A CHALLENGE TO 98 SUPPORTERS!greenspun.com : LUSENET : 1998 Guam Elections : One Thread
King Karl's supporters on this forum have danced around the issues with diversions and personal attacks, much like Karl does with the same issues in the public.
Here's my challenge: Answer the following specific points that have been brought up in this forum, without using diversions or personal attacks. You've all failed to do this so far, and I don't expect you to come through here.
But prove me wrong.
Here are a few to start with:
1) Federal funds were misspent on Hamlet and his Hilton hotel room, and this is proven by the tapes and the documents, and no one is denying this or giving a reason this was done.
2) Karl has used an illegal and false survey to get a PDN reporter off the political beat; Karl bought out Guam Cable News through his partially-owned UMDA to stop them from doing news; Karl made deals with the Kalvos for government contracts and dirty incinerator so that Karl could get good coverage, and reporters and talk show hosts were fired when they wouldn't bow to Karl; Karl and the Kalvos shut down the Kuentos election forum so no one could hear the truth about his administration.
3) Why is this incinerator deal in particular -- not just incinerators in general -- is GOOD for Guam? And why was the contract signed before the public could review and debate the terms of the contract -- the signing has obligated us to $8-10 million if we cancel the contract.
4) Karl admitted to having sex with his niece Missy Torres in ethics complaint documents that are in the legislature. Karl was married at the time.
5) Karl's 98 tv ads dishonestly imply that Angel now supports King Karl by using old footage of Angel, when he has publicly opposed Karl in recent years. In the same ad they have Patti Garrido, identified as a 'Chamorro Rights Activist', but not identified as someone with thousands of dollars in contracts with the governor's office. In another ad Ron Teehan, also identified as a 'Chamorro Rights Activist', but not identified as someone paid thousands of dollars by Karl.
6) Karl has illegally paved private driveways and illegally given free power on taxpayer expense to buy votes.
7) Karl claims to support education, but he sued the elected board of education for two years and a million dollars, resulting in the loss of DOD students and the loss of millions of DOD dollars. And he refuses to release money appropriated to DOE for textbooks.
8) Vision 2001 was created illegally, because it is a policy document and wasn't approved by the legislature as required by law.
-- Lighthouse Keeper (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 15, 1998
Karly is just in way over his head and just passes the buck!! He does not have what it takes to be a Governor!! He should just stay as one of the boys in the legislature hangout...having "functions" at his home on government time. The old rule applies...s*** goes downstream. I'm sure glad I do the flushing!!
-- Disney (email@example.com), October 15, 1998.
Dimmed Whitted Lighhouse
I challenge and dare Joe Ada to debate whatever in english, chamorro or tagolog language with Carl. Ask the mauleg boy to show up for the UOG debate if he dares. If I were Joe I would perfer attend a birthday party then to expose my 'planning' to the people of Guam.
-- Challenge (Challenge@kuentos.joke), October 15, 1998.
Your reply does not qualify as a response to my challenge, or as an answer to my points. It is a diversion, and in addition you have insulted me (dimmed whitted). This is the kind of response I was expecting.
If you have a challenge for Joe Ada, please direct it to him. I don't know the man.
Now, please, I am asking for an intelligent response to the eight points listed above. I look forward to it.
-- Lighthouse (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 15, 1998.
Are you Judas? Why is it that you deny that Joe Ada is your friend? Right now Joe needs a little help from his friends after the debate with Carl. What are friends for? Go give old Joe a mauleg kiss and wipe the tear drops. Show nothing but love for Joe.
-- (Don't Know@kuentos.com), October 16, 1998.
Lighthouse asked for an intelligent response. Hey bonehead, anyone in there?
Here's a few more:
1. Karl spent a million on illegal contracts for spicing up Government House. $200,000 in windows. We already know Geri said all the furniture was donated. Maybe she's not lying and they just didn't tell her about it, or maybe she's lying. Anyways, it was $100,000 worth or plush furniture. Paid for by GTA with no reimbursement. Karl gots expensive taste. He may have grown up poor, but he's forgotten where he's come from. He's a multimillionaire now.
-- (email@example.com), October 16, 1998.
Mr. Don't Know,
No, I am not Judas. I am Lighthouse. If you are looking for a friend of yours named Judas, please try the People Search at www.excite.com. I hope you find who you are looking for. Good luck.
As for your claim that I am a friend of Joe Ada's, it is outright false. I have never met the man (for more than 5 seconds), although I shook his hand at a fiesta once. If you have evidence to the contrary, please cite your sources. Otherwise, admit that your claim that I'm a friend of Joe Ada's is a lie.
TO EVERYONE: This person has made yet another attempt to divert the issues and has failed to address any of my points. On this thread alone, I will not tolerate this. If I get another diversion or personal attack on this thread, I will delete all answers daily (on this thread only) until I finally get an answer that intelligently addresses the 8 points above, without personal attacks or diversions. Thank you.
-- Lighthouse (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 16, 1998.
So tell me when did you meet Joe Ada? What fiesta? Who was there? Who did you come with? Who invited you? Did you eat? What did you drink? How long where you there? Did you leave with Joe Ada? Do you support Joe Ada? Did you speak to Joe Ada in English or Chamorro? What was Joe Ada wearing? Did you donate money to Joe Ada? How much ? Did you get Joe Ada some food? Did Joe use pomade? How long did you hold Joe's hand?... How often? Did Joe show you his honesty and integrity sign? Do you care for Joe Ada?
-- Don't Get Mad (Starr@kuentos.com), October 16, 1998.
98 supporters unite...!!!!
1. While your point on spending is well taken, a more important point needs to be made here..!! This is not about Ken Hamlet or G. Bamba. Who cares if either one gets trapped behind a smoking Tour bus. A free stay at the Hilton..?? Whoopty Doo..!! NO the real message here is the governor using his power to selectively provide preferential treatment to a selective few supporters.
lying to the people who were in far worse conditions tham Hamlet or Bamba.
LYING to the PUBLIC, the PEOPLE of GUAM, The PEOPLE to whom he is charged with protecting and providing for.
And add the tapes...well that only demostrates the above is true. It does not convict (tape is not emisssible). The tape does prove what the governor will do to cover up his organized crimes.
2. Carl could not purchase Guam Cable..!! Remember Jeff Evens..?? Instead, Carl used his clout at UMDA to have the FCC Violation suit Court Case "DRUGGED" out for as long as it took to bankrupt Guam cable. Yes, Omar help alot too...Carl may have resigned from UMDA but he still pulls his strings...How , You may ask?? Senator + Governor + Government contracts (like GIAA) = You got it...Orgianized crimes. UMDA owns MCV, not KUAM.. the Only winnings awarded to LEE Holmes. But remember that empty warehouse the Calvos leased to the Government for months. The Pepsi machines. Better yet..All those Illegal campaign adds that ran on Sept 5, 1998 (live remotes to 98 campaign camps) Those people who leaked out that KUAM Management insisted the PAID POLITICAL AD bi-line be droped so the remote looks like a real news report got canned or thrown off the AIR. (Sorry Chris, They need to know). Ever wonder why the Calvo's buildings are the only private buildings still housing goverment offices?
3. The incinerator is good for GUAM
It waste money Produces toxins Increases waste charges eliminates DPW jobs will be closed soon after the Feds EPA levy fines WHAT A HUGE SIGNING BONUS FOR TOMMY GUTIERREZ (no wonder he can afford to throw ICE parties)
4. IT WASN'T CARL'S FAULT (remember) SHE WANTED IT. (Carl has been taking lessons from another sick-O grooper: Bill Clinton.!! See how well he lies..??)
5. The difference between Angel Santos and Patti or Ron.. That's a tough one alright.
Angel: is not the most intellegent man nor does he claim to be... Does not jump on band wagons looks out for other people, not himself IS NOT CHEAP, He just can't be bought, ask Carl
6. It's amazing how cheap people are..!!!! look at route 3; back road--forget it; Yigo--try not to laugh.
7. Carl didn't count on losing control over the money...OOOPs
8. NO - it's legal as long as it does not change policy (like 3 Directors for Tiyan). However, It's psychodic; a waste; a broken promise to direct money for political hires like Bob Kelly. It's not a future movement, it's a future depletion.
Well, I tried to provide argumentative counterpoints to your points. I guess the only thing left do do is : 98ers Unite INSIDE DOC
-- ShadowMaster (email@example.com), October 17, 1998.
Shadow the shallow
You must be suffering as a result of traumtic damage to the brain. Symptoms depend on the extent and location of the injury. It certainly must be to the left side due to your language processing skills and your inability to perform or express coherently. Treatment involves a thinking and social therapy.
-- (Planner@kuentos.net), October 17, 1998.
Shadowmstr, You do NOT know what you are talking about re:
"Those people who leaked out that KUAM Management insisted the "PAID POLITICAL AD" bi-line be droped so the remote looks like a real news report got canned or thrown off the AIR."
I was the one who complained about how KUAM was running those ads. The ads were perfectly legal. They always ended with the tag "paid for by the 98 Committee, Peter Sgro treasure"
Someone at KUAM (now I know it was Chris) insisted on proceeding the 98 paid spots with a station disclaimer stating that it was a paid ad and did not represent the views of KUAM. NOTE: No other political ad had a KUAM disclaimer and the 98 spots did end with a complete legally required tag.
Because the station disclaimer I recommended the pulling of the rest of the ads. And I would do it again. Either you disclaim ALL political ads or NO political ads, but you can not selectively disclaim legally bought time.
If it were a 5 minute or longer infomercials or spots, bought by the campaign it would have been different (Then FCC rules require a disclaimer at begining and end) but these were 75 second spots and only required one disclaimer at the beginning or end and the 98 committee chose to put the disclaimer at the end.
CFR 47 Sec. 73.1941 (e) "Equal opportunities"
(e) Discrimination between candidates. In making time available to candidates for public office, no licensee shall make any discrimination between candidates in practices, regulations, facilities, or services for or in connection with the service rendered pursuant to this part, or make or give any preference to any candidate for public office or subject any such candidate to any prejudice or disadvantage; nor shall any licensee make any contract or other agreement which shall have the effect of permitting any legally qualified candidate for any public office to broadcast to the exclusion of other legally qualified candidates for the same public office.
[57 FR 208, Jan. 3, 1992, as amended at 59 FR 14568, Mar. 29, 1994]
-- Bob Kelley (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 17, 1998.
To Bob Kelly: I assume you support Karl for re-election. You are posting on this forum. Therefore, I am asking you to respond to the 8 points at the top of this thread. No one else seems to want to do so.
To "don't get mad": I won't answer questions about when and where and how I met Joe at a fiesta. You and others are trying to find out my identity so you can retaliate against me personally. It won't work. Okay, here's a little info: it was about two years ago, I didn't interact with Joe except when he was saying hi to people near me, I shook the hands of a couple other politicians, democrats and republicans. I don't have to answer questions about my personal life. I am not running for office. I am making points about people running for office and asking for responses.
To everyone: There have still been no answers to my points. There have been diversions (see "don't get mad" post). There have been no answers.
-- Lighthouse (email@example.com), October 17, 1998.
Thanks BOB, for proving me right! Again, I can always count on Bob Kelly to open his mouth and spill the beans.... Thanks for letting us know the "Truth," Bob.... And your little CFR cite does not cover broadcasting two commericals back to back and claiming they are the same (This is know as deceptive pratices) and is out lined in a seperate subparagraph... A live remote is one spot... A jingle is another spot.... Unless the jingle is within the background, as it was not during the live remote nor continued through to the claimer, it can not be called the same as another comerical.... There is clearly a difference here.... Even the Radio annoucers had to announce that they were different commericals. ***Now that you Know it is Chris?**** Sorry, Guess again. Chris confided in me the names and reasons as given to him by those affected; I was merely apoligizing for breaking that trust. Try Jeff Evans. Chris was fired before the commericals aired. He was not the first to mention it, just THE MOST POPULAR RADIO TALK SHOW ON GUAM. Ok, So Jeff didn't get canned, That's because he has a CONTRACT with a GOLDEN PARACHUTE. And the Calvos haven't made enough money to cover that Contract or Parachute. Everone who did the same as Jeff, did get canned or booted off the air. Again thanks Bob for proving me RIGHT.
-- ShadowMaster (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 17, 1998.
I guess in your opinion, you are right. However, 98 Committee bought 75 second spots. How those spots are produced is fully the prerogative of the 98 committee, and not the station. Note: One each spot was bought and paid for each insertion NOT two.
Please provide me a legal source that permits outside parties (like you or any other opposing party) a right to dispute how or what is presented by a political ad. There are times I would like to challenge commercials but I have always believed that "freedom of speech" (including production) had precedence to my opinions about a commercial I did not particularly like.
Again Shadowmstr, I am not going to get caught in a battle of mudslinging (it may be something else being slung) that you and others are engaging in on this forum. I dont have the time, energy or will to do so!!
As I have indicated earlier in this forum: I do support Carl!! Much good has been accomplished during his first term that benefit everyone on this forum. I will RESPECT those voters that disagree with me RESPECTFULY. I will continue to the best job I can in my appointed position. I will fight for the right of this forum to exist and the privacy of the posters just as I will fight for the privacy of telephone users and free speech in talk shows and advertisements (Provided they are not airing illegal material).
And a final note: I dont find this forum very encouraging. Not because members of it dont agree with the current administration, that is politics! The HATE and ANGER pent up in some members is truly destructive, both to them and our community. This saddens me!!
-- Bob Kelley (email@example.com), October 17, 1998.
Give me a break bobbie, You're here arn't you? You post quite a bit and you help feed on this so called "hate" you accuse this list of perpetuating, we all do, don't whine about it. Can't seem to avoid this forum can't you? Naturally you endorse karl, you got hired because of him for goodness sake! That point could be understood as a no brainer. well, enough time spent responding to your static.
-- johnny bravo cruze (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 17, 1998.
As moderator, you must be able to see why I have said my comments and participation might be a waste of time here. See thumbs comments. I think I am going to go to a 98 rally with my family. That sounds like more fun then sticking around here!
Someday I would like a rational explanation how I have fed the hate. I tried to be respectful of all members.
I have not attacked anyone personally. I have fully identified myself with my true name, my actual E-Mail address and telephone numbers. I have taken personal and public ownership of my opinions without hiding who I am! I have been the only one foolish enough to walk into here without a cloak of anonymity! And for that I get flamed. Adios
-- Bob Kelley (email@example.com), October 18, 1998.
Pleeze go several post up. Bob Kelly says Peter Sgro-tum is the 98 tresurer. No wonder he is with Hamlet.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 19, 1998.
On October 17, 1998 I responded to Shadowmstr's claim that the 98 Committee was not following the FCC rules regarding attribution of sponsorship on the 75 second political ads.
It was late and I made an error in the statement "They always ended with the tag 'paid for by the 98 Committee, Peter Sgro treasure.'" The treasurer is Tony Sgro NOT Peter Sgro.
It was never my intention to mislead anyone, but just an error due to fatigue.
I think we all owe it to each other to admit our mistakes.
-- Bob Kelley (email@example.com), October 19, 1998.
Just to sum up:
Not ONE person has adequately responded to my challenge in this thread. I'm looking for direct rebuttals of the 8 points I posted at the beginning of this thread. No one has done so. Everything posted here is irrelevant.
I'm beginning to wonder if there will be an answer to my challenge. I'm about to conclude that either 1) there are no good answers to my 8 points or 2) there are no intelligent 98ers out there.
Either way, it's really sad.
-- Lighthouse (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 21, 1998.
I would like to commend Mr.Kelly first on coming out utilizing his real name. I find it very brave and in some ways very mature.
On point one: It is tragedy that there were two conflicting statements given by Falstaff, I mean Hamlet. One in the PDN and then the other on Carls, I mean the Calvo Station KUAM. I believe the tatic use was to bring out George Bamba (with the red ribbon) to show how the money was being utilized for GOOD reasons. And the spin on the controversial accomodations put this as a lesser application. I love my senators but its really the House who now has the real power to force a good sound justice. Unfortunately, most of them are worried about the 98 virus.
Point two: It is not the manipulation of the system that I feel is the crime. But now the manipulation of the present information that is the crime. It is not only possible to think this has happened but I challenge you to attend the MFL, or listen for the speakers in the MBL, or even walk into the 7-11 and Pay-Less stores. You will see the kind of presence the Calvos bring to the enviroment. Ask Budweiser and Coke. Now with the incorporation of Carl, the Calvo persona is strengthened. So point two does not seem far fetched. As it remains unchallenged.
Point Three: I'm a strong suppoter of Joanne Brown, though she's commonly referred to as an oyster diner, I think she should get hard and on the ball on this one. The crime here is that the taxpayers are going to pay for this. Like many other things that did not go Carls way he left it to pelt, and had another pick it up. See how he abandoned the issue about the division of the school, and the rape pardoning issue; he use this same method to abandon the incinerator issue.
Point four: Is Carl being modest here? I must commend Gerri for sticking with him.And if this is an issue then what about his illegitamate son. If you've seen him, he looks just like Carl.
Point five: He's also posted an old picture in the PDN of him next to Michael Phillips. Has Michael moved over?
Point six: Run through MOGFOG, new roads everywhere and a whole bunch of new signs that just popped out. Red yellow and blinding.Sorry though the committie is still Pro-Rep. Also why aren't there any mass improvements in Tamuning (residential). Its not because its Republican Country. FACT: VILLAGE WITH LEAST SUNSHINE PLACARDS/BOARDS? TAMUNING.
Point seven: I am an educator. And when I say we are suffering, I mean it. Funny thing is this. Students rarely talk about talk shows, but for some reason middle school students to high school students seem to really talk almost daily about the Chris Barnett Show. I remember one time during an activity students were sitting in a circle listening to the Chris Barnett and John Sabares Show. It even led to an interesting thought on how the students felt about Guam and its applications on them. Too bad the show left. WELL IM NOT SURPRISED. GOLDEN RULE IS TO TAKE OUT THE EDUCATION PROGRAMS BEFORE ASSIMILIATING THE COUNTRY UNDER ONES REGIME. (Tactics of Wars and Rulers c1976)
Point eight: Throw that with the rest in the bucket.
Lighthouse I hope this will provide as a catylyst in persuading more people to answer your points. Or indirectly route them in answering your points by interpretating mine.
Also what happened to the lady busted with two kilos of ice, that was appointed by Carl to be a board director.
-- Edward Dumas (email@example.com), October 28, 1998.
In reference to the top of this thread. Do you really think it's possible that Carl forced UMDA to spend $57 million to buy Guam Cable TV just to silence their news? I don't think he has that much influence on ANY company. The decision was made for business reasons.
-- Get Real (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 28, 1998.
To Get Real,
Reality: Karl not only controls part of UMDA, but the other UMDA investors are all people who wouldn't mind Karl throwing some government kontracts their way. The Kalvos, for instance. So yes, it was a business decision. Reality is, it's very easy for Karl to get his way with companies who want government kontracts, especially companies he owns part of.
You have failed to provide any evidence that my claim is wrong. Do you have any answers to my other 7 1/2 claims?
-- Lighthouse (email@example.com), October 28, 1998.
Me fail to provide evidence? What about you? The Calvo's (or "Kalvos") DO NOT have an interest in UMDA anymore. This happened at the same time that UMDA sold their interest in KUAM. Do some research for a change.
-- Get Real (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 28, 1998.
You are seldom right study the regulations.
-- (email@example.com), October 28, 1998.
Oh, you're right. The Kalvos have no control over UMDA whatsoever. What could I have been thinking. You're in touch with reality. And I'm sure they have no business deals with UMDA investors, and they don't sell advertising for MCV or house the MCV offices in their building. Sorry. My mistake.
Oh, BTW, you forgot to dispute my point that Karl's UMDA bought out Cable so they could shut down Cable News. Just pointing that out.
-- Lighthouse (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 29, 1998.
I did address your question if you would just read it! You honestly mean to tell me that UMDA paid $57 million dollars just to close down Cable News? Does that sound reasonable to you? Would they have bought it even if it was a bad investment just to please Carl? $57 million dollars? Jesus, they could have paid everybody on the staff of Cable News $100,000 to quit and saved $56 million dollars. I'm sure Carl wasn't sorry to see Cable News go but I also don't think he influenced UMDA to spend that much money just to please him. Anyway, Larry Hilbloom had this deal in the works for 5 years. Don't be so damn blind.
-- Get Real (email@example.com), October 29, 1998.
I really do not know where the 57 million dollars came from. Perhaps we should ask Tony Leon Guerrero of the Bank of Guam he may have some idea where the money came from, afterall they have billions of dollars in Goverment of Guam bonds.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 29, 1998.
There's no need to get angry. Obviously UMDA had been negotiating with Cable for quite some time about the buyout -- you don't just make a decision like that overnight. Buying Cable was something that MCV had wanted to do, for monopolistic reasons, for awhile. But if you mean to tell me that shutting down Cable News and Jeff Evans' show had nothing to do with Karl's influence on MCV, you are not as in touch with reality as I thought. And if you tell me that Karl didn't put in money and offer government contracts to other UMDA investors, I know you're lying. Because you sound like you know a little bit about this deal, and this makes me think that you know as well as I do that these things happened. If you don't know that, let me tell you -- it's true. I know the UMDA investors (and yes, the Kalvos were involved) and I know how the deal went down. Don't try and tell me otherwise.
-- Lighthouse (email@example.com), October 30, 1998.
If you watched the debate last night, you'll see why were not voting for "economic Jones"
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 30, 1998.
And I quote the brilliant AJ Sonny Shelton, driver of a nice luxury Cherokee and maker of lots of money as director of DPR.
"The blood will be flowing down the streets from their wounds when they lose ... "
Good one, Sonny. The blood will be flowing down the streets? Sonny said that at the 98 Rally on election night.
Sonny, I own a business and you and Gil have tried to strongarm me for donations, threatening to cancel my Government contracts if I don't donate. I just could not afford $30,000.
You guys also pulled the Old GMH Demolition bid and gave it to some 98 company.
I don't think the people would really approve of the blatant and massive bid-rigging going on in the Gutierrez-Bordallo administration. Carl should stop giving bid after bid to GMP and Harry Gutierrez and Rentacom and JJ Moving Service.
Also, on a side note, I think that Ada/Camacho would have won if those directors had showed up for oversight hearings. Ada/Camacho would have won if the administration wasn't withholding information from the public.
The 98 Campaign has painted an illusion that everything is OK on Guam. While we sit through the happy-go-lucky 98 jingle, Unemployment is at an all-time high, thousands of cases are being dismissed (to win votes?), no books, low test scores, tourism is down, driveways still being paved, and trust me, no one is filling out those bogus "easement forms", and Carl has given out $2.5 million in poles and power extensions, charging it to an account that doesn't have a budget (Gov's Special Favors Account).
If those moron directors would have shown up, some very ugly truths would have been exposed, and the People would have yanked their support for 98.
Then Again, I guess that's why Ginger Cruz and the Gov's Office "suggested" the agencies not show up. they didn't tell the agencies, they SUGGESTED it.
Carl talks about opening his books, yet these directors and this administration continues to hide the truth from the voters.
What the Hell Are You Hiding Carl? Quit hiding. Unless you're scared of telling the truth.
-- None of Your (email@example.com), November 07, 1998.
We wont rest until the blood will be flowing down the streets from Sonny Shelton's wounds.
-- (Sonny@Iam.a.dork.com), November 07, 1998.