the difference between Joe and Carlgreenspun.com : LUSENET : 1998 Guam Elections : One Thread
I thought it would be interesting to talk about the differences between the two candidates running for governor. I feel that this is something that would be useful for those undecided voters.
-- I'm (email@example.com), October 13, 1998
One of the differences between the two is educational background. Joe Ada graduated from the University of Portland with a degree in Finance. Felix Camacho graduated from Marquette University with a degree in Business Administration. Carl Gutierrez doesn't even have an associates degree. However Madeleine Bordallo does have an associates degree, but in music.
What team do you think is more qualified to be your leaders of Guam?
-- brian cruz (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 13, 1998.
I thought we went through this education -vs- experience debate during the primary....the "it's time" camp was attacking the '98 camp on background and educational credits. Here is the down line. Carl grew up POOR he didn't have the luxury of going to college like the others who grew up with siver spoons in thier mouths....to make matters harder, Carl's father died while he was a teen...leaving him and his brothers to provide for the family. He latter joined the airforce and then started his own business on island and has gained numerous experiences as a businessman, father, and as statesman. He learned through hard work the value of money....his family didn't have a soap factory or inherited money from dad and mom....He earned his way to the top....there's not much I can say for Joe or Felix. I am pretty sure that if Carl had the money he would have went....and there are ALOT of major business men whoare financially set, who don't have degrees but can sure run a great buisiness. If Joe Ada had a finance degree then he sure wasted it through poor fiscal planning. as for the Madeleine, music is a very noble profession, and my mother has a music degree and she works hard and knows alot more than just music...you're just so tone deaf to understand that so I am not getting into that. She has experience far and beyond Joe and Felix....and she has proven herself....not much I can say about Felix. The only reason why people voted for him is because of his father....other than that people could care less... The Ada Camacho team is just looking for excuses why poeple shouldn't vote for the '98 team and this is the lamest so far....Desperate arn't we to pick on a mans educations without knowing why....If you want leadership go forthe team that has proven leadership the '98 team....and BTW, I have a degree and should qualify me to run for Lt. Gov. Joe Ada was so dsperate to find a running mate, he should have asked me.....oh wait, I don't have the chamorro last name, or the money like the chosen one!!
-- Matthew (email@example.com), October 13, 1998.
Matthew, You are making libelous and blatant accusations towards Joe/Felix. Have you seen them go out and utter those words of hate/animosity towards the 98 candidates. Also, Joe ADA was not aristocratic when he grew up. He worked hard, and had many jobs from janitor, construction worker, and so forth. Joe ADA paid his way thru life, college, and later became a successful senator who has contributed greatly to this island. Did you neglect the fact that Carl Gutierrez used to be Ricky J. Bordallo's right-hand man. Did you neglect the fact that it was Carl who reported Ricky's dirty dealings, the man who he looked up to, to the FEDS. Did you also neglect that during the ADA administration, Carl was the Chairman of Ways and Means, and passed the budgets for the 21st/22nd Guam Legislatures, the most expensive in history, excess budgets, vacation trips, nice furnished offices, and excess numbers of workers were just a few of the benefits of those senators. While people of Guam were suffering from loadshedding, the legislature was enjoying literally millions of dollars that Carl allotted to them. Did you also neglect that as Chairman of Ways and Means, Carl approved the GovGuam budget, of which there was a looming "payless payday" scare on the horizon. Joe ADA vetoed a lot of costly appropriations, in addition it was Carl T.C. Gutierrez who concocted/wrote the 5440 and tax rebate bill, the one he blames causes the fiscal problems, and the one that he blames Joe for. So ask yourself the question, who's fiscally responsible?
-- Frank Cruz (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 14, 1998.
OK, so Carla,i mean Carl doesnt have any education cuz he wuz a po man (but hes rich now, have you seen his castle in agana heigts? is he supposed to be a regular guy like us when he drives an expedition and his kids all drive expensive cars and hes a rich businessman?). anyway, back to education. so he doesn't have an education. fine. but what does he have to offer us, besides stupid stories about how he remembers his childhood. i think we all remember our childhood.
oh yea, i read the ad. carla, i mean carl should be our governor because he cares! oh! so that's all it takes to be governor. does that mean i can be governor, because i definitely care about our island and our people. or can my neighbor be governor, because he says he cares, even tho he doesnt. cuz from that ad all it takes is to say that you care. but what about the last four years when carl has run our govt broke and given all the money in contracts and jobs to his friends and family? who does he care about then? not us.
or maybe because he works hard. yeah, that's it. he works hard to get his friends incinerator project into law, but doesnt work hard to close the dump like the law requires. he works hard to suppress the media but doesnt work hard to get textbooks for our kids. my kid has to share a textbook with other classes and cant take it home to do homework or study for tests.
oh, i forgot. education isnt important. i'll just tell my kid that he doesn't need an education cuz he can just say he cares and work hard to get his friends govt contracts and maybe ... someday ... he can be governor and dance on the streets too!
-- Steve Mendiola (email@example.com), October 14, 1998.
One of your readers points out the educational differences between the two gubernatorial teams. I suppose one is to conclude that knowledge obtained within an institutional setting is somehow intrinsically superior to knowledge obtained without. Personally, I think Carl is a very intelligent person but then intelligence does not seem to be the pre-dominant characteristic of a truly great leader. What appears to matter more is motive, drive, compassion, objectivity and the ability to make decisions based upon that which serves the greater good for the longer period. I am quite aware that what constitutes the greater good is situational in nature and not always clearly defined. However, the effort itself to determine what constitutes the greater good in making decisions speaks well for those leaders who are so guided and motivated.
As for partisan politics, it appears to me that one's party affiliation is not a reflection of where one stands in respect to political ideology so much as which family one belongs to and, where a choice must be made because of family conflicts, which candidate at a given point in time can provide the most personal benefit. It seems we cannot look beyond a 4-year timeframe (less, when one subtracts the time allotted for campaigning and then getting settled into office)for the improvement of our island.
I guess the point of all this is that there appears not to be any essential difference between the candidates (their supporters wouldn't allow it, if for nothing else)and if one has nothing to gain or lose by choosing either of the candidates, one if forced to make a decision on the basis of the candidates' personal appeal. Who has the greater charisma?
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 14, 1998.
The big difference between the two candidates is that, in addition to not being a particularly effective governer, Karl has shown a complete inability to handle the responsibility that comes with the office. I'll refer you all to the other threads on this forum. Karl's only purpose as a politician seems to be to make himself and his family and friends even richer than they already are. If you fall into that group, as I suspect most of the people defending him here are, good for you. If you're one of the other 140,000 people on the island, tough cookies.
-- RTT (Ratt@tat.tat), October 14, 1998.
You seem to know alot about the Ada/Camacho camp....I wonder why...& you are so quick to defend Ada Camacho and the Republican Party for Libelous and Slandering statments....I kind of wish you were so defensive of the '98 team.
-- Matthew (email@example.com), October 14, 1998.
Actually, I don't know much about the Ada/Camacho camp. Being inside Karl's executive branch has given me insight into how he works, but all I know about Joe Ada is what I read in the newspapers during his term and what I heard on the talk shows.
You say I am quick to point out libelous statements against Ada/ Camacho ... that's a valid criticism. I have deleted two potentially libelous statements against people who oppose Karl (Charfauros and Joe Ada) and have deleted two potententially libelous statements against people in Karl's administration (Dennis Rodriguez and fire department officials). If you would like to point out other potentially libelous statements made against Karl that don't have evidence or sources, please do so -- point out specific statements. If you do so, I will look at the statement and very likely will ask the poster to cite evidence and sources, if he hasn't done so already.
Thank you for your concerns and the chance to clear that up.
-- Lighthouse (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 15, 1998.
It is true that an associates degree in musuic and personal experience could be useful in being a leader. I am sure Carl has great experience in business as well as both Joe and Felix. The difference is that Joe and Felix both have 4 year degrees in Business in addition to their experience. An arguement is made about Carl not having the money to go to college and if he did he would have went. Well, Joe didn't have the money to go either. He first went to UOG for two years(as mentioned in his biography) while working full time. Then he went to the University of Portland, again where he worked full time, and got a finance degree. Joe may not have been as poor as Carl states but that doesn't mean he didn't work as hard. If Carl wanted to go to college I am pretty sure he could of (I know he wasn't poor all his life). But, you are probably speaking to yourself saying that, "well the people elected him so I guess it doesn't matter and he IS intelligent with a lot of experience in business". I don't doubt that he is intelligent or that he doesn't know anything about business either. I am pretty sure that he has both. But, if I am going to vote for someone that will represent our Island as well as plan our future I am pretty sure I would want someone that meets higher standards. Having intelligence, business experience, and being a very good, charismatic politician is not enough to be a good governor. We need all of that as well as honesty, integrity, vision, and at least a college degree to hold such a high leadership position. We are not talking about a position like class president or village mayor.
This is not supposed to be a popularity contest. Carl may appeal to you more with his down to earth style and background as a poor young man rising to the top which is very admirable. But, when it comes down to it there were no such implications about corruption during the Ada administrations as there is now with the current administation(I guess that could be listed as another difference between the two). This could be a result of the lack of education from a higher institution of learning on Carls part.
NOTE: Business ethics is a core requirment for all business majors.
-- i'm (email@example.com), October 15, 1998.
In the response to the posting on experience counting more than a higher education:
I do feel that experience does count a lot. Hands-on experience in a certain field is a good thing to have. But, when you attend an institution of higher learning you are gaining the knowledge from from the experiences of experts in your field of choice. Is this a bad thing? Is it ever too late to go to college? Carl has had the chance to get a college degree but he chose not to. I think it would have been benificial to him if he had gone to college. Experience, intelligence, charisma, AND a COLLEGE DEGREE? WOW WHAT A COMBO! This is a value that we need to instill in our kids. College is a good thing! We don't want them saying, "hey the governor didn't go to college so why should I?" College is very important. 20 years ago you could get a good paying job and only need a high school diploma. Now everything is getting very competitive. YOU need to go to college. AND you don't have to have a lot of money to go either!! There are so many financial programs that are available to help you get a much needed education. There are no excuses!!
If college isn't important then why should any schooling be important? The knowledge obtained through experience of attending an institution of higher learning is important. It is especially important for high positions of authority(like Governor of Guam).
-- I'm (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 15, 1998.
It appears this particular issue is fast becoming one of formal education versus experience. Historically, not much was contributed from the academia in any field. So much for the experts. Far more came from individuals outside the formal halls of education, and that phenomenon continues today. Many of the ultra-wealthy and powerful never completed college and some went not at all. Why should one feel obligated to pay the dues that others insist upon. Carl is no less intelligent and no less who he is for not completing college. And Joe Ada is likewise no more and no less intelligent for having completed college. Ever wonder why college is a 4-year journey irrespective of the field one has chosen? Because college is a business enterprise just like any other. It is profitable to extend a field of study for a 4-year period because of grants and opportunity to make more money from tuition fees. Most fields require far less time to "master" than others and some, like mathematics and science, may require more time than, say, psychology. It is time humans quit thinking and behaving like cattle. We are not a herd. We are thinking individuals with vast potential and the ability to learn far more and at a far faster rate than what we have been led to believe. Education is of supreme importance, but that is not be confused with institutions that dispense knowledge for profit. Truth and knowledge are to be found everywhere and are not contained within selected instruments.
-- (email@example.com), October 15, 1998.
Listen, does it really matter who wins for Governor?? There is always two sides to the story and it seems that it really doesn't matter who is at the realm, because the same sheet happens over and over again!! I believe that there is no one person who is right for the job!! Too much intellectual debates/concerns without common sense as a directive, and way too much hyprocrisy!! I believe a survey on surviving in the business world has a person with a high IQ'/degrees vs. a person with streetwise smarts. Guess who comes out on top???? Go figure...
-- Disney (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 15, 1998.
I understand this is a big digression but I can't let your statements go by unchallenged. While I agree with you that institutions of higher learning are operated for profit and spread a lot of propaganda about the value of a college education,your comment that "historically, not much was contributed from the acadamia in any field" shows remarkable ignorance. Modern colleges have only been around for about 200 years and that's been the largest factor in our technological advancement since that time. The reason you don't have any more DaVincis, who can invent hundreds of useful gadgets, is that the level of advancement is out of reach of the uneducated Joes out there. I have no interest in the "ultra-wealthy" who mainly reach their status by accident of birth.
-- RTT (Ratt@tat.tat), October 16, 1998.
Frank "Ko" Cruz, why do you always capitalize Ada? Doesn't ADA stand for American Disability Act?
-- Eloise (Elfin9@yahoo.com), October 19, 1998.
On December 30, 1994, his last week in office, Former Governor Joseph F. Ada pardoned or commuted the sentences of the following convicted criminals:
Fred P. Diego - criminal sexual conduct; John L.G. Benavente - criminal sexual conduct; Thomas Copolla - criminal sexual conduct, burglary & terrorizing; Juan C. San Agustin - criminal sexual conduct; Antonio R. Cabrera - assault with a deadly weapon; Jim J. Farnum - posession of a controlled substance; Manuel T. Perez - impersonating a police officer; Tony R. Perez - attempt to promote prison contraband; George M. Quitugua - assault with a deadly weapon; Elaine D. Torres - theft and forgery.
-- Spotlight (email@example.com), October 20, 1998.
Eloise, Don't think ADA stands for that. Can't you think of a more mature response. Ada happens to be derived from an actual chamorro word (which is more than I can say about Gutierrez) a'ada' which means mimicker or mocker. The actual meaning of he name has no importance. My point is that its one of the few real chamorro names on Guam. Another one for example is Taitano. So if you are an actual chamorro(which I doubt) you shouldnt' be so quick to make fun of that name. Especiall since there are other people other than Joe that may be offended.
-- a big (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 20, 1998.
Eloise had no intention of making fun of a true Chamoru name. We just think its funny that Frank Ko Cruz always capitalizes Ada. Yes, we are Chamoru.
-- Antonio (email@example.com), October 20, 1998.
You go Chamorro@hotmail.com. I think that Eloise (who sounds Filipino) should respect the last name. How many other indigenous Chamorros name exist? Gumataotao is another name that I can remember. Any other suggestions out there
Cruz, Gutierrez, Torress, Calvo, Flores, San Agustin = all evidence of Spanish rule & surnames
Shinohara, Shimizu, Tanaka = all evidence of Japanese rule
Is Bordallo an indigenou chamorro name?
-- Proud Chamorro to (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 20, 1998.
Some folks Uncle Carl has set free:
1.Henaro M, Ngiriilid - criminal mischief, DUI, aggravted assault. 2. Mario V. Champaco - burglary, theft. 3. Joseph Gogue Cruz - theft, theft of property. 4. Lief Eric Quinene - robbery. 5. Steven Q. Rabago - aggravtd assault, burglary. 6. Anita A. Aguon - criminal sexual conduct, misdemanor child abuse. 7. Gerber Partosa Ubrino - DUI. 8. Edward Frank Asuncion - forgery, criminal mischief. 9. Francis Peter T. Aguon - robbery, burglary, theft. 10. Billy Santos Borja - illegal possession of a firearm, burglary, disturbing the peace. 11. Vincent Perez Babauta - involuntary manslaughter. 12. Cezar Borja Castandiello - family violence. 13. Godfredo L. Espiritu - criminal sexual conduct.
-- (email@example.com), October 21, 1998.
FYI....sometimes it's a better option to look at not only two.....but perhaps a third option.
As far as the similarities and differences between the two gubanatorial candidates are concerned...the phrase "The lesser of two evils" is not a choice I wish to exercise.
I am in the school of thought of: "Why don't we consider DONALD DUCKS as a write-in". At this point of the debates, he seems a candidate of the same caliber!
BOTA! BOTA PARA DONALD DUCKS!!!
-- beepbeep (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 23, 1998.
Never before have i seen an administration that is intimidating and vindictive to those employees who go against Sir Carl, his highness. All those who work for govguam know they cannot speak against what his highness wants for fear of becoming blacklisted. I speak from experience. AS a spouse of a long time government employee, i have seen the morale of the agency he works for hit rock bottom. My husband has been victim of Sir Carl's wrath, for not agreeing on a major issue (should i reveal the issue, this administration would know immediately who i am, and would continue to make like miserable for my spouse). Everyone in that agency who knew Sir Carl was wrong was too chicken to speak out against him, and for all the right reasons. Do we want to continue to be ruled by what appears to be a dictator? Joe Ada may have made mistakes during his last years as governor, but at least he was honest, and FAIR. He respected the opinions and their expertise,and empowered them to do their job. I truely believe that Joe Ada has the finest advisors to run our government. Finally, I believe that good prevails. Biba taotao Guam!
-- cathy (email@example.com), October 23, 1998.
Well said. It's exactly the same in my agency. Repression, intimidation, fear of Karl's wrath. No one dares to speak out against what's going on. Everyone forced to go to rallies and motorcades. Put 98 stickers on your car. Or else you obviously don't support the governor. Why do you think I can't post on this forum with my real name? And have people guessing that I'm former journalists or a court director. I hate posting with a pseudonym, but I'd rather do that than be quiet. I think no matter how much Karl has fooled the public with his huge rallies and motorcades and large number of stickers and signs, the government workers know what's going on, and the ones with a conscience aren't casting their ballot for Karl.
-- Lighthouse (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 23, 1998.
The reason why you have not posted your name is because you continue to lie and post things that are evil and cast suspicion with facts incomplete and be able to hide in the dark like the coward you are. You have harm lots of people of all classes due to your hate for the 98 and to preserve your highly paid position. Your dilgience for falseness makes you a lesser of a man and you shall soon see.
-- (email@example.com), October 23, 1998.
Instead of the differences between Joe and Carl, I'd like to bring attention to what they have in common (Aside from the fact that both of them as well as Angel and Tom are all cousins). That is that they are both able to be civil with each other and that the only "attacks" that they launch on each other are based on matters that are public knowledge. Perhaps they do underhanded things behind each other's backs but they both at least maintain a public image of respect for one another. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they occassionally have a beer or two together and have conversations along the line of: "Lanya primo, that was a good one you pulled on me in that ad!" Another important commonality they share is that they both have numerous supporters who share none of the above traits. These are the supporters that spread rumors and/or outright lies; that can't even be reasoned with because you are automatically considered an enemy if you don't support their candidate; that will twist any word or action to their own ends; and that just plain need to "chill".
-- Bob (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 23, 1998.
Dear outhouse, I mean lighthouse,
I really don't think employees, govguam employees for that matter were in your words "Forced" into going to rallies, motorcades, or put stickers on their cars by anyone...No one held guns to their heads to do any of the sort, I believe all this may have been said to discredit this adminstration with outrages remarks...
That is why we have the CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION...
so OUT-HOUSE, BE REALISTIC, AND IF YOU KNOW OF ANYONE WHO WAS FORCED TO DO POLITICAL THINGS, SEND THEM TO THE CIVIL SERVICE.....
You ARE such a loser, come November 3rd, you will be in the same boat as your candidate....ada
-- . (still the email@example.com), October 26, 1998.
To The One:
You are quite mistaken. First, the Civil Service Commission is a joke when the governor controls the director and the board as he does now. Any complaints against the governor would be ignored. I don't think your suggestion that I take complaints to the governor's commission was very realistic.
Second, there are employees who are practically forced to go to these rallies and motorcades, because the directors are under such pressure to get their employees out. There is a minimum number of employees that each agency has to bring to the rallies. If you don't believe this, I probably won't be able to convince you with my first-hand accounts, but what matters to me is that I know it's true, and that is what will influence my vote. I think other government employees who know this is true will also vote their conscience. Your vote seems to be already decided, and I won't waste my time on this point. It's not important enough to me -- I think the larger issues of corruption, media control and political favoritism are more worth my time.
Thanks for your concern.
-- Lighthouse (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 26, 1998.
Well, cast my vote for Joe. I just happened to be off-island and missed out on those nice $1500 checks he was handing out when he was governor.
-- shomeda munay (email@example.com), October 28, 1998.
The difference between these 2 men is plain and simple. Governor Carl Gutierrez wants to be remembered as the King of the hill. Joseph Ada wants to be remembered as Simple Joe.
I feel more relaxed supporting someone that would like to be remembered as a simple man. Only because it is clear to see that he doesn't only think of his own interest. Joe Ada has my vote. And I am a DEMOCRAT!
-- Democrat (Voter@guam.com), November 01, 1998.
Sure, If I owned a $600 million dollar corporation with 13,000 employees who served 150,000 customers, I'd sure choose a "simple joe" to run it... not a man with strong leadership skills and intelligence like Carl.
Nice guys may make nice friends, and may even make OK senators, but when the future of my children is at stake, I go for the guy who can DO THE JOB.
-- Trust (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 02, 1998.
You state that Karl would be better at running a $600 million dollar corporation with 13,000 employees that serves 150,000 customers, because Karl "can DO THE JOB."
Nicely put. But you've failed to support your assertions -- exactly what proof do you have that Karl can DO THE JOB? Crime is at an all- time high, according to police stats, and ice use is worse today than ever -- and yet only now is Karl getting more police officers after three years of a freeze on police officers and taking officers to guard himself and his children.
Education is failing after Karl sued the board of education for three years, lost DOD funds to education and continues to withhold funds for textbooks.
The economy is failing and unemployement is at an all-time high and yet Karl only now is putting out a plan to deal with the crisis, won't release unemployement statistics and continues to spend government money wildly and hire govt employees indiscriminately.
And his entire administration is korrupt, being investigated by the FBI and is soon to be investigated by U.S. Congress and the U.S. Inspector General.
So on four key issues -- crime, education, economy and honesty -- Karl has failed to DO THE JOB. Any questions?
-- Lighthouse (email@example.com), November 03, 1998.
We're still the one.
-- Spotlight (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 03, 1998.
Steal the funds
-- (email@example.com), November 03, 1998.
The difference is Joe Ada LOST and Carl came out victorious, despite the harsh negative accusations from Chris Barnett, Angel Santos, Mark Charfaurous, Felix Camacho, Joe Ada.
And once the dust settles, I hope and pray that the animals who attack not only character, but families get what is comming to them.
So, as "Simple" as Joe would like to be remembered, HE IS A LOSER, HIS "HITA" AND TOM&LOU" SUPPORTERS ARE LOSERS TOO, THEY ALL LOST AGAIN, TWICE.
Now who's STILL THE ONE!!!
-- Hita for 98 (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 03, 1998.
"Hope they get what's comming to them ..."
Nothing like a political intimidation and retribution to critics of the administration.
But wait, I thought this was an open democracy, a government where people can openly criticize their leaders.
More power to Angel and Mark and those who speak out against the FBI-investigated corruption in the Gutierrez-Bordallo administration. I don't know why you're lumping Chirs Barnett in with those guys, he just said the administration is being investigated by the FBI.
That is true isn't it?
Watch out Carl and cronies, your celebration won't last too long if you win the runoff. Hear those indictments are coming down. Gil, maybe you should give Guam Housing back the loan. You don't need it.
-- (email@example.com), November 03, 1998.
stillwaitnsee if mauleg can win
Yeah so sorry I can't wait time won't let me. Got to go to the 98 victory party. You can just sit around I know you got nothing to do and dream on while 98 continues having fun because we are Still the One.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 03, 1998.
I guess no one took my plea for good sportsmanship after the election very seriously. I'm sorry we can't be a little more courteous to each other. Disagree, rip apart the other person's arguments -- fine. But rubbing people's noses in your victory, or calling people names, is not called for. I'm not sure we all want to see everyone's true colors.
-- Lighthouse (email@example.com), November 04, 1998.
To: Hita for 98
All Hita, Tom & Lou, and Ada/Camacho supporters may be losers to the election but we all remain winners to the fight for good, clean government- because it doesn't stop here. I guess you see yourself as a winner, but remember "Traitor" will always follow your title. Hita for 98??? That is definitely an oxymoron. When did Karl care for "us"? He's in it for himself.
-- true winner (ABC@hotmail.com), November 04, 1998.