Martial Lawgreenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
I think that Y2k is likely to trigger martial law throughout the US. The Brits are openly preparing for this now, and the first open preparation by the US National Guard (Wisc.) has started. I expect this to continue throughout the next year, as our govt./media "breaks it to us gently" to minimize panic. Eventually we'll all have seen "The Seige," and countless other dramatizations; talking heads will go through the motions of debate, and we'll all be conditioned to it, ready to "muddle through."
But what's the long-term prognosis for democratic government? I would trust our govt. to implement martial law in an emergency - if they hadn't been shooting holes in the constitution for the last few decades, perfecting technologies of survelliance and infiltration of political groups, and circumventing the constitution. I mean, there's no 4th amendment anymore. The 2nd amendment will be the next to go. And in a "national emergency" you can expect any outspoken criticism of the game-plan to be counted as "seditious speech," So goodbye 1st amendment. "Hell, why not scrap the whole thing and start over? After all, we're really an important Trade Block now, not just a little "nation" anymore..." Is this really such an outlandish scenario? With Waco, the lines between military and police are already blurred, and the posse comitatus law (which says you can't turn military on the citizenry) is defunct. A police state is clearly on the agenda, from where I'm standing. Y2k would be just be an excuse. I just want to ask you all: are you ready? What will you do? Wait it out, silently, while gun collections are seized and right and left wing "extremists" - or anyone with their own political website - "disappear" in the night? What about those American Military who have been training death-squads in Latin America? Maybe they're tired of the big commute, and want a job closer to home. I just don't think some people's political good manners are going to thrive in a martial law environment. And I think it's telling that the Executive Orders of the last twenty years or so contain detailed provisions for the suspension of constitutional government and military control of almost every aspect of our lives; but nowhere in those orders is found the procedure whereby democratic government is re-established. We may be glad of military control in a real emergency. But absolute power corrupts, and America's democracy can't afford much more corruption at this point.
I'm not inciting people to resist, necessarily, just to think, and to talk about it; which is ultimately more subversive of unjust authority. That's why dictators (and wannabes) keep lists of outspoken or politically active people, and kill all the college professors and freethinking people first thing, as in Chile, Argentina, etc.,etc... Is this eventuality something we "little people" need concern ourselves with? Why? Why not? Does our elected government owe us some guarantee that, should martial law be implemented, there will be a clear guidelines for restoration of free and democratic elections, asap? What if they don't? What if there are "gun sweeps" making any such guarantee moot? What if people "disappear?" What will you do?
btw: here's one reason why I'm so concerned. This isn't the future; it's happening now: http://www.jya.com/stoa-atpc.htm
-- E. Coli (email@example.com), October 07, 1998
I have heard this and similar prophecies for 25 years... none of them amount to anything. There may, someday, be a worldwide beaurocracy, but it won't have any teeth and it won't survive if the promoters attempt to give it any. As for y2k inducing "Martial Law", there are about 500+ citizens to every soldier/national guardsmen/law enforcement officer in this country. They couldn't even guard important food and infrastructure points, if the citizenry didn't want them to. And if you think there will be foreign troops here enforcing "Martial Law", think again. NOTHING would ignite a revolution quicker !! As for me, I'll defend my family, home and food. The biggest threat is not from government.
-- Bertin Opus (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 07, 1998.
Don't fret inciting resistance, as Alice Walker and other have said..it is: "possessing the secret of joy"
-- Donna Barthuley (email@example.com), October 07, 1998.
I agree with you. Like I said once before, there are plenty of folks out there just burbling over with supressed rage and feelings of inadequacy who will jump at the chance to be the Feared Ones. I worked for many years in support of active & reserve & NG troops, and among them there were very few who expressed a desire to strong arm anyone. They were all willing to defend America, but I met only a handful who seemed eager to impose through force.
I think that the folks who are currently wearing uniforms are not the ones who will rush to strip us of our rights. I'm afraid it will be the fungus among us who will warm up to the idea of intimidating their neighbors. ie., The fungus guy whose auto loan was turned down gets an opportunity to search the bank manager's house for hoarded goods, etc.
You get my drift, I'm sure. Maybe I've been watching too many movies, but I really don't think that a lack of communication or large scale organization of "troops" will inhibit the develoment of localized, self-appointed authorities. No doubt they will meet with lots of resistance, but I think we're foolish if we believe the guy down the street will stop them with a .12 guage, and the "authorities" won't make it to our house.
-- Arewyn (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 08, 1998.
E. (and others),
I think the key to the whole "martial law" thing and the eroding of democracy, bill of rights, etc. will be the idea that after enough hardship, large numbers of people will GET ON THEIR KNEES AND BEG for "law and order."
Our "elected officials" (meet the new boss, same as the old boss) will "listen to their constituents" and "do whatever is necessary" to ensure peoples' "health and welfare."
Look, there are large sectors in this country that LOVE china, LOVE all those little central and south american dictators, LOVE those oil princes. They LOVE control and "security." "Stability" is the key to capitalism, "the economy" is more important than the people it is supposed to server.
I don't even want to get into things like the "war on drugs." It's just a big scam to keep us all frightened so that we will accept any tactics that "they" choose to "keep us safe from the scourge." C'mon, gang, anybody here know about the airstrip at Mena, Arkansas?
-- pshannon (email@example.com), October 08, 1998.
The only solid argument against the idea, that dictatorship is imminent, seems to be the "1:500 troop-to-citizen ratio" propounded by Bertin. Seems to me that this can be addressed through A) conscription, especially of disaffected, impoverished gang-trained youth, and B) the microwave and other crowd-control technologies that allow one man to cause 1000+ people to puke simultaneously, or die, at the touch of a button. Please read the info in the URL on my original post, this thread. I was hoping that somehow I'd got it wrong, and someone could talk me out of my conclusion.
I agree, Pshannon, that they'll have us all begging for it, with another OKBomb/Gulf of Tonkin/Reichstag Fire ploy. Y2k might be enough in itself, or there may be more terrorist acts attributed to "militias." The good old "enemy within." We'll have to destroy the village in order to save it, but this time the village is U.S. democracy, and the Constitution that guarantees our freedoms.
Talk me out of it! Give me a solid reason why this isn't happening! No one wants to deal with this, but is there anyone who can address the facts and tell me the power elite isn't preparing for martial law in the U.S.? I think all this started with a determination on the part fo the powers that be to never again allow the kind of "war at home" that we saw during Vietnam. The next time our banks and manufacturers want to pursue an highly unpopular military adventure, the citizenry must be bound and gagged, to prevent protest. Read the URL above, on technology, and read this, and tell me it's not happening:
F.E.M.A. (Federal Emergency Management Agency) has been authorized for the past 15 years by Presidential Executive Orders to confiscate all property from the American People, separate families in the current 43 internment camps (already built and operational by the way, 5 of which are located in Georgia. The largest can confine somewhere on the orderof 100,000 American citizens), called relocation camps by the government, for assignment to work camps; declares martial law and totally overrides the U.S. Constitution. Presidential Executive Orders that are related or control this are given at the end of this. Two of the state prisons here in Georgia are currently empty, although manned by a minimul number of staff, have been setup and intentionally unpopulated by prisoners just to support this political policy.
Concentration (internment) Camps. An Executive Order signed by thenPresident Bush in 1989 authorized the Federal Emergency Management Agency (F.E.M.A.) to build 43 primary camps (having a capacity of 35,000 to 45,000 prisoners EACH) and also authorized hundreds of secondary facilities. It is interesting to note that several of these facilities can accommodate 100,000 prisoners. These facilities have been completed and many are already manned but as yet contain no prisoners. (Remember all the talk of over-crowded prisons that exist...). In south Georgia there are several state prisons that except for a few guards, are completly devoid of prisoners.
Under F.E.M.A., the Executive Orders which are already written and is the current law of the land, calls for the COMPLETE suspension of the United States Constitution, all rights and liberties, as they are currently known. The following executive orders, which are in the Federal Register located in Washington DC for anyone to request copies of, call for the suspension of all civil rights and liberties and for extraordinary measures to be taken in, as most of the orders state, "any national security emergency situation that might confront the government." When F.E.M.A. is implemented, the following executive orders will be immediately enforced:
E.O. 12148 - FEMA national security emergency, such as: national disaster, social unrest, insurrection, or national financial crisis.
E.O. 10995 - "... provides for the seizure of all communications media in the United States."
E.O. 10997 - "... provides for the seizure of all electric power, petroleum, gas, fuels and minerals, both public and private."
E.O. 10998 - "... provides for the seizure of all food supplies and resources, public and private, and ALL farms, lands, and equipment."
E.O. 10999 - "... provides for the seizure of all means of transportation, including personal cars, trucks or vehicles of any kind and total control over all highways, seaports, and waterways."
E.O. 11000 - "... provides for the seizure of ALL American people for work forces under federal supervision, including splitting up of families if the government has to."
E.O. 11001 - "... provides for government seizure of all health, education and welfare functions."
E.O. 11002 - "... designates the postmaster general to operate a national registration of all persons." (Under this order, you would report to your local post office to be separated and assigned to a new area. Here is where families would be separated).
E.O. 11003 - "... provides for the government to take over ALL airports and aircraft, commercial, public and private."
E.O. 11004 - "... provides for the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, designate areas to be abandoned and establish new locations for populations."
E.O. 11005 - "... provides for the government to take over railroads, inland waterways, and public storage facilities."
E.O. 11051 - "... the office of Emergency Planning (has) complete authorization to put the above orders into effect in time of increased international tension or economic or financial crisis."
All of the above executive orders were combined by President Nixon into Executive Order 11490, which allows all of this to take place if a national emergency is declared by the President.
The Omnibus Crime Bill of 1990. Ensures confiscation of all private property via money laundering, environmental violations of the Clean Water and Air Act, and extends as far as child abuse. This act also coordinates activities through F.E.M.A. and the Department of the Army, Commanding General, U.S. Forces Command, Fort McPherson, GA which is the executive and implementing agency upon initiation of many of these acts.The responsible agency within U.S. Army Forces Command was what used to be known as the Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations, Plans Division (DCSOPS, Plans), which was changed several years ago to J-3 after the Headquarters became a joint headquarters. They keep on file copies of all F.E.M.A. Emergency Management Operation Plans, including those plans developed by the Army to support the F.E.M.A. plan to eliminate the U.S. Constitution upon implementation. According to current plans, the Constitution will be temporarily discontinued and shelved until the real or perceived and declaired 'threat' has been neutralized. But once 'shelved,' as with almost every other action of the Government, it stays shelved.
The Crime Bill of 1994. Banning of all military weapons which are necessary to the formation of a militia (when needed), denies other military equipment to the people's militia units, prelude to confiscating ALL guns in the hands of private citizens, destroys the 1st Amendment, and makes virtually every American an outlaw. The agency responsible for the actual implementation and search is the Department of the Army in concert with local and state police, including F.E.M.A., FBI, BATF, and other Federal Agencies. <>
-- E. Coli (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 08, 1998.
-- pshannon (email@example.com), October 08, 1998.
I have one big problem with the idea that our leaders: Politicians, bankers, industrialists, businessmen etc. would want to enslave the population that makes them wealthy and powerful? Americans, as long as we have the illusion of freedom, work like hell and are very productive. We feed, clothe, shelter medicate and educate ourselves. We pay about 1/2 of our earnings in taxes of all sorts, buy products that we don't really need and keep the economy going, and when required, send our sons to war to keep things at a status quo. Our leaders/rulers have the best of both worlds just the way things are now. Educated people in the south knew that slavery as an institution could not compete with the northern worker. The civil war was not fought over slavery. Slavery is very expensive and unproductive. Why put the American population in camps? What could they buy without incomes? I had a pretty radical social science teacher in high school. He said, and I believe. You can be anything you want in this country as long as you are a consumer. Crack mothers, welfare cheats, drunks all consume. If you do not earn money, the government will give you money,but you must consume. If you buy whiskey or dope with the welfare check,and starve your kids it does not matter. You must be a consumer. The guy you bought it from will buy a Cadillac, Ford or Chevy. How many slaves could borrow 125% of the value of their homes to go on consuming the way they urge us to do every day in TV commercials? Being in debt is much more valuable to the country than being in slavery.
Bill in South Carolina
-- Bill Solorzano (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 08, 1998.
Let's see if that fixes the italics....
I've dealt, mockingly, with the conscription issue in another thread. Suffice it to say that the military seems to be just as hosed as everyone else -- if Y2K triggers a collapse, the military won't know who to conscript (and do you really think they'll just give weapons to gang-bangers?). The whole idea behind boot camp is to break down your sense of self & rebuild it as part of the corps... and that takes a few months. Oh well, come Jan 2000, there won't be a few months.
Then there's Bill Solarzano's argument -- our so-called "masters" are better off keeping us working & in debt. It's cheaper that way.
Oh yeah, E, do you have any locations for those Georgia camps? A county-by-county listing will be sufficient. I need an excuse to do some motorcycle riding this beautiful cool October weekend....
-- Larry Kollar (email@example.com), October 08, 1998.
I agree, Bill. I think this overt martial law/totalitarian state will be a phase, used to disillusion people. Only dissenters, ecofreaks, militia-members, christian fundamentalists, etc., will be isolated in camps. Expect drug use to be legalized; do you know how many cells that will open up? That's essentially FEMA's REX 84 program, as per Senator Brooks' inquiry of Ollie North (FEMA architect) in the Iran-Contra hearings: round-ups and internments of anyone suspect, who would speak out against an all-out war in Central America (they hand out blankets after hurricanes, too. Good people.). The goal is to create a United Western Hemisphere, a United States of the Americas. It's already happening through GATT, and when MAI goes through, it will be the nail in the coffin. Has anyone here even heard of MAI? Look at the "European Union." It went from an "economic community" to a political "union" in the blink of an eye, didn't it? That is happening here; we've controlled our banana republics for decades, and now we're going to make it official and overt. We used to expand our borders by taking say Texas, with cannons blazing; now we "walk softly" by supressing dissent, controlling the media and bribing foreign elites with "loans" - and call the eventual liquidation a warm fuzzy "international agreement" instead of an invasion. My concern is that the quality of government in North America is going to become more like that of Mexico and South America, and not vice-versa. We are going to lose our Constitution, and I don't expect we'll get it back. I agree that corruption is very good for business; the Bill of Rights is a pain in the ass for business. You can still have consumerism without freedom of speech, assembly or gun-ownership.
-- E. Coli (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 08, 1998.
You make an assumption; you assume that "our leaders" are actually in control of something. You assume that they are freely elected "by the people" and "represent" same. You assume that they are somehow attached to the notion of "America." I submit to you that this is not necessarily the case.
I recently read a U.N. study. I don't remember where on the web I saw it, and I don't have time to find it at the moment (however, if someone asks me to, I'll search for it). It said basically that the richest 240 families in the world are worth more than the annual income of everyone else on the planet.
These are the people with real power. And they are internationalists. They are and will be the masters of the global community. National politics are not the game of the future. Global control of resources is where it's at...
-- pshannon (email@example.com), October 08, 1998.
E.- No one can "talk you out of it." But here are a few things to ponder...
1- All the EO's you cited have been REVOKED ! They are all included in EO # 12656, and to enact any or all of them, there must be a congressional vote (senate, I believe) .
2- FEMA and the military are in dire straits, re y2k. Just keeping head counts, feeding the troops, paying them, and dealing with the rest of the world will keep them busy. Imagine trying to take care of the hundreds or thousands of troops overseas... FEMA is tiny. They will act in urban areas only, providing food, etc.
3- And finally, regarding the study you pointed us to; I have seen a few like this over the last several years. They are nothing more than words. THEY WON'T FIX CODE ! None of the other similar proposals ever went anywhere. I see no evidence that this will either...
-- Bertin Opus (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 08, 1998.
1. They haven't been "REVOKED!" ; they've been superceded, as has #12656, which you site; that means they've been absorbed under the authority of subsequent orders, amended, edited, added on to. That order was written by Reagan on November 23, 1988. Clinton has been busy since then. I encourage everyone to do a search on this issue (particularly Clinton's recent EO on federalism, that was such an affront to the Constitution that he withdrew it in a storm of protest). My understanding is that, in time of real national emergency, the executive can, as commander in chief of the armed forces, implement whatever he pleases, and Congress is actually forbidden to interfere for a six month period. These emergency powers were originally designed for a nuclear attack (though later expanded to cover "electronic terrorism" and any "threat to critical infrastructure"), so I doubt we'd stand around waiting for a the house and senate to debate jack diddly. Can anyone clear this up with the appropriate reference, to support either position? My understanding is that these are the plans we revert to, the wiring of our country's autonomic nervous system, so to speak. If the heat is on -failure of critical infrastructure- the most recent E.O. plan will be rubber-stamped, and the stamp thrown away.
2. The military... we have no idea what kind of shape America's real teeth and claws are. But we do know that the generals always walk with a limp while they're on the way to the congressional tax-trough! Remember the "missle gap?" Check out a book called "Blank Check." It's about the curious phenomenon of a "black budget." Also remember that Ollie North was heavily involved in FEMA. Whatever else you may say about him, he has a certain knack for fundraising. For more on this read "Dark Alliance" by Gary Webb. We're looking at a parallel government, parallel technological development; I don't think it's so outlandish to conclude that there are probably troops we aren't told about, as well as foreign policy, war plans and technologies.
3. Huh? You didn't read the report. Shouting doesn't obscure anything. It's called "An Appraisal of the Technologies of Political Control," commisioned by the European Parliament. Right here: http://www.jya.com/stoa-atpc.htm It's not about "FIXING CODE" it's answers your earlier objection in this thread, to the effect that martial law could never occur without the consent of the citizenry, because there is a 500-to-1 ratio of troops to citizens. These technologies even the odds, and then some.
No one who has half a clue about what's going on is talking about fixing code as the primary objective anymore. Contingency plans are the focus. Britain's Y2k czarina said as much last week: "it's too late." Sure, keep fixing what you can, but it's now all about picking up the pieces. And I think a lot of those "pieces" will be picked up house to house, at gunpoint, in the dead of night, if we shelve the constitution as planned and let the military/executive branch run the show indefinitely. This goes double if we're engaged in a foreign conflict.
I don't mean to malign the military. Their job is to fight, and they do it better than anyone. But our job as citizens of a democracy is to tell them, via our representatives, when to start and when to stop, and make sure they're pointed in the right direction. When we get "laid off" from that job by decree, it isn't America anymore. Is it.
-- E. Coli (email@example.com), October 08, 1998.
You've touched a nerve--at least one of my nerves!
It's already not America anymore!
We live in a world where a real life bad guy tries to poison an entire sea and also to set the atmosphere on fire, and our government (along with others) allows him to stay in power!
We live in a world where the President of the USA (was he really an Eagle Scout?) admits to acts that would make my boyhood scoutmaster throw up!
Every Viet Nam Vet that I've discussed the subject with agrees that we did not come back to the country that we left. . .
Did America go somewhere else? Does it still exist in another dimension? Is it gone from us forever?
I do not know the future anymore than any of you, but I believe that I will not die a happy man. . .
-- America (dead@the_wall.org), October 08, 1998.
America; RIGHT ON BRO. I was a "baby killer" myself with 275 Arc Light (B-52) ops. No, it most certainly is not "our" country.
E: I do believe you are correct in your thoughts. Hang in there.
Does it not speak volumes about "we the people" when we elect a man like Mr. Clinton to the office? Is he really the best qualified man available to us as a nation?
-- sweetolebob(La) (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 08, 1998.
This is the one subject I will risk being called a "Pollyanna" over. :-) I truly do feel - and many people I speak to comment on this - an awakening and an uprising among people, like those you will find on this forum. We HAVE been asleep, but especially the Net gives people who think alike the ability to get together, support each other, share info. Does anyone else feel that, as push is coming to shove now, that the "human spirit" will prevail and we will re-create better things out of all of this?
-- Melissa (email@example.com), October 08, 1998.
The best laid plans of mice and men ... will all be turned to dust by Y2K. This includes any planned organized takeovers, if any. Y2K will rip-roar thorough our technology based world such that whatever grandiose martial law plans are imposed will be at the level of cities and even then just until the food runs out, the water becomes undrinkable, disease becomes uncontrollable, etc.
-- Joe (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 09, 1998.
I don't think you're Pollyanna, Melissa. As long as we don't let globalists take our Constitution away, we'll have hope. I don't think we need to make "something better" - we need to reclaim what we already have. There is nothing better than the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. If we ever had any virtue to lose, it was because of this document, and the freedoms it guarantees us under law. The Constitution is supposed to be the "Supreme Law of the Land." But it's being shamelessly trampled. We all need to study the Constitution and the roots of our democracy, get active in our local, community governmen and spend time talking with our neighbors. I think we should all be armed and ready to resist tyranny; but also be aware of agents provocateurs. A heavily armed, scary, ideology-spouting "right wing militia threat" is just what they want to show on the evening news, and that's why they are provoking these groups to outrageous and fraudulent acts, depicting them as racist or religiously crazed - or trying to. Some few of them are, and those are the ones that are funded, provoked and given media coverage. People calmly and firmly insisting on their rights under the Consitution, their rights to speak, publish, assemble, worship, keep and bear arms, etc., will make a difference. If we educate ourselves and eachother. If we don't, we're lost. Be patient with your neighbors who have different religious or political beliefs, who look different, etc.; if we can agree on preserving our Constitution, that's enough for the crisis at hand. If you ever feel discouraged or insignificant in this struggle, here's something my gran used to say to me: "For want of the nail, the shoe was lost; for want of the shoe, the horse was lost; for want of the horse, the battle was lost; for want of the battle, the war was lost - and all for the want of a horseshoe nail." You are that horseshoe nail. Your decision to break out of your comfort zone and begin to change things, right where you are, can be the difference between losing or winning back constitutional democracy in America.
The U.S. is not in some other dimension, A., (though I've heard they can do that ;) ); it's been stolen by international financial interests, and is being submerged, dissolved, in a globalist, socialist agenda (the motherlode for this information is "And the Truth Shall Set You Free" by David Icke; I implore you all to buy this and read it. He's a former BBC reporter, has a few odd spiritual beliefs, but priceless research and suggestions for further reading). I used to be a globalist, and a socialist; until I found out that the power behind it is the same elite that has been manipulating our planet for generations, through many political systems. What they are implementing is called "Fabian" socialism, as opposed to revolutionary socialism: gradual, steady undermining of resistance through force and guile, rather than storming the barricades (check out the fabians involved in the roots of the globalist movement). They are not "right wing" or "left wing." Political ideologies are instruments they construct, in order to divide and manipulate nations, and sustain the rule of their bloodlines and continuity of their family traditions. They are engaged in a multi-generational project to create a world government. Most of the people they are using have a high sense of purpose, and believe they are saving mankind from war and starvation; they don't realize, or don't care, that individual liberty will be dispensed with and forgotton as soon as it's practicable to do so. These entities could care less about human freedom, dignity, or suffering. They've engineered two world wars not to create peace, but to herd humanity into the same pen, and concentrate the wealth of the world in the hands of a few. They are "socialist" on the surface, and oligarchs underneath. This quote sums up what's happening at this stage in the game:
"Divide the world into regional groups as a transitional stage to world government. Populations will more readily abandon their national loyalties to a vague regional loyalty than they will for a world authority. Later, the regionals can be brought all the way into a single world dictatorship." -Joseph Stalin, "Marxism and the National Question" 1942
This is what the North American "trade block" plan is all about. It will follow the same pattern as the European Union, which is now out of the control of it's hostage member-states. This is what Hitler wanted, what his fight was all about; is it coincidence that he was funded by the same international banking families that are behind the E.U.? This is just one thread in a very rich tapestry. Doubtful? Check it out.
The internet is a real thorn in the side of this whole plan, that's one reason why I don't expect everthing to be allowed back on line the way it was before Y2k. They don't want people with "dangerous ideas" networking, and they want to make profoundly unconstitutional regional trade and investment deals -like GATT, and the MAI- without public scrutiny or discussion. Expect more "scandal" and noise, less news - until they shut it all down.
-- E. Coli (email@example.com), October 09, 1998.
Fascinating stuff, E, simply fascinating. I've heard the term "Fabian" socialist once or twice before, but don't know anything about it, and would be interested in finding out more. Is that what the "Truth Shall Set You Free" is about? If not, got any links or publications handy that tell more?
I'm not convinced, however, that a little more socialism is NECESSARILY a bad thing. But, like anything, it shouldn't be forced. I do believe that it is in peoples' own enlighted self-interest to make sure that their neighbors, whether friends or strangers, are, you know, doin' alright. I used to live in two american urban communes, not unlike the kibbutzim, or Gurdjieff groups, and I do believe that people, especially in this country, are too isolated from each other.
I do think that the global corporate/government state is on its way, and even though I'm sure it will be sugar-coated for our consumption, I don't think it will be a pretty sight...
-- pshannon (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 09, 1998.
Icke's book covers a lot of ground. It's a synthesis of (Clinton mentor, mentioned in his inagural address) Carrol Quigly (author of "Tragedy and Hope") and many, many other sources of credible information, and updates dealing with recent events, presidencies... I've found it invaluable. This is the book that brought it all together for me, and helped me make an ethical choice about how to live with the truth. I don't believe everything he's written; but I've verified enough of it, to my satisfaction, that it's significant to me.
About socialism: it's collectivism, the hive-ideal. This serves the needs of the aristocratic/banking elites. Socialism isn't their ideology; it's a means to an end. It's important to remember that they accomplish their ends by funding conflicting political and social movements, foundations, industries... At a certain point, the very extremity of opposing views (with the manipulation of the media) can become a stimulus to mass acceptance of a pre-planned "compromise." Socialism is the control of all economic activity and wealth by the State. As long as the State is controlled by the progeny of the ruling elites, they're "socialists." This is going to suprise a lot of idealistic, trusting peace&love globalists being used by them - when the noose is finally tightened. Icke shows how they've worked through history: "by their fruits you will know them." They aren't nice people.
In this vein, you might want to read Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent" too; you can rent the documentary of the same title. How they get us to choose -freely- which hoop to jump through. Not the whole picture, but helpful.
Just start looking under the rug - the help isn't what it used to be!
-- E. Coli (email@example.com), October 09, 1998.
great thread evrybodeee. Hey pshannon, could you please find the article about the richest families that you refer to? Would be much 'preciated. I've thought for a while that families of ultra-rich people would be the seat of power in this corrupt civilization, not the individual billionaires and certainly not the government. Apparently DuPont clan have half a trillion between them, and those five arrows boys must have stashed a little under their mattresses over the centuries. Red shield appeal? On the question of martial law, hmmmmm. Glad I'm not in the USA. Though it'll happen here too no doubt.
-- The Well-groomed man (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 09, 1998.
Does anyone have a link to get information on what the British government is actually doing along these lines? I have read and heard much second-hand commentary, but found no reliable reports. Would appreciate any reliable source.
-- Sara Nealy (email@example.com), October 10, 1998.
In college I had a class where we discussed and read about the semi-invisible class/caste societal structure in the US and the world....was a real eye-opener...about the 1%...the controlling elite...not the fake elite we think we know about ...The Kennedy dynasty...about the constant hum of propaganda to keep us all buying all the old fairytale about "being free". I suppose if you did a web search on "power elite"...you could come up with some interesting information.
-- Donna Barthuley (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 10, 1998.
As per Donna's suggestion, I just did a quick search on "power elite." Here are a few of the chestnuts I came up with:
Global Elites Research Project URL: http://tcs.ntu.ac.uk/level2/ elites.html Summary: THE CHARACTER OF GLOBAL ELITES AT THE END OF THE 20th CENTURY The Global Elites project will run for three years. It seeks to examine the global restructuring of power between the higher echelons, the middle and the workers. (this site actually doesn't say much, but it came up first)
The Unabomber's Manifesto URL: http://www.panix.com/~clays/Una/ index.html I read this when it first came out. While I ABSOLUTELY believe the guy is a nut job, and TOTALLY disagree with his use of violence to get his message out there, I think his research and conclusions are basically on the mark.
"The Secret Government" by Derek Wilson URL: http:// www.converge.org.nz/pirm/elite.htm He talks about the Rothscilds and the "Brotherhood Network," JP Morgan, The Rockefellers, Federal Reserve, Bretton Woods, etc.
Articles, Essays and Speeches, by Patrick J. Buchanan URL: http:// www.iac.net/~davcam/survive.html Summary: Who owns America? Who controls the real levers of power? In the wake of recent events it seems a pertinent question. Consider: During the debate on merging the U.S. and Mexico in an economic union called NAFTA, a surge of patriotic and nationalist protest arose. (he goes on to blame the "Manhattan Money Power", only mentioning Goldman Sachs by name)
Re: Y2K = 666 ????? URL: http://reach.ucf.edu/~reach/wwwboard/data/ enc4932-2/messages/625.html Summary: Posted by OMEGaMaN on August 06, 1998 at 20:20:29: : YOU dont think there's gonna be a problem? : The Power co. has over 6,000 elements that can bring : down a power grid. : On C-Span they held a cabenet meeting on the Y2K, : And they all basically said the public will be : screwed. (coulda been posted here)
And of course the always amusing:
Cult of the Dead Cow URL: http://l0pht.com/cdc.html Summary: Warning: "This site may contain explicit descriptions of, or may advocate one or more of the following: nudity, satanism, suicide, sodomy, incest, bestiality, sadomasochism, adultery, murder, morbid violence, bad grammar, or any deviate sexual conduct in a violent context, or the use of illegal drugs or alcohol. But then again, it may not. Who knows?"
Still can't find the U.N.study I cited above. Saw it orginally through a link somewhere else. The U.N. site itself is truly daunting. I may actually have a copy on a drive at work. I'll find it...
-- pshannon (email@example.com), October 10, 1998.
For the past several months elements of the Marines have conducted simulated night exercises in sever cities such as Jacksonville, with the latest being in Greensboro NC. Their regular forces and reserves have also increased the CQC training (close Quarter Combat) for urban warfare. These missions being held over populated areas with numerious types of helicopters and live explosives are not due to the brass tired of the same ol military bases to train on. Also the Marines are not subject to the posse comentadus laws and were the subjects quized at the 29 palms marine base to determine if they were ordered, would they fire on US citizens. Several reports have attributed this increase and type of training to the expectations of civil distrubances dur to y2k. just some food for thought. (no pun intended)
-- i.b. concerned (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 10, 1998.
Wow. Welcome to Conspiracy Central.
I bet most of these guys, civ and mil alike, will take their neat new toys and skills and go home to Mamma and the babies if things turn really sour (especially if the riot moves into the home neighborhood). I have heard a few of them say so and they didn't seem to be joking. When the humvee shows up in the neighborhood it might just be your Reservist/Guardsman neighbor comin' home.
When the unpleasantness at the end of Marcos' reign in the Philippines was warming up a lot of the rich and famous bought helicopters and hired pilots so they could wing (rotor?) away from the impending trouble. Trouble was that when things got interesting the pilots had loaded up family and friends and wopwopped outta there, and were nowhere to be found. Get the idea?
Yes, there are truly interesting things happening these days. The cards for martial law are in the deck and may get dealt. Everybody and his sister wants to be a kicker and a shooter. But it will only exacerbate a bad situation if the uniforms pick on otherwise upstanding folk who already have enough to worry about. Don't be in a major city, and behave yourself appropriate to the circumstances (that is, don't be part of the problem) and you won't likely have a problem.
If you as an upstanding citizen are defined as part of the problem, then you need to fix that by sorting out whoever misdefines problems in such a fashion. This November, at your local polling place, would be a good time and place to work on that. If it's not too late... .
-- nemo (email@example.com), October 10, 1998.
I really think it's been too late for a great many years....but my voice sings in a very small choir....so pay it no mind.
-- Donna Barthuley (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 10, 1998.
There's a good read on Holly Deo's site, at
In this particular article, Holly asked Lynn Shaffer to assess the EO material. Lynn's brief conclusions, as an attorney, show up on these pages.
A couple of quotes:
Regarding FEMA: "What once was a federal agency formed under President Carter to respond to domestic disasters has turned into a Darth Vader kind of empire."
Regarding her conclusions: ".....I do not believe I could ever look another patriot-conspiracy theory-militia proponent in the face again and call him crazy. We're the ones that are crazy for not paying close attention."
Check out Holly's site.
-- rocky knolls (email@example.com), October 10, 1998.
Thanks, rocky! Gives pause...or if you are a cat, paws. Headed there now.
-- Donna Barthuley (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 10, 1998.
Interesting reading - all the positions. But regardless of the structure that may or may not remain, it will require the ability of the general population to continue about it's business in a fairly normal manner. If there are no consumers for the producers and no flow of "money" (your choice of concept), then the wheel just about stops. I would anticipate a fairly rapid spiral down to a subsistance level.
The ability of mil/pol control is limited by power (our world requires it) and on communications. IF (and this is a big if) the Leonids are anywhere a strong as they are anticipated, then most of the commo for EVERYONE is going down.
I suspect good 'old Mother Nature may have the last laugh, since she tends to throw good blindsided punches...
Hopefull not too out-of-topic.
-- j (email@example.com), October 10, 1998.
Hopefully, the U.S. military establishment has enough sense to realize that martial law will prove about as effective as Prohibition did.
200 full-time FBI agents and 'Bo Gritz himself' with his 'crack troops' can't even catch one lil' ol' NC mountain boy named Eric Rudolph.
If the Feds call for martial law, every crackpot militia movement in the country (and the Klan and the skinheads and who knows who else) will mobilize like no one's business and it will be blood in the streets (and woods) real quick, and the Pentagon knows it. Do they really want that?
Then there's always the issue of true patriots rising up against despotism....remember what we learned in history class about when a ragtag bunch of American colonists rose up and beat the stuffins out of the world's mightiest military power?
If this were Japan, where there are very few guns, martial law might be a viable option. But this is the U.S. of A., where guns are plentiful, as are those who know how to use them, and who aren't afraid to do so. Not just the military. Hope the Pentagon guys take that into account, and I'm sure they are.
-- John Howard (Greenville, NC) (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 11, 1998.
Knowledge is power, and spreading the word spreads power among us, you and me and our families, neighbors and friends. 'The enter key is mightier than the sword'...
-- Karen Cook (email@example.com), October 12, 1998.
Couldn't sleep, got up a 3am and started reading the discussion. One week ago my wife and I learned about y2k and its implications. I'm a retired engineer and both my wife and I feel that we keep up one things. If it took us this long to get it, I feel for the rest of the country. We used to live in Marin county in California. We had a real nice little flood in' '82 which effectively shut the county down for three days. This county is totally liberal, rich, affluent, agnostic, and arrogant. The stores were swept clean, totally clean in one day. There was literally fighting between those beautiful liberal Marin dames over powdered milk. Do not kid yourself!!! That thin veneer of civilization is three days thin. It will be everyman for himself. We're building a 160 acre ranch, off the grid, isolated yet close. We'll be well stocked and, now that we are aware of what's coming, even better armed. One thing nam taught some of us is situational awareness, and brother, we got it. Question??? Do city folks have any idea how many guns and rifles are in the hands of nice farmers and ranchers?? Folk who really know what they can do with them and won't hesitate. B.
-- Blair McIntire (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 13, 1998.
Thanks for bringing up the fact about farmers and ranchers havign guns and being willing to use them. We country folk were hoping no one would notice that. Around my parts of the Midwest the cops look at you funny if you DON'T have at least one gun in your car.
-- Rick Tansun (email@example.com), October 14, 1998.
This is an excellent thread. One of the most exciting and beneficial things I think Y2k has created is an opportunity to step outside our miopic, everyday life and take a look at reality.
Blair, you wrote "That thin veneer of civilization". That is the most prolific and concise argument as to why the 'powers that be' will envoke Martial Law.
If you consider that one of the reasons why lawlessness is kept in check day to day is because people live their lives in a lawful manner. There is no reason for the majority of people to rebel. The majority, no matter what their economic place within, work, buy food, buy clothing, have a means of escape in the from of sports, television, film, art, etc. There's the rub. We THINK we're self sufficient. It's smoke and mirrors.
There are not enough police in a country of nearly 300 million. The police are the minority. The police are an illusion of control. They keep order because the majority are in order already. What happens when "that thin veneer of civilization' degrades? Fear, panic, anger, disorder.
Guess if people don't start finding out about what wicked events are ahead then the only reaction they will be left with is to protect the survival of themselves and their families.
This is not a new story. History provides a lot of insight. Remember, we are just doomed to keep making the same mistakes over and over again because we haven't learned from what history has taught us. : ) ___________________________________________________
-- Michael Taylor (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 14, 1998.