepared for anything and everything, but if that cop says take what you can carry and leave, either you leave, get arrested for obstruction, or shoot him.
My thinking is leaning toward preparing for flight, I plan on loading up the car with supplies and maybe going to a very rural motel for the turn of the century. After a few days we'll hopefully know if it's safe to return to our home. If it is, fine! we'll just go home. If it's not, then we'll be in a more rural, and better location, where the motel owners will probably be glad were there, and let us stay for free.
We're in a small midwestern village, yet we fear the possibility of this happening. The moral here is, don't assume that just because you've spent thousands in preperations, that you'll be secure in your own home and be able to use them.
-- Jay (email@example.com), October 19, 1998
You are kidding, right? No?
OK, let's think this thing through. The situation is bad enought that martial law has been declared in the city. You're in that rural motel, and have been there for 5 days. The food is gone, so is the water. BTW, you're about out of gas for the car and the local stations have run out. The lights are out.
You say, ".....then we'll be in a more rural, and better location, where the motel owners will probably be glad were there, and let us stay for free."
Why? Why should you expect that the motel owners would welcome you......and not some of the hundreds of other refugees that are trying the same thing you are? Are you the only ones who will be able to get out of Dodge? What makes you think you should be fed and housed?
The motel owners are busy looking after their own needs. The last thing they want or need is someone freeloading off them and depriving them of resources they need for their own survival.
-- rocky (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 19, 1998.
During the approach of George, a fireman came to my trailor ant told me we had to leave. This was at 12:30AM. I told him, I was watching the situation, and would decide in the am. He looked disapointed and told me that he was not responsible if anything should happn to me or mine. I told him of course he wasn't responsible. I was. He was not pleased, but just shrugged, and continued on his rounds, through the park.
-- Charon (Waltndot@aol.com), October 19, 1998.
Jack: Perhaps in some very specific areas, forced evacuations might occur but on a massive scale? Just where would all these 'evacuees' be sheltered? Everyone needs to evaluate their own situation carefully.
But if I am prepared to just sit tight (or better, if my immediate neighborhood is at least partially prepared to just sit tight together and protect against fires, looting, etc. ) then I will be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
There are a great many possibilities far short of total chaos. The choices you make will impact not only yourself but those around you as well. If you choose to embrace total chaos, it will surely be yours. But if you choose to work towards a better solution, it might also be yours.
How bad will it be? I guess for the most part, that's up to you.
-- Arnie Rimmer (email@example.com), October 19, 1998.
Under no circumstances that I can see, would Y2K induced calamities result in anyone being forced from their homes UNLESS THEY LIVE IN AN URBAN AREA, where indeed, after a few weeks of no electricity, no clean water, no food, no working sewage system, there obviously would be actions taken under martial law. But a "small midwestern village"???
-- Jack (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 19, 1998.
given the number of troups available I think it might be more possible for the largest cities to be locked in-Ghettoized, it will keep the countryside safe from all those untidy refugees, after all all the 'leadership' will have gone to their enclaves, after the first 3 months the worst will be over, all the medically dependent- dead, good chunks of the real estate cleared by fire, those given to such things out of amunition, I agree with the person somewhere else who keeps banging at the idea of how the best place is a small 'sustainable' community, trade and communication if ever back, will be very unreliable, what remains up after 3 month will probably slowly wind down, do you, or anyone you personally know know how to make a needle? antibiotics, shoes, or any of the things you are accustomed to buying? julienne
-- julienne (email@example.com), October 19, 1998.
I think Julienne hit it on the head. There would more likely be a curfew and a limit on travel. Kind of scary but much easier than forced evacuation. I know that in L.A. it would be impossible to do this.
Jack wrote "Under no circumstances that I can see, would Y2K induced calamities result in anyone being forced from their homes UNLESS THEY LIVE IN AN URBAN AREA". The only thing that might do this is the spread of uncontrolled fires or other disasters because of a lack of response due to 911 being down or communications being down all together.
After viewing a CNN report, I know that right now, in Koscovo, people that are returning from the hills are returning to sacked and looted homes. I hope that this isn't the case here but how can you dismiss the possibility. There may be many reasons for flight from the cities, large and small, even before y2k and those that are left within may feel the only place they can find what they need is in someones empty home.
-- Michael Taylor (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 19, 1998.
I think whether or not you leave your home is dependent on your circumstances. As it stands now, you do not have to evacuate. Are they going to shoot you if you don't evacuate so they can save you? If you are prepared, stay put. If you are not prepared and need to take a handout from the government, then do that. A house left unprotected from the wheather or invaders is helpless. You might not find much left when you get back.
-- Rod Beary (email@example.com), October 19, 1998.
If Y2K is supposed to prompt the police/military et al to come 'round to my house and collect me for my safety because the power's out, where where they when I lived in my apartment and the power went out and I was in the dark and cold for two days?
-- Karen Cook (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 19, 1998.
I'd like to hear from some folks that went through all the fires in Florida this summer. In particular, from folks in the legal or law enforcement worlds. What's the scoop on "forcing" people from their homes, even under martial law conditions (and I assume that there are differing degrees of martial law, too).
What I've heard is that if you didn't want to leave, you're asked for next of kin information and that's it.
...many minds want to know...
-- J (email@example.com), October 19, 1998.
It's hard to know what is going to happen, but let's look at the logistics of evacuating everyone to a high school gym. If TSHTF, then everyone and every building is in the same (sinking) boat - they could potentially have power from generators but how long these will work depends upon how many warehouses of fuel they have stockpiled. And food - how much food they have stockpiled. Hot dogs and Coke don't don't give people sustainable nutrition. In fact, it could even make them grumpy (it would make me grumpy being a vegetarian) Even if they have power, will the toilets work? Will they let them even be flushed if the sewage plant systems don't work or backup. The toilets I have seen these days that have the one single button in the middle on top of the tank don't work when there isn't any power, so you can't flush. On the same note, I would think there needs to be fresh water at these sites for people. How much can they reasonably stockpile?
How are people going to get there? I doubt they are going to make them hike miles through 3 feet of snow in the middle of January, esp children and babies. Don't think there is enough room to park all the cars if they drive there...and do the powers in charge want people wasting their gas by driving there if there is no gas to be pumped?
It is really hard to know but the logistics seem too crazy to me to evacuate a lot of people... they may only do something in the cities figuring that country people are more used to surviving on their own than city folks. I can see trucks bringing in food and fresh water and portable johns to drop off points in the city. This makes for a better use of their resources than trying to move thousands of people.
And once people get "it", there may be lots of anger and by moving large groups of people to one place, they are asking for a mass riot with that many people crowded together (like the too many rats in a small cage scenario). Better to keep them in their homes under martial law - this seems like an easier way to control the population.
And if they try to move you to a high school gym, who is going to take care of your house and your cats and dogs that you can't take with you? I will NOT leave my animals.
Any comments? I will be much safer in my own home than at some high school gym. And if it is really crazy, who says that the cops and military won't be at home protecting their own family. There may not be any one on duty to come around to your door.
-- Kathryn (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 19, 1998.
Under current laws in Texas, you can't be forced from your home. As a previous poster said, when told to evacuate, if you choose not to, you are on your own. I guess those laws COULD be superseded under Martial Law, but I just don't see it happening. Since I live within 50 miles of 4 million people, I would like to know where they would put us all? I think the curfew/travel restriction scenario is much more likely. As I posted in another thread, I will NOT go to a shelter since I found out that once in that shelter you must remain until the "authorities" say you can leave.
-- Gayla Dunbar (email@example.com), October 19, 1998.
Your idea of going to a motel for a few days with a carload of supplies is not well thought out. In fact, there are more than a few scenarios where it would be stupid. If you are truly that worried, prepare your home first. A lock down curfew, all travel restricted is by far the most likely event in a total utility collapse. I do think it would take 72 hours to get that into effect in most places. So you will probably have a small window to evacuate IF you have some place reasonable to go. A motel is likely to give you a Mr N Bates welcome!
-- R. D..Herring (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 19, 1998.
Um, when you see people being loaded up for the shelters, don't answer the door? I never do, ya gotta call first if ya wanna get into Deedahland.
-- Uncle Deedah (email@example.com), October 19, 1998.
Uncle D, I seem to have misplaced your phone number, can you post it again please? : ) ____________________________________________________________________
-- Michael Taylor (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 19, 1998.
Mike, I have uncle dedahs number from the last thread it is as follows 1-800-not-home. lol
-- from me (email@example.com), October 19, 1998.
Having 1) set up shelters
and 2) been through the ARC Shelter Management course
and 3) done shelter inventories,
DON'T expect to be "moved to the school" in any large scale, natiuonwide or regionwide Y2K disruptions for teh following reasons:
1) There aren't enough square feet in the schools, in the areas that qualify as shelters to hold the people in more than one or two neighboring high-rises, much less in the rest of the neighborhood.
2) Feeding people will be a night-mare! (logistically at BOTH ends of the chain!) [Can't get the food to the shelter in quantity, since noone has it in quantity and where are we going to buy it ( we as in the Red Cross)?]
Expect much more the dusk to dawn curfew, travel restrictions (who is going to plow those roads anyway? I live in the snow belt!), and voluntary shelters (and I do mean VOLUNTARY!!) we set up voluntary heat shelters (cooling spots) for a few weeks two summers ago because our mayor didn't want to see Cleveland with the same death rate as Chicago.
Trust me, the ARC hasn't got the people to staff a set of shelters for mandatory evacuations, we haven't got the shelters in our inventory, and teh supplies are not available because none of our chapters stocks a large quantity of food, we go to the store or warehouse and buy it just like you do, only we buy a little more.
You are not likely to be forced out.
-- Chuck a Night Driver (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 19, 1998.
Uncle is right again. Ignore them like a door to door salesmen or the "Witnesses". They won't come knocking to round you up. They will use water and government cheese to lure you into their trap.(ha,ha) You won't have to shoot cops unless you have a donut shop to protect.
-- Bill (email@example.com), October 20, 1998.
Living about 30 miles north of a city with 2.5 million people, I have heard little "underground" grumblings about how the city will be "locked down" at the county lines so no one can go out or come in. Fortunately, I do not live in the county lines of the "big" city, but what the hey, my city has 300,000 people!!! The idea of being BEHIND locked down city lines makes me VERY nervous, but my husband and I have evaluated the situation carefully, and for us, there really is nowhere else we can go (don't have the resources to just buy a place in the country.) We are just going to stockpile ALL we can in our 1800 square foot home, and defend it completely. We have told a few other family members they are welcome (we have the room) but only if they bring everything they can with them (clothes, toiletries and food) and show up BEFORE 12/31/99. But so far we are the only ones to believe anything will happen!
My point is, everyone should think VERY carefully about what they are going to do should TSHTF.
I also don't think there will be any forced evacuations. I think there will be a LOT of voluntary, last-minute, panicky fleeing (for where?) and, I know this is kinda morbid, if TSHTF, more than a few suicides. THAT worries me, because I can see my neighborhood being a "ghost town" and us having to defend our home against roving gangs of hungry (armed?) people thinking EVERY house is empty.
All you can do is prepare for every contingency you can think of. Then prepare some more.
-- K. (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 22, 1998.
If you REALLY intend to defend your home, "against roving gangs of hungry (armed?) people", you had better educate yourself as to the absolute physical capabilities of the .380 weapons you've indicated you plan to use.
It would be rather like trying to take on a pride of lions with a BB gun. . .
You've indicated your intention to spend a lot of time in training. Ask the advice and counsel of your instructor. PLEASE get some solid information before you become trapped in a plan that is inadequate.
-- Hardliner (email@example.com), October 22, 1998.
On townchat.com forum, I saw a post by "Rich" which I will reproduce here: Crisis in the BASEMENT "This is a topic that has not been discussed: When TSHTF MANY people will have a first-hand look at IT, IN THEIR BASEMENT!!!!! MOST people don't think about how the waste products are handled once they leave the Drain. If you are connected to any municipal sewage facility, here is what happens to it: Gravity...takes the waste down to the basement, then to the street, then to a LIFT STATION, which is nothing more than a varying sized tank with an ELECTRIC PUMP operated by a float switch. Want to guess what happens when there is no more electricity? The tank fills, the sewage backs up and flows to the lowest point. AND JUST where do you think the lowest point is? Your BASEMENT!! When your upstream neighbor flushes his bucket-filled toilet, YOUR basement becomes its destination!!! Ya, you know the place where you stored all your prepared FOOD, ammo, etc.!!!!! (Note from me -- Emily: If you don't have a basement, I heard that it would just back up into the lowest point, which would be your first-floor bathroom.) Of course, if your house is at the top of the hill, well you don't have much to worry about, but if yours is next to the lift station.........YOU get it FIRST!!! Terrain in your town has a big impact as to how it is routed around, so it may be that it comes up through the street manholes downstream before you get it, but if NOT....keep in mind without water, pumps, etc., HOW are you going to clean it up? The disease factor alone could kill you. Or how about 500-2000 gallons of FROZEN waste in the basement? But it will not if you listen to (and act) on my solutions." [End of quote]
He goes on to give TWO WAYS to fix it (I will post if requested). After reading this post, it occurred to me that (if it is true), entire neighborhoods could become uninhabitable. Consider the implications: Even if MANY were to do whatever is necessary to plug up their pipes to prevent this back-up, some WON'T. This could render the neighborhood an uninhabitable disease breeding ground. Does anyone know just how likely this scenario is?
One last point: Relocation to the country has seemed unavoidable due to probable danger from roving armed hungry bands (and no police force, and I'm a single, lone female with no knowledge of firearms, self-defense, or survival!) But relocating is just not practical without sufficient wherewithal, and without a 'y2k survival partner', so I was feeling resigned to (somehow) staying put. Now, since learning about this waste-water danger, I am back where I started: Relocating to the country, again, is probably unavoidable. Can anyone convince me that it ISN'T??
-- Emily Ingram (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 22, 1998.
For what it is worth, I have included this recent e-mail I received from a Y2K survival group for your information and comment.
As an Officer for the Federal Government, let me tell you that they do not have the peoples interest at heart. They are interested in preserving the government head as a whole, and have secured places and provisions for their selves. When all hell breaks loose, and people are directed according to zip codes to areas for their safety, most of these places lead to desolation. No provisions, etc. and will end up in chaos. For it is better that the majority of the people die, and preserve the government that they may be organized and prepared to pick up the pieces to rebuild the nation. They will not come out and directly say as to what is ahead. They are afraid of creating a panic, they want the people to know, that everything is in control, and will stress the importance of preparing for local disasters only. >I say to you. Follow the instinct of your intelligence. Be prepared, in all areas, secure a safe place for your family, with the necessary provisions, without panic. Keep in mind that most people feel secure in numbers; however my counsel is to be aware as to who you want to let know of your security, and provisions, remember the welfare of your family is of most importance. >Press forward.
-- JoeB (email@example.com), October 24, 1998.
Oh yuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the waste thread a lil above is just simply gross. Is this the TRUTH????? IF SO., what now? i planned on staying in the basement. Anyone know for sure? if you are telling the truthe, please post what you were gonna., i for one am interested.
-- consumer alert (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 24, 1998.
THE AMISH PEOPLE JUST LAUGH AT YOU MORONS. IT'S VERY SAD WHEN SOCIETY PANICS OVER SUCH FOOLISH SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-- CB (KIDPIERRE@AOL.COM), October 24, 1998.
Hey CB, are you amish dude or what? I AM INTERESSTED IN KNOWING IS THE ABOVE THREAD TRUE?????????
-- me (email@example.com), October 25, 1998.
CB, here's a suggestion,
Why dont you pretend you are a tv and tune out?
Your cursing is NOT appreciated. Take it to the howard stern site.
-- OHNO (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 25, 1998.
Yeah, right! How many Amish people do you know who cuss?
-- Gayla Dunbar (email@example.com), October 26, 1998.